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Let us bail on bad groups as soon as the optional fails

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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    If anything, OP, you demonstrate the reason and need for a Leaver Penalty. You want to throw your little tantrum and unplug your wifi? Fine, but suffer the consequences.

    Besides, you weren't guaranteed a successful Optional. You got exactly what you ordered: a match with a possibility to make the Optional as well.

    Besides, it often pays to stay, as, in a bad group, the game thinks you did really well, and awards you accordingly. I've walked away with 115 Marks once, and 11 BNP's, *outside* bonus hours even! And on a failed Optional. Of course, that's only for ppl who stay. People, like you, who leave prematurely, get nothing; well, not nothing: a Leaver Penalty. And that is how it should be.

    And if you're truly so bad-TRIBBLE, how come you're still pugging!?
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Oh, and the word you're looking for is 'bale.'

    'Bail out' = vb tr 'What you do with greedy banks, so they can continue to give themselves hundreds of millions in bonusses, right after they failed epically, and plunged the world into financial chaos.'

    'Bale (out)' = vb intr 'To extricate oneself from an unpleasant situation.'
    ChCDpuh.jpg
  • stofskstofsk Member Posts: 1,744 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Besides, it often pays to stay, as, in a bad group, the game thinks you did really well, and awards you accordingly. I've walked away with 115 Marks once, and 11 BNP's, *outside* bonus hours even! And on a failed Optional. Of course, that's only for ppl who stay. People, like you, who leave prematurely, get nothing; well, not nothing: a Leaver Penalty. And that is how it should be.
    How does that actually work out of curiosity?
    sander233 wrote: »
    I actually look forward to that kind of challenge. *snip*
    I agree with you and can share a couple of stories like the one you gave. What I'm talking about though is somewhat different: what if nobody communicated in your particular example? Like try as you might, nothing you were saying was being heeded and nobody even acknowledged your chat?

    Since we're sharing stories I'll give you one in return. :) I did a KSE once my friend and I were in and one guy left early. Maybe he got disconnected, maybe his house was on fire, I don't know. We still kept on going. We didn't get the optional but it was not from lack of trying. Anyway a second guy left (probably as a result of the failed optional) and one guy was doing one side all by himself while my friend and I were double-teaming our side's gateway. This was before s7 and the power creep that came from the reputation system btw. Anyway when our gateway popped we hit evasive and rushed over to the other guy as he was busy getting gangbanged by spheres and probes. We arrived in the nick of time to give him support and save him from a respawn timer. We then went on to beat Donatra and it took AAAAGES but we got there in the end. At several points we definitely had to boost each other's morale in doing so but in the end it was worth it- I am pretty sure I got prototype deflector tech out of that.

    I guess the moral of both our stories is that teamwork and communication matter more than anything. Nowadays, I dunno I haven't had anything near that kind of experience. STFs seem pretty businesslike now - in, out, gone in 5 mins almost (I've done some FAST runs of ISE for example, where there was still over 10mins left on the timer. Cure as well, surprisingly - I think I beat that with a PUG this weekend in about 5 mins. That's, like, never happened to me before). If you communicate at all it's to GG at the end, when by the time you've sent the message half the team has already left the map...
  • eradicator84eradicator84 Member Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    If you're playing STFs solely for optionals... then imo you're doing it wrong.

    My comment to people who rage about fail teams/tactics has always been "lol, then don't pug"
    Having sub par performers on a team can help keep your wits about and make it interesting, vs same old each round.
    Expecting everyone to be of the same skill set, gear quality, load out, age, mental capacity or have knowledge of all the mission specifics as yourself is a recipe for disappointment.

    Want the same old space bar mash fest each time, get yourself in pre mades and stop moaning.


    One time in an stf we'd failed optional for some reason or other and a guy was raging and said he'd just sit at spawn until we failed the mission.
    I rallied the team and we pulled together and we got to the end boss fight. By which time the moaner had moved forward and was helping attack the boss.
    He was pretty quite after that and I was chuffed that the team had pulled through regardless of the moron.
    Part of the fun and challenge of pugging.

    @OP idea of having no penalty:
    In that case, how often might you queue for a pug match and get thrown into an already failing mission as someone else already bailed previously? Cause I'm sure you'd like that just as much...
    (I got this last night, got stuck in though and burned through it and completed without optional)

    If anyone will listen then try teaching players tactics so next time they won't suck so much. Help yourself by helping them.


    +1 to sander233 post above
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    stofsk wrote: »
    How does that actually work out of curiosity?

    You tell me! :P Seriously, even though people persistently keep saying it's all random, I noticed enough times the game *does* award you according to your efforts. And if everyone around you really sucks, chances are you finish 1st place on it.
    What I'm talking about though is somewhat different: what if nobody communicated in your particular example? Like try as you might, nothing you were saying was being heeded and nobody even acknowledged your chat?

    I have disabled voice-chat. For one, at some point I got like 10 little mics undearneath my chat, that just wouldn't go away; and, for two, got tired of ppl yelling on chat. Cuz that's the other side: just because someone has a loud mouth, doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. I remember this guy in ISE, continually yelling: "There's a new tactic now: we need to kill the spheres first!" Naturally, ppl just ignored him, did it the old-fashioned way, and got the Optional easily. Or someone insisting we use Tractor Beam Repulsors on the spheres.

    The morale of this story?! Team chat is generally fail too; except for teams that actually *chose* to be together, and use chat as a means to coordinate properly. In a pug, however, chat tends to be equally chaotic as the match itself.
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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So a mission will fail if one probe makes it through. Right......
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  • kargisterkargister Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I remember life before the leaver penalty. People would come in and rage quit even before the optional was failed, or maybe that was just them trolling. One guy told one of the team he didn't have enough accolade points and quit saying we could never finish. While we didn't get the optional we did 4man the stf to completion.

    With the leaver penalty in place I may see some bad pugs through to the end, but at least I don't have to deal with a bunch of epeeners looking to feel good about themselves by putting others down.

    That said, I'm not entirely against where the OP is coming from. There are some seriously bad pugs out there, and it always get worse on the weekends. My advice? Avoid the stf pug runs on the weekends if you don't want to bring pain on yourself.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Do not do pugs, problem solved.

    When I do a pug, I go in not expecting anything other than myself doing most of the work.

    It is the OP that it the problem....
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  • talore003talore003 Member Posts: 49
    edited September 2013
    The only one I can think of I warped out on was a Conduit run where 3 were AFK/leeching. So me and the others left em there heh.
  • jermbotjermbot Member Posts: 801 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Ok, so what you people are saying is that when queued with a trainwreck of a group that is destined to failure, the best thing to do is to full impulse off somewhere and go afk.

    That's an interesting interpretation of the limited data available, lets re-examine your original post.
    As soon as the first probe went through the gate, I quickly disabled the wifi on my computer and went outside to play with the dog. When i came back, I couldn't queue up to try again due to a leaver penalty.

    Nope, I'm sorry, your interpretation is not supported by the available data. In this case you bailed out like a whiny little girl long before it could be considered clear that the group was 'destined to failure.'

    You do raise one point worth considering. What can we do to track and increase penalties for AFK players?
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2013
    So, I'm sitting here with a leaver penalty after a really bad Khitomer Vortex run. No one but me was trying to cover probes, and I did not make it to the gate in time to stop the first probe from the other side. This was after telling the two nitwits on the other side to get their probes in team chat. They either ignored me or could not understand English. As soon as the first probe went through the gate, I quickly disabled the wifi on my computer and went outside to play with the dog. When i came back, I couldn't queue up to try again due to a leaver penalty.

    We should be able to bail on bad groups as soon as the optional fails.

    There was no way that I was going to sit there and deal with the headache of guarding two sides. I don't care if it can be done by some people with ease. That is irrelevant to me.

    So I was faced with the following rational choices:

    1. Let the probes through so that the mission fails, thereby putting me on timer for Khitomer Vortex.

    2. Bail on the failgroup and get a leaver penalty for ALL stfs.


    I had hoped that by cutting the wifi on my computer, I would fool the game into treating it as a simple disconnect but, alas, that did not work. Now that I know that I cannot bail without the leaver penalty, then that leaves #1 as the best choice.

    In the future, I will be using option #1 in such a situation. I can use tractor beam repulsors to speed things along, I suppose.

    But SERIOUSLY, we should be able to bail on groups as soon as the optional fails.

    Thank you for reading.

    Dear turtlehead:

    Get over it, it happens and it's not the end of the world.
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Join eSTF channel and watch your afks disappear!


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  • elessymelessym Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    'Bail out' = vb tr 'What you do with greedy banks, so they can continue to give themselves hundreds of millions in bonusses, right after they failed epically, and plunged the world into financial chaos.'

    'Bale (out)' = vb intr 'To extricate oneself from an unpleasant situation.'

    Wow. Funniest post of the day.
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • robeasomrobeasom Member Posts: 1,911 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    IMO the OP is the reason a leaver penalty is needed. just because he failed the optional he threw his little fit and unplugged his wi-fi. Fair enough what he could have done was explain to the other players what they were doing wrong. Who knows if he encouraged them they may have responded. I have played KASE and ISE and quite frankly I have took on probe duty and quite frankly I'm not high on DPS but if you can't stop the probes then your build is also wrong.

    IMO your one step below a leecher the only way you should AFK or warp out is if the team is really bad not responding to any attempt to communicate with them and/or there a group of leechers/afkers

    I never had to leave a PUG yet and will still PUG since the fed fleet is very thin at the moment
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  • puttenhamputtenham Member Posts: 1,052 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i will certainly sympathize with the op.. i got stuck in two crappy teams yesterday for ISE.. i mean, at this point in the game, there is no excuse for not knowing how to play these stf's.. and im sick of newbies not getting their legging under them in the normal versions..

    and as for all of those saying the optional doesnt matter, it does... jesus, why have it in game then... it awards a chance for more marks, more (better) gear, and more nodes or whatever they are..

    i can understand a bad group/bad chemistry here and there, but lately, its been redonkulous.. lets just take the optional out of the equation here for a second.. it took us almost an hour to clear a 20 minute stf, cause we had two peeps not doing what they were supposed too, and they were not listening to how to do it.. (thus refusing to learn)..

    so.. do i think bailing is ok.. no... i never do, unless it is clear there is no chance for finishing the stf.. but 90 percent of the time i stick it throught..

    i think the op went about this in the wrong way.. what should happen, is the peramiters in which you can access the "elite" stf's needs to change.. ie, maybe you need 3 achievments before you can access them (one for getting it done in a certain amount of time, one for getting the optional in regular mode, and one for playing regular mode a certain amount of times)..

    the answer isnt how can we get out of a crappy stf, but rather, how do we raise the quality of players in "elite stf's"
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    timezarg wrote: »
    Nobody seems to have said that. Everyone's saying either 'you chose to pug, deal with the consequences' or 'stick with the group and fight it out'.

    If you really despise 'fail groups', don't pug the queues. Join an active fleet and organize private matches. Make friends and organize private matches with them.

    ^^ Best post in the thread. Succinct, to the point, and apodictic.
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  • roxbadroxbad Member Posts: 695
    edited September 2013
    druhin wrote: »
    kick players who deliberately fail the optional, either via ignorance, lack of skill or both

    Maybe people should be kicked from the forums for failing word comprehension or logic?
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    puttenham wrote: »
    i will certainly sympathize with the op.. i got stuck in two crappy teams yesterday for ISE.. i mean, at this point in the game, there is no excuse for not knowing how to play these stf's.. and im sick of newbies not getting their legging under them in the normal versions..

    Glad you brought this up. See, the thing of it is, the 'Normal' STF doesn't look anything like the 'Elite' one. I got queued in one, the other day, by accident. At first I thought the mission was bugged or something, LOL, as all the Cubes were gone. Then a fleet member explained to me I was probably in a 'Normal' (and I was, judging by the like 20 Marks or so I got).

    Antway, tl:dr: they should make the 'Normal' missions look *exactly* the same as the 'Elite' ones: just easier (less stingy Borg). That way ppl can practise, meaningfully, and then try 'Elites' when they're ready.

    This was ISN, btw; haven't tried the others on 'Normal,' but I bet they're different too.
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  • cabezadetortugacabezadetortuga Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Oh, and the word you're looking for is 'bale.'

    'Bail out' = vb tr 'What you do with greedy banks, so they can continue to give themselves hundreds of millions in bonusses, right after they failed epically, and plunged the world into financial chaos.'

    'Bale (out)' = vb intr 'To extricate oneself from an unpleasant situation.'


    Nitpicking grammar and spelling on internet forums is the last refuge of a feeble intellect.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Here is irony: Said bad group... You make up 1/5'th of that group...

    So basically you suck as much as they do, and deserve to be punished for it.
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  • druhindruhin Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    roxbad wrote: »
    Maybe people should be kicked from the forums for failing word comprehension or logic?

    Not sure what you are referring to. I am not a native speaker of the English language, so forgive me if my sentiment came off wrong.

    My point is, when a single individual deliberately fails the optional, the rest of us in the group should be given the option to kick said individual from the group. Should the rest of the group carry the guy who deliberately failed it for the rest of us, so that this guy gets all the cool rewards in the end?

    In essence; He screws up, we carry him through, he gets rewarded. If you deliberately cause such issues for the rest of the group, you should get zero rewards.

    Using ISE as an example; Person A in group explains the strategy (10% rule for instance), which most of the group agrees upon. Person B decides to ignore strategy and destroy a generator prematurely. Person A asks Person B why he did it, and Person B remains silent. Meanwhile, probes are incoming, Nanite Spheres start to heal transformer, optional failed.

    The team's options:

    1. Complete the STF without optional, and stuck with a guy who won't follow commands

    2. Leave STF incurring penalty for all, and no rewards

    The game already has a KICK command for team members. Why is this option not enabled for public (auto-grouped) teams?
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Oh, and the word you're looking for is 'bale.'

    'Bail out' = vb tr 'What you do with greedy banks, so they can continue to give themselves hundreds of millions in bonusses, right after they failed epically, and plunged the world into financial chaos.'

    'Bale (out)' = vb intr 'To extricate oneself from an unpleasant situation.'

    You forgot the other definition of 'Bale (out)': to go completely ballistic during the filming of a scene for "Terminator Salvation".:P
  • thestargazethestargaze Member Posts: 1,017 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    So bailing on a group because they fail the optional should be acceptable behavior? Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Sabotaging the STF by not helping your team finish it through afking or causing the STF to fail is horrendous behavior. My worst STF experience was due to some elitist jerk quitting an STF because the optional failed and the rest painfully did the STF with 4 people. My recommendation is team only with people that you know since PUGging has the problem of sometimes teaming up with people that don't have a clue how to do the STF properly. I can't see you specifically stating that you will personally sabotage a STF will go well with any decent STO player.

    I agree,.. happen to me as well.
  • cabezadetortugacabezadetortuga Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Obviously, most of you people who are responding have difficulties with reading comprehension.

    There was no picking up of the slack that was going to rescue the STF I was talking about in the original posting.

    Because NO ONE other than myself was even TRYING to pick up the probes, then the only way that the group could avoid failing the mission would have been for me to park by the gate and stop the probes from both directions; something which I outright refuse to do. I am not going to do that because I am too good for that nonsense. A Khitomer Vortex run in which someone has to park by the vortex to stop the probes is going to be an inefficient and sloppy run. Ugly. Ugly. Ugly.

    Allow me to reiterate this for some of you slower people: NO ONE WAS STOPPING THE PROBES. Such a group is 100% guaranteed to fail. One can verify this by simply counting. At two probes per wave per side with two sides, it only takes three waves for the mission to fail. Even if one side (mine) is stopping its probes, the number of probes that reaches the gate from the opposite side increases each time a transformer is taken out over there, thereby inching closer to failure with each step. If one side is not stopping its probes, then the mission is likely to fail on the 5th wave.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for not wanting to stick around for a 5th wave failure.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for looking up and realizing that no one else was covering probes.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for holding the opinion that you need to have a mission memorized forwards and backwards before you even THINK about entering it on ELITE.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for not wanting to babysit novices on ELITE.

    Who are these people? Who are these deficient beings that enter an ELITE STF without the slightest clue about how to do them?
  • codewarrior316codewarrior316 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Don't use the que and this isn't a problem... there are plenty channels available for private teams and those you can bail on without cd - though, you will probably find you won't need to. "PublicEliteSTF" is far better than the que, tho some would claim it comes with its own issues but that is easily avoided really. Not seeing any LFMs? Create your own. You pretty much always will save more time on the mission than forming up and practically guarantee success save the occasional ground or goof perhaps.

    There are better private channels but often the form up time is greater than the time saved in mission due to exclusivity (smaller number of subscribers) and clics, it really just depends - "DPS-5000" and "DPS-11,000" most notably. You can get started by asking for a test in PESTF I suppose if you care to try but if you can't hold off all probes in KASE you probably don't have the DPS to qualify.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Obviously, most of you people who are responding have difficulties with reading comprehension.



    mmmmm, endearing.
    Allow me to reiterate this for some of you slower people: NO ONE WAS STOPPING THE PROBES.


    So, why weren't you doing it?


    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for not wanting to stick around for a 5th wave failure.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for looking up and realizing that no one else was covering probes.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for holding the opinion that you need to have a mission memorized forwards and backwards before you even THINK about entering it on ELITE.

    EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for not wanting to babysit novices on ELITE.

    Who are these people? Who are these deficient beings that enter an ELITE STF without the slightest clue about how to do them?



    And excuse me for not being impressed at all with your lack of spine.




    I had a spirited discussion some time ago with an estimable poster on these fora regarding ESTFs.

    We ended up agreeing on the substantive point.

    You enter a pug, and consider yourself a decent player, then its on you and no-one else.

    YOU do the best you can.

    YOU have the opportunity to test yourself in an arena where the odds are stacked against you.

    YOU might fail.



    As for your posts in this thread, I'm afraid your constant suggestion that we don't understand your point is misplaced.

    We understand perfectly. We just think you're wrong.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,434 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    druhin wrote: »
    My point is, when a single individual deliberately fails the optional, the rest of us in the group should be given the option to kick said individual from the group. Should the rest of the group carry the guy who deliberately failed it for the rest of us, so that this guy gets all the cool rewards in the end?

    Yeah; except you don't define 'deliberate.' Ay, there's the rub, as determining deliberation -- gross miscarriages of duty notwithstanding -- is as good as undoable.

    Also, I'll let you in on some human psychology: often failing the Optional is not a true measure of a team's overall fail, but rather the result of a dynamic in which each individual member assumes 'The others will take care of it, for sure.' Ironically, this behavior occurs more frequently when the overall quality of the team is better. For instance, I was in KASE, the other day; and all went well. We were working on a gate, when I look around and suddenly notice a few probes getting dangerously far ahead. I rush to them, but was too late: 1 of them had made it thru. I got pissed at first, and thought: "Damn! Can't believe they let that probe thru!" Then I quickly realized I myself am part of the 'they' to others!

    This is a rather common phenomenon in psychology. If you've fallen into the water, and several people ashore, that's when your chances of drowning are the highest, as everyone is waiting for 'the other person' to jump in and rescue you -- hence, no one does. Your best bet is when only a single person is nearby (as he/she has no choice but to help you).

    The point being: in Elites, never just assume a certain task is already being taken care of (especially when the others appear to be rather good). Their failure is ultimately as much yours as it is theirs.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,951 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Druhin, if one is too inexperienced to know what to do, the failure is not "deliberate" - deliberate failure implies that one intends to fail.

    As in bailing on a team because they missed an optional goal, thus deliberately attempting to ensure the team's overall failure.

    Cabeza, we can read just fine. The team didn't make an optional goal - so you decided that must mean they couldn't possibly succeed at the overall goal, and rather than try to help them do so, you jumped ship. You quit on the team. And now you want to be able to do so without repercussions.

    You are exactly why I don't bother learning how to do STFs. Why try, when my first mistake is going to be greeted by elitists like yourself quitting, leaving me to fend for myself with no one to help me learn? Easier not to play them at all. Sure, that means one day you'll find yourself running out of people to team with, but that seems to be what you're after, so I guess that's okay.
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  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Druhin, if one is too inexperienced to know what to do, the failure is not "deliberate" - deliberate failure implies that one intends to fail.

    As in bailing on a team because they missed an optional goal, thus deliberately attempting to ensure the team's overall failure.

    Cabeza, we can read just fine. The team didn't make an optional goal - so you decided that must mean they couldn't possibly succeed at the overall goal, and rather than try to help them do so, you jumped ship. You quit on the team. And now you want to be able to do so without repercussions.

    You are exactly why I don't bother learning how to do STFs. Why try, when my first mistake is going to be greeted by elitists like yourself quitting, leaving me to fend for myself with no one to help me learn? Easier not to play them at all. Sure, that means one day you'll find yourself running out of people to team with, but that seems to be what you're after, so I guess that's okay.

    Yea... You are coming into an STF with me... Feel free to make all the mistakes you have to in order to learn...

    I like your attitude.
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