The flipside of this is also true. The players in Germany can learn some basic English. The OP does have a point. IMO no one should have to learn a different language to play an MMO. What the OP described was probably difficult for everyone.
How many times do people need to restate it in this thread "English is mandatory in German schools"?
Firstly, let me just say, I like the Germans. As a people they are courteous, industrious, and despite what people say, they have a very good sense of humour. I don't have anything against the Germans. However, my understanding of German is basically limited to saying "which way is the beach?" in broken speech; so when I get teamed up in PvP with four Germans, I have absolutely no idea what it is their telling me to do, and we lose. It's not so bad in STFs as people tend to know what the plan is when you start.
So surely there is some method by which if I'm playing STO in English, I can only be teamed with other people also playing in English?
It's that or I have to get used to be scolded in German for losing us the match
EDIT: To avoid any confusion, I imply all language groups would be better off being teamed together for ease of communication. I only single out German speakers for this example because it happened recently.
Also, don't make this about race, it has nothing to do with race. I couldn't give a flying fig what colour your skin is or what country you come from, just what language you speak. Logic dictates a team that can't communicate will not operate at peak efficiency.
Guten tag, Herr Edward.
CSE, bitte?
Hehehe.... German isn't hard to learn. It uses the same grammer as english(mostly).
I think we should all be required to use Romulan in STO.
But seriously, down with cultural imperialism and cultural genocide. Lazy English monoglots need to stop pretending that "the sun never sets on the British Empire," that everyone watches Hollywood movies in the original English (and that they don't even require subtitles), and that everyone can understand English if you just talk slowly and loudly enough. Just bite the bullet and become multilingual. Being at least competent in a second language ought to be a requirement for graduation from secondary school.
And yeah, German and English are both Germanic languages. Latin had a lot of direct (and indirect, through Norman French) influence on English vocabulary, but the basic structure of the language, the grammar, and even the most commonly-used words, all derive from Germanic. Modern High German is very easy for a native English speaker to learn.
I think we should all be required to use Romulan in STO.
But seriously, down with cultural imperialism and cultural genocide. Lazy English monoglots need to stop pretending that "the sun never sets on the British Empire," that everyone watches Hollywood movies in the original English (and that they don't even require subtitles), and that everyone can understand English if you just talk slowly and loudly enough. Just bite the bullet and become multilingual. Being at least competent in a second language ought to be a requirement for graduation from secondary school.
And yeah, German and English are both Germanic languages. Latin had a lot of direct (and indirect, through Norman French) influence on English vocabulary, but the basic structure of the language, the grammar, and even the most commonly-used words, all derive from Germanic. Modern High German is very easy for a native English speaker to learn.
I would not say its laziness only knowing 1 language and why presume its an English person complaining? You do know English is the second most spoken language in the world right? Its spoken in 60 different countries (Yes I did have to look it up) so the OP could be from any 1 of those countries.
I would not say its laziness only knowing 1 language and why presume its an English person complaining? You do know English is the second most spoken language in the world right? Its spoken in 60 different countries (Yes I did have to look it up) so the OP could be from any 1 of those countries.
If you read the thread, the OP describes himself as a British lawyer. So it's not an assumption.
If you read the thread, the OP describes himself as a British lawyer. So it's not an assumption.
Fair enough, I did not read the whole thread, thanks for pointing that out. I just got annoyed at a the "British Empire" remark tbh and people only speaking 1 language is lazy.
just keep the sentence to be ttranslated as something like "I don't speak your language" or copy what they say and translate it from that lang to english (if you have time).
The tone of this thread is unnecessarily adversarial. Please cease and desist any and all name-calling and flaming.
This is not about Germans, English lawyers, or anything else except the perception of a language barrier and a suggestion about how to deal with it.
As to the OP, I think the option to team with or without localized clients is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as it is not the default, and as long as it could be turned off, what would be the harm in it? It's no different from the notion of internationalized servers, which we have seen in other MMO's.
Teamwork does require communication. It's not enough to "know what to do" and even that presumes that you got enough experience with a scenario to know how to beat it -- probably in a team that understood each other.
Being able to group players into language groups would be very beneficial for beginners who have never played PvP or team PvE scenarios. On the contrary, a polyglot of languages would be very confusing for those people and might actually put them off trying to team up again.
So I think it's a reasonable idea, even though I don't believe Cryptic and PWE would decide to do that.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The tone of this thread is unnecessarily adversarial. Please cease and desist any and all name-calling and flaming.
This is not about Germans, English lawyers, or anything else except the perception of a language barrier and a suggestion about how to deal with it.
Respectfully, the thread was entitled "Can you please not team me with German Players?" before it was moderated and renamed. The unedited post from the OP was specifically directed at German players.
Yes there was also a language barrier element to it, but that was where the emphasis was. As the OP professes to be a highly educated lawyer (myself being a lowly medic), he should have known to expect a visceral reaction from other community members however "well intentioned" you or he may think they are.
As to the OP, I think the option to team with or without localized clients is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as it is not the default, and as long as it could be turned off, what would be the harm in it? It's no different from the notion of internationalized servers, which we have seen in other MMO's.
Actually, it is. We don't have internationalised servers. Everyone plays together equally. There are no downtrodden poorly maintained European server ghettos like the other MMOs of which you speak (unless you count the proxies) and nor should there be.
The harm, would be to further damage the queues by making it so that only "localised" players can team with "localised" players for events in the public queues. Therefore increasing wait times and server loads for everyone involved, not unlike the KDF side and not unlike the KDF side, this would lead to content not being played by players who would be entitled to play it because people would engage this option and exclude others from their matches.
The point is not that it "could" be turned off, more of "would" it be turned off, should it be implemented and I am willing to bet that should it be implemented a large proportion of players would turn it on and never turn it off again. Therefore enabling it by default.
There is no need for this to be implemented. The private queues allow people to discriminate who plays and who doesn't fine as it is. No need for additional restrictions.
Teamwork does require communication. It's not enough to "know what to do" and even that presumes that you got enough experience with a scenario to know how to beat it -- probably in a team that understood each other.
And segregating the server into localised versions and English versions doesn't solve the problem of people not paying attention, not knowing what to do and generally messing it up for others. In fact you could make the problem worse by having people only download the English localisation and not be able to read and understand the basic screens in the game that explain the scenario and also be unable to read the communication.
Being able to group players into language groups would be very beneficial for beginners who have never played PvP or team PvE scenarios. On the contrary, a polyglot of languages would be very confusing for those people and might actually put them off trying to team up again.
Beginners in any scenario regardless of language are likely to be a liability toward the team. Do you advocate the creation of a "noob" server or an option to exclude "noobs" as well. No thought not.
Again, this is the job of fleets and private channels. This is clearly functioning at least reasonably well already with the current level of players who have English as a second language. The game has been multilingual for well over a year and it doesn't need to change now or in the future.
So I think it's a reasonable idea, even though I don't believe Cryptic and PWE would decide to do that.
You might, and others are entitled to disagree. The path to hell is paved with "good intentions" after all and it's not a path I will walk down willingly.
I think the OP's idea could be good for PUGGING, as communication is already lacking in STFs, but the Non English Speaking citizens of STO, would obviously find it difficult for them to understand what is being said, and visa versa.
Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.
Respectfully, the thread was entitled "Can you please not team me with German Players?" before it was moderated and renamed. The unedited post from the OP was specifically directed at German players.
I was sadly unaware of that.
Be that as it may, there are people who are responding in ways that are against the forum rules. I am asking them to stop.
As to the rest, you and I are both entitled to our own opinions. I think you're blowing the idea of grouping localized clients out of proportion. Again my own opinion.
The OP says he was using his experience as an example and that he does not mean to imply he's racist. Obviously some people disagree with him on that score. Okay. But please keep the forum rules in mind and try to keep your responses about whether grouping on localized clients are good, bad, or whatever.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
As to the rest, you and I are both entitled to our own opinions. I think you're blowing the idea of grouping localized clients out of proportion. Again my own opinion.
Perhaps, or perhaps I go by the name of Cassandra and if you know your Classics you might know to what I am referring.
The OP says he was using his experience as an example and that he does not mean to imply he's racist. Obviously some people disagree with him on that score. Okay. But please keep the forum rules in mind and try to keep your responses about whether grouping on localized clients are good, bad, or whatever.
Again with the greatest of respect, have you ever known a racist to actively come out and say "I'm a racist"? I simply suggest that might be the case here however inadvertent it may be.
In addition, my view that I am not alone in holding; is one of the very notion of grouping people together based on localisations is a racist one. I have expressed that opinion as within the forum rules as I am able. It may be an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth none the less.
Lazy English monoglots need to stop pretending that "the sun never sets on the British Empire," that everyone watches Hollywood movies in the original English (and that they don't even require subtitles), and that everyone can understand English if you just talk slowly and loudly enough. Just bite the bullet and become multilingual.
Si vous lisze tout le fil, vous auriez ve que je l'ai dit ma langue seconde es le francais.
(EDIT: It seems my keyboard does not like French typographical characters, also if someone here speaks better French, please don't laugh at my attempts from memory :P )
Ego quoque Latinum intelleges. (Well, a little anyway)
Please don't make baseless assumptions based on my nationality or profession. I wouldn't do it to you and it's not conducive to sensible debate.
A debate is a polite exchange of ideas where each party attempt to convince the other of the acceptability or correctness of their point. And argument is an adversarial slanging match where each person refuses to give credence to the point of the other. Can't we keep this as a debate?
Again with the greatest of respect, have you ever known a racist to actively come out and say "I'm a racist"? I simply suggest that might be the case here however inadvertent it may be.
I do not like that implication at all. Seriously, if you are suggesting I am a racist then I am personally offended. Let's not go there.
1. I am part German, my grandparents were German, I do not dislike Germans. I merely happen to not speak German.
2. I have two mixed race sisters (English and West-Indian). I have had to defend them and myself against racism for a great deal of my life.
3. I could make the argument that I have friends who are (insert race here), including a German-Asian mixed race girl. However, I won't rely on that argument as it's too cliche.
Again, seriously, let's avoid any indication of calling anyone racist, veiled or otherwise. Just stop it.
I still think you should learn at least a little bit of german. there's a LOT of german speaking players. If you don't beleive me just pay attention when you see the fly-in messages about lockbox ships....
I still think you should learn at least a little bit of german. there's a LOT of german speaking players. If you don't beleive me just pay attention when you see the fly-in messages about lockbox ships....
Welcher weg ist der strand? :P
(EDIT: to please the moderators, that means "which way is the beach?"... I think)
Hey folks remember this is an english speaking forum and as such, posts should only be done in english.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Welcher weg ist der strand? :P
(EDIT: to please the moderators, that means "which way is the beach?"... I think)
I'm not sure "weg" is the right word there.... maybe, but I'm not sure.
Anyways though, learning German is mostly learning the vocabulary. For example: what does a German call a Tactical Cube?
(most people know what "Hilfe!" means. :P)
About that.... there are some mission where you generally do NOT want to respawn. Breaking the Planet is a good example. The Romulan Temple is another. Why? In these missions, the spawn point is usually nowhere near where you got KOed. Also if you respawn you need to rejoin the group.... on foot, and usually hack your way through enemies to do it. Bad idea.... REALLY bad idea.
I do not like that implication at all. Seriously, if you are suggesting I am a racist then I am personally offended. Let's not go there.
Again, seriously, let's avoid any indication of calling anyone racist, veiled or otherwise. Just stop it.
I will stop calling a spade a spade, when it ceases to be a spade. Not before.
It was not veiled in any sense. To me (and I am not alone in thinking this), the views you and others who support this are espousing are racist. This type of racist attitude and it's exculpation are exactly what is allowing vans to drive around parts of London telling non whites to go home, whilst also allowing non whites to be stopped and arrested for alleged illegal immigration, illegally on the streets of the UK and unarmed Black teenagers to be shot and killed legally in parts of the US. With the first link, the chain is forged.
You are right, your retorts that you are not racist because x and y are not only cliched but they are improvable and in my opinion simply mitigation put forward by a trained lawyer. It is also a fallacy, black people can be racist about other black people and it's still racism.
You are entitled to be offended, I take personal offence to your initial unedited statement and thread title. I take personal offence that it is moderated and the uninformed stand ready to silence. I take personal offence to the fact that I have demonstrated that it is racism as defined in Law by international organisations and still you and others persist with it; not only that, it is tolerated by the powers that be as it doesn't fall into what they "perceive" as racism. Ignorantia juris non excusat.
I have suggested a perfectly valid remedy for your perceived problem as part of this charade of a debate. You ridiculed that in order to put forward your own views of segregation as the only solution. You fail to realise that it would not solve your problem as there would be no guarantee that even English speakers would have been good enough players, or listening to anything being said.
Conversely any benefit that may be perceived for the "foreign" community is moot because they have the same perfectly valid remedy available to them.
If you, or they don't want to use them then you both should accept the logical consequence of your own inaction.
I have friends in this game who use localised clients who speak and write far better English than some of the professed native English speakers here on this forum. They do not need to be banned or segregated from queues just so you can avoid having to communicate with them because you don't think they understand you when in reality they do.
TLDR: Truth hurts, deal with it and your "idea" should be condemned because it's totally flawed.
Why do i use the English client ? Because there are usually things lost in translations and some examples are pretty awkward. Also chat is in English, so you won't have a pure German experience anyway.
But when my English was worse, i might have choosen the German client.
I don't like the proposal.
English only queues would be slightly longer. But what about the localized clients ? If those choose the option to be only grouped with themselves, they would not have enough people to start any instance in reasonable time.
And if they would choose to be grouped with other clients, they might end up mixed with every languege except English. As English is the most common second language, many non native speakers can use it, but that doesn't help, if the German French and Portugese are teamed with each other with everyone fluent enough to use the Enlish client missing.
Then we have the situation that the only queued missions that really require communication are PvP, which already have the biggest population population problem (maybe on par with some ground STFs)
So... bad idea.
But i would like, if messages from the clients (announcements, emoticons, "help") would be displayed in the client version of the receiver, not the sender. Same with item names from links in chat.
Anyways though, learning German is mostly learning the vocabulary. For example: what does a German call a Tactical Cube?
"Taktischer Kubus"
Quite often guesswork works quite well, as many specific words have been taken from other languages anyway. That is even more true for scientific vocabulary and a lot of the technobabble in Star Trek. Without checking the German client :
nanite sphere => Nanitensphaere (the ae should be an a with dots, but the forum software butchers it)
nanite generator => Nanitengenerator
to attack => 1) angreifen 2) attackieren (first is more common, but everyone also knows the second)
Ship classes also retain their names, same with player names and ship names.
Even if your teammates don't speak your language, they might be able to guess, what you are typing (voice chat is harder), try it. Calling out targets should be possible over language barriers.
Welcher weg ist der strand?
Slightly grammatically off, but easily to understand. Would work without any problems.It does indead mean "which way is the beach" but implying that way and beach are the same kind of thing, instead of a way leading to a beach. But as the meaning is pretty obvious, no one would care.
Also, all nouns are capitalized in German, so it would be "Weg".
I have demonstrated that it is racism as defined in Law by international organisations
Oh, you want to start debating relationship between law and racism? Fine.
You have not demonstrated an international legal definition of racism. Firstly, there is no such thing as international law, the closest thing is treaty law, which is defined separately by which ever nations are entering into the treaty; you referred to the United Nations, the United Nations is not a legal body, it is a diplomatic organization with no powers to define or enforce law, although they do regulate their own judicial branch which is the International Court of Justice. The UN has not made any definition of 'racism', however they did define racial discrimination, but this definition has no authority beyond it's academic merit. The ICJ has also not made any ruling regarding the definition of racism or racial discrimination.
Secondly, the only truly binding 'international law' is the law of the European Union, which is some circumstances has jurisdiction over it's member states, the EU has not defined racism or racial discrimination and has always relied upon the advice given by the European Convention on Human Rights. Article 14 of the ECHR does make provision for discrimination as being based on "sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status". So in the eyes of the ECHR, my discrimination based on language would be considered 'discriminatory', however I freely admit such discrimination. I also discriminate on many other grounds both in game and personally. In game I agree with not auto-teaming level 5 players with level 50 players in team PvP events, and personally I believe that women and men should use their own respective lavatories in public places. These forms of discrimination are allowed in England and Wales due to the Human Rights Act 1998 (which only applies to public bodies, individual citizens are free to act how they please within the common law), which makes provision for articles of the ECHR to be adapted for societal functionality. It is such functionality I advocate. (Other EU member states have passed similar legislation when bringing the ECHR into their respective laws).
My complaint meets no European definition of 'racism', at worst it is discrimination, I freely admit that, in fact here's a clarification just for you.
"When playing online video games, I choose to discriminate against people with whom I cannot communicate due to language barrier issues on the side of either party. I do this as I do not feel that it in the present structure of the game it is conducive to team gameplay to play with other language speakers without choice on my part, due to the limitations on the part of the game engine that prevent me from knowing before hand that such a situation is to occur in order to allow me to make adequate preparation for, or retract my intention to partake in the activity.
Were the situation to be such that I were able to either know such an eventuality was to occur, or know it was not to occur I believe that any problems caused by language barriers on the part of either party would be mitigated at the cost of having to manually engage, by conscious decision, in in-game activities with other language speakers with deliberate action on my part.
My opinion on this matter does not extend to outside of online video games, as I feel that when presented with a language barrier between myself and another person in an activity in which we are both physically present, we would both be able to employ alternate means of communication that would sufficiently mitigate any problems that would arise due to an inability to communicate through speech."
tl'dr: Not racist. Don't dislike Germans, but don't speak German, assume other English speakers exist that don't speak Germans, and think that settings for things should default to whichever setting presents the least possible problems, and other setttings should be available by choice.
English only queues would be slightly longer. But what about the localized clients ? If those choose the option to be only grouped with themselves, they would not have enough people to start any instance in reasonable time...
...Calling out targets should be possible over language barriers...
1. I didn't think about that, and it is a massive downside. I don't think it would be fair to diminish the gameplay of non-English speakers in exchange for ease of communication. (Better to lose due to communication issues, then to not play at all.)
2. Someone else suggested that earlier. Are you implying it can actually be done in game? In which case that's solved a great deal of problems. Or are you implying you'd like it to be so? In which case I've already said it's much better than my idea.
2. Someone else suggested that earlier. Are you implying it can actually be done in game? In which case that's solved a great deal of problems. Or are you implying you'd like it to be so? In which case I've already said it's much better than my idea.
I think he meant something like "generator left 10%" should be easy to understand by everyone.
Another possibility that was once discussed long ago in another thread was a short message sytem similar to "World of Tanks" where pushing the F buttons allows people to throw out preset messages to everyone.
Preset of course means they're preset like the emotes are, not that the player can preset new ones.
For example "follow me" lets an icon appear over that player for teammates to see and of course that short message is translated to other languages depending on their localization setting.
When a player selects an enemy target he can also use another shortcut to let the other know he's attacking that target...if he wants to tell them of course.
Also, it's possible to select an ally and then hit the "follow me!" shortcut which means only that partciular player gets the message "edwardianed, follow me!"...or whatever "follow me" in that particular language.
It's not perfect but it's short and to the point.:)
"When playing online video games, I choose to discriminate against people with whom I cannot communicate due to language barrier issues on the side of either party. I do this as I do not feel that it in the present structure of the game it is conducive to team gameplay to play with other language speakers without choice on my part, due to the limitations on the part of the game engine that prevent me from knowing before hand that such a situation is to occur in order to allow me to make adequate preparation for, or retract my intention to partake in the activity."
Were the situation to be such that I were able to either know such an eventuality was to occur, or know it was not to occur I believe that any problems caused by language barriers on the part of either party would be mitigated at the cost of having to manually engage, by conscious decision, in in-game activities with other language speakers with deliberate action on my part.
My opinion on this matter does not extend to outside of online video games, as I feel that when presented with a language barrier between myself and another person in an activity in which we are both physically present, we would both be able to employ alternate means of communication that would sufficiently mitigate any problems that would arise due to an inability to communicate through speech."
You are aware due to the nature of the game provided of the possibility of being teamed with members from other countries who may or may not have an understanding of the same language as you. You are also consciously aware that by partaking in the public queues you are consenting to play with any such individual who is also a member of the same queue; due to the random nature of the queue in question whether they speak your language or not. You accept by partaking in the public queue system that you may be placed in an instance with one or more players with whom you may be unable to communicate with, for whatever reason or who may be unable to play the game effectively.
You accept under the Terms of Service that your use and continued use of the service is "at your own risk" in terms of your interaction with others in this respect.
You are consciously aware that you have the option to create a private queue of an instance of any map for yourself and up to 19 others of your choosing to play as you see fit. You are therefore able by conscious decision, able to discriminate against other players with whom you believe you would be unable to communicate with, allow you to make adequate preparation for such issues or retract your consent to partake in the activity at any time.
You freely admit that your conduct with regard to this and other statements is contrary to anti discrimination laws present in both the USA where the game is based and the UK where you are based and that such conduct is a violation of the Terms of Service which you agreed to be bound to by playing and continuing to use the service.
You freely admit that your idea to create a system would effectively marginalise and restrict gameplay of another group which is also against the law and the terms of service as defined based upon your own needs which you deem superior.
Whilst you and others may debate the issue of the word racism and it's application in this context, which whilst academically correct is rejected. As such a more open definition of bigotry can be applied in this sense and is again freely admitted to and as such will be applied in lieu of racist henceforth.
Translation options are available in game already for large numbers of things including but not limited to, loot drops, skills and bridge officers. Some emotes and other client side automatic typing is usually done in the clients language, this could be made into set translated pieces however the use of such would not apply in all circumstances and could be extremely situational to the point of no use.
Common sense would dictate that a certain amount of give and take with regard to language (in any form) should take place between all involved so as to facilitate better communication however this will not always be possible in every scenario.
Certain items such as help commands when the character is defeated or target calling on specific targets whilst the character is firing, should be immediately apparent but could however be translated locally so that the other members of the team could understand directly. This is unlikely to be of use in PvP however due to the nature of player names.
i dont know about you but most the german's i been grouped with in elite STF's have been the best players and have the best gear and we can usally beat it in 4 min if we have alot of them i really dont care if i can understand them or they can understand me aslong as we get the job done
i dont know about you but most the german's i been grouped with in elite STF's have been the best players and have the best gear and we can usally beat it in 4 min if we have alot of them i really dont care if i can understand them or they can understand me aslong as we get the job done
I agree, some players I know who are "foreign" are also some of the best players I know.
We don't need a system introduced like the one described. It damages everyone.
Comments
How many times do people need to restate it in this thread "English is mandatory in German schools"?
CSE, bitte?
Hehehe.... German isn't hard to learn. It uses the same grammer as english(mostly).
My character Tsin'xing
But seriously, down with cultural imperialism and cultural genocide. Lazy English monoglots need to stop pretending that "the sun never sets on the British Empire," that everyone watches Hollywood movies in the original English (and that they don't even require subtitles), and that everyone can understand English if you just talk slowly and loudly enough. Just bite the bullet and become multilingual. Being at least competent in a second language ought to be a requirement for graduation from secondary school.
And yeah, German and English are both Germanic languages. Latin had a lot of direct (and indirect, through Norman French) influence on English vocabulary, but the basic structure of the language, the grammar, and even the most commonly-used words, all derive from Germanic. Modern High German is very easy for a native English speaker to learn.
I would not say its laziness only knowing 1 language and why presume its an English person complaining? You do know English is the second most spoken language in the world right? Its spoken in 60 different countries (Yes I did have to look it up) so the OP could be from any 1 of those countries.
And how is this even remotely related to your proposal that they should learn it?
Fair enough, I did not read the whole thread, thanks for pointing that out. I just got annoyed at a the "British Empire" remark tbh and people only speaking 1 language is lazy.
http://translate.google.com/
just keep the sentence to be ttranslated as something like "I don't speak your language" or copy what they say and translate it from that lang to english (if you have time).
cheap but it works for me.
The tone of this thread is unnecessarily adversarial. Please cease and desist any and all name-calling and flaming.
This is not about Germans, English lawyers, or anything else except the perception of a language barrier and a suggestion about how to deal with it.
As to the OP, I think the option to team with or without localized clients is not necessarily a bad thing. As long as it is not the default, and as long as it could be turned off, what would be the harm in it? It's no different from the notion of internationalized servers, which we have seen in other MMO's.
Teamwork does require communication. It's not enough to "know what to do" and even that presumes that you got enough experience with a scenario to know how to beat it -- probably in a team that understood each other.
Being able to group players into language groups would be very beneficial for beginners who have never played PvP or team PvE scenarios. On the contrary, a polyglot of languages would be very confusing for those people and might actually put them off trying to team up again.
So I think it's a reasonable idea, even though I don't believe Cryptic and PWE would decide to do that.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Respectfully, the thread was entitled "Can you please not team me with German Players?" before it was moderated and renamed. The unedited post from the OP was specifically directed at German players.
Yes there was also a language barrier element to it, but that was where the emphasis was. As the OP professes to be a highly educated lawyer (myself being a lowly medic), he should have known to expect a visceral reaction from other community members however "well intentioned" you or he may think they are.
Actually, it is. We don't have internationalised servers. Everyone plays together equally. There are no downtrodden poorly maintained European server ghettos like the other MMOs of which you speak (unless you count the proxies) and nor should there be.
The harm, would be to further damage the queues by making it so that only "localised" players can team with "localised" players for events in the public queues. Therefore increasing wait times and server loads for everyone involved, not unlike the KDF side and not unlike the KDF side, this would lead to content not being played by players who would be entitled to play it because people would engage this option and exclude others from their matches.
The point is not that it "could" be turned off, more of "would" it be turned off, should it be implemented and I am willing to bet that should it be implemented a large proportion of players would turn it on and never turn it off again. Therefore enabling it by default.
There is no need for this to be implemented. The private queues allow people to discriminate who plays and who doesn't fine as it is. No need for additional restrictions.
And segregating the server into localised versions and English versions doesn't solve the problem of people not paying attention, not knowing what to do and generally messing it up for others. In fact you could make the problem worse by having people only download the English localisation and not be able to read and understand the basic screens in the game that explain the scenario and also be unable to read the communication.
Beginners in any scenario regardless of language are likely to be a liability toward the team. Do you advocate the creation of a "noob" server or an option to exclude "noobs" as well. No thought not.
Again, this is the job of fleets and private channels. This is clearly functioning at least reasonably well already with the current level of players who have English as a second language. The game has been multilingual for well over a year and it doesn't need to change now or in the future.
You might, and others are entitled to disagree. The path to hell is paved with "good intentions" after all and it's not a path I will walk down willingly.
I hope STO get's better ...
I was sadly unaware of that.
Be that as it may, there are people who are responding in ways that are against the forum rules. I am asking them to stop.
As to the rest, you and I are both entitled to our own opinions. I think you're blowing the idea of grouping localized clients out of proportion. Again my own opinion.
The OP says he was using his experience as an example and that he does not mean to imply he's racist. Obviously some people disagree with him on that score. Okay. But please keep the forum rules in mind and try to keep your responses about whether grouping on localized clients are good, bad, or whatever.
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That's why I informed you of it, as you didn't seem to be aware of it.
Perhaps, or perhaps I go by the name of Cassandra and if you know your Classics you might know to what I am referring.
Again with the greatest of respect, have you ever known a racist to actively come out and say "I'm a racist"? I simply suggest that might be the case here however inadvertent it may be.
In addition, my view that I am not alone in holding; is one of the very notion of grouping people together based on localisations is a racist one. I have expressed that opinion as within the forum rules as I am able. It may be an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth none the less.
Si vous lisze tout le fil, vous auriez ve que je l'ai dit ma langue seconde es le francais.
(EDIT: It seems my keyboard does not like French typographical characters, also if someone here speaks better French, please don't laugh at my attempts from memory :P )
Ego quoque Latinum intelleges. (Well, a little anyway)
Please don't make baseless assumptions based on my nationality or profession. I wouldn't do it to you and it's not conducive to sensible debate.
A debate is a polite exchange of ideas where each party attempt to convince the other of the acceptability or correctness of their point. And argument is an adversarial slanging match where each person refuses to give credence to the point of the other. Can't we keep this as a debate?
Excellent idea.
My character Tsin'xing
I do not like that implication at all. Seriously, if you are suggesting I am a racist then I am personally offended. Let's not go there.
1. I am part German, my grandparents were German, I do not dislike Germans. I merely happen to not speak German.
2. I have two mixed race sisters (English and West-Indian). I have had to defend them and myself against racism for a great deal of my life.
3. I could make the argument that I have friends who are (insert race here), including a German-Asian mixed race girl. However, I won't rely on that argument as it's too cliche.
Again, seriously, let's avoid any indication of calling anyone racist, veiled or otherwise. Just stop it.
My character Tsin'xing
Welcher weg ist der strand? :P
(EDIT: to please the moderators, that means "which way is the beach?"... I think)
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
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Anyways though, learning German is mostly learning the vocabulary. For example: what does a German call a Tactical Cube?
(most people know what "Hilfe!" means. :P)
About that.... there are some mission where you generally do NOT want to respawn. Breaking the Planet is a good example. The Romulan Temple is another. Why? In these missions, the spawn point is usually nowhere near where you got KOed. Also if you respawn you need to rejoin the group.... on foot, and usually hack your way through enemies to do it. Bad idea.... REALLY bad idea.
My character Tsin'xing
I will stop calling a spade a spade, when it ceases to be a spade. Not before.
It was not veiled in any sense. To me (and I am not alone in thinking this), the views you and others who support this are espousing are racist. This type of racist attitude and it's exculpation are exactly what is allowing vans to drive around parts of London telling non whites to go home, whilst also allowing non whites to be stopped and arrested for alleged illegal immigration, illegally on the streets of the UK and unarmed Black teenagers to be shot and killed legally in parts of the US. With the first link, the chain is forged.
You are right, your retorts that you are not racist because x and y are not only cliched but they are improvable and in my opinion simply mitigation put forward by a trained lawyer. It is also a fallacy, black people can be racist about other black people and it's still racism.
You are entitled to be offended, I take personal offence to your initial unedited statement and thread title. I take personal offence that it is moderated and the uninformed stand ready to silence. I take personal offence to the fact that I have demonstrated that it is racism as defined in Law by international organisations and still you and others persist with it; not only that, it is tolerated by the powers that be as it doesn't fall into what they "perceive" as racism. Ignorantia juris non excusat.
I have suggested a perfectly valid remedy for your perceived problem as part of this charade of a debate. You ridiculed that in order to put forward your own views of segregation as the only solution. You fail to realise that it would not solve your problem as there would be no guarantee that even English speakers would have been good enough players, or listening to anything being said.
Conversely any benefit that may be perceived for the "foreign" community is moot because they have the same perfectly valid remedy available to them.
If you, or they don't want to use them then you both should accept the logical consequence of your own inaction.
I have friends in this game who use localised clients who speak and write far better English than some of the professed native English speakers here on this forum. They do not need to be banned or segregated from queues just so you can avoid having to communicate with them because you don't think they understand you when in reality they do.
TLDR: Truth hurts, deal with it and your "idea" should be condemned because it's totally flawed.
Why do i use the English client ? Because there are usually things lost in translations and some examples are pretty awkward. Also chat is in English, so you won't have a pure German experience anyway.
But when my English was worse, i might have choosen the German client.
I don't like the proposal.
English only queues would be slightly longer. But what about the localized clients ? If those choose the option to be only grouped with themselves, they would not have enough people to start any instance in reasonable time.
And if they would choose to be grouped with other clients, they might end up mixed with every languege except English. As English is the most common second language, many non native speakers can use it, but that doesn't help, if the German French and Portugese are teamed with each other with everyone fluent enough to use the Enlish client missing.
Then we have the situation that the only queued missions that really require communication are PvP, which already have the biggest population population problem (maybe on par with some ground STFs)
So... bad idea.
But i would like, if messages from the clients (announcements, emoticons, "help") would be displayed in the client version of the receiver, not the sender. Same with item names from links in chat.
"Taktischer Kubus"
Quite often guesswork works quite well, as many specific words have been taken from other languages anyway. That is even more true for scientific vocabulary and a lot of the technobabble in Star Trek. Without checking the German client :
nanite sphere => Nanitensphaere (the ae should be an a with dots, but the forum software butchers it)
nanite generator => Nanitengenerator
to attack => 1) angreifen 2) attackieren (first is more common, but everyone also knows the second)
Ship classes also retain their names, same with player names and ship names.
Even if your teammates don't speak your language, they might be able to guess, what you are typing (voice chat is harder), try it. Calling out targets should be possible over language barriers.
Slightly grammatically off, but easily to understand. Would work without any problems.It does indead mean "which way is the beach" but implying that way and beach are the same kind of thing, instead of a way leading to a beach. But as the meaning is pretty obvious, no one would care.
Also, all nouns are capitalized in German, so it would be "Weg".
Oh, you want to start debating relationship between law and racism? Fine.
You have not demonstrated an international legal definition of racism. Firstly, there is no such thing as international law, the closest thing is treaty law, which is defined separately by which ever nations are entering into the treaty; you referred to the United Nations, the United Nations is not a legal body, it is a diplomatic organization with no powers to define or enforce law, although they do regulate their own judicial branch which is the International Court of Justice. The UN has not made any definition of 'racism', however they did define racial discrimination, but this definition has no authority beyond it's academic merit. The ICJ has also not made any ruling regarding the definition of racism or racial discrimination.
Secondly, the only truly binding 'international law' is the law of the European Union, which is some circumstances has jurisdiction over it's member states, the EU has not defined racism or racial discrimination and has always relied upon the advice given by the European Convention on Human Rights. Article 14 of the ECHR does make provision for discrimination as being based on "sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status". So in the eyes of the ECHR, my discrimination based on language would be considered 'discriminatory', however I freely admit such discrimination. I also discriminate on many other grounds both in game and personally. In game I agree with not auto-teaming level 5 players with level 50 players in team PvP events, and personally I believe that women and men should use their own respective lavatories in public places. These forms of discrimination are allowed in England and Wales due to the Human Rights Act 1998 (which only applies to public bodies, individual citizens are free to act how they please within the common law), which makes provision for articles of the ECHR to be adapted for societal functionality. It is such functionality I advocate. (Other EU member states have passed similar legislation when bringing the ECHR into their respective laws).
My complaint meets no European definition of 'racism', at worst it is discrimination, I freely admit that, in fact here's a clarification just for you.
"When playing online video games, I choose to discriminate against people with whom I cannot communicate due to language barrier issues on the side of either party. I do this as I do not feel that it in the present structure of the game it is conducive to team gameplay to play with other language speakers without choice on my part, due to the limitations on the part of the game engine that prevent me from knowing before hand that such a situation is to occur in order to allow me to make adequate preparation for, or retract my intention to partake in the activity.
Were the situation to be such that I were able to either know such an eventuality was to occur, or know it was not to occur I believe that any problems caused by language barriers on the part of either party would be mitigated at the cost of having to manually engage, by conscious decision, in in-game activities with other language speakers with deliberate action on my part.
My opinion on this matter does not extend to outside of online video games, as I feel that when presented with a language barrier between myself and another person in an activity in which we are both physically present, we would both be able to employ alternate means of communication that would sufficiently mitigate any problems that would arise due to an inability to communicate through speech."
tl'dr: Not racist. Don't dislike Germans, but don't speak German, assume other English speakers exist that don't speak Germans, and think that settings for things should default to whichever setting presents the least possible problems, and other setttings should be available by choice.
1. I didn't think about that, and it is a massive downside. I don't think it would be fair to diminish the gameplay of non-English speakers in exchange for ease of communication. (Better to lose due to communication issues, then to not play at all.)
2. Someone else suggested that earlier. Are you implying it can actually be done in game? In which case that's solved a great deal of problems. Or are you implying you'd like it to be so? In which case I've already said it's much better than my idea.
I think he meant something like "generator left 10%" should be easy to understand by everyone.
Another possibility that was once discussed long ago in another thread was a short message sytem similar to "World of Tanks" where pushing the F buttons allows people to throw out preset messages to everyone.
Preset of course means they're preset like the emotes are, not that the player can preset new ones.
For example "follow me" lets an icon appear over that player for teammates to see and of course that short message is translated to other languages depending on their localization setting.
When a player selects an enemy target he can also use another shortcut to let the other know he's attacking that target...if he wants to tell them of course.
Also, it's possible to select an ally and then hit the "follow me!" shortcut which means only that partciular player gets the message "edwardianed, follow me!"...or whatever "follow me" in that particular language.
It's not perfect but it's short and to the point.:)
You are aware due to the nature of the game provided of the possibility of being teamed with members from other countries who may or may not have an understanding of the same language as you. You are also consciously aware that by partaking in the public queues you are consenting to play with any such individual who is also a member of the same queue; due to the random nature of the queue in question whether they speak your language or not. You accept by partaking in the public queue system that you may be placed in an instance with one or more players with whom you may be unable to communicate with, for whatever reason or who may be unable to play the game effectively.
You accept under the Terms of Service that your use and continued use of the service is "at your own risk" in terms of your interaction with others in this respect.
You are consciously aware that you have the option to create a private queue of an instance of any map for yourself and up to 19 others of your choosing to play as you see fit. You are therefore able by conscious decision, able to discriminate against other players with whom you believe you would be unable to communicate with, allow you to make adequate preparation for such issues or retract your consent to partake in the activity at any time.
You freely admit that your conduct with regard to this and other statements is contrary to anti discrimination laws present in both the USA where the game is based and the UK where you are based and that such conduct is a violation of the Terms of Service which you agreed to be bound to by playing and continuing to use the service.
You freely admit that your idea to create a system would effectively marginalise and restrict gameplay of another group which is also against the law and the terms of service as defined based upon your own needs which you deem superior.
Whilst you and others may debate the issue of the word racism and it's application in this context, which whilst academically correct is rejected. As such a more open definition of bigotry can be applied in this sense and is again freely admitted to and as such will be applied in lieu of racist henceforth.
Translation options are available in game already for large numbers of things including but not limited to, loot drops, skills and bridge officers. Some emotes and other client side automatic typing is usually done in the clients language, this could be made into set translated pieces however the use of such would not apply in all circumstances and could be extremely situational to the point of no use.
Common sense would dictate that a certain amount of give and take with regard to language (in any form) should take place between all involved so as to facilitate better communication however this will not always be possible in every scenario.
Certain items such as help commands when the character is defeated or target calling on specific targets whilst the character is firing, should be immediately apparent but could however be translated locally so that the other members of the team could understand directly. This is unlikely to be of use in PvP however due to the nature of player names.
I agree, some players I know who are "foreign" are also some of the best players I know.
We don't need a system introduced like the one described. It damages everyone.