not really sure how you can even equate the two. one is an obstacle in an instance, another is an obstacle in game design. not even on the same plain, but thanks for you opinion.
It's just the environment bro. You can build around it on most ships unless you rock a carrier that is. And even then use jump and tractor. Or... Just let the target go and go after someone else.
You got a good attitude about it I think. It's just one of those things man.
How is it any different then? Unless they are actually exploiting the limitation - by getting around it in some fashion while it still applies to you - is it not just a case of being outmaneuvered? Is it not entirely possible for somebody to attempt to do it - in a less maneuverable ship, with less skill, etc, etc, etc - and for you to shred them regardless?
point taken. tbh i hadn't really thought of it that way.
not having a more appropriate z axis is a limitation in the game and cannot be fixed with turn consoles and or the sort. whereas turn left to right can be increased with consoles\traits\choice of ships\ect.
i will have to just accept this fact and that people will use this limitation to their advantage.
seriously though i find it to be hilarious watching a cruiser try that 'tactic' -as some will call it- against an escort.
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
The people that tend to moan about spiraling are always the escort pilots.
- Who are also the ones that spiral.
- Who are the only ship without some buffing can spiral easily.
- Who would do the exact same thing if they had too.
I hate it when somebody spirals when i'm trying to kill them. I feel cheated. Specially when they then claim an overwhelming amount of skill as their reason for survival.
Do I like it? Nah. Would I call it an exploit? Nah. Stupid is as stupid does - F Gump's Mum.
interesting fact. yes i have an escort or two. i also fly sci ships and cruisers. which btw happen to use beams and that my friends is the best counter to spiraling.
another interesting fact, is that since i don't like it, i don' t do it. but since it seems the consensus is that it's ok and normal, maybe i will change my tactics.
but i appreciate your input thank you.
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
Yeah...I used to spiral upwards like everyone else. Then I heard about this really underground idea (you've never heard of it, they are just that underground), of people spiraling down.
So I spiral down now, it's much cooler. #HipsterMimey
:P
LOL! it's already been said that spiraling up is best due to the fact your ship wont be in the way of your view screen. :P
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
LOL! it's already been said that spiraling up is best due to the fact your ship wont be in the way of your view screen. :P
That tendency for folks to look forward, left, right, sometimes even back, and down...but not up...is something that can oft be "exploited" as a tactic. It's not just that it's easier to attack down - but for that same reason - folks are often caught unaware by somebody coming in from that arc...
Basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) are tactical movements performed by fighter aircraft during air combat maneuvering
The idea behind the spiral remains the same. Note that there is also a more general version of the maneuver, the rolling scissor. The idea is to move in such a manner that the enemy has to follow you to keep in range, but then also that following you leads to difficulty in getting a clean shot.
Again, the only thing that true 3D space combat would change is that a rolling scissor would be the least of your maneuvering worries. So long as a narrow forward firing arc and significant momentum work against you, the rolling scissor will be a tool available to those defending against you.
as to tractor beams being a counter. LOL only 3 points in inertia dampers will negate the effects of all but the strongest and properly spec'd tractor beams, especially if you gain more than 5k distance from it.
5k is the maximum range of the tractor beam anyway. Inertial dampers will decrease the penalties of a tractor beam, but in my experience it doesn't take much in Graviton Generators or Aux power to decrease the enemy maneuverability by enough. You don't need to hold the enemy still--Tractor Beams shouldn't be allowed to do that without serious specialization anyway--you just need to keep them from getting away. Just make sure that their Attack Pattern Omega is on cooldown.
LOL QQ about simply flying your ship now. All I can say is LOLOLOL. I think it's all been said in 4 pages. Protip for the noobs: build your escort primarily based on speed and turn and see how fast you can pwn someone spiraling. I actually love seeing these fail fawscorts that rely on the high defense of shooting while spiraling. When they finally pop it's all the more sweet.
If they are spiraling after their battery or whatever other skill wears off odds are they have their engine power on high and in this situation are less survivable in other aspects and less likely to kill you. My sci scort likes chasing spiral er's as well. Taking away their apo, aux2damp, and epte1 stacks stops their spiral fast. An aux charged scan along with a double tapped bo2 and apb3 allows my load to be blown all over the so called spiral er.
Spiraling is in no way an exploit or weak use of game mechanics. Anyone that qq's about "circle jerking" simply has chosen to not adopt the build or skills necessary to defeat them. And yes I defend this tactic and those who manage to elude me using this tactic I tip my hat to them being the pilot that survived. I find that people flying sci ships are the ones that typically cry about the spiraling because they are upset about their CC builds being negated. I mean with so much TRIBBLE console junk in this game and with how fast ships can pop under focus fire can one be blamed for spiraling and flying defensively?
LOL QQ about simply flying your ship now. All I can say is LOLOLOL. I think it's all been said in 4 pages. Protip for the noobs: build your escort primarily based on speed and turn and see how fast you can pwn someone spiraling. I actually love seeing these fail fawscorts that rely on the high defense of shooting while spiraling. When they finally pop it's all the more sweet.
If they are spiraling after their battery or whatever other skill wears off odds are they have their engine power on high and in this situation are less survivable in other aspects and less likely to kill you. My sci scort likes chasing spiral er's as well. Taking away their apo, aux2damp, and epte1 stacks stops their spiral fast. An aux charged scan along with a double tapped bo2 and apb3 allows my load to be blown all over the so called spiral er.
Spiraling is in no way an exploit or weak use of game mechanics. Anyone that qq's about "circle jerking" simply has chosen to not adopt the build or skills necessary to defeat them. And yes I defend this tactic and those who manage to elude me using this tactic I tip my hat to them being the pilot that survived. I find that people flying sci ships are the ones that typically cry about the spiraling because they are upset about their CC builds being negated. I mean with so much TRIBBLE console junk in this game and with how fast ships can pop under focus fire can one be blamed for spiraling and flying defensively?
i hardly feel that posting an opinion and asking others for theirs is considered QQ'ing, but thank you for your opinion.
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
i hardly feel that posting an opinion and asking others for theirs is considered QQ'ing, but thank you for your opinion.
It is in the context of this guy on my friends list killing you in Kerrat and then coming here almost immediately starting a topic. Yeah it may not be direct QQ but I would say it's more subtle form of it.
That being said if you are flying another escort you should be able to catch spiralers. I have a build on a fleet ha'feh which is an otherwise slower escort that can catch almost any other escort short of a full on speed build on a corvette. I build my escorts primarily based on speed and turn 1st then shields 2nd. This build has a variety of practical applications that range from offensive heavy "balled up" combat all the way to catching "spiraling" ships. The "combat speed" or impulse mod is literally just as important as the turn rate you are getting.
Pm me or mail me in game and i will give you the exact build from spec to console to boff layout of this build. It still does leave room for just the right amount of dmg resist and shields and the he1 heal. I will be happy to describe each of it's purposes and how one relates to the other and even give you some moves to keep your dual heavies forward on them. At some point you have to make a few moves besides a simple circle jerk following path though. Handle is @tron4eternity
snip\
edit: post thread; 1500 views and many comments shows me that there is some interest in this subject.
however after some helpful posts and a couple enlightening ones i may have to recant my previous statements and review my opinion on this matter, as the majority of you seem to feel, while it's rather annoying, it cannot be considered an exploit to spiral as it is part of the game design and working as intended.
i thank you all for your comments and opinions!
see you in game
it is possible my opinion is invalid and i will reconsider this matter on my own time.
i am thankful to all that posted but consider this matter to be at it's conclusion and you will not hear any more outbursts from me on This subject anyway. :P
ashgrey i apologize for insinuating you may be a beginner and suggesting you are exploiting current game design good or bad. i will say as much in zone chat when we meet again.
thanks again all! see you in game
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
I remember using the spiral a long time ago in my klink battle cruisers as a attack tactic, Beam boat, id start a spiral, and many escorts would stop, go into reverse, and pivot backwards to keep me in arc, which also meant I had a full broad side on one shield facing. And other cruisers would get locked into the spiral, and it would become a war of who's facing drops first.
But you'll never get up as in a jump, it would be silly, instantly changing altitude. now being able to change our pitch a full 360, yhea it would be nice, but with inertia, and how turning works, your not removing the spiral, just changing what axis its being done on, and opening your self up for a whole other world of hurt with narrow fire weapons. with enough speed, and turn you could simply loop your way out of firing arcs without even needing a spiral, and the possibilities for rolling shields facings to spread out incoming fire across them.
I've seen a cap and hold were the spiraling was being uses to attack too, mainly with torps and mines, were thy would spiral up, launch, spiral away, spin back down, fire something else, it was...amusing, but did keep them out of my recluses front 90 arc most of the time.
But think for a moment about what you see happening now, then imagine that someone could do the same in a 360 degree direction, and curve it. think people are evasive now, just wait, descent did this, 360 degree rolling movement, way back.
I really think that if you sit and think about what's frustrating you now, and then put it into a 360 degree environment, were you still have to fight inertia, and turn speed, you'll find that it wouldn't solve the problem, and would likely exasperate it.
By example, suddenly speed compare to target is important, as is turn, how far away they are, how fast they are turning, their degrees of motion compared to yours, are you too fast or turn too fast, will you over track, under track, how fast can they roll their ship. I just feel its opening up a whole can of worms of things that you'll find very unpleasant.
But I will say this threads given me a thought about slamming reverse in my cruisers, and popping evasive when I have a escort right on my TRIBBLE I cant shake.
Well if all else fails you can still pull off a talon :P
If that's a Talon.
Is being blown up once then cloaking for the entire match to verbally abuse people a "Dagger" now?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Reminds me of when I got reported for my CRF3 being too powerful against a team that didn't carry TT. I wasn't even in my tac scort but my sci scort (no APA). I tried explaining how it works in a all cannon build but only got called a cheater more lol.
i'm guessing you were referring to the post you quoted; in case you weren't i would like to clarify.
Exploits have never been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.
On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.
and finally the reason i reevaluated my opinion;
Game mechanics
Taking advantage of the systems that make up the gameplay. A game mechanics exploit is not a bug?it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended.
it's believed to be working as intended.
Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
it is my opinion that spiraling is a exploit. that is to say, that do to to the game design it is taking advantage of limited z axis to stay out of the weapons arc of your opponent.
Spiraling to stay out of your enemy's weapons envelope is an exploit?
You call it an exploit, the Air Force calls it a Rolling Scissors. :rolleyes:
To break out of a Rolling Scissors you either decelerate to turn inside your opponent's spiral to get them inside your weapon's envelope or perform a Split S to disengage.
My Romulan Liberated Borg character made it to Level 30 and beat the (old) Defense of New Romulus with the skill point bug.
Comments
It's just the environment bro. You can build around it on most ships unless you rock a carrier that is. And even then use jump and tractor. Or... Just let the target go and go after someone else.
You got a good attitude about it I think. It's just one of those things man.
point taken. tbh i hadn't really thought of it that way.
not having a more appropriate z axis is a limitation in the game and cannot be fixed with turn consoles and or the sort. whereas turn left to right can be increased with consoles\traits\choice of ships\ect.
i will have to just accept this fact and that people will use this limitation to their advantage.
seriously though i find it to be hilarious watching a cruiser try that 'tactic' -as some will call it- against an escort.
interesting fact. yes i have an escort or two. i also fly sci ships and cruisers. which btw happen to use beams and that my friends is the best counter to spiraling.
another interesting fact, is that since i don't like it, i don' t do it. but since it seems the consensus is that it's ok and normal, maybe i will change my tactics.
but i appreciate your input thank you.
LOL!
That tendency for folks to look forward, left, right, sometimes even back, and down...but not up...is something that can oft be "exploited" as a tactic. It's not just that it's easier to attack down - but for that same reason - folks are often caught unaware by somebody coming in from that arc...
Again, the only thing that true 3D space combat would change is that a rolling scissor would be the least of your maneuvering worries. So long as a narrow forward firing arc and significant momentum work against you, the rolling scissor will be a tool available to those defending against you. 5k is the maximum range of the tractor beam anyway. Inertial dampers will decrease the penalties of a tractor beam, but in my experience it doesn't take much in Graviton Generators or Aux power to decrease the enemy maneuverability by enough. You don't need to hold the enemy still--Tractor Beams shouldn't be allowed to do that without serious specialization anyway--you just need to keep them from getting away. Just make sure that their Attack Pattern Omega is on cooldown.
Spiraling now is just an escape tactic. So one can:
1) spiral better or,
2) fly far away and come back for another hit/alpha.
I usually do option 2. When someone is spiraling with no one following they just look stupid.
Also, when someone is spiraling and you're following, you're letting them control the fight.
I let people escape all the time because either its a trap or its just a waste of time to follow them.
My thought exactly. -What? is it cheating to assault and overrun dug down soldiers in trenches to?
very poor attempt at trolling sir.
your post has no opinion as requested in the OP and is so far off topic is barely makes any sense.
good luck next time.
i suggest to you and future posters to read the thread before posting.
Yes, so much yes
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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Not really.
Not really, but the fact you believe them to be interesting does a lot to explain your motivation in posting the OP.
well at least you included you opinion, though it relates not to the matter at hand.
On the contrary, it relates directly to the matter at hand, which is to imply that the matter at hand is ridiculous (meaning worthy of ridicule).
eta: I appreciate that you do not see it this way, but that is an issue only you can address.
if you care to elaborate on your point rather than ridicule mine it would go further to validate your statement, otherwise you are just trolling.
is it ridiculous for a person to ask opinions from others as to better understand something and possibly reevaluate his\her opinion? i think not.
there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, and yours sir, well it speaks for itself.
When 3 guys are on me, I hit evasive and hit the deck, usually live long enough for my teammates to respawn.
When someone does it to me its just taking the TRIBBLE.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
If they are spiraling after their battery or whatever other skill wears off odds are they have their engine power on high and in this situation are less survivable in other aspects and less likely to kill you. My sci scort likes chasing spiral er's as well. Taking away their apo, aux2damp, and epte1 stacks stops their spiral fast. An aux charged scan along with a double tapped bo2 and apb3 allows my load to be blown all over the so called spiral er.
Spiraling is in no way an exploit or weak use of game mechanics. Anyone that qq's about "circle jerking" simply has chosen to not adopt the build or skills necessary to defeat them. And yes I defend this tactic and those who manage to elude me using this tactic I tip my hat to them being the pilot that survived. I find that people flying sci ships are the ones that typically cry about the spiraling because they are upset about their CC builds being negated. I mean with so much TRIBBLE console junk in this game and with how fast ships can pop under focus fire can one be blamed for spiraling and flying defensively?
i hardly feel that posting an opinion and asking others for theirs is considered QQ'ing, but thank you for your opinion.
It is in the context of this guy on my friends list killing you in Kerrat and then coming here almost immediately starting a topic. Yeah it may not be direct QQ but I would say it's more subtle form of it.
That being said if you are flying another escort you should be able to catch spiralers. I have a build on a fleet ha'feh which is an otherwise slower escort that can catch almost any other escort short of a full on speed build on a corvette. I build my escorts primarily based on speed and turn 1st then shields 2nd. This build has a variety of practical applications that range from offensive heavy "balled up" combat all the way to catching "spiraling" ships. The "combat speed" or impulse mod is literally just as important as the turn rate you are getting.
Pm me or mail me in game and i will give you the exact build from spec to console to boff layout of this build. It still does leave room for just the right amount of dmg resist and shields and the he1 heal. I will be happy to describe each of it's purposes and how one relates to the other and even give you some moves to keep your dual heavies forward on them. At some point you have to make a few moves besides a simple circle jerk following path though. Handle is @tron4eternity
it is possible my opinion is invalid and i will reconsider this matter on my own time.
i am thankful to all that posted but consider this matter to be at it's conclusion and you will not hear any more outbursts from me on This subject anyway. :P
ashgrey i apologize for insinuating you may be a beginner and suggesting you are exploiting current game design good or bad. i will say as much in zone chat when we meet again.
thanks again all! see you in game
Agree on your summary. Annoying but not borked. Even if it was, nothing compared to other things out there right now...
But you'll never get up as in a jump, it would be silly, instantly changing altitude. now being able to change our pitch a full 360, yhea it would be nice, but with inertia, and how turning works, your not removing the spiral, just changing what axis its being done on, and opening your self up for a whole other world of hurt with narrow fire weapons. with enough speed, and turn you could simply loop your way out of firing arcs without even needing a spiral, and the possibilities for rolling shields facings to spread out incoming fire across them.
I've seen a cap and hold were the spiraling was being uses to attack too, mainly with torps and mines, were thy would spiral up, launch, spiral away, spin back down, fire something else, it was...amusing, but did keep them out of my recluses front 90 arc most of the time.
But think for a moment about what you see happening now, then imagine that someone could do the same in a 360 degree direction, and curve it. think people are evasive now, just wait, descent did this, 360 degree rolling movement, way back.
I really think that if you sit and think about what's frustrating you now, and then put it into a 360 degree environment, were you still have to fight inertia, and turn speed, you'll find that it wouldn't solve the problem, and would likely exasperate it.
By example, suddenly speed compare to target is important, as is turn, how far away they are, how fast they are turning, their degrees of motion compared to yours, are you too fast or turn too fast, will you over track, under track, how fast can they roll their ship. I just feel its opening up a whole can of worms of things that you'll find very unpleasant.
But I will say this threads given me a thought about slamming reverse in my cruisers, and popping evasive when I have a escort right on my TRIBBLE I cant shake.
If that's a Talon.
Is being blown up once then cloaking for the entire match to verbally abuse people a "Dagger" now?
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
i'm guessing you were referring to the post you quoted; in case you weren't i would like to clarify.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28online_gaming%29
Exploits have never been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.
On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.
and finally the reason i reevaluated my opinion;
Game mechanics
Taking advantage of the systems that make up the gameplay. A game mechanics exploit is not a bug?it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended.
it's believed to be working as intended.
Simple, no?
lol, do you get your cherries with it too
Priceless
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Spiraling to stay out of your enemy's weapons envelope is an exploit?
You call it an exploit, the Air Force calls it a Rolling Scissors. :rolleyes:
To break out of a Rolling Scissors you either decelerate to turn inside your opponent's spiral to get them inside your weapon's envelope or perform a Split S to disengage.