People, this is not about breaking even on dilithium, but about wicked new Neutronium consoles, and abso-****ing-lutely kick-TRIBBLE new Warp Cores! Mining dilithium is just a byproduct, really.
Good to know that bribery is still a functional tool to allow developers to lie their asses off.
Systems Designer Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski shares details about the upcoming Fleet System expansion in this entry of the Legacy of Romulus News Dev Blog series.
In order to reduce your fleet base's resource requirements, you have to spend it on developing a new system.
So, where is the discount?
If you are going to save 20% (hypothetical number) on fleet base resource requirements, by spending 20% (hypothetical number) on the dilithium mine, you are technically not saving anything.
Are you guys playing musical chairs-dilithium again?
The Dilithium Mine can be compared to the Embassy for effort and resources required to progress through it.
It sounds like another resource sink.
It sounds like more time gates.
How long will it take to complete the fleet bases now? If you have to wait several days to get a discount, due to a dilithium mine project's cool down period, you will be adding more days and hours to your overall progress.
Dilithium mines do not help anything.
As a result of the new dilithium mine, fleets will have to wait out more timers and spend more on resources.
People, this is not about breaking even on dilithium, but about wicked new Neutronium consoles, and abso-****ing-lutely kick-TRIBBLE new Warp Cores! Mining dilithium is just a byproduct, really.
Wow, that sounds like great news! ....for large fleets that can finish it in a timely manner.
Good to know that hyperbole is still easily found on gaming forums. :rolleyes:
Kindly lay out for me how increasing the length and costs of the fleet holding grind is the "significant impact on a small Fleet's ability to complete other Fleet Projects." that Stahl has been repeatedly been going on about.
I'll wait. Seriously, I want to hear you rationalize how making something more onerous is actually making it better.
Large fleets can finish everything faster. So, your point?
DStahl said the holding was specifically made to help out small fleets. You said "its not about breaking even on dilithium". My point is that your comment is ridiculous.
Anyone that thinks that this is what was promised for small fleets is highly mistaken or the devs are deluded. There is probably something being worked on that has nothing to do with dilithium mines, but will help out small fleets far more than the dilithium mine ever will. However, the plans aren't finalized for that so the devs can't mention what it is. IMO, the biggest thing that will help with small and stalled fleets coming with the Dilithium Mine patch is that Medical and Security Doffs are no longer necessary. Requiring 90 Science and 90 Medical Doffs for a 1000 XP project is not something that a small fleet can do constantly.
So any fleet LED by a Romulan could have a larger discount
and a second discount based on the % of romulans in the fleet
(My Fleet being the Romulan commonwealth Haha)
But on a serious note perhaps a Suit locker at the mine?
where players EV suits can be stored
With additional suit lockers (accessing the same slot) on nukara and the other locations where a suit needs to be worn
What are the costs to the projects, and how much of a discount do they give?
If the cost of the dilithium mine projects is the fleet discount price, the system does not help with a small fleet's ability to progress. You are just moving things around.
The Fleet input discounts (Items, Fleet Marks and Dilithium) are automatically granted when you increase the appropriate tier.
-Increasing the Dilithium Mine Tier rank improves your Dilithium input discount
-Increasing the Trade Tier rank improves your Item input discount
-Increasing the Development Tier rank improves your Fleet Mark input discount.
As a side note, the item discount applies not only to commodities and equipment (like Fighters or Torpedo Launchers) it also applies to Duty Officer input requirements.
DStahl said the holding was specifically made to help out small fleets. You said "its not about breaking even on dilithium". My point is that your comment is ridiculous.
He also said they are not modifiying there target of 25 active players as the amount needed to reasonalble complete the starbase system.
So by default they consider "small" to be in the 25 contributing player range.
He indicated they have no plans to make it easier for fleets with only a couple people contributing.
Almost 1 year of starbases only now are T5's being completely finished with the Embassy - that's with 300+ member fleets.
So by that same token 25 player fleets should take a long time.
The Fleet input discounts (Items, Fleet Marks and Dilithium) are automatically granted when you increase the appropriate tier.
-Increasing the Dilithium Mine Tier rank improves your Dilithium input discount
-Increasing the Trade Tier rank improves your Item input discount
-Increasing the Development Tier rank improves your Fleet Mark input discount.
As a side note, the item discount applies not only to commodities and equipment (like Fighters or Torpedo Launchers) it also applies to Duty Officer input requirements.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
First, thank you for answering.
Second, what are the actual project costs versus discount numbers?
Other words, what are we spending on projects, and how much of a discount will they give us?
I think you guys are right with smaller fleets I think the issue is not how big the fleet is. The issue is how many are contributing.
In my fleet less than 10 are contributing because everyone is working on romulan characters.
Also, the addition of the nukara rep system is taking resources away from the base because players want the gear for themselves.
Theres also another reason why contribution has slowed to a crawl... more and more people are giving up and just paying the large fleets for access to their amenities. Luckily, this holding won't be as bad as going from a T3 to T5 starbase ....but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people willing to pay larger fleets for quicker access to these new consoles.
Theres also another reason why contribution has slowed to a crawl... more and more people are giving up and just paying the large fleets for access to their amenities. Luckily, this holding won't be as bad as going from a T3 to T5 starbase ....but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people willing to pay larger fleets for quicker access to these new consoles.
Oh there will be people, this is obvious because it is not uncommon to see chats in any social zone that read "Access to a T5 <insert facility> for X Million EC".
Any people happily get in line to pay those fees. And they will be happy to get in line for the new consoles/warp cores when the mega fleets finish the mine.
The Fleet input discounts (Items, Fleet Marks and Dilithium) are automatically granted when you increase the appropriate tier.
-Increasing the Dilithium Mine Tier rank improves your Dilithium input discount
-Increasing the Trade Tier rank improves your Item input discount
-Increasing the Development Tier rank improves your Fleet Mark input discount.
As a side note, the item discount applies not only to commodities and equipment (like Fighters or Torpedo Launchers) it also applies to Duty Officer input requirements.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
As you can tell from everyone's questions, you have a lot of information that needs to be presented. Unless we understand 'how much will we be spending on dilithium mine projects' vrs. 'how much of a discount will we be getting', the dilithium mine is only going to appear as though we are spending more on time, energy, and resources.
See post #51 for my questions.
Thanks for taking the time to reassure our anxieties.
Could you give us specifics on one or two dilithium mine projects, and how those numbers translate into a discount for a specific starbase project? Specific numbers?
Example: Dilithium Mine Project One: Costs X - Gives Discount X for fleet base project X.
Are we spending 20,000 dilithium on a dilithium mine project, so we can save 20,000 dilithium on a fleet base project? That would make no sense.
As you can tell from everyone's questions, you have a lot of information that needs to be presented. Unless we understand 'how much will be spending on dilithium mine projects' vrs. 'how much of a discount we will getting', the dilithium mines are only going to appear as though we are spending more on time, energy, and resources.
See post #51 for my questions.
Thanks for taking the time to reassure our anxieties.
Could you give us specifics on one or two dilithium mine projects, and how those numbers translate into a discount for a specific starbase project? Specific numbers?
Example: Dilithium Mine Project One: Costs X - Gives Discount X for fleet base project X.
It sounds very similar to a VISA scam my mom was a part of. They wanted you to use their "Rewards" card to pay. And not with debit but a charge. (because they can charge the merchant 5 cents for a charge)
So if you spent $2000 you would get a $10 gift certificate.
On top of that you had to pay a $25 yearly fee.
I kept trying to explain to her that she could just skip the fee and any possible interest charge and then simply use the $25 to buy what ever junk the gift certificate would have gotten her.
All we are doing grinding stuff out to open another store that we have to grind to be able to buy stuff.
IMO Cryptics purpose is to take as much Dilithium away as they can so people will be more inclined to spend real cash on Zen. or require so much dilithium that people spend money on Zen to convert. Its all about making people buy Zen.
Theres also another reason why contribution has slowed to a crawl... more and more people are giving up and just paying the large fleets for access to their amenities. Luckily, this holding won't be as bad as going from a T3 to T5 starbase ....but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people willing to pay larger fleets for quicker access to these new consoles.
well, Ive done the math and it looks like that if you manage to get a few projects going EVERY DAY its a minimum of 9 months away for us. But the reality is that that will never happen. And its more like sometime NEXT summer. But the costs of the projects will escalate and it will take longer and longer and longer.
I dont need instant gratification but then I dont expect to be grinding on something for like two years.
It should not take more the 3-4 months for large fleet to complete and no longer than 6 for a small fleet.
All the current system does is discourage people and create more burn out and IMO it destroys the fun of being in fleets since it becomes all about who has the most stores rather than the actual group itself.
As you can tell from everyone's questions, you have a lot of information that needs to be presented. Unless we understand 'how much will we be spending on dilithium mine projects' vrs. 'how much of a discount will we be getting', the dilithium mine is only going to appear as though we are spending more on time, energy, and resources.
See post #51 for my questions.
Thanks for taking the time to reassure our anxieties.
Could you give us specifics on one or two dilithium mine projects, and how those numbers translate into a discount for a specific starbase project? Specific numbers?
Example: Dilithium Mine Project One: Costs X - Gives Discount X for fleet base project X.
Are we spending 20,000 dilithium on a dilithium mine project, so we can save 20,000 dilithium on a fleet base project? That would make no sense.
What are some of the specifics?
Based on numbers available on Tribble, it breaks down roughly as follows:
The cost to complete the Mine in it's entirety is roughly 4.5 million dilithium. The coast of completing an entire T5 starbase plus an embassy is 29 million dilithium.
With a 15% discount, you will save 4.36 million dilithium, for a net loss of roughly 150k dilithium. That's the max "discount". The more of the starbase and embassy you have completed prior to finishing the mine, the more dilithium you will lose.
In other words, you waste a great deal of time only to get to pay extra for your "cheaper" starbase.
Lying? Who's lying? Dan said it should be a significant help to the targeted fleet size for their starbase system which was 25 active players.
Once again, please explain how adding a mechanic that actually increases the cost and time to complete something is somehow helping to make that completion faster and cheaper.
I like this idea. i don't see why nobody decided to do this before now!
It would've been nice if these dilithium discounts were an incentive for leveling up the Fleet Starbases, right from the start. The only conclusion I can come to, why they waited until now, is that more and more of the veteran fleets are reaching the end of projects to do. So naturally, they add a new holding for these fleets. Nevermind the fact, that these discounts don't do a whole lot for the veterans who have struggled for this long already with absurd amounts of Dilithium, Marks and commodities.
But i'm sure newer fleets, or smaller fleets will be happy (Tip: Upgrade your Dilithium mine holding first, then proceed to upgrade starbases and embassies.)
It sounds very similar to a VISA scam my mom was a part of. They wanted you to use their "Rewards" card to pay. And not with debit but a charge. (because they can charge the merchant 5 cents for a charge)
So if you spent $2000 you would get a $10 gift certificate.
On top of that you had to pay a $25 yearly fee.
I kept trying to explain to her that she could just skip the fee and any possible interest charge and then simply use the $25 to buy what ever junk the gift certificate would have gotten her.
All we are doing grinding stuff out to open another store that we have to grind to be able to buy stuff.
IMO Cryptics purpose is to take as much Dilithium away as they can so people will be more inclined to spend real cash on Zen. or require so much dilithium that people spend money on Zen to convert. Its all about making people buy Zen.
The system IS designed to make them money - it's a business - that's their whole point for opperating. Dan Stahl gave a presentation at the PWE shareholders meeting that they would make approx $2800 per starbase - can't be more clearly laid out than that.
Based on numbers available on Tribble, it breaks down roughly as follows:
The cost to complete the Mine in it's entirety is roughly 4.5 million dilithium. The cost of completing an entire T5 starbase plus an embassy is 29 million dilithium.
With a 15% discount, you will save 4.36 million dilithium, for a net loss of roughly 150k dilithium. That's the max "discount". The more of the starbase and embassy you have completed prior to finishing the mine, the more dilithium you will lose.
In other words, you waste a great deal of time only to get to pay extra for your "cheaper" starbase.
grrr.... So, what Cryptic ultimately did was move the discounted cost from the fleet base to the dilithium mine. It is what I theorized.
According to the numbers you have seen, the overall discount you obtain is a cost increase.
Comments
Good to know that bribery is still a functional tool to allow developers to lie their asses off.
In order to reduce your fleet base's resource requirements, you have to spend it on developing a new system.
So, where is the discount?
If you are going to save 20% (hypothetical number) on fleet base resource requirements, by spending 20% (hypothetical number) on the dilithium mine, you are technically not saving anything.
Are you guys playing musical chairs-dilithium again?
It sounds like another resource sink.
It sounds like more time gates.
How long will it take to complete the fleet bases now? If you have to wait several days to get a discount, due to a dilithium mine project's cool down period, you will be adding more days and hours to your overall progress.
Dilithium mines do not help anything.
As a result of the new dilithium mine, fleets will have to wait out more timers and spend more on resources.
Is this a joke?
Wow, that sounds like great news! ....for large fleets that can finish it in a timely manner.
Good to know that hyperbole is still easily found on gaming forums. :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Bf4YINfjQaQ#t=109s
Kindly lay out for me how increasing the length and costs of the fleet holding grind is the "significant impact on a small Fleet's ability to complete other Fleet Projects." that Stahl has been repeatedly been going on about.
I'll wait. Seriously, I want to hear you rationalize how making something more onerous is actually making it better.
Lying? Who's lying? Dan said it should be a significant help to the targeted fleet size for their starbase system which was 25 active players.
25 actives players should have no trouble building a T5 starbase and all it's stuff.
I think the big complaints are coming from fleets with less than 10 active players - many with less than 5 contibuting.
Sorry i just don't feel a "fleet" with less than 5 regular contributors should have a tier 5 base.
Large fleets can finish everything faster. So, your point?
Also, huzzah for dilithium store discounts, too! It should make fitting out additional characters with their stuff a little easier...
DStahl said the holding was specifically made to help out small fleets. You said "its not about breaking even on dilithium". My point is that your comment is ridiculous.
So any fleet LED by a Romulan could have a larger discount
and a second discount based on the % of romulans in the fleet
(My Fleet being the Romulan commonwealth Haha)
But on a serious note perhaps a Suit locker at the mine?
where players EV suits can be stored
With additional suit lockers (accessing the same slot) on nukara and the other locations where a suit needs to be worn
If the cost of the dilithium mine projects is the fleet discount price, the system does not help with a small fleet's ability to progress.
Example: (Hypothetical Numbers)
Dilithium Mine Project #1 = Costs 20,000 dilithium. (Gives a 20,000 dilithium discount).
Fleet base Project #1 = Cost 100,000 dilithium / Reduced price 80,000 dilithium.
We need more details.
The Fleet input discounts (Items, Fleet Marks and Dilithium) are automatically granted when you increase the appropriate tier.
-Increasing the Dilithium Mine Tier rank improves your Dilithium input discount
-Increasing the Trade Tier rank improves your Item input discount
-Increasing the Development Tier rank improves your Fleet Mark input discount.
As a side note, the item discount applies not only to commodities and equipment (like Fighters or Torpedo Launchers) it also applies to Duty Officer input requirements.
Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
He also said they are not modifiying there target of 25 active players as the amount needed to reasonalble complete the starbase system.
So by default they consider "small" to be in the 25 contributing player range.
He indicated they have no plans to make it easier for fleets with only a couple people contributing.
Almost 1 year of starbases only now are T5's being completely finished with the Embassy - that's with 300+ member fleets.
So by that same token 25 player fleets should take a long time.
Second, what are the actual project costs versus discount numbers?
Other words, what are we spending on projects, and how much of a discount will they give us?
Could you give us at least one or two examples?
Theres also another reason why contribution has slowed to a crawl... more and more people are giving up and just paying the large fleets for access to their amenities. Luckily, this holding won't be as bad as going from a T3 to T5 starbase ....but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people willing to pay larger fleets for quicker access to these new consoles.
Oh there will be people, this is obvious because it is not uncommon to see chats in any social zone that read "Access to a T5 <insert facility> for X Million EC".
Any people happily get in line to pay those fees. And they will be happy to get in line for the new consoles/warp cores when the mega fleets finish the mine.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
See post #51 for my questions.
Thanks for taking the time to reassure our anxieties.
Could you give us specifics on one or two dilithium mine projects, and how those numbers translate into a discount for a specific starbase project? Specific numbers?
Example: Dilithium Mine Project One: Costs X - Gives Discount X for fleet base project X.
Are we spending 20,000 dilithium on a dilithium mine project, so we can save 20,000 dilithium on a fleet base project? That would make no sense.
What are some of the specifics?
It sounds very similar to a VISA scam my mom was a part of. They wanted you to use their "Rewards" card to pay. And not with debit but a charge. (because they can charge the merchant 5 cents for a charge)
So if you spent $2000 you would get a $10 gift certificate.
On top of that you had to pay a $25 yearly fee.
I kept trying to explain to her that she could just skip the fee and any possible interest charge and then simply use the $25 to buy what ever junk the gift certificate would have gotten her.
All we are doing grinding stuff out to open another store that we have to grind to be able to buy stuff.
IMO Cryptics purpose is to take as much Dilithium away as they can so people will be more inclined to spend real cash on Zen. or require so much dilithium that people spend money on Zen to convert. Its all about making people buy Zen.
well, Ive done the math and it looks like that if you manage to get a few projects going EVERY DAY its a minimum of 9 months away for us. But the reality is that that will never happen. And its more like sometime NEXT summer. But the costs of the projects will escalate and it will take longer and longer and longer.
I dont need instant gratification but then I dont expect to be grinding on something for like two years.
It should not take more the 3-4 months for large fleet to complete and no longer than 6 for a small fleet.
All the current system does is discourage people and create more burn out and IMO it destroys the fun of being in fleets since it becomes all about who has the most stores rather than the actual group itself.
Vice Admiral Nova Snow S'Car, U.S.S. Caitian Fury-F (Multi-Vector Advanced Escort)
Lieutenant R'Maani Hunter, I.K.S. Teng'vek (B'rel Bird of Prey)
Based on numbers available on Tribble, it breaks down roughly as follows:
The cost to complete the Mine in it's entirety is roughly 4.5 million dilithium. The coast of completing an entire T5 starbase plus an embassy is 29 million dilithium.
With a 15% discount, you will save 4.36 million dilithium, for a net loss of roughly 150k dilithium. That's the max "discount". The more of the starbase and embassy you have completed prior to finishing the mine, the more dilithium you will lose.
In other words, you waste a great deal of time only to get to pay extra for your "cheaper" starbase.
Once again, please explain how adding a mechanic that actually increases the cost and time to complete something is somehow helping to make that completion faster and cheaper.
It would've been nice if these dilithium discounts were an incentive for leveling up the Fleet Starbases, right from the start. The only conclusion I can come to, why they waited until now, is that more and more of the veteran fleets are reaching the end of projects to do. So naturally, they add a new holding for these fleets. Nevermind the fact, that these discounts don't do a whole lot for the veterans who have struggled for this long already with absurd amounts of Dilithium, Marks and commodities.
But i'm sure newer fleets, or smaller fleets will be happy (Tip: Upgrade your Dilithium mine holding first, then proceed to upgrade starbases and embassies.)
The system IS designed to make them money - it's a business - that's their whole point for opperating. Dan Stahl gave a presentation at the PWE shareholders meeting that they would make approx $2800 per starbase - can't be more clearly laid out than that.
According to the numbers you have seen, the overall discount you obtain is a cost increase.
Thank you for revealing those numbers.
I hope Cryptic gives us their answer.