The fact that the mission made people uncomfortable suggests that it was a complete success, and that the designers should feel proud that they've managed to provoke an emotional response in an MMO.
The fact that the mission made people uncomfortable suggests that it was a complete success, and that the designers should feel proud that they've managed to provoke an emotional response in an MMO.
I think that they are gonna have a problem with PETA over this mission. JMO All in all I think it's a good mission.
The fact that the mission made people uncomfortable suggests that it was a complete success, and that the designers should feel proud that they've managed to provoke an emotional response in an MMO.
I couldn't have put it better myself, this mission was the first mission I've ever played in an MMO which provoked such a visceral reaction. I hate it it, I hated what I was doing and I hated why I was doing it - that's what makes it such a brilliant piece of storytelling.
I can sympathise with the OP - you've seen some things in your life that nobody should have to witness, but I don't think that means that Cryptic have made a mistake or are doing something they shouldn't because of it. You have my genuine sympathy, but I really hope they don't change a single thing about this mission. For me, it's up there with "Chain Of Command" and "In The Pale Moonlight" with absolutely fantastic pieces of uncomfortable storylines. Brilliantly written and very emotional, so I take my hat off to the writes on this one.
I would also recommend you skip it when LoR goes live - given how uncomfortable it made you the first time when you couldn't finish it.
The warning should still be put in because it can trigger painful memories or experiences for some people
You may laugh, but cute little dogs trigger painful memories for me....
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
I think that they are gonna have a problem with PETA over this mission. JMO All in all I think it's a good mission.
Yes, the People for Eating of Tasty Animals will probably be upset that the Epohhs weren't lightly braised and grilled rather than being vaped by thalaron.
I think that they are gonna have a problem with PETA over this mission. JMO All in all I think it's a good mission.
It's fine, you can use CPR on the poor space bunnies and bring them back to life. They hop around complete with that nasty-looking thalaron-affected texture, which I suppose makes them space bunny zombies.
I like to think they break out of their cage later, bite some of the ship's crew, and infect them.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
It's fine, you can use CPR on the poor space bunnies and bring them back to life. They hop around complete with that nasty-looking thalaron-affected texture, which I suppose makes them space bunny zombies.
I like to think they break out of their cage later, bite some of the ship's crew, and infect them.
Hey now...no spoiling the Tribble test weekend reward for folks!
Hey now...no spoiling the Tribble test weekend reward for folks!
Zombie Epohhs.
Okay that would be freakin' sweet. I would approve.
Though in partially-related topic, I would say I thought the space bunnies investigating you and following you around in the "discovering New Romulus" mission were a nice touch.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
Okay that would be freakin' sweet. I would approve.
Though in partially-related topic, I would say I thought the space bunnies investigating you and following you around in the "discovering New Romulus" mission were a nice touch.
That was actually a nice touch for me too. The epohs coming around after you shot and scared the big carnovores is something the character can observ as a widelife study.
Still this mission is to show how evil Hakeev and Sela are. It would not do it so if they were just making you steal some food supplies from a ferengi, right?
Ooooh..zombie epohs. They dont eat romulan marks, do they?
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
In the end though, as much as it may be a case of disagreeing with singling out this particular mission for those reasons when to an extent similar actions appear throughout the game...
...and though there are certainly countless things that will affect different people in different ways, so it would appear off to single this mission out for a warning...
...it's perhaps a case of making a special case in this case for certain missions introduced with LoR, eh?
This one upsets folks.
Personally, I was put off by The Undying and the interaction with Jensen. Likewise, that should perhaps have a warning.
At least you get mind-controlled. I haven't gotten to this mission yet, but it doesn't sound half as annoying to me as the Fed mission to secure the "secret weapons facility" where it turns out that the admiral forcing you to do it is in fact an Undine, and the facility is dedicated to innocent medical research. I twigged to the fact that something was weird about her shortly after we beamed in; halfway through I knew what she was - but I was never given an option to ignore (or even resist) her orders, only to continue to comply like a good little drone. (What I really wanted was an option where I could attempt to place her under arrest, triggering a variant on the ending cutscene - she'd still get away, but at least I wouldn't have been played for a fool the entire time.)
Here, you're being forced against your will, apparently you can resist in various ways, and you've also been brainwashed, not just stupid. I can live with that.
At least you get mind-controlled. I haven't gotten to this mission yet, but it doesn't sound half as annoying to me as the Fed mission to secure the "secret weapons facility" where it turns out that the admiral forcing you to do it is in fact an Undine, and the facility is dedicated to innocent medical research. I twigged to the fact that something was weird about her shortly after we beamed in; halfway through I knew what she was - but I was never given an option to ignore (or even resist) her orders, only to continue to comply like a good little drone. (What I really wanted was an option where I could attempt to place her under arrest, triggering a variant on the ending cutscene - she'd still get away, but at least I wouldn't have been played for a fool the entire time.)
Here, you're being forced against your will, apparently you can resist in various ways, and you've also been brainwashed, not just stupid. I can live with that.
This. I knew it was fishy really soon in the mission, and everything else was wrong. Very wrong. I felt dirty to shoot those poor guys.
In mind games you don't have a choice. You are forced to do so, it's wrong, but it's not as bad.
I can understand how people would like to avoid this mission. Still, it was (for me) a far cry from the mental trauma that Divide et Impera was the first time I played it.
That being said, it was easily the most powerful and memorable episode for me. Sure, we see plenty of movies to be entertained, but there are movies we should see that we shouldn't necessarily "enjoy", but still should watch anyway.
Thats what horrified me. That even when I was having a story about ME, Tovan's narcisistic personality disorder couldnt handle not have a line for two minutes and popped into my head.
Most other missions feel like im an extra in the Tovan show
Thats what horrified me. That even when I was having a story about ME, Tovan's narcisistic personality disorder couldnt handle not have a line for two minutes and popped into my head.
Most other missions feel like im an extra in the Tovan show
I agree, it would have been 100times better to have the character we play instead of Tovan. Having our free us talking to our brainwashed us would have been cool. Using our character in conversation, like with any BOFF.
Sort of schyzophrenic discussion.
You do remember that civilians, non-combatants, families and children live alongside Starfleet personnel on larger cruisers, right? Every time you blow away one of those nameless Galaxy-class starships, that's like a hundred dead children, ballpark estimate.
Atrocities and war crimes aren't some exception practiced only by the black hats in the Trek universe, it's a freaking norm.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
You do remember that civilians, non-combatants, families and children live alongside Starfleet personnel on larger cruisers, right? Every time you blow away one of those nameless Galaxy-class starships, that's like a hundred dead children, ballpark estimate.
Atrocities and war crimes aren't some exception practiced only by the black hats in the Trek universe, it's a freaking norm.
Oh aye, there's a fair few times where I don't agree with what the mission is making me do, and so I wait for the "enemies" to attack me first. So I can (reluctantly?) blow the hell out of them in self-defense.
But it's one thing to destroy a faceless ship, and quite another to pummel a doctor while they watch helplessly while my "good guys" butcher the rest of their group.
Ironically, it feels a little good to feel bad about these kind of things, because it means I still have SOME empathy left, even for electronic illusions dancing on my screen. :P
(Oh, and this is also why I don't play Klingons...)
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).
No war criminal should be allowed to get away with their actions.
NOW - if the above is completely false and it was nothing along those lines.... you need stop moaning about a mission on a game.
If you have post traumatic stress then you should not be playing any type of war game.
For the record... the cuter the animal the better it tastes.... just saying
Thats what horrified me. That even when I was having a story about ME, Tovan's narcisistic personality disorder couldnt handle not have a line for two minutes and popped into my head.
Most other missions feel like im an extra in the Tovan show
Yeah, I'm in agreement with this one. This is supposed to be my conscience...so why is it Tovan? Seriously, make it our own mind, not Tovan's. This is supposed to be MY story. I'M the captain of this show. Not Tovan.
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).
PEACE
I dont wish to insult you, but you seem very naive. This is not the place to discuss this train of thought, but there are a great many documentaries about vietnam, Afghanistan, and mogadishu that can give the in-experienced a general concept..
There's a profound difference between Divide Et Impera and Mind Games that I think explains why I feel the need for a trigger warning in the case of one but not the other.
Divide Et Impera is the worst mission I've ever played in an MMO. It's badly written, badly executed, and absolutely no fun. The player sees the betrayal coming a mile away and their character is played as a fool. It's just... awful. And, while it definitely calls up bad feelings (frustration, anger, desire to uninstall the game and do anything else at all), those bad feelings are neither the intention of the design nor based on trauma.
Mind Games, on the other hand, is brilliant. It might be the BEST episode in the game, on the absolute opposite end of the quality scale from Divide Et Impera. Outside Secret World and its amazing writing and voice acting, it's the only time I've ever been deeply affected by an MMO mission's story. It's executed brilliantly, placing the player in their character's head through using the interface to strip agency from the player at the same time the events in game strip it from the character.
And, due to its brilliance, it has an ability, unparalleled in any other mission in the game - perhaps in the genre - to call back traumatic feelings from terrible experiences. It brings back the OPs feelings from Vietnam, it feels to me like assault. It's an experience, and a brilliantly executed one, but for those who've had experiences that play on the same emotions outside the world of gaming, it is, currently, a deeply unwelcome surprise.
It should not be removed from the game. It should NEVER be removed from the game. But it needs to have a near-zero chance of sneaking up on a player it can hit that hard.
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).
You, sir or madam, are an ill-informed jackwad. I sincerely hope that you are able to continue in your delusion, and are never yourself affected by such levels of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (the nightmares are no fun at all, for one).
My roommate's HMMWV was blown up in Iraq. He was one of three survivors. To this day, he can't sleep without some heavy medications, because he simply can't calm down enough. Every shadow could contain an assassin; every bump in the road could have been an IED. War films are out of the question, and July 4th is his least favorite day of the year because of all the flashbacks.
And he was a cook. His worst "war crime" involved delivering MREs because there was no power to the kitchen. I can't even imagine what the poor ground infantry are going through. And the strains from 'Nam were in some ways worse; at least nobody waited at the airfield for my roommate's platoon, standing by to spit on them and call them names.
Please, if you are that completely ignorant on a given topic, just don't speak. Let us continue to assume you're not so poorly educated.
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).PEACE
I'm going to be banned for this, but sometimes you just need to take your punishment.
You need to shut the [censored] up and take your kool-aid drinking, ignorant, self-absorbed self and go away. You have NO idea what you're talking about, and obviously have no idea what PTSD can do to a person, nor the idea of what war actually entails.
Your assumption that the poster did the stuff you accused him of is ignorant in the extreme. How do you know he didn't see the aftermath of what the enemy did, the horror of it, and decide in this scenario that he didn't want to be the person committing those atrocities. Do I know what happened, no. Nor do I want to know, but your assumption and calling him a war criminal, someone who was just doing his job, without knowing the facts, makes you into a complete and utter [censored].
PTSD is a sickness, one that can never be truly cured, just contained and made better. All kinds of things can create it in war, and all kinds of things can trigger it. Who are you in your self-righteous egotistical manner to judge one of the worlds finest, one who fought for his country, without knowing any of the FACTS.
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).
No war criminal should be allowed to get away with their actions.
NOW - if the above is completely false and it was nothing along those lines.... you need stop moaning about a mission on a game.
If you have post traumatic stress then you should not be playing any type of war game.
For the record... the cuter the animal the better it tastes.... just saying
PEACE
In war, the only crime is cowardice.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I think the game episode "Mindegame" is a reference to the season 6, 2 part episode of TNG called "Chain of Command", where Captain Picard was captured by Cardassians and tortured. It was a dark and disturbing episode much like in the game.
I admit I was disturbed and felt awkward doing this mission the first time, but then I realized it's just a game.
Comments
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Reading thread, I may be wrong on skip being available here. Which would be a shame.
I think that they are gonna have a problem with PETA over this mission. JMO All in all I think it's a good mission.
I couldn't have put it better myself, this mission was the first mission I've ever played in an MMO which provoked such a visceral reaction. I hate it it, I hated what I was doing and I hated why I was doing it - that's what makes it such a brilliant piece of storytelling.
I can sympathise with the OP - you've seen some things in your life that nobody should have to witness, but I don't think that means that Cryptic have made a mistake or are doing something they shouldn't because of it. You have my genuine sympathy, but I really hope they don't change a single thing about this mission. For me, it's up there with "Chain Of Command" and "In The Pale Moonlight" with absolutely fantastic pieces of uncomfortable storylines. Brilliantly written and very emotional, so I take my hat off to the writes on this one.
I would also recommend you skip it when LoR goes live - given how uncomfortable it made you the first time when you couldn't finish it.
Kirk's Protege.
You may laugh, but cute little dogs trigger painful memories for me....
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Yes, the People for Eating of Tasty Animals will probably be upset that the Epohhs weren't lightly braised and grilled rather than being vaped by thalaron.
Oddly enough, it's pretty similar to their Pokemon spoof. Showing the cruelty in an obviously cruel manner.
It's fine, you can use CPR on the poor space bunnies and bring them back to life. They hop around complete with that nasty-looking thalaron-affected texture, which I suppose makes them space bunny zombies.
I like to think they break out of their cage later, bite some of the ship's crew, and infect them.
Spock's Brain.
Hey now...no spoiling the Tribble test weekend reward for folks!
Zombie Epohhs.
Okay that would be freakin' sweet. I would approve.
Though in partially-related topic, I would say I thought the space bunnies investigating you and following you around in the "discovering New Romulus" mission were a nice touch.
Spock's Brain.
That was actually a nice touch for me too. The epohs coming around after you shot and scared the big carnovores is something the character can observ as a widelife study.
Still this mission is to show how evil Hakeev and Sela are. It would not do it so if they were just making you steal some food supplies from a ferengi, right?
Ooooh..zombie epohs. They dont eat romulan marks, do they?
...and though there are certainly countless things that will affect different people in different ways, so it would appear off to single this mission out for a warning...
...it's perhaps a case of making a special case in this case for certain missions introduced with LoR, eh?
This one upsets folks.
Personally, I was put off by The Undying and the interaction with Jensen. Likewise, that should perhaps have a warning.
I am more offended by having to listen to Tovan's woman issues and being forced to be concerned about his sister who I have never met.
Here, you're being forced against your will, apparently you can resist in various ways, and you've also been brainwashed, not just stupid. I can live with that.
In mind games you don't have a choice. You are forced to do so, it's wrong, but it's not as bad.
See my post in http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9419121 for the grim story. Which I should probably mention is highly spoilerific for Divide et Impera.
That being said, it was easily the most powerful and memorable episode for me. Sure, we see plenty of movies to be entertained, but there are movies we should see that we shouldn't necessarily "enjoy", but still should watch anyway.
Thats what horrified me. That even when I was having a story about ME, Tovan's narcisistic personality disorder couldnt handle not have a line for two minutes and popped into my head.
Most other missions feel like im an extra in the Tovan show
Sort of schyzophrenic discussion.
You do remember that civilians, non-combatants, families and children live alongside Starfleet personnel on larger cruisers, right? Every time you blow away one of those nameless Galaxy-class starships, that's like a hundred dead children, ballpark estimate.
Atrocities and war crimes aren't some exception practiced only by the black hats in the Trek universe, it's a freaking norm.
Spock's Brain.
Oh aye, there's a fair few times where I don't agree with what the mission is making me do, and so I wait for the "enemies" to attack me first. So I can (reluctantly?) blow the hell out of them in self-defense.
But it's one thing to destroy a faceless ship, and quite another to pummel a doctor while they watch helplessly while my "good guys" butcher the rest of their group.
Ironically, it feels a little good to feel bad about these kind of things, because it means I still have SOME empathy left, even for electronic illusions dancing on my screen. :P
(Oh, and this is also why I don't play Klingons...)
No war criminal should be allowed to get away with their actions.
NOW - if the above is completely false and it was nothing along those lines.... you need stop moaning about a mission on a game.
If you have post traumatic stress then you should not be playing any type of war game.
For the record... the cuter the animal the better it tastes.... just saying
PEACE
Great kid, don't get penisy!
Yeah, I'm in agreement with this one. This is supposed to be my conscience...so why is it Tovan? Seriously, make it our own mind, not Tovan's. This is supposed to be MY story. I'M the captain of this show. Not Tovan.
I dont wish to insult you, but you seem very naive. This is not the place to discuss this train of thought, but there are a great many documentaries about vietnam, Afghanistan, and mogadishu that can give the in-experienced a general concept..
There's a profound difference between Divide Et Impera and Mind Games that I think explains why I feel the need for a trigger warning in the case of one but not the other.
Divide Et Impera is the worst mission I've ever played in an MMO. It's badly written, badly executed, and absolutely no fun. The player sees the betrayal coming a mile away and their character is played as a fool. It's just... awful. And, while it definitely calls up bad feelings (frustration, anger, desire to uninstall the game and do anything else at all), those bad feelings are neither the intention of the design nor based on trauma.
Mind Games, on the other hand, is brilliant. It might be the BEST episode in the game, on the absolute opposite end of the quality scale from Divide Et Impera. Outside Secret World and its amazing writing and voice acting, it's the only time I've ever been deeply affected by an MMO mission's story. It's executed brilliantly, placing the player in their character's head through using the interface to strip agency from the player at the same time the events in game strip it from the character.
And, due to its brilliance, it has an ability, unparalleled in any other mission in the game - perhaps in the genre - to call back traumatic feelings from terrible experiences. It brings back the OPs feelings from Vietnam, it feels to me like assault. It's an experience, and a brilliantly executed one, but for those who've had experiences that play on the same emotions outside the world of gaming, it is, currently, a deeply unwelcome surprise.
It should not be removed from the game. It should NEVER be removed from the game. But it needs to have a near-zero chance of sneaking up on a player it can hit that hard.
Divide et Impera, on the other hand, can just go.
My roommate's HMMWV was blown up in Iraq. He was one of three survivors. To this day, he can't sleep without some heavy medications, because he simply can't calm down enough. Every shadow could contain an assassin; every bump in the road could have been an IED. War films are out of the question, and July 4th is his least favorite day of the year because of all the flashbacks.
And he was a cook. His worst "war crime" involved delivering MREs because there was no power to the kitchen. I can't even imagine what the poor ground infantry are going through. And the strains from 'Nam were in some ways worse; at least nobody waited at the airfield for my roommate's platoon, standing by to spit on them and call them names.
Please, if you are that completely ignorant on a given topic, just don't speak. Let us continue to assume you're not so poorly educated.
I'm going to be banned for this, but sometimes you just need to take your punishment.
You need to shut the [censored] up and take your kool-aid drinking, ignorant, self-absorbed self and go away. You have NO idea what you're talking about, and obviously have no idea what PTSD can do to a person, nor the idea of what war actually entails.
Your assumption that the poster did the stuff you accused him of is ignorant in the extreme. How do you know he didn't see the aftermath of what the enemy did, the horror of it, and decide in this scenario that he didn't want to be the person committing those atrocities. Do I know what happened, no. Nor do I want to know, but your assumption and calling him a war criminal, someone who was just doing his job, without knowing the facts, makes you into a complete and utter [censored].
PTSD is a sickness, one that can never be truly cured, just contained and made better. All kinds of things can create it in war, and all kinds of things can trigger it. Who are you in your self-righteous egotistical manner to judge one of the worlds finest, one who fought for his country, without knowing any of the FACTS.
In war, the only crime is cowardice.
I think the game episode "Mindegame" is a reference to the season 6, 2 part episode of TNG called "Chain of Command", where Captain Picard was captured by Cardassians and tortured. It was a dark and disturbing episode much like in the game.
I admit I was disturbed and felt awkward doing this mission the first time, but then I realized it's just a game.
system Lord Baal is dead
im sure most people in game wuld love the chance to gas the bunnies.
i am hoping the thing in my office is equiped with a thaleron generator.