There are no real player choices in Mindgame - except to proceed or not.
I stopped in the middle. I won't play this one. There are some things I won't do even in a game where I'm shooting everything in sight.
You have to make this in some way resistible - offer an alternative action, even if hidden.
If this does not change when it comes to Holodeck, I'll be skipping this mission every time.
No reward is worth compromising integrity, even in a game.
First off in the opening cutscene hakeev is physicly altering you
second because of those alteratiions you cannot say no you can refuse but it will only make it worse for you.
third : You are being "Indoctrinated" into the tal shiar...whether you want to or not
Fourth : You get a chance to turn the tables on them as you make your esscape
Fifth : This is a game and if you feel so emotionally attached to it you need to shut off your computer and take a break there is a real world out there go explore it
First off in the opening cutscene hakeev is physicly altering you
second because of those alteratiions you cannot say no you can refuse but it will only make it worse for you.
third : You are being "Indoctrinated" into the tal shiar...whether you want to or not
Fourth : You get a chance to turn the tables on them as you make your esscape
Fifth : This is a game and if you feel so emotionally attached to it you need to shut off your computer and take a break there is a real world out there go explore it
really its no different that what already happened. You have been indoctrinated into the republic against your will.
D'tan controls your mind
you join the KDF (or Fed) against your will.
You are forced to do many things you dont want.
The first 30 levels are just one big mind **** for me
really its no different that what already happened. You have been indoctrinated into the republic against your will.
D'tan controls your mind
you join the KDF (or Fed) against your will.
You are forced to do many things you dont want.
The first 30 levels are just one big mind **** for me
Lol yeah i agree the difference between D'Tan and hakeev is (Not the eye) D'Tan brainwashes you with kindness and flowers and a psychodelic painted warbird.
While Hakeev uses a mallet cracks you head open routes around in there with a stick lol
So yeah both are guilty of brainwashing they just use different methods.
Ah, but I'm not on TV - I'm a living person. And yes, it's a game.
You're basically saying it's Kobiashi Maru, and like Kirk, I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
I get to make choices. I don't watch Dexter or Saw or the Human Centipede.
Star Trek is about finding a way out of bad situations - turning certain death into a fighting chance to live.
This Mindgames thing is not, and if that's how they move the story I'll not participate.
My choice. Other people may not care.
So I'll just be skipping along.
You do have choices in the mission. Those choices have an effect on what rewards you will received in the mission. And by skipping the mission, I think you are doing yourself a disfavor. It's a good story. This mission can be considered your "Kobiashi Maru". How you conduct yourself in the face of an unwinnable situation.
SPOILERS.....
Even the great James T. Kirk needed help on occasion to come out on top: "Bread and Circuses"
I'm not saying to remove the mission from the game, but give us the option of not playing it.. It's a mainline mission, so it has to be played through. there is no choice. The player is forced to go through this.. I'd rather not again ( of course after doing the Vault three times in a row ( different characters ) I'd rather not relive all the lvl 30 - 40 missions over again, but it doesnt look like much choice there either..
You do have the option to not play it. Drop the mission and your have a "Skip" button on the Episodes selection window.
up to you. no one is going to change the entire structure of a mission because it bothers you. i think you are taking things way too seriously for a computer game.
you are meant to be forced as that is the story. you can delay it but just like la forge was indoctrinated, you are too. there is not choice.
and life is not fair. good people have been forced to do bad things in tv and film, not just sci-fi.
WHOA!! duuude your avatar is like freaking me out maan it like looks like picard but looks like a romulan its such a trip maaaan:eek:
Dude this Mol'Rihan pot D'tan is passing out is coool time to roll another fatty and go like fly around nimbus going around and around and around..and around.:cool:
Like the universe is a circle and like if you go in a circle you like become a circle then you like become the universe ......whoa the universe is grooovy
I do believe "skip" is available to those who might have trouble with this mission. A warning might not be a bad idea.
However, as someone who didn't have any similar real life experience, this mission seems to me like one of the best in STO. It shows you how, sometimes, no matter how hard you try, it ends badly.
Oh, and there are 2 accolades at least. (Hint, either try to resist or be a 'good' Tal Shiar agent.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Wow. Tons of people have resorted to trolling in a fashion they've decided was justified to deride another forum member who'se opinion differed from their own and made his protests known. I hear people praising the STO community due to the behavior of its members... but they're probably not basing such pronouncements on threads like these.
Regardless of the opening poster's circumstances, he wants something that we pretty much all want in the game: meaningful choices, and the ability to make a difference. Some of us contrast with each other by either being okay with the story told, or acknowledging that Cryptic's mission structure limits such choices from actually happening despite competitors being well capable of doing the same, or plain just not caring.
But for most of you people reading my post, he's talking about something you actually want too... and probably don't expect to have. Can you really blame him for having his reasons or deciding to play ostrich with this mission because his sensibilities don't match yours?
The cynical may just flag this as complaining about complaining. Be my guest. But I think this is beneath you.
Regardless of the opening poster's circumstances, he wants something that we pretty much all want in the game: meaningful choices, and the ability to make a difference. Some of us contrast with each other by either being okay with the story told, or acknowledging that Cryptic's mission structure limits such choices from actually happening despite competitors being well capable of doing the same, or plain just not caring.
this one thing I say swtor got right and sto got it wrong in swtor you can make choices that affect the out come of a mission or instances which would be the equivalent of stf's in this game even the choices you make affect the out come of the cutscenes not to say the light and dark side system
this game should not be every one is a good guy there where captains in the show that went renegade or was a pirates
You have no free will that's the point of the mission, ultimately you do what Sela want's. There is no option to choose to be good and they just let you go, these people are evil, if they can't turn you they kill you, mission failed.
What I would like though is not necessarily rewards for resisting, but some kind of effect, like being able to shoot the security officer in the holodeck or getting the victim you are borgifying to actually run amok, sure it results in you landing back in the sickbay for another treatment but at least you get a visual reward for resisting. That said all you need to get from the mission is that these people are irredeemably evil, resisting and getting some reward would only prolong the mission up to the point where encounter the guy that frees you.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
You have no free will that's the point of the mission, ultimately you do what Sela want's.
What I would like though is not necessarily rewards for resisting, but some kind of effect, like being able to shoot the security officer in the holodeck or getting the victim you are borgifying to actually run amok, sure it results in you landing back in the sickbay for another treatment but at least you get a visual reward for resisting.
Hmm, such a "visual reward" would be distracting. There's the accolade (and title, as it seems).
It's specifically not granting any "visual reward" to stress the point that you submit and there's no point in resisting. You'll always end up doing what they want.
EDIT: And since that's indeed potentially very disconcerting and disturbing, I'd agree for them to add a warning at starting the mission.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Yup better to just go with the flow until you run into the guy that helps you.
I just noticed someone here praising SWTOR for giving you choices, he might want to check their forums where there have been quite a few complaints from people who didn't like how that game would let you be a truly horrible individual, so there is something to be said on both sides of the argument about choices.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
this one thing I say swtor got right and sto got it wrong in swtor you can make choices that affect the out come of a mission or instances which would be the equivalent of stf's in this game even the choices you make affect the out come of the cutscenes not to say the light and dark side system
this game should not be every one is a good guy there where captains in the show that went renegade or was a pirates
Despite the appearance of choices TOR has, they never really affected a whole lot...and the bigger choices, like ending an NPC's life, well...whether you kill said-important NPC or save them, it doesn't matter, you'll never see them again anyway. It makes it easier on the TOR devs to give you the appearance of choices, as it's harder to add in all the potential split-offs of a truly world-changing choice in an MMO hundreds to millions play. In the end, you'll do the same missions going through the same motions each linear play-through of a specific character arc no matter what choices you're given.
STO basically handles choices in the same manner, though with somewhat less fanfare or bulletin points on the back of the retail box proclaiming "You've got choices!"
As far as the mission the op refers to, it's a brilliant mission and well-worth going through to the end as you'll miss out on whatever twists and turnabouts occur.
I understand you don't wish to be forced to perform certain actions as your character, but that's what's going on...your character is being forced to perform certain actions against their will. See it through and you'll be rewarded. Stop there, and you'll leave it where your character is in the process of being broken.
Despite the appearance of choices TOR has, they never really affected a whole lot...and the bigger choices, like ending an NPC's life, well...whether you kill said-important NPC or save them, it doesn't matter, you'll never see them again anyway. It makes it easier on the TOR devs to give you the appearance of choices, as it's harder to add in all the potential split-offs of a truly world-changing choice in an MMO hundreds to millions play. In the end, you'll do the same missions going through the same motions each linear play-through of a specific character arc no matter what choices you're given.
STO basically handles choices in the same manner, though with somewhat less fanfare or bulletin points on the back of the retail box proclaiming "You've got choices!"
As far as the mission the op refers to, it's a brilliant mission and well-worth going through to the end as you'll miss out on whatever twists and turnabouts occur.
I understand you don't wish to be forced to perform certain actions as your character, but that's what's going on...your character is being forced to perform certain actions against their will. See it through and you'll be rewarded. Stop there, and you'll leave it where your character is in the process of being broken.
so any thing you did in swtor did not give you light side or dark side points? I would say killing off a npc is a big effect and its still way way more then sto is doing
sorry but swkotor and ME are big hits for this and you here you say its meaningless
so any thing you did in swtor did not give you light side or dark side points? I would say killing off a npc is a big effect and its still way way more then sto is doing
sorry but swkotor and ME are big hits for this and you here calling it more or less nothen
Light side points aren't a plot effect. They're mechanics with an illusion of a plot effect.
Light side points aren't a plot effect. They're mechanics with an illusion of a plot effect.
A very effective illusion, but still an illusion.
still way more then sto is doing or more then likely ever will and btw you got them light side dark side point from??? making moral choice that did affect your character look and dialogue options and gear you got and what would be boff's in them games again way more then sto
and I could be wrong on this but in swtor you can kill kira carsen a Jedi Knight class companion if you hate on sexy for I cant see why any would want to kill her btw she would be the equivalent to T'varo
still way more then sto is doing or more then likely ever will and btw you got them light side dark side point from??? making moral choice that did affect your character look and dialogue options and gear you got and what would be boff's in them games again way more then sto
and I could be wrong on this but in swtor you can kill kira carsen a Jedi Knight class companion if you hate on sexy for I cant see why any would want to kill her btw she would be the equivalent to T'varo
Its just a game mechanic, like choosing one of the two reputation bonuses.
Is choosing 3% critical chance bonus over bonus shields plot now?
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
This is EXACTLY why I keep arguing that this mission needs a trigger warning. Well, this, and its distinct parallel to... pardon the rather clumsy euphemism, but the filter eats the word that really ought to be used here and the point desperately needs making... non-consensual intimate activity.
This mission is BRILLIANT. It would be a TERRIBLE loss to the game to delete it. But players absolutely need to be warned before playing it, because there are a lot of people who will have very bad reactions to it.
I didn't trigger, I thought this mission was awesomesauce. I loved that I could fight tooth and nail every step of the way.
Also, was I the only one under the impression that most of this mission was all in your head?
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I simply assumed the entire indoctrination was a holodeck induced delusion, with the first "simulation" done deliberately to convince the character that the rest was real and not happening on the holodeck. Cuz I refuse to believe that Hakeev is stupid enough to let a prisoner that hasn't been completely indoctrinated wander around his ship by him/herself between indoctrination sessions.
Everything from shooting your Boff to the borg conversion was a holodeck delusion with the undercover agent hacking the holodeck database to communicate with you. The only "real" stuff happened after you woke up in the medbay after the brainwashing was broken.
It's been a few weeks, so I forgot about there being a holodeck involved.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
It's not the first time this issue has come up in an MMO. In WoW, to create a Death Knight, one must go through a storyline/starter area which requires at one point murdering your best friend in cold blood. A lot of people (including myself) refused to make a Death Knight character in part because even if it's only virtual, we won't participate in a scenario that is murder for the sake of depravity.
This is just one of those subjects that some people "get" and others don't.
Some people just want an interesting story and appreciate being in the midst of it, even if that story means murdering people or doing really terrible things. This may be compelling storytelling, but it is not heroic.
Others (like the OP) obviously enjoy the tension of striving to be better than their circumstances, of rising above, even in a video game, to do the moral thing. This is heroic.
The Star Trek universe has traditionally been about "being heroic" and even Cryptic's rationale for not allowing players to be Tal Shiar is based on the idea of being heroic, and not letting players be part of a faction where circumstance would require them to knowingly do evil.
It seems that they may be contradicting their own philosophy, even though it is for the sake of telling a compelling story.
Comments
this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
system Lord Baal is dead
First off in the opening cutscene hakeev is physicly altering you
second because of those alteratiions you cannot say no you can refuse but it will only make it worse for you.
third : You are being "Indoctrinated" into the tal shiar...whether you want to or not
Fourth : You get a chance to turn the tables on them as you make your esscape
Fifth : This is a game and if you feel so emotionally attached to it you need to shut off your computer and take a break there is a real world out there go explore it
really its no different that what already happened. You have been indoctrinated into the republic against your will.
D'tan controls your mind
you join the KDF (or Fed) against your will.
You are forced to do many things you dont want.
The first 30 levels are just one big mind **** for me
could have not said it better my self
system Lord Baal is dead
Lol yeah i agree the difference between D'Tan and hakeev is (Not the eye) D'Tan brainwashes you with kindness and flowers and a psychodelic painted warbird.
While Hakeev uses a mallet cracks you head open routes around in there with a stick lol
So yeah both are guilty of brainwashing they just use different methods.
I really hope they don't change it just because some bleeding heart idiots don't like it.
You do have choices in the mission. Those choices have an effect on what rewards you will received in the mission. And by skipping the mission, I think you are doing yourself a disfavor. It's a good story. This mission can be considered your "Kobiashi Maru". How you conduct yourself in the face of an unwinnable situation.
SPOILERS.....
Even the great James T. Kirk needed help on occasion to come out on top: "Bread and Circuses"
You do have the option to not play it. Drop the mission and your have a "Skip" button on the Episodes selection window.
WHOA!! duuude your avatar is like freaking me out maan it like looks like picard but looks like a romulan its such a trip maaaan:eek:
Dude this Mol'Rihan pot D'tan is passing out is coool time to roll another fatty and go like fly around nimbus going around and around and around..and around.:cool:
Like the universe is a circle and like if you go in a circle you like become a circle then you like become the universe ......whoa the universe is grooovy
However, as someone who didn't have any similar real life experience, this mission seems to me like one of the best in STO. It shows you how, sometimes, no matter how hard you try, it ends badly.
Oh, and there are 2 accolades at least. (Hint, either try to resist or be a 'good' Tal Shiar agent.)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I was the good girl Tal Shiar agent
system Lord Baal is dead
Now that's almost as bad as smashing dilithium.
Sela, Hakeev, come here! I need to teach you two about not destroying stuff that gives me purple gear!
only if other missions have HOKEY BEYOND BELIEF warning
Regardless of the opening poster's circumstances, he wants something that we pretty much all want in the game: meaningful choices, and the ability to make a difference. Some of us contrast with each other by either being okay with the story told, or acknowledging that Cryptic's mission structure limits such choices from actually happening despite competitors being well capable of doing the same, or plain just not caring.
But for most of you people reading my post, he's talking about something you actually want too... and probably don't expect to have. Can you really blame him for having his reasons or deciding to play ostrich with this mission because his sensibilities don't match yours?
The cynical may just flag this as complaining about complaining. Be my guest. But I think this is beneath you.
this one thing I say swtor got right and sto got it wrong in swtor you can make choices that affect the out come of a mission or instances which would be the equivalent of stf's in this game even the choices you make affect the out come of the cutscenes not to say the light and dark side system
this game should not be every one is a good guy there where captains in the show that went renegade or was a pirates
system Lord Baal is dead
What I would like though is not necessarily rewards for resisting, but some kind of effect, like being able to shoot the security officer in the holodeck or getting the victim you are borgifying to actually run amok, sure it results in you landing back in the sickbay for another treatment but at least you get a visual reward for resisting. That said all you need to get from the mission is that these people are irredeemably evil, resisting and getting some reward would only prolong the mission up to the point where encounter the guy that frees you.
Hmm, such a "visual reward" would be distracting. There's the accolade (and title, as it seems).
It's specifically not granting any "visual reward" to stress the point that you submit and there's no point in resisting. You'll always end up doing what they want.
EDIT: And since that's indeed potentially very disconcerting and disturbing, I'd agree for them to add a warning at starting the mission.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I just noticed someone here praising SWTOR for giving you choices, he might want to check their forums where there have been quite a few complaints from people who didn't like how that game would let you be a truly horrible individual, so there is something to be said on both sides of the argument about choices.
Despite the appearance of choices TOR has, they never really affected a whole lot...and the bigger choices, like ending an NPC's life, well...whether you kill said-important NPC or save them, it doesn't matter, you'll never see them again anyway. It makes it easier on the TOR devs to give you the appearance of choices, as it's harder to add in all the potential split-offs of a truly world-changing choice in an MMO hundreds to millions play. In the end, you'll do the same missions going through the same motions each linear play-through of a specific character arc no matter what choices you're given.
STO basically handles choices in the same manner, though with somewhat less fanfare or bulletin points on the back of the retail box proclaiming "You've got choices!"
As far as the mission the op refers to, it's a brilliant mission and well-worth going through to the end as you'll miss out on whatever twists and turnabouts occur.
I understand you don't wish to be forced to perform certain actions as your character, but that's what's going on...your character is being forced to perform certain actions against their will. See it through and you'll be rewarded. Stop there, and you'll leave it where your character is in the process of being broken.
so any thing you did in swtor did not give you light side or dark side points? I would say killing off a npc is a big effect and its still way way more then sto is doing
sorry but swkotor and ME are big hits for this and you here you say its meaningless
system Lord Baal is dead
Light side points aren't a plot effect. They're mechanics with an illusion of a plot effect.
A very effective illusion, but still an illusion.
still way more then sto is doing or more then likely ever will and btw you got them light side dark side point from??? making moral choice that did affect your character look and dialogue options and gear you got and what would be boff's in them games again way more then sto
and I could be wrong on this but in swtor you can kill kira carsen a Jedi Knight class companion if you hate on sexy for I cant see why any would want to kill her
system Lord Baal is dead
a ship is to small for what I have planed for the RR
system Lord Baal is dead
ever sense they got rid of the mystery room for the hydroponics nope i do as well
Its just a game mechanic, like choosing one of the two reputation bonuses.
Is choosing 3% critical chance bonus over bonus shields plot now?
I didn't trigger, I thought this mission was awesomesauce. I loved that I could fight tooth and nail every step of the way.
Also, was I the only one under the impression that most of this mission was all in your head?
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
It's been a few weeks, so I forgot about there being a holodeck involved.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
but yeah, I also had the feeling that the indoctrination part wasn't actually "Real" when I first played it.
My character Tsin'xing
This is just one of those subjects that some people "get" and others don't.
Some people just want an interesting story and appreciate being in the midst of it, even if that story means murdering people or doing really terrible things. This may be compelling storytelling, but it is not heroic.
Others (like the OP) obviously enjoy the tension of striving to be better than their circumstances, of rising above, even in a video game, to do the moral thing. This is heroic.
The Star Trek universe has traditionally been about "being heroic" and even Cryptic's rationale for not allowing players to be Tal Shiar is based on the idea of being heroic, and not letting players be part of a faction where circumstance would require them to knowingly do evil.
It seems that they may be contradicting their own philosophy, even though it is for the sake of telling a compelling story.