yeahh, but then its easier for me to kill humans than animals anyway.. Yes, I AM a vietnam vet.. I AM a monster according to a great many people still and not much different than Hakeev ( and i never fired a single shot against another human being ).. Yes, I DID trigger on this mission, badly.. Those military ships? the pirates? all of em? i'll kill them a million times over. they knew the risks and they took their chances, It's they're turn to die.. The epoohs or whatever they are did not know the risks, they did not volunteer, and they do not deserve to die while defenseless and helpless..
This episode caused me to remember. I dont want to remember. That was fourty years ago and i dont want those memories any more. they arent fun, they arent part of a game and they are as offensive as it can possibly get. Just like this mission.
I'm a Vet too although not of Vietnam but I can see where you are coming from and for that I say Thank you for your Service. You are not a monster, war is truly Hell on earth, those that serve deserve our praise and thanks not distain and hate. This story rubbed me the wrong way too.
Honestly only the Borg experiments caused me to flinch.... Epohhs are one step up from vermin. And nothing else involved inflicting any actual harm on others.
It's not the first time this issue has come up in an MMO. In WoW, to create a Death Knight, one must go through a storyline/starter area which requires at one point murdering your best friend in cold blood. A lot of people (including myself) refused to make a Death Knight character in part because even if it's only virtual, we won't participate in a scenario that is murder for the sake of depravity.
I can say first hand you ppl where a small group paladins/death knights are the 2 most over played classes in the game
I can say first hand you ppl where a small group paladins/death knights are the 2 most over played classes in the game
It is not in my nature to play a cold, ruthless and bloodthirsty character as to me that is the villain, but to others this kind of character give them a feeling of power that they cant get from the normal Hero type.
I simply assumed the entire indoctrination was a holodeck induced delusion, with the first "simulation" done deliberately to convince the character that the rest was real and not happening on the holodeck. Cuz I refuse to believe that Hakeev is stupid enough to let a prisoner that hasn't been completely indoctrinated wander around his ship by him/herself between indoctrination sessions.
Everything from shooting your Boff to the borg conversion was a holodeck delusion with the undercover agent hacking the holodeck database to communicate with you. The only "real" stuff happened after you woke up in the medbay after the brainwashing was broken.
That's the genius of "Mind Games". It can play out at so many levels. There is no clear signals as to what is real, a Holodeck or just in the character's own mind. It's a question that has no clear answer. The question has to be answer by the player.
Considering that for pretty much the entire game you are destroying ships and killing people, since rarely are you given non-lethal alternatives, there's even a mission where an Undine tricks you into murdering a group of peaceful medical researchers. Under those circumstances it's pretty ironic to be getting up in arms about this small group of tasks that are fairly innocuous in comparison to what the game regularly requires you to do. At least in this mission you are given an excuse for your murderous behavior in that you are under some kind of mind control and have no choice.
This really calls to a larger issue in the game, where unlike in Star Trek you are almost never given the option to resolve matters peacefully.
The mission does serve one important goal, it exemplifies why the Tal'Shiar are an organization that you should not want any part of.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Considering that for pretty much the entire game you are destroying ships and killing people, since rarely are you given non-lethal alternatives, there's even a mission where an Undine tricks you into murdering a group of peaceful medical researchers. Under those circumstances it's pretty ironic to be getting up in arms about this small group of tasks that are fairly innocuous in comparison to what the game regularly requires you to do. At least in this mission you are given an excuse for your murderous behavior in that you are under some kind of mind control and have no choice.
This really calls to a larger issue in the game, where unlike in Star Trek you are almost never given the option to resolve matters peacefully.
The mission does serve one important goal, it exemplifies why the Tal'Shiar are an organization that you should not want any part of.
in the next mission you release a Thaleron bomb on a planet killing ALL organic life....
Actually that's an earlier mission and you aren't the one pulling the trigger. The whole game is essentially geared to seeking new life, new civilizations, boldly going where no-one has gone before, then blowing the TRIBBLE out of whatever is found there.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
There are no real player choices in Mindgame - except to proceed or not.
I stopped in the middle. I won't play this one. There are some things I won't do even in a game where I'm shooting everything in sight.
You have to make this in some way resistible - offer an alternative action, even if hidden.
If this does not change when it comes to Holodeck, I'll be skipping this mission every time.
No reward is worth compromising integrity, even in a game.
The point of the mission is to make your Character feel like they were powerless to control themselves and Mentally Violated by your captors which the mission does quite nicely.
How else would you build up animosity between your Character and the Evil Tal Shiar if the Tal Shiar's best forms of torcher or mind control can be so easily overcome?
Sometimes Characters need to be broken down before they can rise up.
The point of the mission is to make your Character feel like they were powerless to control themselves and Mentally Violated by your captors which the mission does quite nicely.
How else would you build up animosity between your Character and the Evil Tal Shiar if the Tal Shiar's best forms of torcher or mind control can be so easily overcome?
Sometimes Characters need to be broken down before they can rise up.
I would rather be like Picard "There are Three Lights"
Sometimes Characters need to be broken down before they can rise up.
No! They Dont.
Its extremely naive to think that people arent capable of recognizing evil and require reprogramming to understand at least the necessity of combating that that evil. The human animal is no more an amazing creature than any other animal on this planet, but we are animals first and eternally. We seek out threats to our security and we eliminate them as quickly ( and usually as viciously ) as we can. We dont need programming. We've got fifty thousand years of species specific programming that makes us singularly the most self destructive species on the face of the earth. We watch for threats like Hakeev instinctually.. We purposely find the worst in everything because of our species driven instinct and wipe it out..
We dont need to be broken down.. We need to get out of the trees we were spawned in.
Actually that's an earlier mission and you aren't the one pulling the trigger. The whole game is essentially geared to seeking new life, new civilizations, boldly going where no-one has gone before, then blowing the TRIBBLE out of whatever is found there.
Yeah, a Reman had his base rigged to self-destruct. The self destruct device was a Thalaron bomb that wiped out the whole planet.
It's never clear whether the Tal'Shiar caught anyone else you helped escape in that mission, but you do throw the one guy under the bus.
I'm not trying to be insensitive but I have to ask what game the people who are being offended by this were playing prior to this scenario? Because it certainly wasn't STO. The game play of Star Trek Online revolves around, often unnecessary, killing and destruction and in spite of being explicitly shown how evil the Tal'Shiar are in this scenario, we still have people complaining because they can't play that role. We have people who want to be Tal'Shiar, want to be the back stabbing Romulans of old, want to be unliberated Borg, want to be tyrannical Cardasians. So for those who find aspects of this game psychologically distressing, I would submit that perhaps you are playing the wrong game.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Well, to be fair... your options are pretty limited.... let the Reman guy die alone, or.... die with him....
There you go, self preservation wins out.
They could have expanded it into another mission where you somehow single-handedly fight your way through the labyrinthine corridors of a mile long starship to a means of escape, but that would tax believability to the extreme and for what? You lose access to higher levels of Tal'shiar activity needed for the later missions and you have earned the trust of someone who willingly destroyed his own world, but has no relevance to anything that happens afterward. The guy deserves to be handed over to the Tal'Shiar for what he did.
That said, there is such a thing as over-thinking things and it is a huge mistake to attach real world moral values to a video game. People need to lighten up about this.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Mindgame is one of my favorite missions. Hakeev totally brainwashes you but then you get free turn around and kick the **** out of him and his little ship.
It is not in my nature to play a cold, ruthless and bloodthirsty character as to me that is the villain, but to others this kind of character give them a feeling of power that they cant get from the normal Hero type.
sorry but you shouldn't be playing a romulan then romulan are always looking to kill to get a head
romulans don't act like janeway kirk picard or sisko
Mindgame is one of my favorite missions. Hakeev totally brainwashes you but then you get free turn around and kick the **** out of him and his little ship.
That's the one where you infiltrate the Tal'Shiar by pretending to rescue the civilians but in truth turn them over to the Tal'Shiar.
Most of the human race has been brainwashed to not question or challenge and to agree with the party line regardless of how stupid it is.. your right, most of the human race are sheep. Farmers tending their fields.. Not hunters searching for prey, so when people are yold that Idi Amin is a great guy, they want to believe it.. But there are always wolves in the flock waiting for the idi Amin's of the world to pop their heads up and provide a clear shot..
Just played the mission. I took the green answers at every opportunity, until being forced into doing what they wanted; got the perk "There Are Four Lights!" and the title "Defiant". And thanks for the tip about resurrecting the zombie epohhs - hope the little buggers broke containment later and turned the whole freaking ship into zombies!
It was - interesting. I put on a Tal Shiar costume for the mission, and felt a visceral need to go find a tailor the moment the mission ended so I could change my clothes back again. It was the closest I could come to making my character take a shower.
When I first posted about this, I knew there would be a lot of different opinions about it.
But none of the discussion has changed my original thought about it. I've already skipped it, so it's not an issue for my character any longer.
One good thing is that when lots of people comment, the devs get a pretty good view of what people think.
And I think that's one purpose of the Open Beta.
Story is important to me. I know a lot of people just want the points, just move up, just get the accolades - just get the next big ship. But to me, this is a continuing story about a universe that's important to me - enough so that I purchased a lifetime membership.
I think it's important to give feedback about what I like and what I don't. I always expect disagreement, because none of us have the same goals for playing the game.
It would be interesting to see a survey of players to find out what parts of the game are liked by whom. Probably everything is both loved and hated.
More choices - that's always important to me. The best foundry missions have different results happen from my choices.
So, maybe, if I don't see the kinds of missions I like, I should make some that I'd like to play.
Thanks everyone for your honest opinions, whether I agree or no.
there where episodes in the series that where much much worse then this mission i hope they do nothing to it.
if it made you disgusted then it worked it is set up to make you hate the tal sheiar and want to stop them
this who thread and the discussion there in marks the whole mission as a success. it was to make you think and create feeling. even if that feeling was you thought the mission was horrible becuase it took a way contol well that was the point.
there where episodes in the series that where much much worse then this mission i hope they do nothing to it.
if it made you disgusted then it worked it is set up to make you hate the tal sheiar and want to stop them
this who thread and the discussion there in marks the whole mission as a success. it was to make you think and create feeling. even if that feeling was you thought the mission was horrible becuase it took a way contol well that was the point.
So your saying the mission is redundant?? I agree.. We already hated the tal shiar for killing thr people we grew up with: for destroying our home, for destroying the homes and lives of others like us, and for demanding we live under their rule ( or rather the iconian rule ). Yes, the mission is completely redundant and unnecessary. It should be gotten rid of.
no it shows just how far the tal shiar is will to go it should stay
don;t like it? skip it
this^^^^^^^ and its not like they did not kidnap ppl in the show and do mind altering things like the one sela kidnaps Geordi to have him kill some high up klingon
If you are effected by this mission on a game because of something over 40 years ago, then you must have been part of some very illegal and brutal war crime and you should be held accountable for your actions (even if those actions were that you did not inform your superiors).
No war criminal should be allowed to get away with their actions.
NOW - if the above is completely false and it was nothing along those lines.... you need stop moaning about a mission on a game.
If you have post traumatic stress then you should not be playing any type of war game.
For the record... the cuter the animal the better it tastes.... just saying
PEACE
Please just...go sign up and get shipped off to Afghanistan. Oh, wait, I wouldn't want to inflict your kind on the rest of the soldiers there OR the Afghans. I'd settle for you just keeping your post count at 4.
As for the mission, I did find it to be a very brilliant, but disturbing, episode. I do wish some further options were given that permitted the player to avoid some of the more brutal actions required in the mission. If that would be difficult to implement or destructive to the storyline, a disclaimer of sorts and option to skip or to skip PARTS of the mission would be a great idea. In Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, I believe, there was a controversial mission that involved permitting (and possibly joining in with) a terrorist to shoot civilians at an airport. The game included a disclaimer and option to skip. Not a bad idea here, I think.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
So your saying the mission is redundant?? I agree.. We already hated the tal shiar for killing thr people we grew up with: for destroying our home, for destroying the homes and lives of others like us, and for demanding we live under their rule ( or rather the iconian rule ). Yes, the mission is completely redundant and unnecessary. It should be gotten rid of.
Unbelievable.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Please just...go sign up and get shipped off to Afghanistan. Oh, wait, I wouldn't want to inflict your kind on the rest of the soldiers there OR the Afghans. I'd settle for you just keeping your post count at 4.
As for the mission, I did find it to be a very brilliant, but disturbing, episode. I do wish some further options were given that permitted the player to avoid some of the more brutal actions required in the mission. If that would be difficult to implement or destructive to the storyline, a disclaimer of sorts and option to skip or to skip PARTS of the mission would be a great idea. In Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, I believe, there was a controversial mission that involved permitting (and possibly joining in with) a terrorist to shoot civilians at an airport. The game included a disclaimer and option to skip. Not a bad idea here, I think.
They were being intentionally controversial though. This mission is honestly pretty meek by comparison.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Comments
I'm a Vet too although not of Vietnam but I can see where you are coming from and for that I say Thank you for your Service. You are not a monster, war is truly Hell on earth, those that serve deserve our praise and thanks not distain and hate. This story rubbed me the wrong way too.
My character Tsin'xing
I can say first hand you ppl where a small group paladins/death knights are the 2 most over played classes in the game
system Lord Baal is dead
It is not in my nature to play a cold, ruthless and bloodthirsty character as to me that is the villain, but to others this kind of character give them a feeling of power that they cant get from the normal Hero type.
That's the genius of "Mind Games". It can play out at so many levels. There is no clear signals as to what is real, a Holodeck or just in the character's own mind. It's a question that has no clear answer. The question has to be answer by the player.
This really calls to a larger issue in the game, where unlike in Star Trek you are almost never given the option to resolve matters peacefully.
The mission does serve one important goal, it exemplifies why the Tal'Shiar are an organization that you should not want any part of.
in the next mission you release a Thaleron bomb on a planet killing ALL organic life....
The point of the mission is to make your Character feel like they were powerless to control themselves and Mentally Violated by your captors which the mission does quite nicely.
How else would you build up animosity between your Character and the Evil Tal Shiar if the Tal Shiar's best forms of torcher or mind control can be so easily overcome?
Sometimes Characters need to be broken down before they can rise up.
I would rather be like Picard "There are Three Lights"
No! They Dont.
Its extremely naive to think that people arent capable of recognizing evil and require reprogramming to understand at least the necessity of combating that that evil. The human animal is no more an amazing creature than any other animal on this planet, but we are animals first and eternally. We seek out threats to our security and we eliminate them as quickly ( and usually as viciously ) as we can. We dont need programming. We've got fifty thousand years of species specific programming that makes us singularly the most self destructive species on the face of the earth. We watch for threats like Hakeev instinctually.. We purposely find the worst in everything because of our species driven instinct and wipe it out..
We dont need to be broken down.. We need to get out of the trees we were spawned in.
My character Tsin'xing
I'm not trying to be insensitive but I have to ask what game the people who are being offended by this were playing prior to this scenario? Because it certainly wasn't STO. The game play of Star Trek Online revolves around, often unnecessary, killing and destruction and in spite of being explicitly shown how evil the Tal'Shiar are in this scenario, we still have people complaining because they can't play that role. We have people who want to be Tal'Shiar, want to be the back stabbing Romulans of old, want to be unliberated Borg, want to be tyrannical Cardasians. So for those who find aspects of this game psychologically distressing, I would submit that perhaps you are playing the wrong game.
My character Tsin'xing
They could have expanded it into another mission where you somehow single-handedly fight your way through the labyrinthine corridors of a mile long starship to a means of escape, but that would tax believability to the extreme and for what? You lose access to higher levels of Tal'shiar activity needed for the later missions and you have earned the trust of someone who willingly destroyed his own world, but has no relevance to anything that happens afterward. The guy deserves to be handed over to the Tal'Shiar for what he did.
That said, there is such a thing as over-thinking things and it is a huge mistake to attach real world moral values to a video game. People need to lighten up about this.
sorry but you shouldn't be playing a romulan then romulan are always looking to kill to get a head
romulans don't act like janeway kirk picard or sisko
system Lord Baal is dead
.............little.........!!!! :P
system Lord Baal is dead
Most of the human race has been brainwashed to not question or challenge and to agree with the party line regardless of how stupid it is.. your right, most of the human race are sheep. Farmers tending their fields.. Not hunters searching for prey, so when people are yold that Idi Amin is a great guy, they want to believe it.. But there are always wolves in the flock waiting for the idi Amin's of the world to pop their heads up and provide a clear shot..
ROFLMAO::
Good memory...
It was - interesting. I put on a Tal Shiar costume for the mission, and felt a visceral need to go find a tailor the moment the mission ended so I could change my clothes back again. It was the closest I could come to making my character take a shower.
But none of the discussion has changed my original thought about it. I've already skipped it, so it's not an issue for my character any longer.
One good thing is that when lots of people comment, the devs get a pretty good view of what people think.
And I think that's one purpose of the Open Beta.
Story is important to me. I know a lot of people just want the points, just move up, just get the accolades - just get the next big ship. But to me, this is a continuing story about a universe that's important to me - enough so that I purchased a lifetime membership.
I think it's important to give feedback about what I like and what I don't. I always expect disagreement, because none of us have the same goals for playing the game.
It would be interesting to see a survey of players to find out what parts of the game are liked by whom. Probably everything is both loved and hated.
More choices - that's always important to me. The best foundry missions have different results happen from my choices.
So, maybe, if I don't see the kinds of missions I like, I should make some that I'd like to play.
Thanks everyone for your honest opinions, whether I agree or no.
if it made you disgusted then it worked it is set up to make you hate the tal sheiar and want to stop them
this who thread and the discussion there in marks the whole mission as a success. it was to make you think and create feeling. even if that feeling was you thought the mission was horrible becuase it took a way contol well that was the point.
So your saying the mission is redundant?? I agree.. We already hated the tal shiar for killing thr people we grew up with: for destroying our home, for destroying the homes and lives of others like us, and for demanding we live under their rule ( or rather the iconian rule ). Yes, the mission is completely redundant and unnecessary. It should be gotten rid of.
don;t like it? skip it
this^^^^^^^ and its not like they did not kidnap ppl in the show and do mind altering things like the one sela kidnaps Geordi to have him kill some high up klingon
system Lord Baal is dead
Please just...go sign up and get shipped off to Afghanistan. Oh, wait, I wouldn't want to inflict your kind on the rest of the soldiers there OR the Afghans. I'd settle for you just keeping your post count at 4.
As for the mission, I did find it to be a very brilliant, but disturbing, episode. I do wish some further options were given that permitted the player to avoid some of the more brutal actions required in the mission. If that would be difficult to implement or destructive to the storyline, a disclaimer of sorts and option to skip or to skip PARTS of the mission would be a great idea. In Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, I believe, there was a controversial mission that involved permitting (and possibly joining in with) a terrorist to shoot civilians at an airport. The game included a disclaimer and option to skip. Not a bad idea here, I think.
Former/Cryptic Name: Captain_Hans_Langsdorff
Founding member, Special Service Squadron
"Fear God and Dread Nought." First Sea Lord, Adm. Jacky Fisher
Unbelievable.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
They were being intentionally controversial though. This mission is honestly pretty meek by comparison.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪