having three non-optional fleet projects costing over 500k dil with another 3-4 non-optional projects costing over 150k dil each is not a bottleneck it's a problem in the system. and that's just the Tier 1/Tier 2 upgrades.
Some of it definitely comes down to how much people are willing to work for certain parts, others seriously need to be addressed and recalculated.
Sorry, "non-optional"?
Its all optional... all of it... from the moment you login to the moment you logout... its all optional.
You have to weigh the costs personally, do you want to invest in the holding? Do you think what will come of it will be worth the time invested? No? Then don't invest in it.
Edit: Honestly, this will get Cryptics attention more than 10,000 posts on the forums. If they see in the metrics that a large majority of people are ignoring the mine, they'll adjust things to make it more attractive.
Personally, I'll invest. I was happy with the small savings, happier with the newest bump. No, I would never make back what i have personally invested in the base/embassy.
If someone at Cryptic said that publicly, I would consider that type of thinking as a cop-out.
Why do you not want smaller fleets to exist?
It's not about me not wanting smaller fleets to exist. It's simply about me wanting to spare people the frustration of realizing starting a small fleet now, especially with so many already at very high Tiers, was really a bad idea, a few months down the road. I see them come into ESD Zone every day, asking ppl to quickly help them make a fleet. And I honestly don't think those ppl truly realize the enormous cost of getting a fleet to Tier 5. Can it be done with 5 ppl? I'm sure it could. But ppl that good or dedicated are likely part of a bigger fleet already. Chances simply are, those ppl start a fleet anyway, then groggily drop it at near Tier 2 or so, realizing it can't realistically be done, after all. And having nothing to show for.
The thing is simply set up, by Cryptic, to work comfortably at large numbers of members. So, to ppl wanting to start a new fleet, yes, i usually tell em to just join an existing one, and be able to get something out of it themselves too (high Tier equipment and gear); and feel part, not only of a larger community, but one that's actually going places too. And not feel like having dumped their good money into just another dilithium sink.
Does the mining outpost's mining event for fleet members run with the normal one?
What I'm asking is this:
The regular mining event that we can get form the journal from, the Ferengi, I forget her name, if we take that, can we still do the one at the outpost and vice a versa?
Or, if we take one of them, does the other become deactivated?
Or, are we, who are in fleets, not get the Ferengi one anymore?
Its all optional... all of it... from the moment you login to the moment you logout... its all optional.
You have to weigh the costs personally, do you want to invest in the holding? Do you think what will come of it will be worth the time invested? No? Then don't invest in it.
Edit: Honestly, this will get Cryptics attention more than 10,000 posts on the forums. If they see in the metrics that a large majority of people are ignoring the mine, they'll adjust things to make it more attractive.
Personally, I'll invest. I was happy with the small savings, happier with the newest bump. No, I would never make back what i have personally invested in the base/embassy.
Sorry what I meant by non-optional was projects that are apart of the progression and not provisions or special limited time projects.
By you're logic they should have already slashed resource costs by 50% because of the majority of people stalled or ignoring the fleet progression. The problem is for those of us that are stalled or ignore it there are some throwing hundreds of real dollars or more into the system and thus we are expendable compared to that.
The system IS designed to make them money - it's a business - that's their whole point for opperating. Dan Stahl gave a presentation at the PWE shareholders meeting that they would make approx $2800 per starbase - can't be more clearly laid out than that.
This is the first I've heard of this - how do we get those meeting notes?
So, the maxed dilithium mine costs MORE dilithium to finish than it the total amount of dilithium the highest-tier dilithium discount would save in building a fleet starbase and embassy from scratch?
I like the idea, maybe this will help out the smaller fleets some where projects take longer and harder to do at times. I will check it out when this comes out. Nothing wrong with getting more Dil.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
This idea is the complete opposite of helping small fleets. How did you manage to come up with another idea that hurts them further, while at the same time promising changes to help them?
Sorry what I meant by non-optional was projects that are apart of the progression and not provisions or special limited time projects.
By you're logic they should have already slashed resource costs by 50% because of the majority of people stalled or ignoring the fleet progression. The problem is for those of us that are stalled or ignore it there are some throwing hundreds of real dollars or more into the system and thus we are expendable compared to that.
Please share you statistics on "the majority of people stalled or ignoring", because from what I can see (granted its perception, because I don't have access to hard numbers) is that the fleet system is still very much alive, and people are very much grinding away.
But if you would like to present the hard numbers to support your comment... i'd be happy to look at them... might even change my opinion.
See above as costs of Advanced are not that high for a 15% discount have much of a impact.
I wouldn't go that far. Outfitting a ship with fleet weapons is 80k dil, I'll take a 12k discount thanks.
It's even more substantial for rep weapons which are 22k each. You're looking at a 26k dilithium saving when outfitting a ship with rep weapons. That's over 3 days of refinement.
Of course I would like a higher discount too, but implying it has no impact isn't particularly truthful.
A Fleet costs nothing in real money, they all use circular logic about how much "real money value" a Fleet have, it have NONE.
No, the more accurate statement is that a fleet CAN cost nothing. However, there are some (i don't have statistics, so I'll just say i know of 1 (me)) that has spent real world money to buy Zen, that I trade for Dilithium, that I donated to a project to top it off, to advance the base. I know I am not alone.
I know others who trade purchased dilithium for fleet marks, or Zen to Keys, Keys to EC, EC for Fleet Marks (hang out in zone chat for a while).
It's not about me not wanting smaller fleets to exist. It's simply about me wanting to spare people the frustration of realizing starting a small fleet now, especially with so many already at very high Tiers, was really a bad idea, a few months down the road. I see them come into ESD Zone every day, asking ppl to quickly help them make a fleet. And I honestly don't think those ppl truly realize the enormous cost of getting a fleet to Tier 5. Can it be done with 5 ppl? I'm sure it could. But ppl that good or dedicated are likely part of a bigger fleet already. Chances simply are, those ppl start a fleet anyway, then groggily drop it at near Tier 2 or so, realizing it can't realistically be done, after all. And having nothing to show for.
The thing is simply set up, by Cryptic, to work comfortably at large numbers of members. So, to ppl wanting to start a new fleet, yes, i usually tell em to just join an existing one, and be able to get something out of it themselves too (high Tier equipment and gear); and feel part, not only of a larger community, but one that's actually going places too. And not feel like having dumped their good money into just another dilithium sink.
It happens on Qo"Nos too and KDF players discourage it even posting links, but these types just don't care. I think Cryptic needs to put a holt to new fleet creation for a while or have an requirement of needing like 20 people before they can create one.
This mine is on no use to small fleets, as the savings isn't worth the expense, an expense better spent on developing the main base. If this is the saving small fleets were promised it's another Cryptic FAIL, again they don't look at all the angles and all this does is make lerger fleets even more attractive to new players and members not making smaller fleets more attractive.
I truely think they need to make a fleet merge option where two smaller fleets, 100 members or less can merge into one with all the fleet assets and XP combined along with members and bank. This would help smaller fleets as I know many smaller fleets that would no doubt use this option pulling resources together.
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The 'Provision Fleet Ships' starbase project costs Dilithium - so yes, at some point Fleet ships DO cost the Fleet Dilithium -- and that project input cost will be discounted assuming you have the Fleet Dilithium bult up to a certain tier and have run the appropriate projects on it beforehand.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
ok... it doesnt take an economics degree to see the FLAW in your logic.
Lets say I save 2K dilith on a weapon. Not really a big deal in the first place but I am only going to buy that weapon ONCE. So if it costs 18K instead of 20K is not really an issue. One more day of grinding.
To get the said "discount" I would probably have to spend 10X that amount. So I might spend 500K dilithum to save maybe 20K on stuff I would buy.
Its like using a "Rent to Own" store. You end up paying $2000 for that $500 TV
Actually it looks worse than a "Rent To Own"...at least with those places i can return the tv at anytime usually and stop paying them my money....but with this "Dil Mine" kind of hard to take it back once you start the projects lol
"If everyone used Macs, we'd be working on how to get to Alpha Centauri rather than how to get to Mars."
LoL I'm still working on getting my starbase from tier 2 to tier 3. Only just got the tier three shipyard project running, so another 7 days until I can do any more there. Our Embassy is still only at tier 1...
I don't really see us getting the Dilithium mine, Embassay and Starbase progression all at the same time inside of the next three years.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
When I was referring to competition, I was focusing on the recruiting options. I was not being clear. I apologize.
How I would open the game up for more fleets, fleet bases, resources, and recruitment options: Just a suggestion to Cryptic.
First, I would reduce the fleet membership cap from 500 to 250.
Second, as a direct result of reducing the fleet membership cap, I would also reduce the fleet base resource requirements to accommodate 20 - 250 members.
Third, I would restrict the number of fleets a player can own to two. One Fed/One KDF.
Fourth, I would move the dilithium mine projects into the fleet base, and just give everyone an overall discount.
New and old players are getting tired of grinding and slow game progression. While my suggestions may seem controversial to big fleet owners, the small fleet owners (also those thinking about owning a fleet) will benefit. Remember, I am just throwing these suggestions out there; thus, do not take them as if they are demands. I am sure other people can come up with better solutions.
CRYPTIC! Ignore everything above this line! Bad ideas!
From what i've noticed, the Embassy Sci Consoles(specificaly (-th)) aren't working as stated in the description. I'm not noticing the Plasma bonus, and the (-th) will often do nothing or in some cases the exact opposite of what they say.
How do i know the Dilithium mine's engineering consoles won't do the exact same?
Personally I am satisfied with the new holding, people seem to forget that you're getting more than just a discount. You're getting fleet cores, fleet eng. consoles, another holding, more doffs, and a bunch of other stuff.
My question is however, with the introduction of mining doff missions, and probably the daily refining mission (if it is similar at all to the veteran refining mission) and the confirmed "huge doffing update" that will come later in the year (see latest Dan Stahl interviews) will anything be done to up the amount of missions that you can run?
We can have a roster of 400 doffs and lets just say that 20 can be on active duty (the actual number is 16 but lets round) you can have 20 doff missions running at one time (barring sickbay and sickbay like missions) and the max amount of doffs needed per doff mission is 5 (barring missions that don't use actual officers but instead use prisoners/colonists). So lets say for the sake of argument that you have all 20 doffs on active duty. and have 20 missions running with 5 doffs a piece. Total doff usage is 120 doffs at one time. That's assuming you have 20 on active duty which as already stated is impossible, and 20x5 missions which is possible but for the majority of players improbable. The max roster upgrade is to 400 total.
Assignment slots need to be upgraded to match the roster upgrades.
Wow what an awful idea. One , the fleet stuff from season 6 was not popular by any stretch of the imagination. It was resource intensive and open the door for unscrupulous exploitation by a lot of fleets. They would get people in and drain there pockets,then kick them to the curb. Season 7 only put a dent in this behavior by removing 60% of the dilithium in the games. i really don't know where you got that 3000 dilithium a day production figure form , because it sure was not form anyone who played the game. You ripped it form the STF PvP , "The Big Dally " and other places in the game. this continues to this day with things like the refueling station mission that use to be a gate way to "Salvage Disrepute" mission. Now you want to put in a fleet only dilithium access in the game. bad idea , again.
This is why this is a bad idea. What makes you so sure that players who are starved for this resource that has been basically removed in the game and that now used for dam near any and everything you use to get in the game just by playing will use it for that? Money says that it will be dumped on the exchange in the form of cheep high level manufactured good form Memory Alpha and other junk as people attempt to get stuff that they want or have dumped real money away for and never got. Oh and by the way , not everyone in the game has flocked to fleets in any form. Some people have either had it with all the nonsense that accompany anything like clans or fleets. a lot of people want to use the little handfuls of red stuff that may mange to get for their own uses and not TRIBBLE it away on something that they might not even have a chance to use due to the fact that they may be kicked out as soon as the leader and his buddies get what they want. or have a sugar fulled hissie-fit
Just a bad idea , all around . this may lead to a second crash in the game . Just 7 months on the heals of the season 7 crash.
Personally I am satisfied with the new holding, people seem to forget that you're getting more than just a discount. You're getting fleet cores, fleet eng. consoles, another holding, more doffs, and a bunch of other stuff.
My question is however, with the introduction of mining doff missions, and probably the daily refining mission (if it is similar at all to the veteran refining mission) and the confirmed "huge doffing update" that will come later in the year (see latest Dan Stahl interviews) will anything be done to up the amount of missions that you can run?
We can have a roster of 400 doffs and lets just say that 20 can be on active duty (the actual number is 14 but lets round) you can have 20 doff missions running at one time (barring sickbay and sickbay like missions) and the max amount of doffs needed per doff mission is 5 (barring missions that don't use actual officers but instead use prisoners/colonists). So lets say for the sake of argument that you have all 20 doffs on active duty. and have 20 missions running with 5 doffs a piece. Total doff usage is 120 doffs at one time. That's assuming you have 20 on active duty which as already stated is impossible, and 20x5 missions which is possible but for the majority of players improbable. The max roster upgrade is to 400 total.
Assignment slots need to be upgraded to match the roster upgrades.
The embassy upgrades allow you to buy with Fleet credits up to 3 MORE assignment slots for a total of 23.
Still hoping you guys at Cryptic can answer one of my and perhaps others big concerns:
If we have a project sloted - like say the T4 base upgrade for 1.8 million dilithium and were to stop contributing to that and instead fully build out the mine - would this project get the 15% discount applied to it???
The embassy upgrades allow you to buy with Fleet credits up to 3 MORE assignment slots for a total of 23.
I'm about 99% sure that is active duty slots not assignment slots. In the Fleet Embassy Store it clearly says +1 Active Duty Assignment Slot 50k FC, 75k FC, 100k FC.
Still hoping you guys at Cryptic can answer one of my and perhaps others big concerns:
If we have a project sloted - like say the T4 base upgrade for 1.8 million dilithium and were to stop contributing to that and instead fully build out the mine - would this project get the 15% discount applied to it???
Thx.
They have, the answer is no... only new projects slotted after the upgrade that grants the discount.
I'm about 99% sure that is active duty slots not assignment slots. In the Fleet Embassy Store it clearly says +1 Active Duty Assignment Slot 50k FC, 75k FC, 100k FC.
The embassy ones are for Duty Officer Assignment Slots... I thought the same thing. Instead of 20 Doff Assignments, you can have up to 23.
Edit: I.e. up to 23 Doff Assignment slots, not active duty officers (space/ground)
My mistake then since the labeling is clearly misleading. But still the math holds up, substantially more doffs than you can use at any one time if you have maxed out your roster.
For some reason I couldn't comment on the development blog. Is that intentional? I think people that are struggling with the fleet holdings may find another fleet holding too much. I haven't had a lot of free time the last few months, so I don't know what my own fleet is saying....
Anyway....So the Vulgate or whomever, in Cardasian space gave this mine to the Romulans? And the Romulans sold it to the Ferengi, who sold it to the federation? Sounds like the same irrational reasoning that makes my Romulan a Klingon ally who is saving federation ships from wormholes. Your writers should really put a little more thought into making these narratives less convoluted.
That being said, season 8 is a lot of fun. Thanks for the effort!
Comments
Sorry, "non-optional"?
Its all optional... all of it... from the moment you login to the moment you logout... its all optional.
You have to weigh the costs personally, do you want to invest in the holding? Do you think what will come of it will be worth the time invested? No? Then don't invest in it.
Edit: Honestly, this will get Cryptics attention more than 10,000 posts on the forums. If they see in the metrics that a large majority of people are ignoring the mine, they'll adjust things to make it more attractive.
Personally, I'll invest. I was happy with the small savings, happier with the newest bump. No, I would never make back what i have personally invested in the base/embassy.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Head of Technical Services
TaskForce Atlantis
www.taskforceatlantis.com
STO Forums Join Date: August 2009
It's not about me not wanting smaller fleets to exist. It's simply about me wanting to spare people the frustration of realizing starting a small fleet now, especially with so many already at very high Tiers, was really a bad idea, a few months down the road. I see them come into ESD Zone every day, asking ppl to quickly help them make a fleet. And I honestly don't think those ppl truly realize the enormous cost of getting a fleet to Tier 5. Can it be done with 5 ppl? I'm sure it could. But ppl that good or dedicated are likely part of a bigger fleet already. Chances simply are, those ppl start a fleet anyway, then groggily drop it at near Tier 2 or so, realizing it can't realistically be done, after all. And having nothing to show for.
The thing is simply set up, by Cryptic, to work comfortably at large numbers of members. So, to ppl wanting to start a new fleet, yes, i usually tell em to just join an existing one, and be able to get something out of it themselves too (high Tier equipment and gear); and feel part, not only of a larger community, but one that's actually going places too. And not feel like having dumped their good money into just another dilithium sink.
Does the mining outpost's mining event for fleet members run with the normal one?
What I'm asking is this:
The regular mining event that we can get form the journal from, the Ferengi, I forget her name, if we take that, can we still do the one at the outpost and vice a versa?
Or, if we take one of them, does the other become deactivated?
Or, are we, who are in fleets, not get the Ferengi one anymore?
Some clarification on this please.
Sorry what I meant by non-optional was projects that are apart of the progression and not provisions or special limited time projects.
By you're logic they should have already slashed resource costs by 50% because of the majority of people stalled or ignoring the fleet progression. The problem is for those of us that are stalled or ignore it there are some throwing hundreds of real dollars or more into the system and thus we are expendable compared to that.
This is the first I've heard of this - how do we get those meeting notes?
Pass.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Boggles the mind.
The doors, Mister Scott!
Please share you statistics on "the majority of people stalled or ignoring", because from what I can see (granted its perception, because I don't have access to hard numbers) is that the fleet system is still very much alive, and people are very much grinding away.
But if you would like to present the hard numbers to support your comment... i'd be happy to look at them... might even change my opinion.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I wouldn't go that far. Outfitting a ship with fleet weapons is 80k dil, I'll take a 12k discount thanks.
It's even more substantial for rep weapons which are 22k each. You're looking at a 26k dilithium saving when outfitting a ship with rep weapons. That's over 3 days of refinement.
Of course I would like a higher discount too, but implying it has no impact isn't particularly truthful.
Kirk's Protege.
No, the more accurate statement is that a fleet CAN cost nothing. However, there are some (i don't have statistics, so I'll just say i know of 1 (me)) that has spent real world money to buy Zen, that I trade for Dilithium, that I donated to a project to top it off, to advance the base. I know I am not alone.
I know others who trade purchased dilithium for fleet marks, or Zen to Keys, Keys to EC, EC for Fleet Marks (hang out in zone chat for a while).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
It happens on Qo"Nos too and KDF players discourage it even posting links, but these types just don't care. I think Cryptic needs to put a holt to new fleet creation for a while or have an requirement of needing like 20 people before they can create one.
This mine is on no use to small fleets, as the savings isn't worth the expense, an expense better spent on developing the main base. If this is the saving small fleets were promised it's another Cryptic FAIL, again they don't look at all the angles and all this does is make lerger fleets even more attractive to new players and members not making smaller fleets more attractive.
I truely think they need to make a fleet merge option where two smaller fleets, 100 members or less can merge into one with all the fleet assets and XP combined along with members and bank. This would help smaller fleets as I know many smaller fleets that would no doubt use this option pulling resources together.
The 'Provision Fleet Ships' starbase project costs Dilithium - so yes, at some point Fleet ships DO cost the Fleet Dilithium -- and that project input cost will be discounted assuming you have the Fleet Dilithium bult up to a certain tier and have run the appropriate projects on it beforehand.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Actually it looks worse than a "Rent To Own"...at least with those places i can return the tv at anytime usually and stop paying them my money....but with this "Dil Mine" kind of hard to take it back once you start the projects lol
I don't really see us getting the Dilithium mine, Embassay and Starbase progression all at the same time inside of the next three years.
CRYPTIC! Ignore everything above this line! Bad ideas!
HiHo, HiHo, to bump and grind w/ Snow White all nite long...
(Ahem, she's on the mining team just like everyone else, get your mind out of the ram scoop!)
How do i know the Dilithium mine's engineering consoles won't do the exact same?
My question is however, with the introduction of mining doff missions, and probably the daily refining mission (if it is similar at all to the veteran refining mission) and the confirmed "huge doffing update" that will come later in the year (see latest Dan Stahl interviews) will anything be done to up the amount of missions that you can run?
We can have a roster of 400 doffs and lets just say that 20 can be on active duty (the actual number is 16 but lets round) you can have 20 doff missions running at one time (barring sickbay and sickbay like missions) and the max amount of doffs needed per doff mission is 5 (barring missions that don't use actual officers but instead use prisoners/colonists). So lets say for the sake of argument that you have all 20 doffs on active duty. and have 20 missions running with 5 doffs a piece. Total doff usage is 120 doffs at one time. That's assuming you have 20 on active duty which as already stated is impossible, and 20x5 missions which is possible but for the majority of players improbable. The max roster upgrade is to 400 total.
Assignment slots need to be upgraded to match the roster upgrades.
This is why this is a bad idea. What makes you so sure that players who are starved for this resource that has been basically removed in the game and that now used for dam near any and everything you use to get in the game just by playing will use it for that? Money says that it will be dumped on the exchange in the form of cheep high level manufactured good form Memory Alpha and other junk as people attempt to get stuff that they want or have dumped real money away for and never got. Oh and by the way , not everyone in the game has flocked to fleets in any form. Some people have either had it with all the nonsense that accompany anything like clans or fleets. a lot of people want to use the little handfuls of red stuff that may mange to get for their own uses and not TRIBBLE it away on something that they might not even have a chance to use due to the fact that they may be kicked out as soon as the leader and his buddies get what they want. or have a sugar fulled hissie-fit
Just a bad idea , all around . this may lead to a second crash in the game . Just 7 months on the heals of the season 7 crash.
The embassy upgrades allow you to buy with Fleet credits up to 3 MORE assignment slots for a total of 23.
If we have a project sloted - like say the T4 base upgrade for 1.8 million dilithium and were to stop contributing to that and instead fully build out the mine - would this project get the 15% discount applied to it???
Thx.
I'm about 99% sure that is active duty slots not assignment slots. In the Fleet Embassy Store it clearly says +1 Active Duty Assignment Slot 50k FC, 75k FC, 100k FC.
They have, the answer is no... only new projects slotted after the upgrade that grants the discount.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
The embassy ones are for Duty Officer Assignment Slots... I thought the same thing. Instead of 20 Doff Assignments, you can have up to 23.
Edit: I.e. up to 23 Doff Assignment slots, not active duty officers (space/ground)
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Was this mentioned in this thread?
Thx. If so that is very disappointing and gives less incentive to work on the Mine the farther your base is along.
Anyway....So the Vulgate or whomever, in Cardasian space gave this mine to the Romulans? And the Romulans sold it to the Ferengi, who sold it to the federation? Sounds like the same irrational reasoning that makes my Romulan a Klingon ally who is saving federation ships from wormholes. Your writers should really put a little more thought into making these narratives less convoluted.
That being said, season 8 is a lot of fun. Thanks for the effort!