Also... Logic in the Real World DOES demand that you NEVER approach anything from an emotional state of mind or use emotions or "gut feelings" as evidence to support a claim. Emotions are illogical in most cases due to being simple built in mechanisms designed to help us coexist or survive. So if you were a purely logical being you would not have emotional responses to anything. This means you would have a VERY hard time choosing between a lot of things and making a lot of decisions which ultimately have no real superiority logically than the other choice. This is proven by those few humans who have a disorder which actually makes them almost purely logical and it is not that easy to live that way.
However, I do agree and it is blatantly put forth in various Star Trek series that for the Vulcans their "Logic" is a "Way of Life" and Spiritual rather than simply the Logic we would talk about to describe normal day-to-day thinking processes.
Yeah, but see, there's a difference between clinical disinterest and avoiding the fallacy of appeal to passion (among other emotion-based fallacies) on the one hand, and personal suppression and social repression of emotion on the other.
We've been through this repeatedly in this forum. Go back to TOS and learn what the Romulans were before the Tal'Shiar of TNG. Go to DS9, VOY, even ENT. The Tal'Shiar of TNG are the anomaly.
I'd take it one step farther and say that it is the Tal'Shiar itself that is anomalous in terms of behaviour.
Wait, wait. You're mistaken there. The Enterprise entered the Neutral Zone and even Romulan territory. Until later in the episode, it's not even certain that Kirk is still sane; he's taken his ship into neutral territory and then into "cold war" enemy territory in a blatant display of treaty violation designed to provoke a response, and the crew is not entirely comfortable with this. The Romulans played no games within the Neutral Zone in this episode. Starfleet ordered an espionage mission in violation of the treaty between the Federation and the RSE. The Romulan Commander's response? Surround the ship and disable it, then investigate before taking action, and then offer amnesty to the crew, holding Kirk alone responsible. These are clearly not the actions of someone blinded by passions, as Vulcan propaganda would have it, nor someone being aggressive, as you've suggested. The aggression in this episode was all Starfleet, not the Romulans. I think you knew this, else you would have said more about this episode than the brief and misleading comments that you did make.
Just walking through the progression:
Nasty Romulan/Federation war with no prisoners. Settles to an established neutral border that neither side is to cross. Decades later a warbird, noted as the 'flagship of the praetor' is ordered across to pummel the listening stations as a test of the Federation's strength. Ship deals massive damage to those border forts as noted by the coded transmission from the warbird. (side note: I think Decius should have been shot for that. It is like making a cellphone call from a submarine. Gives your position away when you're supposed to be hidden.) Shortly after that transmission the warbird is lost. Logically, the military command will think the old bases are susceptible. But like themselves, the Federation has weapons to match. Since they are not weaker, we will ignore them for now. (This logic taken from said warbird captain saying that the proof of weakness will mean another attack and another war. It implies that a lack of weakness turns the attention.) Now a few years later a Federation starship charges into the territory lead by a madman. These are not weak people. We can offer some respect to them and perhaps trade them back to their home. Their ship however will be a fine prize to examine and see how strong they truly are.
After all knowledge is power too. Except it was a ruse to steal secrets from our vessels. The warship takes our cloaking device and runs home with it.
Sounds like two nations to me. Each playing the back stabber role as they see the need.
Though if that mission came up in STO people would claim it should be a section 31 mission.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Few people are ever peace-loving diplomats, no matter their external pretensions. You know well the point that was being made in both statements, but your sympathies actuate an attempt to engage me in rhetorical blather again. "All Roms should be bellicose because that's how TNG portrays them." "Sed contra, puer, TNG Roms are the exception, not the rule." That's the translation of both statements for you.
Tos:Romulans cross the Neutral zone in an attempt to judge if the federation is weak and if so it was to be conquered.
"If we are not the strong is not this the signal for war.""Must it always be so?" Notice the use of always indicating this is common practice.
Ent:Romulans preemptively strike at the coalition of powers (later to be federation of planets) in an attempt to turn possible enemies against each other.
Star Trek 6: Romulan Ambassador is a conspirator in chancellor's assassination in attempt to destroy peace talks. Oh look another preemptive attack designed to turn the Romulans enemies against one another I'm starting to seeing a trend here.
Voy:Romulans infiltrate federation space and kill the crew of the Prometheus in attempt to steal it's advanced technology.
DS9: Tal'shiar preemptively strike at the founders. Granted in this case it's just the Tal'shiar but you don't seriously believe Romulan command had no knowledge of this.
Post Tal'shiar Romulans arm a hospital on a Bajoran moon. Possible foot hold for later conquest when the Dominion is dealt with? Quite possibly.
Oh my Romulans in every series preemptively attacking , but this can't be , they're clearly only sneaky warmongers in the TNG series./sarcasm:rolleyes:
Take off the Tal'Shiar blinders and look at the shows honestly.
You might look in the mirror and realize you're the one with the TNG blinders on.;)
Ironically it's the TNG episodes that started this whole freedom fighter vs the oppressive Romulan government theme. Not that the Tal'shiar appeared to be the instigators of said policy anyways merely the enforcers of the oppressive government.
DS9: Tal'shiar preemptively strike at the founders. Granted in this case it's just the Tal'shiar but you don't seriously believe Romulan command had no knowledge of this.
Fact check: The plan came from the retired head of the Obsidian Order, the Cardassian intelligence branch. Further the contact in the Tal Sh'iar was a founder that egged them on to lead them into a trap.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Fact check: The plan came from the retired head of the Obsidian Order, the Cardassian intelligence branch. Further the contact in the Tal Sh'iar was a founder that egged them on to lead them into a trap.
I believe Tain said "our plan is" not "my plan is" which suggests that both sides played a part in it's development. It only stands to reason both sides were considering an attack on the founders.
Also yes they were convinced into doing it by the changeling but the plan was already in motion as the changeling had said he was just making sure no one got cold feet and backed out.
Tos:Romulans cross the Neutral zone in an attempt to judge if the federation is weak and if so it was to be conquered.
"If we are not the strong is not this the signal for war.""Must it always be so?" Notice the use of always indicating this is common practice.
Ent:Romulans preemptively strike at the coalition of powers (later to be federation of planets) in an attempt to turn possible enemies against each other.
Star Trek 6: Romulan Ambassador is a conspirator in chancellor's assassination in attempt to destroy peace talks. Oh look another preemptive attack designed to turn the Romulans enemies against one another I'm starting to seeing a trend here.
Voy:Romulans infiltrate federation space and kill the crew of the Prometheus in attempt to steal it's advanced technology.
DS9: Tal'shiar preemptively strike at the founders. Granted in this case it's just the Tal'shiar but you don't seriously believe Romulan command had no knowledge of this.
Post Tal'shiar Romulans arm a hospital on a Bajoran moon. Possible foot hold for later conquest when the Dominion is dealt with? Quite possibly.
Oh my Romulans in every series preemptively attacking , but this can't be , they're clearly only sneaky warmongers in the TNG series./sarcasm:rolleyes:
You might look in the mirror and realize you're the one with the TNG blinders on.;)
Ironically it's the TNG episodes that started this whole freedom fighter vs the oppressive Romulan government theme. Not that the Tal'shiar appeared to be the instigators of said policy anyways merely the enforcers of the oppressive government.
On the contrary, I stated what happened in "Balance of Terror" quite accurately. You have chosen to ignore anything in that episode which does not support your claim. You also totally ignored "The Enterprise Incident." You've stated repeatedly what you would like; the trouble is, that's not how things were.
Pro tip: this is not a debate, wherein you might be able to awe an audience by attempts to obfuscate, use of fallacy, omission of facts, etc. We are interested in getting at the truth, rather than winning a rhetorical game.
On the contrary, I stated what happened in "Balance of Terror" quite accurately. You have chosen to ignore anything in that episode which does not support your claim. You also totally ignored "The Enterprise Incident." You've stated repeatedly what you would like; the trouble is, that's not how things were.
I was replying to your response to concept6 where he was trying to say the Romulans aren't portrayed as they were in the shows. You basically said you don't know anything about Romulans go watch the shows which I felt was an unfair assessment. Granted there are some exceptions to Romulan Warmongering but it's not some random blip on the screen it's a continuing theme we see again and again.
Pro tip: this is not a debate, wherein you might be able to awe an audience by attempts to obfuscate, use of fallacy, omission of facts, etc. We are interested in getting at the truth, rather than winning a rhetorical game.
Tsk tsk accusation accusations , you said yourself you didn't want to engage in rhetorical blather. I choose to stick to the point rather than explore every facet of the Romulan psyche. Now you accuse me of attempting to obscure the truth for not wanting to turn this into an endless debate that's not very mature.
I believe Tain said "our plan is" not "my plan is" which suggests that both sides played a part in it's development. It only stands to reason both sides were considering an attack on the founders.
Also yes they were convinced into doing it by the changeling but the plan was already in motion as the changeling had said he was just making sure no one got cold feet and backed out.
And when the trap was sprung and Garak was freeing Odo the changling that came to also free Odo mentioned it was Tain's plan. They just let him believe it was a good one.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You might look in the mirror and realize you're the one with the TNG blinders on.;)
wow someone else said it. Ive been thinking this for a while... proto has a lot of good info and rocks for romulan RP but seems hell bent to crusade against anyone and everyone that doesnt share his exact vision of the RSE. Even when canon sources are quoted he deflects, dismisses, and twists so that his opinion is the only possible conclusion
wow someone else said it. Ive been thinking this for a while... proto has a lot of good info and rocks for romulan RP but seems hell bent to crusade against anyone and everyone that doesnt share his exact vision of the RSE. Even when canon sources are quoted he deflects, dismisses, and twists so that his opinion is the only possible conclusion
I'm a she, thanks (I don't think this is news to anyone who's paid attention to my past posts; while I don't belabor the point, I have mentioned it at least twice in posts I have made here in the past). Women play MMOs too.
And on the contrary, I've pointed out several times exactly many of the things that were said about "Balance of Terror." I admit that "Balance of Terror" was an act of aggression instigated by the Romulan Star Empire. I've never denied that. Portraying the Romulans in that episode as gung-ho militarists, however, is rather blinkered.
Ignoring everything that doesn't support the skewed idea of Romulans-as-warmongering-bad-guys is exactly what I saw in vonhellsting's post, and which I believe I pointed out rather deftly. "The Enterprise Incident," an episode which demonstrates very clearly that this notion of Romulans as villains is a generalization based on a handful of (primarily TNG) episodes, was ignored entirely in that post in an effort to promote the very view it contradicts.
I am not the only person who has pointed out this misapprehension of the Romulan psyche, and given evidence in support of a more accurate understanding, but those who grew up on TNG seem unable or unwilling to accept this evidence, purposefully omitting any reference which doesn't support their assertions.
Some have even stated, kodachikuno, in the face of compelling canonical evidence, that they prefer this and/or that non-canonical source (after having previously having attempted to instruct me that I should check the canon references, with which I am very familiar, and which I subsequently provided in support of what I had said) -- a ploy sometimes referred to as "moving the goalposts." :rolleyes: Please, don't try Rhetoric on me. I will call you on it every time. I'm not interested in debate (Rhetoric); I'm interested in the truth (Logic, and no, I do not mean the Vulcan mystical and anti-emotional glorification of empiricism as worldview).
And with reference to the truth:
Yes, there are inconsistencies in the official material (from the movies and various series). We all know this; it should come as no surprise to anyone who's familiar with the various series and movies. However, there's also a generally-accepted current of ideas which are strongly supported by numerous official references and facts (rather than one or two continuity errors here or there which can be seized upon by those with an axe to grind in favor of whatever their sacred cow may be) -- it is this generally accepted current of ideas which is hard canon, not every word muttered in every episode of every official series and every official movie.
In the Original Series the Romulans are a Proud Warrior Race - or Space Romans (with home planets named Romulus and Remus) - but TNG and Deep Space Nine had an alternate interpretation: they are all intrigue all the time.
Protogoth is arguing for either the original hat, or an actual multilayered culture of individuals, while much of the counterargument seems to be in favor of the other hat.
One thing I have noticed is if I change it so my armor and kit is visible I can only see my kit and never my armor. I am using the Romulan survivor uniform so maybe its a bug with that uni but it is a bit annoying as I like to "wear" my armor when doing STF's like Defera..
I think part of the problem might be a Planet of Hats syndrome. To quote from the article itself:
Protogoth is arguing for either the original hat, or an actual multilayered culture of individuals, while much of the counterargument seems to be in favor of the other hat.
Do not blaspheme sir!
You know all races have but one facet to a culture. And all worlds but one climate each!
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I think part of the problem might be a Planet of Hats syndrome. To quote from the article itself:
Protogoth is arguing for either the original hat, or an actual multilayered culture of individuals, while much of the counterargument seems to be in favor of the other hat.
My personal preference is the original hat, but the reality is that Romulan society is not all one monolithic perspective, and that the Tal'Shiar represent a departure (and a somewhat radical one at that) from the original presentation.
And when the trap was sprung and Garak was freeing Odo the changling that came to also free Odo mentioned it was Tain's plan. They just let him believe it was a good one.
Hmm I'll have to watch that episode again if I can find it been a while since I've seen it. Though regardless of who's plan it was my point was still stands that Romulans were aggressors in that episode.;)
Ignoring everything that doesn't support the skewed idea of Romulans-as-warmongering-bad-guys is exactly what I saw in vonhellsting's post, and which I believe I pointed out rather deftly. "The Enterprise Incident," an episode which demonstrates very clearly that this notion of Romulans as villains is a generalization based on a handful of (primarily TNG) episodes, was ignored entirely in that post in an effort to promote the very view it contradicts.
I fail to see how presenting your one episode of non Romulan violence overrides the other episode of clearly an aggressive warlike race. The Romulans didn't leave Vulcan because they were peace loving pacifist it was a brutal civil war.:rolleyes:
I am not the only person who has pointed out this misapprehension of the Romulan psyche, and given evidence in support of a more accurate understanding, but those who grew up on TNG seem unable or unwilling to accept this evidence, purposefully omitting any reference which doesn't support their assertions.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Romulans are capable of compassion that's been shown on numerous occasions. I might add quite a few of which were TNG episodes but that does not distract from the fact that they are often portrayed as an aggressive warlike culture. Romulans for all intents and purposes are basically Romans in space. Was Roman culture evil? No , they were cruel at times but they also brought culture and art to the world they had many facets. Though most of us would agree Rome would lose a lot of it's appeal if you were playing a game and they took out the Roman Empire and the intrigue of the senate and made them a bunch of statue builders.
It's this dissection of the Romulan people that is offending a great deal of Romulan fans. They've taken a diverse culture dissected off the parts they didn't like to the point that we have a one dimensional organization. They've dumbed them down to baby terms all Tal'shiar/Empire bad , all republic good.
I fail to see how presenting your one episode of non Romulan violence overrides the other episode of clearly an aggressive warlike race. The Romulans didn't leave Vulcan because they were peace loving pacifist it was a brutal civil war.:rolleyes:
Without going outside hard canon, there is precious little information on what exactly caused The Sundering, but even the Vulcans admit that they themselves entered into a radical new lifestyle and state that the Romulan forebears chose to leave. Converts are often rather ... zealous, and intolerant. To this day (i.e., 2409) we can still observe condescension and bias on the part of the Vulcans toward, essentially, everyone else (and sometimes even toward other Vulcans). If the followers of Surak were unwilling to tolerate dissension from their new "and improved" worldview (as seems very probable given similar developments in the real world on Earth), would it have been more bellicose for the Romulan forebears to stay and continue to fight them, or to leave them to their choice -- and its consequences? Seems to me rather the opposite is more likely, that the Vulcans were the aggressors intent on forcing everyone to convert to their new religion or die (and then later covered that up with revisionist history in a pretense that subsequently became believed even by their own descendants to such an extent that they embraced the false pacifism whitewash given to what really happened), and the Romulans could have easily stayed and fought if they were as aggressive as Vulcan propaganda pretends. Instead, however, we are told that they chose to leave rather than stay and conform or stay and "kill or be killed" by their misguided kindred (notice that I have presented three options which would have been available to them, not merely two, and there may have been still more options which did not occur to me as I was preparing this post).
Keras clearly had no stomach for the aggressive mission on which he was sent in "Balance of Terror," and he was not the only Romulan in that episode who expressed that sentiment. But not only did you ignore "The Enterprise Incident" entirely, you also blatantly disregarded the central message of "Balance of Terror" (which is, essentially, that "we," Romulans and Humans, are not that different) in an effort to paint the Romulans into the corner you seemed to have wanted them in. Politicians ordered that mission; the active military personnel who were directly involved were not terribly keen on it (which is not unheard of in Earth history, either), with the exception of one green-behind-the-ears, foolhardy, ambitious, and somewhat thick youth (whose actions doomed the entire crew, mind).
Romulans are not any more pacifistic than they are aggressive, and the reverse is also true. Do they have a warrior culture? Yes, that's kind of de rigueur for an imperialistic society, but that doesn't necessitate that they be stupid -- or incapable of preferring peaceful (if occasionally a strained peace) separatism (as resulted in The Sundering, and as was the result of the treaty that established the Romulan Neutral Zone).
Romulans are also not illogical (at least, not any more so than any other culture, Vulcans included -- and I'm not saying "illogical" in the Vulcan sense, but in the sense of the real world, academic discipline of Logic). They are simply not unemotional. In reference to this, Di'on Charvon herself states (and look, oh my, she even refers to the warrior culture of Romulans here): "Romulan women are not like Vulcan females. We're not dedicated to pure logic and the sterility of non-emotion. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things." Any society that consists of nothing but warriors is impossible. There must be other "castes" within a society or it cannot survive, let alone spread across multiple planets in multiple systems. She says they are "often savage," not that they are constantly savage (and her ability to recognize and admit that savagery is not uncommon among her people is in itself a rather telling fact), and quickly points out that savagery is not the only characteristic of Romulans, but instead affirms that Romulans "are also many other pleasant things."
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Romulans are capable of compassion that's been shown on numerous occasions. I might add quite a few of which were TNG episodes but that does not distract from the fact that they are often portrayed as an aggressive warlike culture. Romulans for all intents and purposes are basically Romans in space. Was Roman culture evil? No , they were cruel at times but they also brought culture and art to the world they had many facets. Though most of us would agree Rome would lose a lot of it's appeal if you were playing a game and they took out the Roman Empire and the intrigue of the senate and made them a bunch of statue builders.
Foolhardiness and indiscriminate violence are not virtues even for a warrior culture. You have seemed, in multiple posts, to promote the idea that, in order to be a warrior culture, the Romulans must embrace such nonsensical concepts. Again, Romulans are not illogical. And again, I'm using the term in the real world sense, not the Vulcan sense; generally speaking, if I'm not speaking/posting In-Character as a Vulcan (and I do have a Vulcan toon and an Orion toon, as well as a Romulan toon), I will distinguish Vulcan "Logic" by calling it (as I just did) "Vulcan 'Logic'," and not merely "Logic." The same applies to my use of "logical" and "illogical" -- if I mean "logical in the Vulcan sense" (and am not IC as a Vulcan), then I'm going to almost invariably say "logical in the Vulcan sense" and likewise with "illogical in the Vulcan sense" (although "illogical" in real world terms is also "illogical in the Vulcan sense," theoretically). I do this redundantly in the hope that nobody will misunderstand my intention (as well as to point out that real world Logic is both less and more than Vulcan "Logic").
I'll also digress a bit further to point out that Romans did not bring culture and art to anyone. All of the peoples they conquered had their own cultures and art. The Romans brought Romanitas (that is, Roman culture, art, Latin language, -- in short, Roman worldview) to other cultures and imposed it to the best of their ability, while occasionally tolerating some marginalized status for the native worldview and its expressions. Even now in 2013, I can honestly state "Legere Latinem possum," because Romanitas is still considered (in the West, at least) to be more "valuable" than the cultures of other peoples. This is cultural imperialism, not any sort of "enlightenment." Sure enough, it can broaden a person's perspective, but to say that the Romans brought culture and art to other peoples is just ... well, offensive. And that little rabbit chase ending in that word "offensive" takes us on to the next bit of your post to which I would like to reply.
It's this dissection of the Romulan people that is offending a great deal of Romulan fans. They've taken a diverse culture dissected off the parts they didn't like to the point that we have a one dimensional organization. They've dumbed them down to baby terms all Tal'shiar/Empire bad , all republic good.
Comrade, I'm a Romulan fan. I've been a Romulan fan since the very first airing of the two TOS episodes that featured Romulans (and yes, I'm hinting at my age by this admission). As a little girl, I wanted to be Di'on Charvon and seduce Spock just as she attempted to do (with more success than she realized till she and Spock had their final private conversation of the episode in the turbolift of the Enterprise). But here's the rub, as johnsills pointed out, quoting from the TV Tropes wiki site:
In the Original Series the Romulans are a Proud Warrior Race - or Space Romans (with home planets named Romulus and Remus) - but TNG and Deep Space Nine had an alternate interpretation: they are all intrigue all the time.
and as I've stated many times, TNG (and to a lesser extent, DS9) recast the Romulans as something that was not part of their original depiction. Yes, "Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident" are both stories of espionage and intrigue, but neither of them portrays Romulans as paranoid fascists who tolerate no dissension, whereas TNG does just that, with but few exceptions.
But to your representation of the STO Tal'Shiar/Empire as "all bad" and the New Republic as "all good," I really don't see that.
Let's take the Tal'Shiar/Empire first:
Janek is certainly not a one-dimensional, nor villainous personality, yet she is a Tal'Shiar Commander. Taris claims to have been duped into something she claims to have had no idea would result (and her claims seem quite credible, to me at least). Even Charva is obviously more brainwashed victim than villain. It is Hakeev (and his mindless sycophants who appear to form the overwhelming majority of the Tal'Shiar rank-and-file) who is (are) presented as consistent with the TNG paranoid police state fascist Tal'Shiar.
And the New Republic next:
Putting the shoe on the other foot, we see the complexities of Obisek and his search for (and success in obtaining) thalaron weapons (which then subsequently become standard equipment on some of the vessels of the New Republic), weapons which nobody else wants to admit having (but do you really believe that Section 31 doesn't have a fairly large stockpile or three of such weapons?), apparently with D'Tan's full knowledge and approval. If I thought about it a bit longer and looked around at mission dialogues, I could probably come up with more examples, but those two individuals right there are rather important personages in the New Republic.
This is nowhere nearly as dumbed-down or one-dimensional as you have suggested, on either side.
Comrade, I'm a Romulan fan. I've been a Romulan fan since the very first airing of the two TOS episodes that featured Romulans (and yes, I'm hinting at my age by this admission). As a little girl, I wanted to be Di'on Charvon and seduce Spock just as she attempted to do (with more success than she realized till she and Spock had their final private conversation of the episode in the turbolift of the Enterprise). But here's the rub, as johnsills pointed out, quoting from the TV Tropes wiki site:
I had suspected Di'on was your childhood role model by your emotional reactions but now you've confirmed my suspicions. Clearly you're unable to accept anything that might taint this image of your hero. You've unintentionally blinded yourself but you can't see this because you are blind to anything that would destroy the image of your childhood idol. I will not carry on this conversation since I know you will hear but not listen. Perhaps in time you might be able to see things clearer.
I'm a she, thanks (I don't think this is news to anyone who's paid attention to my past posts; while I don't belabor the point, I have mentioned it at least twice in posts I have made here in the past). Women play MMOs too.
Some have even stated, kodachikuno, in the face of compelling canonical evidence, that they prefer this and/or that non-canonical source (after having previously having attempted to instruct me that I should check the canon references, with which I am very familiar, and which I subsequently provided in support of what I had said)
I apologize for mis-labelling your gender, I dont really pay attention to gender on forums at all or generally in any text based format since its pointless. Women play mmos too sure, never said they didnt, but for every female playing mmos there are 1000 men playing female characters with female names and prolly 100 that are actively pretending they are female. So I just default to using male on everyone. Ill try to remember you're an exception to that. BTW I grew up on the original series, absorbed the hell outta every bit of lore or blueprint or whatever right through the movie era. Then barely stomached the TNG era, which began to get tolerable at the end which DS9 improved upon more but it was never the same or as good. What you call canon, and what I call canon have proven to, at times, be different. Call it what you will I dont care tbh. But you go around railing and lecturing and hell bent on making everyone accept your opinion of Romulans and ANY dissent or differing opinon is cause for another lecture. You're blinders are just as thick as anyone else's and your mind just as closed to change as those you rail against.
Your insights are always interesting and you dig up often hard to find bits. But other people are allowed other opinions. You might also look into some of those sources you find 'non-canon'. You might be pleasantly surprised by what you find there. My experiences with the FASA material pretty much propagated the 'Space Romans' of the ToS
It's this dissection of the Romulan people that is offending a great deal of Romulan fans. They've taken a diverse culture dissected off the parts they didn't like to the point that we have a one dimensional organization. They've dumbed them down to baby terms all Tal'shiar/Empire bad , all republic good.
^this, protogoth's lectures aside this basically distills it down to the cold hard truth of what STO did
'm finding pieces of ech side to be agreeable and pieces to be disagreeable. That the Romulan race has been distilled down to being nothing more than a bunch of fluffy space hippies may be in some sense true, but more importantly, the Romulan race is only recognized as the Romulan race by its members.. Go run a mission; any mission, Your federation, or klingon in every single one after the initial storyline.. Your the bread filler in the meatloaf of space.. After the last Star trek movie, i doubt we'll ever see anything that gives any depth to the series at all, let alone even approaching the depth of knowledge and understanding seen in these conversations.. I myself will always subscribe to the original Roddenberyesque Assignment of the Romulans as being Chinese, but thats not important here as none of you will concede that reality ever existed anyway and frankly, i play the game my way and could give a damn less.. I will argue however, that no matter what opinion is held that until we are no longer federation or klingon in the game, we are nothing but people buying little green ships for pointy eared characters to use.
I had suspected Di'on was your childhood role model by your emotional reactions but now you've confirmed my suspicions. Clearly you're unable to accept anything that might taint this image of your hero. You've unintentionally blinded yourself but you can't see this because you are blind to anything that would destroy the image of your childhood idol. I will not carry on this conversation since I know you will hear but not listen. Perhaps in time you might be able to see things clearer.
This is simply Abusive ad Hominem. If it were logical critique, instead of simply a rhetorical move, you would point to evidence of my alleged bias in what I've said (the points I've made, not simply my admiration for Di'on Charvon -- and you should have also noticed that I admire Keras as well). I've given you CLEAR demonstrations, from canon. I've admitted things you've contended. I've pointed out that Romulans are not any more or less pacifistic than most other cultures (and part of the problem some of you seem to have is an inability to get it through your heads that the New Republic is not a gang of "space hippies," but someone used this term a few months ago, and it was seized upon by people unwilling to come up with any valid criticism -- and oh, how I wish I could point to real-world examples of this without breaking PWE's ToS and forum/community guidelines, as they are abundant since at least the mid 1980s, but they are also almost exclusively found in the partisan political milieu, and that would be crossing a line which I won't cross).
You now seize on the first opportunity you can exaggerate into an allegation of bias in an effort to discredit my position through the use of ad Hominem fallacy of the Abusive sort, as well as to use as an excuse to "bow out" of the discussion while trying to save face, because you know that your case is weak and mine is strong. I suspect you also simply don't have the patience to read my lengthy posts and respond to the points I make. You claim to accept the multi-faceted nature of Romulan society, yet have not translated that to realization, still pushing for "Romulans are bloodthirsty savages always and forever!" I'm not the only one who has shown this perspective to be the result of TNG's revisionist portrayal of Romulans, nor am I even the most tireless in pointing this out. I've argued with Logic, you've debated with Rhetoric.
One of your comrades has blatantly engaged in moving the goalposts, and obviously has little or no understanding of the meaning of "canon" (hard, soft, or otherwise), and clearly has no interest in more serious discussion that might necessitate a modification of preconceived ideas and a slaughter of sacred cows. I'm familiar with numerous soft canon and non-canonical sources. I've made use of Diane Duane's material in my own RP. I've used both of the Orion sourcebooks from FASA (The Orions: Book of Common Knowledge and The Orions: Book of Deep Knowledge) for my Orion's biography. I still have old Star Trek comic books which I was given in the '70s. I have a small pamphlet on Vulcan language that was published in, iirc, 1977, and which was never really used by anyone connected with canon in an official capacity. The perception that I don't go outside canon is obviously mistaken.
But I'm the one with bias? Allow me to demonstrate an ethical use of Rhetoric:
Is this an episode of The Twilight Zone, rather than an online discussion forum dedicated to a game based on Star Trek? Have I somehow wandered into the Bizarro world? I mean, really.
See, I can play rhetorical games, too; the difference is that I'm not embracing the opportunism tolerated by Rhetoric which allows orators involved in debate to "get away" with fallacy as long as nobody calls them on it.
Please bear with me as I go back to an earlier list and comment on something I have been mulling over.
Romulan Ambassador Nanclus from Undiscovered Country. I think he should not be listed as one of the examples of how the Romulan people are, even then.
First, I think it was bad writing to include him in the list of conspirators. After all what was he shown to have done? Get arrested?
But to look at his involvement as canon, fine. He is listed as a person involved. If his involvement indicates the actions of the Romulan people as a whole. Does not then the actions of General Chang? Or Admiral Cartwright? How about Colonel West?
If Nanclus shows how back stabbing and dishonorable Romulans are then they are by the other examples no worse than the humans or klingons.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I myself will always subscribe to the original Roddenberyesque Assignment of the Romulans as being Chinese, but thats not important here as none of you will concede that reality ever existed anyway
Eh? If I haven't stated as much explicitly myself in these fora somewhere (and I think I have, while also comparing the Bajorans to European Jews and the Cardassians to the TRIBBLE regime, while also comparing the Bajorans to the Irish and the Cardassians to the British Empire, while also comparing the Bajorans to Buddhists and Hindus ... the Bajorans seem to me to be clearly inspired by elements of more than one culture, and the Cardassians to be primarily inspired by the TRIBBLE, with hints of inspiration from British imperialism), then at least I've certainly never denied it. I'm very much aware of the "Klingons as Soviets, Romulans as 'Red' Chinese, and Vulcans as Japanese" idea of TOS.
*shrugs and scratches head*
. If it were logical critique, instead of simply a rhetorical move, you would point to evidence of my alleged bias in what I've said (the points I've made, not simply my admiration for Di'on Charvon -- and you should have also noticed that I admire Keras as well). I've given you CLEAR demonstrations, from canon.
Yes I do call you biased , why?because for some crazy reason you seem to think that the one episode you liked overrides all the other episodes from multiple series that are in greater quantity showing Romulans as antagonists. I acknowledged that Romulans were capable of being good yet that wasn't good enough for you then you accuse me of ignoring The Enterprise Incident even though I said why I thought it shouldn't be a determining factor. You say you want to get to the truth yet the first thing you do is throw out derogatory insults and I'll admit I threw some back though that was out of annoyance at your rude behavior.
If you want to discuss this civilly then by all mean I'm open to a proper discussion but if you're going to resort to name calling and accusations then it's not the truth you're after but personal pride.
Yes I do call you biased , why?because for some crazy reason you seem to think that the one episode you liked overrides all the other episodes from multiple series that are in greater quantity showing Romulans as antagonists. I acknowledged that Romulans were capable of being good yet that wasn't good enough for you then you accuse me of ignoring The Enterprise Incident even though I said why I thought it shouldn't be a determining factor. You say you want to get to the truth yet the first thing you do is throw out derogatory insults and I'll admit I threw some back though that was out of annoyance at your rude behavior.
If you want to discuss this civilly then by all mean I'm open to a proper discussion but if you're going to resort to name calling and accusations then it's not the truth you're after but personal pride.
It's not the one episode, as we (not myself alone) have pointed out repeatedly.
"Balance of Terror" shows this as well, as I have now stated explicitly so many times that I have lost count. "Balance of Terror" involves a mission of aggression, yes (as I have admitted), but the statements and actions of the crew of that BoP -- apart from that single inexperienced and ambitious youth -- demonstrate rather clearly that this was a mission ordered by politicians and not liked by the military personnel aboard the ship.
We (again, not myself alone) have pointed to numerous examples from the other series (even from TNG) which counter the view of Romulans as dominated by bloodlust and aggression. Bloodlust and aggression, however, seem to be the only thing (or at least the dominant thing) that you want to see in Romulan society. Again, a warrior culture cannot -- cannot -- survive, much less spread across a large territory consisting of multiple planets in multiple systems, if that society is nothing but warriors. Not only is such an idea illogical, it's even nonsensical.
Don't buy the Vulcan hype. Rejection of Vulcan "Logic" is not the same thing as being illogical by real world standards, nor is being oneself and accepting that one has emotions and passions which do not need to be either repressed or suppressed a sign that one is entirely dominated by emotions and passions and devoid of rationality. Toss the Vulcan spin on the dung heap where it belongs, and look at the Romulans honestly, without the preconceived ideas promoted by self-aggrandizing Vulcans.
It's not the one episode, as we (not myself alone) have pointed out repeatedly.
"Balance of Terror" shows this as well, as I have now stated explicitly so many times that I have lost count. "Balance of Terror" involves a mission of aggression, yes (as I have admitted), but the statements and actions of the crew of that BoP -- apart from that single inexperienced and ambitious youth -- demonstrate rather clearly that this was a mission ordered by politicians and not liked by the military personnel aboard the ship.
I have several points against this statement. One only the commander expresses his dislike for the mission and it's obvious he does not speak for the entire crew as shown by the Centurions admitted confusion and Decius actions. Two are not politicians part of Romulan culture too? Three it states they fought over a hundred campaigns together if that does not sound like a culture devoted to war then what? Were these missions of peace , I think not.
We (again, not myself alone) have pointed to numerous examples from the other series (even from TNG) which counter the view of Romulans as dominated by bloodlust and aggression. Bloodlust and aggression, however, seem to be the only thing (or at least the dominant thing) that you want to see in Romulan society. Again, a warrior culture cannot -- cannot -- survive, much less spread across a large territory consisting of multiple planets in multiple systems, if that society is nothing but warriors. Not only is such an idea illogical, it's even nonsensical.
Since they first aired Romulans have been part of an Empire. They are Imperialist that by default makes them a group that imposes it's will on others which is almost always militaristic. Also I said warlike culture not warrior culture there is a difference.;)
Don't buy the Vulcan hype. Rejection of Vulcan "Logic" is not the same thing as being illogical by real world standards, nor is being oneself and accepting that one has emotions and passions which do not need to be either repressed or suppressed a sign that one is entirely dominated by emotions and passions and devoid of rationality. Toss the Vulcan spin on the dung heap where it belongs, and look at the Romulans honestly, without the preconceived ideas promoted by self-aggrandizing Vulcans.
I never said Romulans were illogical after all it takes a lot of planning and cunning to pull off intrigue and sabotage. Though with great passions can come great violence and as we well know the Vulcans were a very violent people at first.
The more defensive she gets, the more insulting her arguments, the more her essays stretch out tossing in more and more big words... its like protogoth is going to google to try and make herself sound smarter. Sorry hun but all you're doin atm is sounding like an TRIBBLE that cant handle anyone disagreeing with her. Im not one of vonhellsting "comrades" I dont even know him/her and I am quite familiar with what canon is. Throw all the bulldung you want, use all the excuses you want, but the fact remains you only accept your narrow little view point on this subject and refuse any and all others. Your crusades smack of a need to force others to abandon their opinions and accept yours.
Im perfectly willing to discuss romulans, what they are/aren't or should/shouldn't be and what we can do to take what cryptic has given us and provide them ideas on how to correct this abortion. I started a fairly successful forum thread that discussed all of this over many pages and it remained troll and flame free. At the time many people had valid points and I accepted many, including some of your own. However I am not gonna bother arguing with a vault(that being your closed mind), when all you do is throw insults wrapped in pseudo-intellectial essays that get longer and longer and more and more condescending. Other people have different views, they're allowed that. Quit trying to make everyone accept yours is the only valid one.
oh... and as a side note... WE'RE ARGUING OVER NITPICKS IN A FRANCHISE WITH A HISTORY OF REWRITING ITSELF EVERY TIME WE TURNED AROUND SINCE IT AIRED IN THE 60s! We're all fail at this point.
Comments
Yeah, but see, there's a difference between clinical disinterest and avoiding the fallacy of appeal to passion (among other emotion-based fallacies) on the one hand, and personal suppression and social repression of emotion on the other.
No, KDF is barely ready for release atm :P
My character Tsin'xing
Just walking through the progression:
Nasty Romulan/Federation war with no prisoners. Settles to an established neutral border that neither side is to cross. Decades later a warbird, noted as the 'flagship of the praetor' is ordered across to pummel the listening stations as a test of the Federation's strength. Ship deals massive damage to those border forts as noted by the coded transmission from the warbird. (side note: I think Decius should have been shot for that. It is like making a cellphone call from a submarine. Gives your position away when you're supposed to be hidden.) Shortly after that transmission the warbird is lost. Logically, the military command will think the old bases are susceptible. But like themselves, the Federation has weapons to match. Since they are not weaker, we will ignore them for now. (This logic taken from said warbird captain saying that the proof of weakness will mean another attack and another war. It implies that a lack of weakness turns the attention.) Now a few years later a Federation starship charges into the territory lead by a madman. These are not weak people. We can offer some respect to them and perhaps trade them back to their home. Their ship however will be a fine prize to examine and see how strong they truly are.
After all knowledge is power too. Except it was a ruse to steal secrets from our vessels. The warship takes our cloaking device and runs home with it.
Sounds like two nations to me. Each playing the back stabber role as they see the need.
Though if that mission came up in STO people would claim it should be a section 31 mission.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Tos:Romulans cross the Neutral zone in an attempt to judge if the federation is weak and if so it was to be conquered.
"If we are not the strong is not this the signal for war.""Must it always be so?" Notice the use of always indicating this is common practice.
Ent:Romulans preemptively strike at the coalition of powers (later to be federation of planets) in an attempt to turn possible enemies against each other.
Star Trek 6: Romulan Ambassador is a conspirator in chancellor's assassination in attempt to destroy peace talks. Oh look another preemptive attack designed to turn the Romulans enemies against one another I'm starting to seeing a trend here.
Voy:Romulans infiltrate federation space and kill the crew of the Prometheus in attempt to steal it's advanced technology.
DS9: Tal'shiar preemptively strike at the founders. Granted in this case it's just the Tal'shiar but you don't seriously believe Romulan command had no knowledge of this.
Post Tal'shiar Romulans arm a hospital on a Bajoran moon. Possible foot hold for later conquest when the Dominion is dealt with? Quite possibly.
Oh my Romulans in every series preemptively attacking , but this can't be , they're clearly only sneaky warmongers in the TNG series./sarcasm:rolleyes:
You might look in the mirror and realize you're the one with the TNG blinders on.;)
Ironically it's the TNG episodes that started this whole freedom fighter vs the oppressive Romulan government theme. Not that the Tal'shiar appeared to be the instigators of said policy anyways merely the enforcers of the oppressive government.
Fact check: The plan came from the retired head of the Obsidian Order, the Cardassian intelligence branch. Further the contact in the Tal Sh'iar was a founder that egged them on to lead them into a trap.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I believe Tain said "our plan is" not "my plan is" which suggests that both sides played a part in it's development. It only stands to reason both sides were considering an attack on the founders.
Also yes they were convinced into doing it by the changeling but the plan was already in motion as the changeling had said he was just making sure no one got cold feet and backed out.
On the contrary, I stated what happened in "Balance of Terror" quite accurately. You have chosen to ignore anything in that episode which does not support your claim. You also totally ignored "The Enterprise Incident." You've stated repeatedly what you would like; the trouble is, that's not how things were.
Pro tip: this is not a debate, wherein you might be able to awe an audience by attempts to obfuscate, use of fallacy, omission of facts, etc. We are interested in getting at the truth, rather than winning a rhetorical game.
I was replying to your response to concept6 where he was trying to say the Romulans aren't portrayed as they were in the shows. You basically said you don't know anything about Romulans go watch the shows which I felt was an unfair assessment. Granted there are some exceptions to Romulan Warmongering but it's not some random blip on the screen it's a continuing theme we see again and again.
Tsk tsk accusation accusations , you said yourself you didn't want to engage in rhetorical blather. I choose to stick to the point rather than explore every facet of the Romulan psyche. Now you accuse me of attempting to obscure the truth for not wanting to turn this into an endless debate that's not very mature.
And when the trap was sprung and Garak was freeing Odo the changling that came to also free Odo mentioned it was Tain's plan. They just let him believe it was a good one.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I'm a she, thanks (I don't think this is news to anyone who's paid attention to my past posts; while I don't belabor the point, I have mentioned it at least twice in posts I have made here in the past). Women play MMOs too.
And on the contrary, I've pointed out several times exactly many of the things that were said about "Balance of Terror." I admit that "Balance of Terror" was an act of aggression instigated by the Romulan Star Empire. I've never denied that. Portraying the Romulans in that episode as gung-ho militarists, however, is rather blinkered.
Ignoring everything that doesn't support the skewed idea of Romulans-as-warmongering-bad-guys is exactly what I saw in vonhellsting's post, and which I believe I pointed out rather deftly. "The Enterprise Incident," an episode which demonstrates very clearly that this notion of Romulans as villains is a generalization based on a handful of (primarily TNG) episodes, was ignored entirely in that post in an effort to promote the very view it contradicts.
I am not the only person who has pointed out this misapprehension of the Romulan psyche, and given evidence in support of a more accurate understanding, but those who grew up on TNG seem unable or unwilling to accept this evidence, purposefully omitting any reference which doesn't support their assertions.
Some have even stated, kodachikuno, in the face of compelling canonical evidence, that they prefer this and/or that non-canonical source (after having previously having attempted to instruct me that I should check the canon references, with which I am very familiar, and which I subsequently provided in support of what I had said) -- a ploy sometimes referred to as "moving the goalposts." :rolleyes: Please, don't try Rhetoric on me. I will call you on it every time. I'm not interested in debate (Rhetoric); I'm interested in the truth (Logic, and no, I do not mean the Vulcan mystical and anti-emotional glorification of empiricism as worldview).
And with reference to the truth:
Yes, there are inconsistencies in the official material (from the movies and various series). We all know this; it should come as no surprise to anyone who's familiar with the various series and movies. However, there's also a generally-accepted current of ideas which are strongly supported by numerous official references and facts (rather than one or two continuity errors here or there which can be seized upon by those with an axe to grind in favor of whatever their sacred cow may be) -- it is this generally accepted current of ideas which is hard canon, not every word muttered in every episode of every official series and every official movie.
Protogoth is arguing for either the original hat, or an actual multilayered culture of individuals, while much of the counterargument seems to be in favor of the other hat.
Do not blaspheme sir!
You know all races have but one facet to a culture. And all worlds but one climate each!
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My personal preference is the original hat, but the reality is that Romulan society is not all one monolithic perspective, and that the Tal'Shiar represent a departure (and a somewhat radical one at that) from the original presentation.
Hmm I'll have to watch that episode again if I can find it been a while since I've seen it. Though regardless of who's plan it was my point was still stands that Romulans were aggressors in that episode.;)
I fail to see how presenting your one episode of non Romulan violence overrides the other episode of clearly an aggressive warlike race. The Romulans didn't leave Vulcan because they were peace loving pacifist it was a brutal civil war.:rolleyes:
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Romulans are capable of compassion that's been shown on numerous occasions. I might add quite a few of which were TNG episodes but that does not distract from the fact that they are often portrayed as an aggressive warlike culture. Romulans for all intents and purposes are basically Romans in space. Was Roman culture evil? No , they were cruel at times but they also brought culture and art to the world they had many facets. Though most of us would agree Rome would lose a lot of it's appeal if you were playing a game and they took out the Roman Empire and the intrigue of the senate and made them a bunch of statue builders.
It's this dissection of the Romulan people that is offending a great deal of Romulan fans. They've taken a diverse culture dissected off the parts they didn't like to the point that we have a one dimensional organization. They've dumbed them down to baby terms all Tal'shiar/Empire bad , all republic good.
Without going outside hard canon, there is precious little information on what exactly caused The Sundering, but even the Vulcans admit that they themselves entered into a radical new lifestyle and state that the Romulan forebears chose to leave. Converts are often rather ... zealous, and intolerant. To this day (i.e., 2409) we can still observe condescension and bias on the part of the Vulcans toward, essentially, everyone else (and sometimes even toward other Vulcans). If the followers of Surak were unwilling to tolerate dissension from their new "and improved" worldview (as seems very probable given similar developments in the real world on Earth), would it have been more bellicose for the Romulan forebears to stay and continue to fight them, or to leave them to their choice -- and its consequences? Seems to me rather the opposite is more likely, that the Vulcans were the aggressors intent on forcing everyone to convert to their new religion or die (and then later covered that up with revisionist history in a pretense that subsequently became believed even by their own descendants to such an extent that they embraced the false pacifism whitewash given to what really happened), and the Romulans could have easily stayed and fought if they were as aggressive as Vulcan propaganda pretends. Instead, however, we are told that they chose to leave rather than stay and conform or stay and "kill or be killed" by their misguided kindred (notice that I have presented three options which would have been available to them, not merely two, and there may have been still more options which did not occur to me as I was preparing this post).
Keras clearly had no stomach for the aggressive mission on which he was sent in "Balance of Terror," and he was not the only Romulan in that episode who expressed that sentiment. But not only did you ignore "The Enterprise Incident" entirely, you also blatantly disregarded the central message of "Balance of Terror" (which is, essentially, that "we," Romulans and Humans, are not that different) in an effort to paint the Romulans into the corner you seemed to have wanted them in. Politicians ordered that mission; the active military personnel who were directly involved were not terribly keen on it (which is not unheard of in Earth history, either), with the exception of one green-behind-the-ears, foolhardy, ambitious, and somewhat thick youth (whose actions doomed the entire crew, mind).
Romulans are not any more pacifistic than they are aggressive, and the reverse is also true. Do they have a warrior culture? Yes, that's kind of de rigueur for an imperialistic society, but that doesn't necessitate that they be stupid -- or incapable of preferring peaceful (if occasionally a strained peace) separatism (as resulted in The Sundering, and as was the result of the treaty that established the Romulan Neutral Zone).
Romulans are also not illogical (at least, not any more so than any other culture, Vulcans included -- and I'm not saying "illogical" in the Vulcan sense, but in the sense of the real world, academic discipline of Logic). They are simply not unemotional. In reference to this, Di'on Charvon herself states (and look, oh my, she even refers to the warrior culture of Romulans here): "Romulan women are not like Vulcan females. We're not dedicated to pure logic and the sterility of non-emotion. Our people are warriors, often savage, but we are also many other pleasant things." Any society that consists of nothing but warriors is impossible. There must be other "castes" within a society or it cannot survive, let alone spread across multiple planets in multiple systems. She says they are "often savage," not that they are constantly savage (and her ability to recognize and admit that savagery is not uncommon among her people is in itself a rather telling fact), and quickly points out that savagery is not the only characteristic of Romulans, but instead affirms that Romulans "are also many other pleasant things."
Foolhardiness and indiscriminate violence are not virtues even for a warrior culture. You have seemed, in multiple posts, to promote the idea that, in order to be a warrior culture, the Romulans must embrace such nonsensical concepts. Again, Romulans are not illogical. And again, I'm using the term in the real world sense, not the Vulcan sense; generally speaking, if I'm not speaking/posting In-Character as a Vulcan (and I do have a Vulcan toon and an Orion toon, as well as a Romulan toon), I will distinguish Vulcan "Logic" by calling it (as I just did) "Vulcan 'Logic'," and not merely "Logic." The same applies to my use of "logical" and "illogical" -- if I mean "logical in the Vulcan sense" (and am not IC as a Vulcan), then I'm going to almost invariably say "logical in the Vulcan sense" and likewise with "illogical in the Vulcan sense" (although "illogical" in real world terms is also "illogical in the Vulcan sense," theoretically). I do this redundantly in the hope that nobody will misunderstand my intention (as well as to point out that real world Logic is both less and more than Vulcan "Logic").
I'll also digress a bit further to point out that Romans did not bring culture and art to anyone. All of the peoples they conquered had their own cultures and art. The Romans brought Romanitas (that is, Roman culture, art, Latin language, -- in short, Roman worldview) to other cultures and imposed it to the best of their ability, while occasionally tolerating some marginalized status for the native worldview and its expressions. Even now in 2013, I can honestly state "Legere Latinem possum," because Romanitas is still considered (in the West, at least) to be more "valuable" than the cultures of other peoples. This is cultural imperialism, not any sort of "enlightenment." Sure enough, it can broaden a person's perspective, but to say that the Romans brought culture and art to other peoples is just ... well, offensive. And that little rabbit chase ending in that word "offensive" takes us on to the next bit of your post to which I would like to reply.
Comrade, I'm a Romulan fan. I've been a Romulan fan since the very first airing of the two TOS episodes that featured Romulans (and yes, I'm hinting at my age by this admission). As a little girl, I wanted to be Di'on Charvon and seduce Spock just as she attempted to do (with more success than she realized till she and Spock had their final private conversation of the episode in the turbolift of the Enterprise). But here's the rub, as johnsills pointed out, quoting from the TV Tropes wiki site:
and as I've stated many times, TNG (and to a lesser extent, DS9) recast the Romulans as something that was not part of their original depiction. Yes, "Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident" are both stories of espionage and intrigue, but neither of them portrays Romulans as paranoid fascists who tolerate no dissension, whereas TNG does just that, with but few exceptions.
But to your representation of the STO Tal'Shiar/Empire as "all bad" and the New Republic as "all good," I really don't see that.
Let's take the Tal'Shiar/Empire first:
Janek is certainly not a one-dimensional, nor villainous personality, yet she is a Tal'Shiar Commander. Taris claims to have been duped into something she claims to have had no idea would result (and her claims seem quite credible, to me at least). Even Charva is obviously more brainwashed victim than villain. It is Hakeev (and his mindless sycophants who appear to form the overwhelming majority of the Tal'Shiar rank-and-file) who is (are) presented as consistent with the TNG paranoid police state fascist Tal'Shiar.
And the New Republic next:
Putting the shoe on the other foot, we see the complexities of Obisek and his search for (and success in obtaining) thalaron weapons (which then subsequently become standard equipment on some of the vessels of the New Republic), weapons which nobody else wants to admit having (but do you really believe that Section 31 doesn't have a fairly large stockpile or three of such weapons?), apparently with D'Tan's full knowledge and approval. If I thought about it a bit longer and looked around at mission dialogues, I could probably come up with more examples, but those two individuals right there are rather important personages in the New Republic.
This is nowhere nearly as dumbed-down or one-dimensional as you have suggested, on either side.
I had suspected Di'on was your childhood role model by your emotional reactions but now you've confirmed my suspicions. Clearly you're unable to accept anything that might taint this image of your hero. You've unintentionally blinded yourself but you can't see this because you are blind to anything that would destroy the image of your childhood idol. I will not carry on this conversation since I know you will hear but not listen. Perhaps in time you might be able to see things clearer.
Your insights are always interesting and you dig up often hard to find bits. But other people are allowed other opinions. You might also look into some of those sources you find 'non-canon'. You might be pleasantly surprised by what you find there. My experiences with the FASA material pretty much propagated the 'Space Romans' of the ToS
^this, protogoth's lectures aside this basically distills it down to the cold hard truth of what STO did
This is simply Abusive ad Hominem. If it were logical critique, instead of simply a rhetorical move, you would point to evidence of my alleged bias in what I've said (the points I've made, not simply my admiration for Di'on Charvon -- and you should have also noticed that I admire Keras as well). I've given you CLEAR demonstrations, from canon. I've admitted things you've contended. I've pointed out that Romulans are not any more or less pacifistic than most other cultures (and part of the problem some of you seem to have is an inability to get it through your heads that the New Republic is not a gang of "space hippies," but someone used this term a few months ago, and it was seized upon by people unwilling to come up with any valid criticism -- and oh, how I wish I could point to real-world examples of this without breaking PWE's ToS and forum/community guidelines, as they are abundant since at least the mid 1980s, but they are also almost exclusively found in the partisan political milieu, and that would be crossing a line which I won't cross).
You now seize on the first opportunity you can exaggerate into an allegation of bias in an effort to discredit my position through the use of ad Hominem fallacy of the Abusive sort, as well as to use as an excuse to "bow out" of the discussion while trying to save face, because you know that your case is weak and mine is strong. I suspect you also simply don't have the patience to read my lengthy posts and respond to the points I make. You claim to accept the multi-faceted nature of Romulan society, yet have not translated that to realization, still pushing for "Romulans are bloodthirsty savages always and forever!" I'm not the only one who has shown this perspective to be the result of TNG's revisionist portrayal of Romulans, nor am I even the most tireless in pointing this out. I've argued with Logic, you've debated with Rhetoric.
One of your comrades has blatantly engaged in moving the goalposts, and obviously has little or no understanding of the meaning of "canon" (hard, soft, or otherwise), and clearly has no interest in more serious discussion that might necessitate a modification of preconceived ideas and a slaughter of sacred cows. I'm familiar with numerous soft canon and non-canonical sources. I've made use of Diane Duane's material in my own RP. I've used both of the Orion sourcebooks from FASA (The Orions: Book of Common Knowledge and The Orions: Book of Deep Knowledge) for my Orion's biography. I still have old Star Trek comic books which I was given in the '70s. I have a small pamphlet on Vulcan language that was published in, iirc, 1977, and which was never really used by anyone connected with canon in an official capacity. The perception that I don't go outside canon is obviously mistaken.
But I'm the one with bias? Allow me to demonstrate an ethical use of Rhetoric:
Is this an episode of The Twilight Zone, rather than an online discussion forum dedicated to a game based on Star Trek? Have I somehow wandered into the Bizarro world? I mean, really.
See, I can play rhetorical games, too; the difference is that I'm not embracing the opportunism tolerated by Rhetoric which allows orators involved in debate to "get away" with fallacy as long as nobody calls them on it.
Romulan Ambassador Nanclus from Undiscovered Country. I think he should not be listed as one of the examples of how the Romulan people are, even then.
First, I think it was bad writing to include him in the list of conspirators. After all what was he shown to have done? Get arrested?
But to look at his involvement as canon, fine. He is listed as a person involved. If his involvement indicates the actions of the Romulan people as a whole. Does not then the actions of General Chang? Or Admiral Cartwright? How about Colonel West?
If Nanclus shows how back stabbing and dishonorable Romulans are then they are by the other examples no worse than the humans or klingons.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Eh? If I haven't stated as much explicitly myself in these fora somewhere (and I think I have, while also comparing the Bajorans to European Jews and the Cardassians to the TRIBBLE regime, while also comparing the Bajorans to the Irish and the Cardassians to the British Empire, while also comparing the Bajorans to Buddhists and Hindus ... the Bajorans seem to me to be clearly inspired by elements of more than one culture, and the Cardassians to be primarily inspired by the TRIBBLE, with hints of inspiration from British imperialism), then at least I've certainly never denied it. I'm very much aware of the "Klingons as Soviets, Romulans as 'Red' Chinese, and Vulcans as Japanese" idea of TOS.
*shrugs and scratches head*
If you want to discuss this civilly then by all mean I'm open to a proper discussion but if you're going to resort to name calling and accusations then it's not the truth you're after but personal pride.
It's not the one episode, as we (not myself alone) have pointed out repeatedly.
"Balance of Terror" shows this as well, as I have now stated explicitly so many times that I have lost count. "Balance of Terror" involves a mission of aggression, yes (as I have admitted), but the statements and actions of the crew of that BoP -- apart from that single inexperienced and ambitious youth -- demonstrate rather clearly that this was a mission ordered by politicians and not liked by the military personnel aboard the ship.
We (again, not myself alone) have pointed to numerous examples from the other series (even from TNG) which counter the view of Romulans as dominated by bloodlust and aggression. Bloodlust and aggression, however, seem to be the only thing (or at least the dominant thing) that you want to see in Romulan society. Again, a warrior culture cannot -- cannot -- survive, much less spread across a large territory consisting of multiple planets in multiple systems, if that society is nothing but warriors. Not only is such an idea illogical, it's even nonsensical.
Don't buy the Vulcan hype. Rejection of Vulcan "Logic" is not the same thing as being illogical by real world standards, nor is being oneself and accepting that one has emotions and passions which do not need to be either repressed or suppressed a sign that one is entirely dominated by emotions and passions and devoid of rationality. Toss the Vulcan spin on the dung heap where it belongs, and look at the Romulans honestly, without the preconceived ideas promoted by self-aggrandizing Vulcans.
I have several points against this statement. One only the commander expresses his dislike for the mission and it's obvious he does not speak for the entire crew as shown by the Centurions admitted confusion and Decius actions. Two are not politicians part of Romulan culture too? Three it states they fought over a hundred campaigns together if that does not sound like a culture devoted to war then what? Were these missions of peace , I think not.
Since they first aired Romulans have been part of an Empire. They are Imperialist that by default makes them a group that imposes it's will on others which is almost always militaristic. Also I said warlike culture not warrior culture there is a difference.;)
I never said Romulans were illogical after all it takes a lot of planning and cunning to pull off intrigue and sabotage. Though with great passions can come great violence and as we well know the Vulcans were a very violent people at first.
Im perfectly willing to discuss romulans, what they are/aren't or should/shouldn't be and what we can do to take what cryptic has given us and provide them ideas on how to correct this abortion. I started a fairly successful forum thread that discussed all of this over many pages and it remained troll and flame free. At the time many people had valid points and I accepted many, including some of your own. However I am not gonna bother arguing with a vault(that being your closed mind), when all you do is throw insults wrapped in pseudo-intellectial essays that get longer and longer and more and more condescending. Other people have different views, they're allowed that. Quit trying to make everyone accept yours is the only valid one.