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Were Romulans really ready for release?
odstparker
Member Posts: 466 Arc User
I know there have been a lot of bugs on the Romulan "faction" since its release, some that are still a major pain in the TRIBBLE and have had no mention of a fix. So, I'd like to ask Cryptic if they were pressed for time or they just wanted to make a crappy sub-faction. It seems that the only really great thing about the Romulan "Faction" is the ability to command a Warbird. I was so happy to fly my first Mogai. However, everything else seems horribly downgraded from the other two factions, from uniforms (major bugs, can't even get my Romulan to look good without using the default Republic Uniform) to Bridge Officers like Tovan (the Wesley Crusher of the Romulan Republic) being bugged. I really think they should have waited until they could match the Romulans with the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Most importantly, MAKE THEM A SEPARATE FACTION! We don't want to play a sub-faction that relies completely on the others, we want a strong faction that stands on its own!
Please work on this, Cryptic, before the Romulan faction becomes like the Klingons, half the content, half the attention.
Please work on this, Cryptic, before the Romulan faction becomes like the Klingons, half the content, half the attention.
Post edited by odstparker#7820 on
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Uniforms, yeah thats frustrating won't argue there. Not gonna lose sleep over it though. Bugs happen, especially with little details in large releases.
Tovan, I just don't understand the hate. He's a nice guy who's always got your back, and in a treacherous universe its good to have friends. Plus he actually comes with a personality, which puts him up on just about any other lifeless boff in this game. Plus he's a long way from being Wesley 'Marty Stu' Crusher. Reminds me more of like Sulu, personally.
The faction thing.....the game was designed around two factions, from map layout to PVP to STF groups to most of the backstory. Story-wise, the Romulan Star Empire was/is a shadow of its former self even prior to the LOR stories, and was never going to be equal to anyone. So its either redesign the entire game around 3 factions, or come up with a storyline of alliances that lets the Romulans use existing mechanical assets while still maintaining there own story. And that story is still uniquely Romulan; I always felt like a Romulan doing Romulan stuff, never missing anything or being just someone else's pet. Yeah its nonsensical when it comes to Romulans killing other Romulans in PVP, but everything about PVP is nonsensical, so its just one more thing for the Threshold bin. Honestly what were you expecting, that Cryptic would redesign half the game so you could play Gestapo In Spaaaaace?
Just no pleasing some people.
Long Answer: 'Ready' is subjective and dependant entirely on an individual person's point of view.
Perception: Romulan faction isn't how you expected it to be, and it has bugs -- just as STO has always had bugs. Therefore because it isn't what you were expecting, it isn't ready.
Truth: All things considered, the Romulan faction has obviously had a great deal of work put into it. Although the bugs are understandably frustrating, there's hardly evidence in the game that points that the faction is unplayably broken.
If you really want to start a Romulan starbase, embassy, and dilithium mine at Tier 0 and work your way up from scratch, or want an even more unbalanced and broken pvp 'system' where there's now 2 enemies to fight instead of 1, you're an even bigger TRIBBLE than I am.
He constantly tries to promote himself to First Officer, Head of Tactical, and Head of Security.
He sits on my bridge even thought the latrine officer has no station on the bridge.
He is the wrong gender.
I hate Tovan with a passion.
My Tovan
To the OP, making the Romulans a separate faction would guarantee that they would become second class citizens, just as the KDF already are. Be thankful for what you have.
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
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And Tovan... poor, poor Tovan. I suppose the reason I call him the Romulan Wesley Crusher is because he was bugged a lot, and still is sometimes, and does things he shouldn't. He constantly shows up in mission briefings and dialogue when you don't have him stationed anywhere, he showed up in random instances sometimes and just stood near the entrance (or died in the case of the Nukara ground missions), even though no one had him as a boff, even when we had no Romulans with us.
Cryptic tried to add him into the game's storyline a bit too much, and he's become an annoyance. Sound like anyone you've heard of before?
But like Iconians said, the RR is way better of than the way the KDF was in season 3. their tutorial is leaps and bounds over the way the fed tutorial worked in season 3. So I'm not gonna say they weren't ready for release.
My character Tsin'xing
Were they ready? Yes. And I so hope more is yet to come.
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Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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Im guessin but I think they did a 'hurry up and go' so they could shift people over to the expansion pack for Neverwinter. I think CO also had an anniversary pop up so there was probably an event and other content that needed work.. I think the romulans got the 'close enough for now' and shipped out the door treatment so they could do things on CO/NWO
OP? Definately. Boffs, PCs and ships. Yes.
Finished? No.
Why?
Despite the blatently OP nature of the Boff traits, it would have been nice to have had two or three more boff, if not playable, races. Nice of them to give away Reman playables as a Rom rep completion reward though. The fact that Roms are so obviously OP is either a sales ploy or further evidence that they were released unfinished.
Doffs.... The same way I'm not interested in RPing that my toon is a member of a real 3rd faction, I'm not interested in RPing the fact that Romulan society is in a mess either. I don't want to have to go to Sol in order to make full use of the doff system. It takes 2 minutes, sure, but it's a pain.
Not enough Warbirds (at launch). OP they may, but this is best expressed through the '3 ships from one' example of the Ha'akona/Ha'apex, Ha'feh, Ha'nom. I realise they wanted Roms to have access to the consoles of their allies, and so gave them access to lower tier ally ships, but hey, KDF don't get Fed or Rom consoles through warbirds and the same goes for Feds so I'm not sure how this can be justified outside of purely making money. They do have a lot of nice excuses and get out clauses for not finishing this and many other aspects of RRF gameplay though, I'll give them that.
Collsions and that thing where many rom ships get locked with another ship pushing them to the top of the map... It happens so frequently, I cannot believe it wasn't seen before release.
Uniforms.... Clipping, palette mismatches, colour changes for one item also changing them for another, there's probably more, but you get the point.
Skipping the tutorial not giving you access to the special story doffs such as 'Rai'.
The Department heads bug. Not sure if that's Rom only or gamewide, but it's still a bug all the same.
Most mission contacts treating you as a member of your ally faction. Lots don't, but most do. This is also linked to the Romulan faction simply not existing in the foundry.
No character class icons displaying in the fleet roster. It displays in searches and friends list, so why not in the roster window?
Having to use a workaround to train non RRF boffs until you can get RRF boffs is also a pain. The fact that the feature episode boffs are allied faction boffs is pretty annoying too.
There's a whole bunch of other little things that if you've played RRF extensively, you'll know about too. Sure, they may be minor things, but there's a mountain of them. Some players' only concern is access to the OP rom stuff, and that's fine, I guess. Not good enough for me though I'm afraid.
So yea, technically they were ready, I was able to get to level 50 no problem. There was enough story content to level with without needing to resort to mirror or other events. I was and am able to play and replay all the content up to and including 50 and for the most part, the things that are in the game seem to be working as intended. However fun the story was, I still feel they rushed many of the finer details though.
*edit* - I don't know... I guess I'm just a member of the 'if you're gonna do something, do it properly' camp. Same applies to the KDF too.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
was it 'complete'? no, not at all but that is largely down to practical reasons. if you wanted a full faction then we still would not even have them by now, and people would be screaming about the year of hell II with no content for the past year.
there is also the possibility that little to no one will be interested in them and they wont make any money. Klingons have the much publicised 18%, well if if the Romulans were a massive failure then it would have been very bad for the game but probably not the end of the world. making it at least twice as big and being a massive failure could very well have put the games future in doubt.
i know people want everything, and they want it yesterday but going all out and doing it properly might sound great. does not mean its going to work, and not risk the overall health of the game.
Plasmonic, mogai console, borg module+KCB. Marion doff, too, but not essential. Power AND shield issues solved.
And yes, Romulan factions WAS indeed rushed. THey needed a cow to bring in money, and nothing better than a OP faction with lots of "features" like OP ships (scimi), OP boffs.
Roll a KDF Rommie, slap elite disruptors on a Scimi or Tvaro/Dhelan. Its fun!
But thats it. Story-wise, its a mess. Tovan is useless (did u look his traits? sup stubborn, lol). And being called warrior or starfleet in pratically every single mission is annoying. Doesnt make sense to have to choose between fed/kdf. At all, just go to Kerrat... someone could say that there is a romulan civil war going on!
I hope they address at least the Tovan thing. Let me dismiss him with some honor.
The simple fact is that STO can't handle 3 factions. We just don't have the numbers to support 3 factions. The mini-faction system allows new unique content to be released without having to worry that one faction has only a few compared to the other.
Uniforms or ships. Not enough to loose sleep over with. Look at the KDF, much older yet they lack a lot of stuff. Specially in the Uniform dept. Ships they got a decent selection. Romulans they lack in both. But they are slowly catching up. You got to start somewhere. Just give them time.
The faction, well it was based off 2 of them. So doing the Romulans as "allied" with Federation or KDF. It helped players stay with their friends, fleets, and do events. Without taking out the player pool or messing stuff up. I like it this way. Yet they still have their "own" part since you only get Romulan ships to use and a few other features.
Tovan, granted most hated him. Specially when they make him stuck with your crew. Other than that, I thought how they did on them and gaining your crew like that was great. It really helped on the story. Or least the option like that. Other than just join and move on. They all have some kind of story behind them.
Even with the Federation or KDF, they have their issues. Depending on several factors. So to me, this was a good start for the Romulans. Glad to see them in game finally.
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In regards to Ship lineup (most powerful, TAC oriented lineup in the game, IMO), BOFFs (easily most OP in the game), campaign, yes, the Romulans were ready.
But since they were released as a Subfaction and not a completely independent one such as Fed & KDF, no, they were completely unready.
That's not the only one, but it's an easy example....
My character Tsin'xing
We've been through this repeatedly in this forum. Go back to TOS and learn what the Romulans were before the Tal'Shiar of TNG. Go to DS9, VOY, even ENT. The Tal'Shiar of TNG are the anomaly.
Funny because I can give an example in every series of Romulans not being peace loving diplomats.:P
LOOOOL!!! OMG!... I just got to say that is Awesome. He looks like Justin Bieber or something. *just can't stop laughing*
I do not hate Tovan nearly that much but he should be able to be rid of eventually. I think though that considering all the voice acting and ships etc that the Romulan Faction was ready for release but it desperately does need to be ironed out in this live Beta.
The Romulans in their very first appearance of TOS could be quite aggressive ("Balance of Terror"). That BOP was sent on an unprovoked attack to show the weakness of the Federation. It's captain did not feel that was prudent, to risk war in such a way, but he carried out his orders and did the border strikes and was on the way home. But with the Enterprise tailing them, he intended to ignore her and return home, mission accomplished. However, elements within his own command on the ship demanded they turn around and humiliate the Federation further by destroying the Enterprise. In the end, with a possible mutiny or making more enemies back home, the captain decided against his better judgement and turn around and face the Enterprise.
Onboard the Enterprise, Kirk held a council with his senior officers on what to do next. Kirk wasn't too sold on giving chase and risking further war or pursuing the Romulans to punish them for their transgressions. His officers were divided over the issue, with 1 being very much for chasing down and destroying the Romulans. Sulu thought it foolish trying to chase a foe that they had no way of detecting. Spock, however, settled the matter... Spock, going on the idea if the Romulans clung to the old ways that Vulcans used to before their "split," then any sign of weakness to the Romulans will risk further aggressions, further war. In dealing with the Romulans, they MUST act aggressively in return; They MUST find that BOP and destroy it.
McCoy: "War is never imperative, Mr Spock."
Spock: "It is for them."
All this, in the very first depiction of the Romulans in the franchise. Far before even the term "Tal Shiar" was ever introduced through TNG.
Even the next show that had Romulans, "The Enterprise Incident," showed the aggressive Romulans playing their soon to be familiar games within the Neutral Zone. Again, all before the Tal Shiar is even mentioned.
Fast forward to TNG, the Romulans kept laying their clever games of espionage, deception, etc., especially most famously in the Neutral Zone. The Enterprise's numerous run-ins with the very aggressive Tomalak, who as an officer of the regular Romulan Star Empire's military, not Tal Shiar. Also, the Enterprise's run-ins with Sela, trying to carry out clandestine operations, most famously in trying to undermine the Klingon Empire by putting up someone that would be supportive to the Romulan Star Empire (Duras over Gowron).
On and on and on. The Romulans on their own were very aggressive, all before we even saw much of the Tal Shiar. Now, in TNG's "Face of the Enemy" we know there are Romulans who are not keen in how the Tal Shiar did its ruthless business (i.e. Capt Toreth). Despite this, she had no qualms in turning her Warbird around to destroy the Enterprise-D on the suspicion that it was somehow able to track her ship. Lastly, even before we had the Tal Shiar actually show up in character, we had all these schemes and aggressive actions by the Romulans, carried out by regular Romulan military personnel, and not the Tal Shiar. In TOS, the Romulans acted like so before the idea existed of a Tal Shiar for the franchise.
So, with all this in mind, if anything, the Romulans in STO are completely out of character. You are talking about an offshoot of the Vulcan race that broke away because they did not embrace logic, they did not leave behind their emotions. And everything we have seen of them in the franchise, has shown them to be clever, aggressive. They can be quite devious at times with their schemes.
Edit to add: This clip from "Balance of Terror" I think sums up quite alot about the Romulans. Their aggressiveness in provoking the Federation to flaunt its weakness; remember, they attacked the Federation side of the Neutral Zone. The Romulan captain carrying out his orders, understanding these orders could carry both powers into interstellar war. Wary of war and the costs his people and his comrades have already paid, but he carries out his duty.
Few people are ever peace-loving diplomats, no matter their external pretensions. You know well the point that was being made in both statements, but your sympathies actuate an attempt to engage me in rhetorical blather again. "All Roms should be bellicose because that's how TNG portrays them." "Sed contra, puer, TNG Roms are the exception, not the rule." That's the translation of both statements for you.
In TOS, Commander Keras is an old and tired soldier who knows honor well, but also understands duty. Pay attention to the things he says. Yes, there are young upstarts eager to make a name for themselves with the Imperial Star Navy, children with no understanding of how the universe works, and no thought of the consequences of their actions apart from whether or not those actions will benefit them personally in the short-term. They are children, adolescents, not fully developed, with little experience, but maybe a few connections. And there is ONE of them on the entire ship, who endangers the whole crew through his foolhardiness and ambition. This is no different from the Human situation. Military actions ordered by old bureaucrats and politicians who've never seen actual combat, or have forgotten what it was like, or just plain don't care as long as it improves their standing temporarily, and young gung-ho boys who have yet to learn the difference between reality and fantasy eager to earn "glory" -- yeah, sounds like Human military politics.
In TOS, Commander Di'on Charvon is so "anti-peace" that she captures a Federation vessel which has invaded Romulan space and offers amnesty to the crew. Wait, what? Subcommander Tal detects an enemy transmission from within the ship and reports it to Di'on Charvon, because he hates peace? Or because he wants the Commander for himself? Or is he just doing his duty?
That's it for TOS. One Romulan out of the entire series who can be held up as a (very weak) example of a warmonger, yet is shamed and angered when it is pointed out to him that he's put the ship and crew at risk.
Take off the Tal'Shiar blinders and look at the shows honestly.
Yeah, a couple of issues with that. They weren't sent to show to the weakness of the Federation, but to test the battle-readiness of Starfleet. This may be a subtlety, but the distinction is not that obscure.
Spock's comments were based on personal ignorance and exposure to Vulcan propaganda. This can hardly be taken as anything written in stone, in particular when seen in light of his final exchange with Di'on Charvon aboard the turbolift in the subsequent Romulan episode.
Wait, wait. You're mistaken there. The Enterprise entered the Neutral Zone and even Romulan territory. Until later in the episode, it's not even certain that Kirk is still sane; he's taken his ship into neutral territory and then into "cold war" enemy territory in a blatant display of treaty violation designed to provoke a response, and the crew is not entirely comfortable with this. The Romulans played no games within the Neutral Zone in this episode. Starfleet ordered an espionage mission in violation of the treaty between the Federation and the RSE. The Romulan Commander's response? Surround the ship and disable it, then investigate before taking action, and then offer amnesty to the crew, holding Kirk alone responsible. These are clearly not the actions of someone blinded by passions, as Vulcan propaganda would have it, nor someone being aggressive, as you've suggested. The aggression in this episode was all Starfleet, not the Romulans. I think you knew this, else you would have said more about this episode than the brief and misleading comments that you did make.
Edit: "Logic" in Trek terms is not the same thing as real-world Logic. Vulcan "Logic" is an anti-emotional, mystical, and pro-empirical worldview. Logic in the real world includes the empirical method (Inductive Logic), but is not limited thereto. Logic in the real world is not a mystical worldview. Logic in the real world does not espouse the suppression or repression of emotion. The Romulans chose to be themselves, rather than turn into what the Vulcans became. The choice to suppress and repress emotion is not laudable. It was an unnecessary overreaction.
TNG Romulans have been pointed to again and again as the anomaly, out of character with the Romulans of every other series in the franchise, yet these are the Romulans most appealed to in support of (and most consistent with) the idea of Romulans as one-dimensional villains. Starting the discussion over again in a new thread isn't going to erase all the previous demonstrations of this. Attempting to misrepresent the TOS Romulans as consistent with the TNG Romulans isn't going to fly when most of us know better and have shown, multiple times in this forum, that they're anything but.
If you insist, I might be persuaded to post the links to several of these past demonstrations, but I really shouldn't have to. You've both seen them before.
I may be one of the few out there, but I don't like how the Rom-Fed/KDF uniforms look. I prefer the traditional canon uniforms or even the regular Republic ones than the "New Allied" versions.