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A Public Service Announcement Regarding STO and Into Darkness
johngazman
Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!
ALL HANDS TO BATTLE STATIONS.
ALL HANDS TO BATTLE STATIONS.
Right. For those of you wondering, this does not contain spoilers for Into Darkness, but it does contain possible spoilers for Star Trek.
So Into Darkness has just released over here and it seems to me that in just about every thread I read someone is asking for the USS Vengeance or the JJVerse Enterprise or the uniforms or the redesigned Gorn or whatever.
It seems that despite people being told, these questions are still being asked. So here's the answer to all those questions and a brief explanation.
Q: Can we get the USS Vengeance/Other JJVerse Item in the game please?
A: No. Absolutely, categorically, empirically
NO.
Okay. Firstly this ultimately comes down to who holds the licensing rights to Star Trek. CBS control the license to all of the Star Trek series' (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY ENT) and all the films from The Motion Picture through to Nemesis. They also control this game, in a manner of speaking.
Star Trek (2009) and Into Darkness are licensed by Paramount. Now, admittedly, there are some overlaps between the two - characters, locations, objects etc. However, in the Grand Scheme of things, the "new" Star Trek films are to be considered more of a spin-off than a continuation of the story. In essence, and despite many peoples' dissapointment, STO is probably more Canon than the new Star Trek films.
But it goes further than that. Take a step back. Look at the plot of the original Star Trek reboot released in 2009 - for those who haven't yet seen it, SPOILERS ahead!
So Spock travels back in time through the black hole that stopped the Hobus Supernova following the destruction of Romulus and Remus. In the time he emerges into, there have been some significant alterations to the timeline - Kirk's father's death on the Kelvin and Kirk's entry into Starfleet to name a few - while the new film does pay homage, it's not a rerun of the events as they occur in established canon. In the timeline that is created by Spock and Nero going back in time, other events are also changed. Romulus and Remus still exist - as noted by Pike - and Vulcan is destroyed. Regardless of the fact that all is well and good at the end when Nero dies, the timeline does not revert. These events still happened.
Okay, enough rambling. The point i'm getting to is that if we were to have the USS Vengeance in this game, it would require the game to acknowledge the timeline created by the new Star Trek. That is impossible for two reasons;
1.) As noted, licensing issues prevent the ship from being used.
2.) Acknowledging the new timeline would mean that the game would cease to exist, since Spock and Nero changed the past. And again, they can't do that due to licensing.
Remember that not everything that is titled Star Trek is canon. If it were, then the fighting with the Borg would make no sense given the outcome of the Battle Of The Azure Nebula in the Destiny novels - something which I believe Cryptic picked up on and paid homage to in the Azure Nebula Red Alert. This does however, raise the question of how we're acknowledging the Vesta class in-game.
So. To sum up, those ships and items that appeared in or prior to Nemesis - they're fair game.
Anything from the two films that followed Nemesis - A big no-no. The only way it would happen is if CBS or Cryptic could pony up enough money to buy the rights to the new Star Trek films. Which won't happen because Paramount isn't stupid - JJAbrams has turned Star Trek into a big-action blockbuster that rakes in money, so there's no chance in hell they're selling it anytime soon.
IN SHORT
- No USS Enterprise from Star Trek and Into Darkness
- No USS Vengeance
- No Uniforms from the new films
HOWEVER
- The ship-class for the USS Kelvin is a possibility (Iowa-class)
- The Narada is a very, very, very slim possibility
- The Jellyfish is also a very, very slim possibility
- No USS Enterprise from Star Trek and Into Darkness
- No USS Vengeance
- No Uniforms from the new films
HOWEVER
- The ship-class for the USS Kelvin is a possibility (Iowa-class)
- The Narada is a very, very, very slim possibility
- The Jellyfish is also a very, very slim possibility
Those ships are very slim possibilities because all three existed before Nero altered the timeline by arriving in the past and destroying the USS Kelvin. Hence, an argument could be made for the Kelvin that it technically existed at some point in the Prime Universe too. The Narada and Jellyfish also existed in the Prime Universe - indeed the Jellyfish is mentioned on one of the in-game loading screens.
That said, don't get your hopes up. There is very little chance of seeing the Jellyfish or the Narada. As for the Kelvin - just look at how much campaigning is going on to get a T5 Constitution-class into the game. I'd consider a Kelvin-class ship off the cards too for now.
Hope this clears it all up.
--
P.S. A quick mention of the difference between the Mirror Universe and the Alternate Reality.
The Mirror Universe exists in parallel with the Prime Universe. The Alternate Reality is formed by rewriting the history of the Prime Universe.
Simple.
Additionally, this is good breakdown of how convoluted movie rights can get.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Post edited by johngazman on
0
Comments
Great post and great points overall, but one little issue with this point - all of the events leading up to Spock and Nero's departure to the alternate timeline are present in this game, and Spock and Nero are not (Hobus supernova, destruction of Romulus, Red Matter Capacitor, etc...) so, acknowledging the alternate timeline has already tacitly been done and to do it formally wouldn't cause the STO timeline to cease or be changed in any appreciable way. Cryptic had access to those events, which appeared in the interquel between Nemesis and ST2009, by way of the comic books that detail the events leading up to ST2009 and which are, apparently, at least partially covered by the CBS license.
But, in short: no, nothing from the JJ Trek movies can appear in this game that hasn't already, due primarily to licensing issues.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
It should also note that Cryptics lack of licensing rights does apply to other sources outside the TV series/Movies up to Nemesis.
Specifically the Vesta took a great deal of effort on Cryptics part to get in game. It was far from easy and no doubt took lots of legal maneuvering (and possibly money) to get in game.
As a matter of safe speculation, if it wasn't on TV, Cryptic can't use it. Granted, this isn't the all of it. there were/are some things that aren't covered in the TV series/etc that Cryptic can use, but it gets to a grey area. Likewise, this may or may not extend to other Star Trek games, but that is going more into legalness then I have the knowledge of.
One this for sure. JJverse is off limits.
EDIT: I love the reboot comics, just read the first for volume 4 collections and can't wait for Countdown 2 and volume 5.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Everything in the show is canon and the books are not ( in am looking at you mister David mack). Thank heavens for that. Again who in their right mind wants to see that terrible knock off of the enterprise and the vengeance? Both movies are trash and the only reason I'm seeing the new one ( and that's a big maybe) is to have a face palming, eye rolling experience as Spock makes out with Uhura yet again.
Go see Iron Man 3 instead.
I heartily disagree. I found the first reboot movie a very good watch - it's Star Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Ultimately, complaining about it is like complaining about any other alternate timeline or time-travel storyline in Star Trek. And to be fair, there is nothing to stop CBS making new films that follow the Prime Universe and the events after or indeed leading up to the Hobus event.
But this isn't about "the films are good/bad, discuss." This is about why we can't have JJ Verse stuff in STO.
As for who wants the Vengeance in game;
That's just one example. Check the other subforums, you'll see a couple more replies or entire threads like that..
In the end, people will complain and beg cryptic to bring it in and after enough flinging money at Paramount it might just happen as a c-store thing. I just hope that it doesn't happen. They are just ugly, plain and simple.
Spoilers:
Caitian cosmetic options, Children of Khan, and Section 31 plotlines.
I dont understand that..for one not so small reason.
The supernova/black hole that created the JJ-Verse in the first place is a big plot device of Star Trek Online >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
And it took four companies collaborating and hashing out a deal to make that happen.
Basically, Paramount and CBS worked together on the Spock Prime stuff and who could use what.
CBS then called up Cryptic and told them they had to nuke Romulus in the game's backstory, when the devs were midway through making Romulus.
Then CBS and Paramount worked together with IDW to put out the Countdown comic. And Cryptic supplied uniform designs for that.
But in a logistical sense, I think that's why the Countdown comic was created: to set the ground rules for what could be referenced.
The CBS license includes the Countdown comic, basically. Which dictates how CBS spinoffs can easily reference the super-nova.
It's like when Trials and Tribble-ations allowed Decipher to create Kirk and Enterprise playing cards. They didn't have a TOS license. They had a DS9+TNG+Voyager license. But Decipher could use Kirk as a DS9 character as long as they treated him like a character who only existed in references made on DS9, TNG, and Voyager.
They could acknowledge that he was a guy Sisko saved and that Scotty half-expected to see in Relics if they wanted to. But they couldn't reference the Corbomite Maneuver. They had to pretend the only appearances where Kirk existed were the ones in their license, ignoring TOS and TMP through Undiscovered Country.
That's kinda how Red Matter and Nero and such work. Cryptic basically has an approved list of things that they can mention that CBS and Paramount agreed to share ownership of. But only things from that list, basically.
They might have a case for a non-Borgified Narada and Spock's Jellyfish since those are presumably prime timeline ship classes. And I could see Paramount and CBS reaching an agreement (with some money trading hands) on that since that stuff comes from the Prime Universe.
I doubt they'd allow Nero's ship, post-mod. Or anything seen after Nero arrived in the past. And the Kelvin MIGHT be negotiable but it would probably be non-cost effective to bother negotiating. Because there you're getting into things that were supposed to be unique to ST 2009.
Nobody had a clue that George Lucas was going to sell off the entire Star Wars franchise (and indeed his entire business) to Disney.
So stating that something will 'never' happen or is 'impossible' is a bit daft.
Okay, allow me to rephrase; As long as CBS holds the leash on STO and Paramount holds the leash on the JJ Verse Star Trek, and said Star Trek continues to make money, we will never see that stuff in a CBS license-owned game.
The new Star Trek 2013 game has both a Paramount and a CBS logo at the beginning.
That's quite a statement, especially considering that Lucas was still making money hand over fist from the Star Wars franchise, and he still decided to sell up.
Given the economics of the world at the moment there's always the possibility Paramount/CBS merging (or CBS selling off its remaining rights to trek)
Like I said there are always possibility's, you use very strong words such as "Absolutely, categorically, empirically" whilst the fact of the matter is that it is 'unlikely' but not impossible. (These are the kind of words used in the scientific method, but you cannot say 'empirically' without some evidence to back it up, your whole original post was mere opinion/theory, not 'empirical' evidence.)
There is evidence of all these parties working together in some cases (as referenced to Cryptic/CBS being allowed to mention/use plot points from the paramount film.
Remember, a single track mind only has one place to go
Edit: rabblerabblerabble
technically the first countdown comic would require licenses from BOTH because it's a mishmash of TNG and JJ-Trek.
That said, i read the comics, i played the videogame, i watched the movie... and i LIKED it! ...A LOT.
And NO i do NOT want those ships in STO.
Just as i did not want the Wells Class in STO players hands, does not fit the timeframe / universe.
If you would do that you can just wash it down some more and add Babylon 5 and Stargate Ships... maybe add a Firefly LockBox? Who doesnt want some Star Wars vs. Trek Faction PvP?
Why build boring Fed Starbases when we can build DEATH STARS instead?
That's what makes it so Awesome!
I like to see new ship designs in STO.
The old Next Gen ships are boring.
A fair counter-point. I am well aware that most of what I was saying with reference to whether we'd get it or not was ultimately supposition; It could happen. But my money is it won't.
Remember - the as-yet-non-existant T5 Constitution-class. A model owned by CBS which is taking an enormous amount of effort for it to be allowed into the game - if it ever is. Given that it's this hard to get an iconic CBS-owned ship into the game, it doesn't do much for the chances of getting a non-CBS-owned ship in.
It's shared. The comic was co-licensed and the story content is co-owned. And I've followed this stuff in comics before, particularly with stuff like Dark Horse/DC's Superman vs. Aliens, Superman/Madman, and Marvel vs. DC. In all of those cases, the crossover material was co-owned and anything new from it could be used by either party except where restricted by contract or using something the other party owned going in.
So Superman/Aliens was referenced in Superman comics at the time but they couldn't show Aliens as 20th Century Fox owned a trademark on those. Superman/Madman was co-owned, which is why Madman inherited some of Superman's powers afterwards but didn't mention Superman by name, just an encounter with a costumed hero from another universe. In the case of Marvel vs. DC, you had the new character, Access, who was co-owned. And in that case, as I understand it, either company could use access without the other's permission and neither side could require their portrayal to be consistent... But similar to how song covers work, if they featured the character in marketing, they'd be obligated to share profits. So DC and Marvel could each launch contradictory Access books right now (assuming no contracts forbid it) and wouldn't need to consult the other but they'd be obligated to share profits.
But as I understand it, Orci, Kurtzman, and Abrams have contracts which not only give them creative control of Paramount but veto rights for anything CBS does. In theory, they COULD come in and say, "No. There were no Romulan survivors. Make Cryptic pull the Romulan faction." But in practice, Orci and Kurtzman are fans and are only concerned if something interferes with the ability of their films to be produced and make money and Abrams is generally more of a disinterested tie breaker vote for Orci and Kurtzman unless something damages his ability to make a movie.
So far, the one rule has been that Orci and Kurtzman have stated that they'll probably veto any CBS effort at a live action TV show. CBS has (and can) entertain pitches but they have to get Orci and Kurtzman to approve. Even though CBS DOES own the Prime Universe, they also have contracts with Paramount and Orci/Kurtzman that allow Paramount to tell them what they can and can't do with the half of Trek that CBS owns.
As I understand it, Bob Orci couldn't order Cryptic to include a Cardassian faction or a T5 Connie.
But if Cryptic planned to and CBS approved, Bob Orci could come in and tell them that they COULDN'T because the merchandising for a third movie was going to use those things. He can't tell CBS what TO do but he can tell CBS what NOT to do.
So, with all that said, how is Cryptic supposed to do anything with Star Trek? Who do they have to "ask" approval from to be able to do anything?
I mean, this is so convaluted (think I spelled that right) that I just can't make heads or tails of it. So, for LoR, all it would take is Orci/Kurtzman to call up Cryptic to have all of that hardwork wiped out, because they think that they might plan on using Romulans in some sort of marketing thing? Did Cryptic have to clear making LoR with half of Hollywood before they could make it?
This is just... stupid as hell. I'm sorry but wow. What's even more ridiculous, is that the fans are the ones that suffer when one of the parties gets a stick up their butt about some detail that will nix an entire project or body of work because they don't like how an ear looks, or some stupid thing. That is what I am getting from this whole discussion.
If it indeed works that way CBS may as well not own anything beyond royalties and syndication until whatever contract they have expires.
And if it is indeed that way it really would show how far trek has fallen in the eyes of CBS, although its really no one else's fault but their own. Voyager and Enterprise have fans to be sure, but they really took a hit numberswise. Would it be appropriate to call Voyager and Enterprise the "Clone Saga" and "One more day" of Trek?7:D
So STO is more like the comic books than the TV show its AvP all over again >_>
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Once upon a time CBS and Paramount were virtually same company. Many years ago Viacom split them into two separate companies before the JJ-verse movie. In doing so CBS acquired virtually all of the Star Trek rights except for motion picture and DVD distribution rights. CBS owns everything (movies and series) up to and including Nemesis movie and ST:Enterprise TV series. Cryptic can use any from any old prime universe movie or TV series. The animated series apparently is a mess in regards to rights. So they avoid any from TAS that clearly isn't totally owned (hence Sabre-Caitians for the KDF).
As I understand it:
CBS did straighten out most of TAS rights aside from the Kzinti stuff awhile back before the DVD release. However, they didn't license TAS to Cryptic (just like they didn't license the books to Cryptic) but they can approve elements of TAS or the Pocket Books novels to Cryptic on a case-by-case basis.
And CBS owns most of Star Trek. As-in, they get the profits from most of the non-movie stuff and can authorize people to do things with it. But they do have contracts in place letting Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman veto story-based stuff if it potentially impacts Paramount's movies' place in the market, as long as their three picture contract is in place. So CBS can ask for pitches for TV shows but Paramount can shut down TV shows.
Orci and Kurtzman are fans of classic Trek. I believe Orci has said he will use his veto to shutdown anything live action until his three picture deal with Paramount wraps up, largely because he believes that lack of a TV show helps drive up interest in the movies. However, he has said he would like a cartoon set in the Prime universe. But he can't just make one happen because CBS has to want to do one.
Part and parcel of all this is why Romulus has to be gone in STO. Theoretically, I'm guessing, Orci, Kurtzman, and Abrams could basically say no to a CBS project that undermines or competes with the movies, at least until their three movie contract is up. As a rule, I think Abrams doesn't get that involved and Orci and Kurtzman are such TOS/TNG/DS9/Voyager fans that they save their vetos for things that they think would damage the sales of JJverse products.
So they're very unlikely to veto much in STO. But they might veto a Prime Universe co-op shooter game because it might conflict with the JJverse co-op shooter game's ability to sell.
CBS owns classic Trek. They just have an agreement with Paramount that lets Paramount tell them what NOT to do if it might negatively impact sales of Paramount Trek products. And it's something CBS agreed to.
Meanwhile, the movie folks are constantly using stuff from classic Trek that CBS has to approve. The new film, as I understand it, has major nods to TAS, the movies, and DS9. The first film made nods to TNG, TMP, and Enterprise. These go through CBS and, I think, require CBS to sign off on Paramount's use of elements that CBS owns.
CBS and Paramount aren't enemies. From what I gather, they're enthusiastic supporters of one another's version of Trek. But they have little checks and balances in place.
Orci and Kurtzman might want to use General Chang and Harry Mudd in the next movie but they'd need CBS' approval. CBS might want to do a post-TNG live action sequel but they can't do it without Orci/Kurtzman/Abrams allowing it.
Basically, where anything from classic Trek is concerned: CBS has the power to say yes or withhold a yes. Paramount has the power to say no or remain silent. They work together. They're on good terms. They're supporters of one another, not so much competitors. And the agreements in place are to avoid becoming competitors.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
Whatever J.J. Abrams decides to do with HIS universe has zero bearing on the Prime Universe and vice versa. The only time either side would have a problem is if Cryptic/CBS tried to somehow render the Alternate Universe "not real", like the tacky "It was all a dream someone had in a shower" stunt they pulled in the 80's TV show Dallas.
As for things like Red Matter Capacitors, Shrapnel Torpedoes and the Borg enhanced Narada'esque Tal Shiar ships showing up in STO, try to remember that all those things showed up in the Prime Universe BEFORE Spock inadvertently skipped off into the Alternate Universe with Captain Crazy Pants in hot pursuit, therefore having items based on those themes appearing in STO would fall under the IP owned by CBS.
Sig by my better half.
Explain the Red Matter converter then