I understand why you say that but repeating it doesnt make it less incorrect. Captain traits define the class, the ship is a tool. Any class can fly a carrier and get the same benefits from pets and Target Subsystem. Engineer sucks in all ships, and its because the inherent abilities are very very limited in practical utility.
Just for starters, on the captain ability, I would like to see NI rolled into EPS, and the addition of a team-wide hull-polarity thingie that complements sci Scattering Field.
Ships should be balanced around mass. Small fast knife up to big slow club, on a predictable scale of turn/power/hull/etc. Some ship-class tweaks are fine but make it fair--if escorts get +3 because of maneuvering thrusters then cruisers should get an additional significant boost to ~hull.
Also the BOFF abilities are kind of lame. Some engi BOFF abilities I would like to see:
Beam Array Efficiency: lowers energy consumption cost of beam array by 30%. Imagine if you were able to run 8 beams at power limit all the time.
Warp Plasma Warhead: add warp plasma to any torpedo, for small reduction in maneuverability and plasma fire damage
You could also turn the tactical consoles into engi BOFF abilities:
Hardened Warhead: (skill-based substitute for Warhead Yield Chamber tactical console) Polarizes the casing on your torpedoes, allowing them to penetrate deeper before explosion, raises torpedo kinetic damage by NN%
Rail Gun: (skill-based substitute for Prefire Chamber) Modification to the particle accelerator algorithm, raises cannon damage by NN%
Increasing the Power Level cap will benefit Engi's more due to the fact that they are "power wizards".
Engineers, as described by the Legacy of Romulus character creation screen, are Tanks.
I'm fairly confident stating that DDIS did not mean "overcapping" as there is literally no benefit to overcapping subsystems like Shield or Engine since that has no effect at all.
Engineers, as described by the Legacy of Romulus character creation screen, are Tanks.
I'm fairly confident stating that DDIS did not mean "overcapping" as there is literally no benefit to overcapping subsystems like Shield or Engine since that has no effect at all.
the effect cap is 125 on everything, more then 125 shield power wont get you more then 35% defense. overcaping weapons energy is different, because if you overcap that you fire shots from the over 125 pool energy pool, and everyone of those shots will fire at the 125 effect cap. and every shot fired from that pool will mean that all the shots that dont fire from that over 125 pool will fire at a higher energy level then they would have otherwise. its extreamly winwin.
All these changes sound like they would completely relegate the sci class. If the nuke is mitigated by a castable eng ability for 15 secs, why would we bother running sci's in premades?
Major power increase to 150? BO double tap city every 30 secs. The difference for a tactical ship from 100 to 125 is massive. Imagine what it would do from 125 to 150?
All these changes will just super buff an eng and possibly dare i say it, also start putting tacs out of the game.
5 man eng escort team with that many castable effects cycled just sounds like an "I win" setup with 5 burst damage output points.
2 things would make the eng viable again and not OP. Yes just 2 things:
1. Make Miracle worker castable with the same cooldown as an APA, add a bit of resist to it but reduce the heal by about a third.
2. Give all engineers an inate % resistace to power drain which is useful but not OP
The trick is to make the eng useful without destroying / reducing the other two captain role effectivity.
i'll admit what i propose is overpowered, but negate sci? its supposed to be a bit too powerful, and can then get played with from there. maybe 150 power is too much, 140 might be better.
SNB, you can use that every 2 minutes, MW thats every 4 right? the immunity for 15 seconds isn't retroactive, and its not a cure for it like ST is, it could prevent hiting someone with 3 SNBs in a row though after the first hits. you cant really predict when an SNB will hit someone, and 15 second uptime with a 4 minute cooldown, even with 5 eng thats not any sort of effective imunity. an escort that has all its tac buffs ready and will be ready to unleash a fully buffed alpha could have an eng hit him with MW right befor he fires off every buff to protect them long enough to use them. its kinda like how AtD is a counter to PSW, but unless its on when someone happens to use PSW, its not helping you much.
A well played Eng, for all of the complains, is already ridiculously hard to kill.
Giving them an extra magnifier to their heals (Aux at 150) or debuffs (Aux 150) this would actually make them better at all Sci powers than Sci captains, in a way more dramatic than Tac using TBR or FBP ever has.
Giving them a 150 cap to Shields and Weapons also has a similar effect due to how power increases these.
We can't "fix" Eng by making them extremely amazing at everything.
extreamly amazing? more like above average. how much more damage are you going to deal when you get weapons power to 150? how easy will it be to run power that high in any sub system? whats the opportunity cost for doing that? is that buffed level of damage even close to how much damage a tac useing APA will be doing? 150 effect cap is not going to out damage APA. its still not going to spike near as well as a tac. current pressure LITERALLY does nothing, is a buff that will let it deal damage at the 150 cap really to powerful? i have a feeling its not.
an eng in an escort, again still not out spiking a tac, just using APA. using BO will still suck 50 power, and double tapping will drain you down to 50, instead of 25 like it would with everyone else. with nadion sure you can double tap without near the power drain, but you still have no tac buffs, you still arent fireing BOs as strong as a tac could. its the hardest, fastest spike that has the most effect, this boosted eng damage could still just as easly be dust in the wind in most situations.
the 150 effect cap for aux im more worried steeping on a sci's feet, then i am an eng stepping on a tac's. stronger TBR push, stronger GW hold, stronger shield strip, longer sensor debuff, and stronger aux heals, but not stronger FBP or TBR damage then a tac useing those skills. poor sci, they are the worst at using sci skills now lol. but they got SNB, scater field, scan, and sci fleet. sci's doing their job are still are still as powerful as ever, and just as needed with thier debuff and kill creation ability. its those captain skills more then the station powers that generate the kills.
sci captains, they really should be renamed operations captains. thats what they really are. then people wouldn't have the nagging hangup about sci captains not being the best will sci skills. they are both named sci, they should be best together right?, naw, they are ops captains useing sci skills, that dont necessarily deserve enhanced synergy with their station power name sake.
this being a field skills just sort of make sense. an escort hugging an eng could provide BO double tap support to allied escorts, theres a reason right there to have an eng around.
This one was Jorf's idea I believe, I like this one.
i think i might have actually said this first during a spirited OPVP eng discussion, that inspired this list of changes i made. if he had said it before, i wasn't around to hear it, and came up with it as well.
This one could work if it was given MW's cooldown and MW given RSFs cooldown, otherwise having basically Sci fleet with RSF's uptime would be too strong IMO.
given everything else, ya a whole team application is a bit much. half strength and cast able on others is enough.
At 50 power your energy weapons do listed damage, at 100 power you get double damage. (Formula: Base Damage * (Power/50) ).
This means at 125 a ship does 2.5x damage, and at 150 it would do 3x as much damage, or a full 20% more damage (vs. 125) all of the time.
I think you are underestimating what that much extra damage + higher boost from EPTW (your EPS change) + Nadion would actually achieve.
Why would I make a "pressure damage" BA build at that point, when I can run around with 3 DHCs & DBB popping off double tap BOs with nearly half of APA's damage boost on all of the time, on the single tankiest career with the best all around methods for completely negating drain?
That would the very first thing I build, with the changes you suggest.
A self mitigating Escort or hybrid destroyer with high spike potential (150 weapons power, APO 3, EPTW), massive "pressure" through 150 weapon power fueled DHCs, the ability to heal myself at 150 aux or resist at 150 shield power and a suite of Team supporting abilities.
my brain is straining to visualize the final extra damage it would provide, but i still think it falls short of a tac just useing APA. if it can eclips that then 150 needs dialing back a bit. frankly i think the tac should be best at spike, but not necessarily at constent long term dps. given the value of spike over any other sort of damage, as in its the only thing thats capable of actually killing, even highly buffed pressure wont be as valuable, or any sort of replacement for tac captain spike.
how easy will it be to run power that high in any sub system?
Weapons is easy. You can already run about 130 on any Escort without much fuss.
With EPTW 1 alone on cycle, you could run 150 with a few build adjustments.
Plas leech would almost do this on it's own without EPTW 1.
Then we can add in EPS, RMC, Weapon Batts, Quartermaster DOFF, new Battery component from Warp Cores and new ENG power boost to any EPTx power (i.e. EPTW 1 for ENG = 30 power, not 20) and you are could easily crank well over 150.
whats the opportunity cost for doing that?
Depends on the ship. For most Escorts/Hybrid Escorts or Battle Cruisers the cost opportunity is basically nil.
For a Eng/Sci ship I'd say it might require just a touch more cost, but not very much.
Since there is no way to seaparate what Aux boosts the Eng would then also be better at many Sci powers than Sci captains and harder to kill to boot.
is that buffed level of damage even close to how much damage a tac useing APA will be doing?
At the height of APA, no. On the other hand it's would be a constant high bonus, probably like having perma Omega that you could then combine with EPTW new perma damage boost, APO, etc.
150 effect cap is not going to out damage APA. its still not going to spike near as well as a tac. current pressure LITERALLY does nothing, is a buff that will let it deal damage at the 150 cap really to powerful? i have a feeling its not.
You don't need Tac level spike if you can just bring 2 or 3 engineers with permanent higher damage firing off constant spikes who are also ridiculously hard to kill.
There is no way to separate this ability from Beam arrays, so suddenly ENG is doing 20% more damage with DHCs all of the time. This could possibly shift ENG/Escort to the defacto best choice in PvE as well.
So if you want to make this 150 weapon power only calculate for BAs, sure. Since it would affect every energy weapon type (namely, DBBs and DHCs), then it's just too powerful.
an eng in an escort, again still not out spiking a tac, just using APA. using BO will still suck 50 power, and double tapping will drain you down to 50, instead of 25 like it would with everyone else. with nadion sure you can double tap without near the power drain, but you still have no tac buffs, you still arent fireing BOs as strong as a tac could. its the hardest, fastest spike that has the most effect, this boosted eng damage could still just as easly be dust in the wind in most situations.
You don't need to "outspike" the Tac when you have more consistent spike in a more group friendly package. It's the entire package of the engineer as damage mitigator that makes this much extra, raw, damage too much.
my brain is straining to visualize the final extra damage it would provide, but i still think it falls short of a tac just useing APA. if it can eclips that then 150 needs dialing back a bit. frankly i think the tac should be best at spike, but not necessarily at constent long term dps. given the value of spike over any other sort of damage, as in its the only thing thats capable of actually killing, even highly buffed pressure wont be as valuable, or any sort of replacement for tac captain spike.
The best way to visualize it would be to go to space, set your weapons to 125 and record damage on DHCs and an APO buff BO.
Then set it to 100 and do the same.
I'd do it myself now, but I'm at work.
I think Tac should be the top dog for all damage, as this is the only thing Tac captains bring to the Table in the current game.
I think Tac should be the top dog for all damage, as this is the only thing Tac captains bring to the Table in the current game.
Er, no (assuming the wiki is correct on this still). Tac captains in space can:
Increase damage (base, crits)
Increase maneuverability
Decrease timer cooldown on tac abilities (buff self)
And debuff the enemy
Strangely enough sci can:
Debuff the enemy
Buff team and self
And increase damage (photonic fleet)
Engineering can:
Buff self
All of this is in space of course. I am sensing a definate lack of things that Eng captains can do compared to the other classes. Tacs are actually the most versitile with their abilities in that they can do many things, all at once. Sci are second on the list. Eng is of course on the bottom, which is the problem.
Personally, I say that Eng captains should have a second level of power dedicated to directly increasing damage, not to the level of the tac, but more than photonic fleet can give a sci. And a lower level power dedicated to debuffing the enemy or buffing the team. I'd vote for buffing the team since that would leave both debuffing and buffing at the hands of science captains while tac and eng only get one half of the pie.
So however it needs to be done, eng captains need more direct damage done, and need to be able to team heal more. Maybe replace Nadion inversion with something more attack pattern alpha-ish (Warp power to weapons? Maybe robs all power from engines to direct to weapons?) and then make MW either castable or a field effect like with scattering field.
Er, no (assuming the wiki is correct on this still). Tac captains in space can:
Increase damage (base, crits)
Increase maneuverability
Decrease timer cooldown on tac abilities (buff self)
And debuff the enemy
Please don't confuse what you read on the wiki for what actually takes place.
The maneuverability increase is a turn rate buff, it's not huge and the goal is...dealing damage.
Decrease timer cooldown = increase rate of use of damage powers. I.e. deal damage. It also happens to be functionally useless on the vast majority of Escort builds that already have CD DOFFs or duplicate copies of every power.
Debuff the enemy = reduce resistance = create more damage. It is also cleared by Tac team, one of the most ubiquitous powers in the entire game, pvp or pve.
i.e. the total package of the Tactical captain is dealing damage.
and APA for 30 seconds gives 49% more damage, lots more crit and turn rate every 2 minutes it can run APO and EPtW just like an eng too.
Answers in red.
You don't need Tac level spike if you can just bring 2 or 3 engineers with permanent higher damage firing off constant spikes who are also ridiculously hard to kill.
There is no way to separate this ability from Beam arrays, so suddenly ENG is doing 20% more damage with DHCs all of the time. This could possibly shift ENG/Escort to the defacto best choice in PvE as well.
So if you want to make this 150 weapon power only calculate for BAs, sure. Since it would affect every energy weapon type (namely, DBBs and DHCs), then it's just too powerful.
your gunna have to go pretty far beyond 150 to get the same kind of overcaping you need with beam arrays now at 125. other wise your pressure damage from having your power max at only about 160 is still going to drain you to 100 damage or below during fireing cycles, making the increase in damage much more mild then it might look on paper. this is of course is not an issue with DHCs though, and thier energy draining, and a legitimate concern. so often though spiky alphas with much higher damage then this 150 weapons power attack will do nothing to a target, no mater if that attack lasts 10 seconds or indefinitely. ya, with this change a 4 DHC eng escort would have the highest DPS, and thus be best at sieging targets in STFs. oh well.
You don't need to "outspike" the Tac when you have more consistent spike in a more group friendly package. It's the entire package of the engineer as damage mitigator that makes this much extra, raw, damage too much.
in all the pugmade vs pugmade matches ive been in, if the tacs dealt less spike but more pressure, the matches still would not be over. a tac can still hit much harder then this new eng could. a 5 fleet excecior FAW team could abuse the TRIBBLE out of this new 150 weapons power thing, but thats just more reason to remove that skill from the game. an eng built to run 150+ weapons power at all time is also not an going to be nearly as hard to kill. first of all, i already cut the heals from MW and RSF in half, and second, all your energy buffing eforts are going to mainly be into weapons power. the near unkillable eng ships that are in the game now have their weapons power set to 25. taking things like EPtW3, DEM3, and running 2 AtB builds so you can fully use your damage potential will make these eng no more durable then any tac cruiser is now. it does not get everything at once, its not as good a healer as ever, and a massively better damage dealer at the same time. with the shield res cap reachable by escorts, being able to buff shield power to 150 i dont think pushes the envelope any farther then it already is. an eng heal boat with 150 aux powered sci heals will be harder to kill and suport even harder then ever. the thought of renim healing 25% harder is most scary of all!
The best way to visualize it would be to go to space, set your weapons to 125 and record damage on DHCs and an APO buff BO.
Then set it to 100 and do the same.
I'd do it myself now, but I'm at work.
I think Tac should be the top dog for all damage, as this is the only thing Tac captains bring to the Table in the current game.
ya, poor tac. they can only do the only thing that maters! when even the strongest spike isnt always enough, its hard to rate this enhanced eng pressure. non spike has 0 value, on escorts this is still always going to be inferior spike. not high enough to break even with the cross healing. if it cant do that, then its still of zero value really. but outside of mid to high end team play, it would be a thing again.
Why not just remove the careeers...I said it before, I said it now. It's hard to balance, someone is always unhappy. Why not change it like the trait system ? You would just pick your captain ability every XX level. Full customization, everyone same options. Maybe do some of take this or that, cant have both etc. choices.
Then we can moan and argue that XX ability sucks, instead this my career sucks.
There could also be some faction specific skills etc.
I know you clarified this a little bit later, but I also wanted to point out that I've championed the following in a few threads...with this thought process.
Consider the characters in the various Star Trek series, eh? Unfortunately, this has a high Starfleet slant to it - but that's what we mainly saw.
There are three major Starfleet Divisions: Command, Operations, and Science. Tactical and Engineering are part of Operations. Command is not only "Command" - but it also includes Conn, Helm, etc, etc, etc.
So imagine if there were four MOS that players could choose from...
Command
Ops-Tac
Ops-Eng
Science
...and if they could choose to dual spec or single spec.
In choosing to dual spec, they would choose a Primary and a Secondary MOS. For the five abilities, they would get the Fleet ability of their Primary. They would have to pick at least one ability from each...but the remaining two could be from either.
The abilities would have to be better balanced as they would be lining up with each in a hierarchical view. They couldn't take two uber abilities, so to speak, it would work kind of like the Reputation system choices. MOS-A vs. MOS-B...with that T5 being the Fleet of the Primary.
It was kind of decided that it would be way complicated though - confusing to new players - and require work that would take forever to do.
Captain traits define the class, the ship is a tool. Any class can fly a carrier and get the same benefits from pets and Target Subsystem. Engineer sucks in all ships, and its because the inherent abilities are very very limited in practical utility.
The five Captain Abilities flavor the Class. Yes, if you put a Tac, Eng, or Sci in the same Ship - it changes the Ship. Then again, so does changing any Gear, changing the BOFFs, and changing the DOFFs.
I don't like it, but Geko having said it over and over now - it's pretty easy to see where the Career is itemization for the Ship. He thinks of them as Classes. KDF BoPs? They're Assassin Class. You put a Tac, Eng, or Sci in there - you've got a different kind of Assassin.
In various threads discussing Geko's thoughts on what is the Class and what is the Itemization for the Class (never had him reply in there, just a bunch of us ranting and raving about it) - it's been pointed out how difficult that is to accept for many. They're character-centric. The Ship is Gear...not the Character is Gear. But the more you look at the way certain things work, the easier it is to see how perhaps the Lead Designer is correct...you know, completely ignoring that he is the Lead Designer...which many would like to do.
Consider most MMOs out there, eh? Look at how involved the character is, eh? Look at all the abilities they have, the distinct skills, the various restrictions, and all that. It's not there in STO.
Skill build in Space? Career doesn't matter.
Ship? Career doesn't matter.
BOFFs? Career doesn't matter.
DOFFs? Career doesn't matter.
Gear? Career doesn't matter.
Let's look at it from a Ship PoV instead, eh?
Skill build in Space? Restricted? No, but the other restrictions will create a guideline. So the Ship does matter.
Career? Restricted? No, but there will be issues that either result in restrictions or the need for assistance from gear. They're loosening this somewhat with the change to arcs, but consider the Sci trying to use SNB in a very slow turning vessel. Just not as effective, eh? So the Ship does matter.
BOFFs? The Ship definitely matters.
DOFFs? By way of the BOFFs, the Ship definitely matters.
Gear? The number of Tac/Eng/Sci Consoles are limited. Certain Ships can use DHCs. Fed/KDF Ships will be using Warp Cores while Romulan Ships will be using Singularity Cores. They're looking at adding the Secondary Deflector for Science Vessels. They're looking at options for Cruisers. So yeah, the Ship matters.
So we have the Career that flavors things but does not restrict anything and we have the Ship that does restrict things. Which sounds more like the Class?
It's like there are two different games taking place, eh? Consider just how different Ground and Space are in that regard. On the Ground, yep - the Career does create restrictions - Kits. The Skills are different on Ground. Yep, there's no doubt that on Ground the Career is the Class...
...but move to Space? The Career is pretty much a Kit for the Ship which is the Class. You pick your Kit which will flavor what kind of Fighter, Paladin, Assassin, Cleric, Sorceror, etc, etc, etc you decide to fly.
I'm character-centric. I don't like it. There was always something that bugged me about Space that I couldn't put my finger on. Geko said it. I laughed. Geko said it again. I looked. I sighed. At least I had an explanation for what was bugging me about Space that I couldn't put my finger on...
Yeah I've heard the same statement, like I said I know why you're saying it. And yeah it explains why a lot of things are the way they are. Still wrong at core though.
I'm sure they want us to roll new toons for every ship. Not happening. Our inaction forces them to be wrong, ergo they are wrong have always been wrong and forever will be wrong.
Yeah I've heard the same statement, like I said I know why you're saying it. And yeah it explains why a lot of things are the way they are. Still wrong at core though.
I'm sure they want us to roll new toons for every ship. Not happening. Our inaction forces them to be wrong, ergo they are wrong have always been wrong and forever will be wrong.
That's the thing, they don't want us to roll new toons. Geko said he was surprised that people didn't buy and fly more ships. It was another head scratching moment...how can he say X and then wonder Y? It's a Geko Consistency...known in the real world as an inconsistency.
I like my eng for using a carrier, I think its more suited to the ship then a sci. I can make a Fleet Voquv and even a Karfi zombie really good with an eng and it still gets targeted a lot because of how annoying it can be. I don't really need subnuc because I am completely shutting targets down with drains anyway. Engie in a carrier is great for being able to zombie and still kill and drain/sci spam stuff at the same time, makes it easy to take on groups of feds at the same time in kerrat. People still not targeting you enough and its Cap N hold or kerrat? start sitting on the spawn for awhile until they do, eng carrier is great for camping and you don't have to feel guilty about it because you are in a supposedly gimped unwanted class lol.
It doesn't seem like this class really works outside of carriers anymore though.
Before the skill tree revamp CC was way too strong. Remember gravity well? Pretty easy to use -- everyone click the same button at the same time on the same target that happens to be close to a few other of his team mates = win.
If we're going to nitpick, proper timing on a fast enough moving target could accomplish the same thing
After the scramble nerf it was generally better to have closer proximity for a stronger pull that's more difficult to escape. Depends on a few factors.
So my main comment that CC was not, for a very long time, used by the pvp community until in a pvp tournament it was used to great effect is not answered. The CC was there in it current state for a very long time and considered worthless, until it was actually used by a team. Then it went from being perceived as worthless to being OP. At this point the only thing that had altered was player perception, not the game skill. My point was this 'could still be the case' I say could because I acknowledge I am not familiar with all the changes and the skills as they currently are.
Instead you focus on something that was correct at the time I gamed when it was used, if the game altered, well it altered, but skills were never dump and click = win, which was your comment and I disagree.
If two teams are using the same strategy, the better team will win every time.
Hell, if one team is using some horrendous broken ability and the other team is just comprised of tremendously superior players the better team will still likely win. Doesn't change people from arguing stuff like "Siphon Drones / Temporal Inversion / Graviton Pulse Generators aren't OP because we used them heavily and Pandas still beat us!" We also flew around in Tier 3 ships before the community asked us to stop, doesn't mean that tier 3 ships aren't enormously weaker than tier 5!.
So you agree then that I am correct and CC skills, and if you like other skills in general are not click = win, there was and is more to it. Why not just say so?
Sure, the team that coordinates better will win. Doesn't change the fact that popping 3-4 CPBs or GWs at the same time as an escort alphas up isn't exactly difficult.
No one claimed the game was difficult, it is an mmo, hardly the forerunner of difficult games, only that your comment click = win was not correct, and anyone seeking to rely on that comment will not find themselves going from non factor to renowned player
Finally, so after a couple of paragraphs of pointless posturing you accept that coordination, better timing is the key and not simply click=win, you could have saved your keyboard a lot of bashing and just accepted your initial post was poorly worded and you were in error to claim click = win as a single stand alone comment.
I don't think anyone ever thought Tachyon Beam was overpowered, but shield stripping in general sure. It wasn't picked up because it was a powerful skill -- CPB being better in every possible way -- but because it complemented CPB and in a build that was already heavily spec'd for shield stripping it became a no-brainer.
Again you miss the point and seek to answer in isolation. My point followed your assertion that
Nowadays a lot of control powers are unfortunately worthless, but what remains is arguably better balanced than what we had before and needs to be used with a higher degree of precision.
I pointed out Tachyon beam was always on the list of pointless skills, again until it was used to good effect as a supporting skill to CPB, with a couple of ships with TB you could apply it after CPB to prevent shield regeneration or as preparation from 10k out. So actually you accept that those 'worthless' skills might not be so worthless if used in conjunction with other powers or in a creative build. Just because something is the norm does not relegate everything to worthless. Though I will accept skills can be of less value if used in isolation or inappropriately.
Ah see you got there, now why not just say that at the start, and save the meaningless defence of a comment by attempting to make Tachyon beam the issue, when that was merely an example of a skill that had little value until it was discovered to be excellent as a Science force multiplier
I also doubt that against similar teams 'more skill' is required, I highly doubt many of those skilled players who left if they came back would find themselves as non factors because they just lack the skill and were only good when the game was easy.
I think that is just a lot of pompous BS and you just want to blow your own trumpet a bit. You are considered a good player now, before you were not, well done, I am not seeking to belittle you, however that you are more skilled than they were, I am not sure you can imply that, given you failed to do well while they were here. The game has altered to a point it is impossible to directly compare, however I think they if they were still here they would be as competitive as they were before. They will have adapted too
VM is actually quite good. EPW too. You still need a couple copies of PSW on a team. TBR and SS are still decent despite the later being heavily nerfed. What's gone away is three to five guys all spamming the same skill for the win. Control is more surgical now.
When equal teams face each other, either with the same skills or different skills per player or per team then the team that most intelligently uses the skills to create opening or close opening will win, I disagree that just because the skills get buffed, nerfed, or skill trees changed or those officers you get from packs are introduced, the team with the more 'surgical' use of the available powers win. it is not a lottery based on random spamming, just as picking the optimum time for the use of a single SNB is more devastating that 3 players spamming it one after another to try to get a kill. Surgical control is what has always separated good from great, well along with some innovation to stay ahead of the sheep.
I hate to sound arrogant, but we were dominant back then too. And we had the same initial knee jerk reaction to the changes to control as the rest of the community. Hell, nobody used GW as much as we did. Control could definitely be stronger. Ideally it would be somewhere in between where it used to be and where it is now, but what we have now isn't as bad as many people clinging to an old meta would like to believe.
I have no idea what you have now as far as the game itself goes, so will make no comment on the matter.
As for being dominant as I recall pandas were only just forming when I left and tbh I thought it was what was left of QEW, and no at that point you were far from dominant, though you probably pug stomped really well back then. I am talking about my time period after all.
The difference between green items and top of the line items constantly advances as power creep does. That being said, with the exception of certain lockbox ships, top level gear is far more easy to attain than it was back in the day.
I will accept I didn't make myself as clear as I should have here, the mistake is mine. I was referring to the early days were you had a skill tree and a ship with mods and shields and guns, nothing more really. You all had the maxed skill tree, the rest, well while purple was never a bad thing, it was not essential, greens and blues would not see you at much of a disadvantage.
Todays game seems to have a legacy (not sure the name in this game) grind to gain skill boosts and officers from backs that you send on missions that add significant advantages to powers, along with mods that only come from c store ships seems that there is a gap forming power wise between those that are long standing players and those who are new. I always liked STO as it did not require that long grind to catch up, hitting 50 (or whatever it is) was enough, now you have the grind to complete and the duty officers to collect to be competitive. Or so I am informed.
Pandas was never a KDF team. Our KDF fleet has been mostly abandoned ever since the rep grind came out. In any case, private matches allow for cross faction teams now.
You were an almost exclusive KDF player during my time, much of it in a fleet whose name I forget with a leader called ****ok or some such, if that has altered then it altered and i stand corrected on the issue.
There's far more spike than there was before, and far more healing and resistance. This makes the game more yo-yo, more twitch, and more skill based. In high level PvP, both the damage dealers and healers need to be incredibly on the ball. Kills require more coordination and better timing, healing has became more of a twitch skill. You can no longer really succeed as a healer who is a 'clicker' since it's not fast enough.
Instavape has always been possible in some form or another.
So spike as I claimed is no worse and is/was always relative to the conditions of the game, yes perhaps you can do more damage now, but if you can mitigate more the relative damage has not altered significantly, unless perhaps you are new and so not have all the things required as I mentioned earlier such as the right officers from packs or skills from the legacy leaving you to far behind the power curve.
That's a bit of a strawman argument. I never stated that reaction time is the only, or even the primary factor in PvP today. With the current levels of spike you do need fast reflexes as a healer, but anticipating spike and preemptively building defenses is just as important, ditto for controlling enemy damage dealers and maintaining initiative. Sometimes that stuff fails and you need to act fast, moreso than in the past thanks to the wider difference between heavily buffed and unbuffed (and even at times moderately buffed) targets.
you claimed spike was massive and healing was only helpful if you have the reactions of a super human to be viable in your post, in a subsequent post you add more information and make other claims, different entirely from your initial post. Simply accept that your post was again poor and you should not have make such a wildly inaccurate statement.
Anticipating, and pre-emptive defence preparation at the correct time, the decision making are all important, and should always be the key to winning in my opinion. However if there is only one or two healers out of all the players that have fast enough reactions and they are in your team, well no one is likely to survive your spike, while you can survive theirs making the game worthless.
Obviously, there's always going to be both. I'd argue that more extreme gameplay also means that teams need to be more on their feet, that they need to make more decisions, quicker, and more decisively.
So again, you agree with me when I said in my post that skill should be about your timing and choices (please read decisions) made during the fight and not come down to who has the fastest reactions. Why not just say so.
In the end you wrote a poor first post, which I disagreed with, rather than just accept that your post was not well written you went to a lot of trouble to make claims I made while opting to leave out the sections of my post that claimed them and to pull out small sections of my comments to focus on in an attempt to say duh oblivious. when you opt to use terms like 'no brainer' to discuss something that truly had no relevance to the subject of my post I think you know you are attempting to deflect the attention from the focus of the posts discussion.
So my main comment that CC was not, for a very long time, used by the pvp community until in a pvp tournament it was used to great effect is not answered. The CC was there in it current state for a very long time and considered worthless, until it was actually used by a team. Then it went from being perceived as worthless to being OP. At this point the only thing that had altered was player perception, not the game skill.
To a large extent that's true, but you are forgetting that things are not discovered in a static environment. For example, if BtSS stacking hadn't been rightfully nerfed in Season 2 (or was it 1.1?) there would have been no need to "discover" heavy CC builds, or any other type of strategy really, because BtSS stacking would still be more powerful. Given enough time in a static environment, players will figure out the best way to approach the game and never need to deviate.
Instead you focus on something that was correct at the time I gamed when it was used, if the game altered, well it altered, but skills were never dump and click = win, which was your comment and I disagree.
So you agree then that I am correct and CC skills, and if you like other skills in general are not click = win, there was and is more to it. Why not just say so?
No one claimed the game was difficult, it is an mmo, hardly the forerunner of difficult games, only that your comment click = win was not correct, and anyone seeking to rely on that comment will not find themselves going from non factor to renowned player
Finally, so after a couple of paragraphs of pointless posturing you accept that coordination, better timing is the key and not simply click=win, you could have saved your keyboard a lot of bashing and just accepted your initial post was poorly worded and you were in error to claim click = win as a single stand alone comment.
No, my point still stands that the previous iteration of CC had little nuance. Obviously "click-to-win" isn't meant to be taken 100% literally -- you don't click a button and have a screen come up stating "congratulations for your victroy!" Ditto with pay-to-win, or any other "to-win."
Your argument is that something cannot be click-to-win if the better team still prevails when both sides are using it instead of having the game turn into some kind of coin toss. It's an argument that is both absurd at face value and demonstrably wrong.
A good example of "click-to-win" (and incidentally "pay-to-win") in the game right now is temporal inversion field. If team A always beats team B by something like 15-8, 15-10 and then team B takes 3 copies of TIF and proceeds to wipe team A by 15-0, 15-1 simply by activating the same three powers at the same time, that's click-to-win. Just because team A comes back with three copies of TIF for themselves and proceeds to beat team B every single match again does not make TIF a nuanced ability. In fact, TIF requires basically no skill whatsoever to use. I'll admit that TIF is a more extreme example than the last iteration of CC, but it's the same principle on reduced scale.
I pointed out Tachyon beam was always on the list of pointless skills, again until it was used to good effect as a supporting skill to CPB, with a couple of ships with TB you could apply it after CPB to prevent shield regeneration or as preparation from 10k out. So actually you accept that those 'worthless' skills might not be so worthless if used in conjunction with other powers or in a creative build. Just because something is the norm does not relegate everything to worthless. Though I will accept skills can be of less value if used in isolation or inappropriately.
I was only correcting your point that people thought TB was OP. People only thought of CPB as being OP, not TB. The rest of what you wrote I agree with. For example, a lot of people now think that tac cruisers are pointless. We've figured out how to make some great damage dealing tactical cruisers, though the vast majority of the community hasn't caught on yet.
Ah see you got there, now why not just say that at the start, and save the meaningless defence of a comment by attempting to make Tachyon beam the issue, when that was merely an example of a skill that had little value until it was discovered to be excellent as a Science force multiplier
Sure, I'll admit I shouldn't have nit-picked. It was retaliatory for some similar nit-picking you had done in your post. Why don't we both try to focus on the main issues?
I also doubt that against similar teams 'more skill' is required, I highly doubt many of those skilled players who left if they came back would find themselves as non factors because they just lack the skill and were only good when the game was easy.
I think that is just a lot of pompous BS and you just want to blow your own trumpet a bit. You are considered a good player now, before you were not, well done, I am not seeking to belittle you, however that you are more skilled than they were, I am not sure you can imply that, given you failed to do well while they were here. The game has altered to a point it is impossible to directly compare, however I think they if they were still here they would be as competitive as they were before. They will have adapted too
I have no idea what you have now as far as the game itself goes, so will make no comment on the matter.
As for being dominant as I recall pandas were only just forming when I left and tbh I thought it was what was left of QEW, and no at that point you were far from dominant, though you probably pug stomped really well back then. I am talking about my time period after all.
Yes, things might be different now, but back then, you lost.
You were an almost exclusive KDF player during my time, much of it in a fleet whose name I forget with a leader called ****ok or some such, if that has altered then it altered and i stand corrected on the issue.
Ok, this might explain a good deal of your hostility and skepticism.
Pandas was formed as a federation fleet, mostly made up from ex-members of an (at best) middle rung Klingon fleet, which most definitely wasn't QEW. Lord Tide did join sometime after we formed, but that was before QEW left for TOR.
The philosophy behind Pandas was to take everything that happened in the mediocre Klingon fleet we came from and do the opposite. Avoiding instead of abusing broken things, minimizing strife and drama, seeking practice against better teams instead of running away from them, and looking for ways to improve wherever we could find them.
I do regret that back in the day I was quite vocal, at times boastful, on the forums, especially when it comes to defending that specific Klingon fleet. Hell, if our positions were reversed I'd probably be skeptical of you -- assuming of course that you were actually a top player back in the day, since I have no idea if you are what you say you are.
When equal teams face each other, either with the same skills or different skills per player or per team then the team that most intelligently uses the skills to create opening or close opening will win, I disagree that just because the skills get buffed, nerfed, or skill trees changed or those officers you get from packs are introduced, the team with the more 'surgical' use of the available powers win. it is not a lottery based on random spamming, just as picking the optimum time for the use of a single SNB is more devastating that 3 players spamming it one after another to try to get a kill. Surgical control is what has always separated good from great, well along with some innovation to stay ahead of the sheep.
The part in red seems contradictory to the rest of your post to me. Did you mistype something?
And three other players you would expect to find on any given TSI A-team. Arguably it could have been stronger with Rock replacing one of those three, and arguably our team could have been stronger with MT or Vad, but I wouldn't excuse a Panda loss if only a single element was out of place. I'm assuming you would normally think the same way if you weren't trying to win an argument
In any case, there was a time before the great GW2 TSI exodus matches went back and forth between TSI and SP and it was our two fleets that were driving the meta. I'd prefer not to say much more as I don't want to risk turning this into some kind of SP vs. TSI discussion.
All that being said, it's my hope that players like Rock and Era eventually come back. The ball is really in Cryptic's court to create a better PvP environment to make that possible.
So spike as I claimed is no worse and is/was always relative to the conditions of the game, yes perhaps you can do more damage now, but if you can mitigate more the relative damage has not altered significantly, unless perhaps you are new and so not have all the things required as I mentioned earlier such as the right officers from packs or skills from the legacy leaving you to far behind the power curve.
You don't seem to understand that the difference between a buffed and unbuffed target has widened significantly. Assuming both targets are buffed there is no difference, defense and offense have scaled in a more or less linear fashion... but buffs of course can be removed instantly with a subnuke.
you claimed spike was massive and healing was only helpful if you have the reactions of a super human to be viable in your post, in a subsequent post you add more information and make other claims, different entirely from your initial post. Simply accept that your post was again poor and you should not have make such a wildly inaccurate statement.
I'm getting tired of you taking my arguments and trying to warp them into more extreme, absurd versions.
For example "you can no longer really succeed as a healer who is a 'clicker' since it's not fast enough" now equals "healing is only helpful if you have the reactions of a super human." Are you doing this intentionally or subconsciously?
I'm stating that burst healing is more important nowadays, and you aren't quick enough without binds. That's it.
Anticipating, and pre-emptive defence preparation at the correct time, the decision making are all important, and should always be the key to winning in my opinion. However if there is only one or two healers out of all the players that have fast enough reactions and they are in your team, well no one is likely to survive your spike, while you can survive theirs making the game worthless.
Only one or two healers who are fast enough in the entire game? There you go again, exaggerating to the point of absurdity.
So again, you agree with me when I said in my post that skill should be about your timing and choices (please read decisions) made during the fight and not come down to who has the fastest reactions. Why not just say so.
But I do disagree with you. It's not about one or the other, it's about both. Your form of argument is pigeon holing you into these either/or extremes.
In the end you wrote a poor first post, which I disagreed with, rather than just accept that your post was not well written you went to a lot of trouble to make claims I made while opting to leave out the sections of my post that claimed them and to pull out small sections of my comments to focus on in an attempt to say duh oblivious.
Looking at the size of my original reply, I'm sure the vast majority of your post was directly quoted with very little left out.
I do regret that back in the day I was quite vocal, at times boastful, on the forums, especially when it comes to defending that specific Klingon fleet.
One thing that is confusing me is how many people are saying they want Miracle Worker and Rotate Shield Frequency to be castable on other players, when there is still an argument about how there is too much healing currently in the game..
People actually want the Engineer to be able to provide MORE healing?
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I think its clear that tehy are meaning for cruisers to be the most accessible newby class of ship.
It's quite possible. I can't really say for sure.
The fact that neither Engineers nor Cruisers come with built-in threat, or for that matter Threat is thematically linked to Tactical on both the ground and in space does lend a bit of credence to the idea.
your gunna have to go pretty far beyond 150 to get the same kind of overcaping you need with beam arrays now at 125. other wise your pressure damage from having your power max at only about 160 is still going to drain you to 100 damage or below during fireing cycles,
I think this is still too focused on Beams, and Beam Arrays and 8x Beam Array set up which was never really intended from what I can see (Bort has posted in the past on this).
The issue is that 150 weapon power will boost any and all energy weapons all of the time.
This is problematic, and not just in PvE.
I don't mean to cut up the rest of your post too much, sorry for any points that might get missed.
a tac can still hit much harder then this new eng could.
I think that's missing the point.
I also think you really under estimate what 150 weapons power with DHCs will do for Engineers.
You're saying it's less spike than Tac, but you're not dealing with the fact that you'd be able to pop a 150 Weapon power CRF 2 + BO 2 every 15s, or a 150 Weapon Power CRF 2 + BO 1 + BO 2 + APO 3 Double Tap Spike every 30s.
Achieving almost half the spike potential 3x as oftenof the Tac and being a support character at the same time would be a balance issue.
I think this is still too focused on Beams, and Beam Arrays and 8x Beam Array set up which was never really intended from what I can see (Bort has posted in the past on this).
The issue is that 150 weapon power will boost any and all energy weapons all of the time.
This is problematic, and not just in PvE.
I don't mean to cut up the rest of your post too much, sorry for any points that might get missed.
bort can say all energy is not intended all he wants, and i agree that no ship should be all energy. but until something is done to make torps as good as BO, like something as simple as removing the base 75% res to kinetic damage that shields come with, theres little other choice. pressure damage weapons like beam arrays will also never be compatible with hull smasher torps, because you can distribute shields faster then they can damage, and only 1 weak quantum has a fireing arc that is even workable with the optimum beam array fireing arc. something that can make knetic more desirable, more of a default choice, would mean your using less energy weapons and benefit from the 150 cap less
I also think you really under estimate what 150 weapons power with DHCs will do for Engineers.
You're saying it's less spike than Tac, but you're not dealing with the fact that you'd be able to pop a 150 Weapon power CRF 2 + BO 2 every 15s, or a 150 Weapon Power CRF 2 + BO 1 + BO 2 + APO 3 Double Tap Spike every 30s.
Achieving almost half the spike potential 3x as oftenof the Tac and being a support character at the same time would be a balance issue.
i dont think we are going to agree on weather this is debilitating or easily tankable. heals cycle about as fast, yours and from others. with how easy it is to shrug off a tacs best, i just dont see the enhanced always on damage an eng could do breaching the healing tipinig point. an eng escort would proboly be unbeatable in an escort dual though, unless it was a short one. this is something we would actually need to test i think.
that wasn't really what i was trying to claim originally, should have said damage instead of thing. it was more comparing the damage tacs do to other types of damage, rather then all the other aspects of team play. sure you can cause some mayhem with shield bypassing too, but other then that theres only really tac in escort spike that has any impact.
tacs would still have that get kills spike, but eng would have pressure at levels thats more likely to do something, especially when you try to spike with it the best you can with just station powers.
that wasn't really what i was trying to claim originally, should have said damage instead of thing. it was more comparing the damage tacs do to other types of damage, rather then all the other aspects of team play. sure you can cause some mayhem with shield bypassing too, but other then that theres only really tac in escort spike that has any impact.
tacs would still have that get kills spike, but eng would have pressure at levels thats more likely to do something, especially when you try to spike with it the best you can with just station powers.
A little off topic but in regards to the damage tacs do, I wouldn't say that spiking in a tac escort is the only thing that has any impact. It has impact, yes, but sustained damage is still important and does generate kills. Spike tacscorts have their place and are becoming increasingly popular with double tap BO's. But it hasn't made high sustained, burst damage tacscorts valueless.
A little off topic but in regards to the damage tacs do, I wouldn't say that spiking in a tac escort is the only thing that has any impact. It has impact, yes, but sustained damage is still important and does generate kills. Spike tacscorts have their place and are becoming increasingly popular with double tap BO's. But it hasn't made high sustained, burst damage tacscorts valueless.
before rep and elite shield proliferation, tac captain heavy pressure in like cruisers did pretty well. if you think it still does well, well thats your opinion. even if its slightly okish still, its effectiveness has at least been cut in half, again.
in fed cruisers and escorts, ive basically given up on them with pressure builds, all my builds are built to spike kill, instead of dealing steady heavy damage with all single cannons on the cruisers or 4 DHCs on escorts. in my experience that stuff is just to easy to out heal as you fire it. if someones paying atention even killer spike can be totaly blunted.
i just dont see an eng, with no tac captain skills, and just more weapons energy being obliterating the pressure effectivness barrier. i doubt an eng with 150 weapons energy will outdo what my tac used to be able to do in one of those 2 AtB single cannon fleet excelsior builds.
in fed cruisers and escorts, ive basically given up on them with pressure builds, all my builds are built to spike kill, instead of dealing steady heavy damage with all single cannons on the cruisers or 4 DHCs on escorts. in my experience that stuff is just to easy to out heal as you fire it. if someones paying atention even killer spike can be totaly blunted.
I was mainly referring to the 4 dhc escort. You are right, though, elite fleet shields and rep passives have changed escort builds and premade team layouts. But if i'm using an escort other than a spike build, it's not really about out dpsing the other teams heals. It's about creating openings in their heal rotations and, when your ready, having the Sci guys nuke off whatever is left. Lightning fast target switching is one of the things I always try to accomplish. whether if i'm pugging or in a premade. Setting up kill targets two or three switches down the line.
But, to be fair, I would agree that on it's own without team debuffing assistance a spike tacscort is more impactful.
Comments
Just for starters, on the captain ability, I would like to see NI rolled into EPS, and the addition of a team-wide hull-polarity thingie that complements sci Scattering Field.
Ships should be balanced around mass. Small fast knife up to big slow club, on a predictable scale of turn/power/hull/etc. Some ship-class tweaks are fine but make it fair--if escorts get +3 because of maneuvering thrusters then cruisers should get an additional significant boost to ~hull.
Also the BOFF abilities are kind of lame. Some engi BOFF abilities I would like to see:
Beam Array Efficiency: lowers energy consumption cost of beam array by 30%. Imagine if you were able to run 8 beams at power limit all the time.
Warp Plasma Warhead: add warp plasma to any torpedo, for small reduction in maneuverability and plasma fire damage
You could also turn the tactical consoles into engi BOFF abilities:
Hardened Warhead: (skill-based substitute for Warhead Yield Chamber tactical console) Polarizes the casing on your torpedoes, allowing them to penetrate deeper before explosion, raises torpedo kinetic damage by NN%
Rail Gun: (skill-based substitute for Prefire Chamber) Modification to the particle accelerator algorithm, raises cannon damage by NN%
Engineers, as described by the Legacy of Romulus character creation screen, are Tanks.
I'm fairly confident stating that DDIS did not mean "overcapping" as there is literally no benefit to overcapping subsystems like Shield or Engine since that has no effect at all.
the effect cap is 125 on everything, more then 125 shield power wont get you more then 35% defense. overcaping weapons energy is different, because if you overcap that you fire shots from the over 125 pool energy pool, and everyone of those shots will fire at the 125 effect cap. and every shot fired from that pool will mean that all the shots that dont fire from that over 125 pool will fire at a higher energy level then they would have otherwise. its extreamly winwin.
i'll admit what i propose is overpowered, but negate sci? its supposed to be a bit too powerful, and can then get played with from there. maybe 150 power is too much, 140 might be better.
SNB, you can use that every 2 minutes, MW thats every 4 right? the immunity for 15 seconds isn't retroactive, and its not a cure for it like ST is, it could prevent hiting someone with 3 SNBs in a row though after the first hits. you cant really predict when an SNB will hit someone, and 15 second uptime with a 4 minute cooldown, even with 5 eng thats not any sort of effective imunity. an escort that has all its tac buffs ready and will be ready to unleash a fully buffed alpha could have an eng hit him with MW right befor he fires off every buff to protect them long enough to use them. its kinda like how AtD is a counter to PSW, but unless its on when someone happens to use PSW, its not helping you much.
extreamly amazing? more like above average. how much more damage are you going to deal when you get weapons power to 150? how easy will it be to run power that high in any sub system? whats the opportunity cost for doing that? is that buffed level of damage even close to how much damage a tac useing APA will be doing? 150 effect cap is not going to out damage APA. its still not going to spike near as well as a tac. current pressure LITERALLY does nothing, is a buff that will let it deal damage at the 150 cap really to powerful? i have a feeling its not.
an eng in an escort, again still not out spiking a tac, just using APA. using BO will still suck 50 power, and double tapping will drain you down to 50, instead of 25 like it would with everyone else. with nadion sure you can double tap without near the power drain, but you still have no tac buffs, you still arent fireing BOs as strong as a tac could. its the hardest, fastest spike that has the most effect, this boosted eng damage could still just as easly be dust in the wind in most situations.
the 150 effect cap for aux im more worried steeping on a sci's feet, then i am an eng stepping on a tac's. stronger TBR push, stronger GW hold, stronger shield strip, longer sensor debuff, and stronger aux heals, but not stronger FBP or TBR damage then a tac useing those skills. poor sci, they are the worst at using sci skills now lol. but they got SNB, scater field, scan, and sci fleet. sci's doing their job are still are still as powerful as ever, and just as needed with thier debuff and kill creation ability. its those captain skills more then the station powers that generate the kills.
sci captains, they really should be renamed operations captains. thats what they really are. then people wouldn't have the nagging hangup about sci captains not being the best will sci skills. they are both named sci, they should be best together right?, naw, they are ops captains useing sci skills, that dont necessarily deserve enhanced synergy with their station power name sake.
this being a field skills just sort of make sense. an escort hugging an eng could provide BO double tap support to allied escorts, theres a reason right there to have an eng around.
your right, just having this skill to fill out the pushed out caps is enough now.
i think i might have actually said this first during a spirited OPVP eng discussion, that inspired this list of changes i made. if he had said it before, i wasn't around to hear it, and came up with it as well.
given everything else, ya a whole team application is a bit much. half strength and cast able on others is enough.
my brain is straining to visualize the final extra damage it would provide, but i still think it falls short of a tac just useing APA. if it can eclips that then 150 needs dialing back a bit. frankly i think the tac should be best at spike, but not necessarily at constent long term dps. given the value of spike over any other sort of damage, as in its the only thing thats capable of actually killing, even highly buffed pressure wont be as valuable, or any sort of replacement for tac captain spike.
About 20% more damage than what 125 gives.
Answers in red.
You don't need Tac level spike if you can just bring 2 or 3 engineers with permanent higher damage firing off constant spikes who are also ridiculously hard to kill.
There is no way to separate this ability from Beam arrays, so suddenly ENG is doing 20% more damage with DHCs all of the time. This could possibly shift ENG/Escort to the defacto best choice in PvE as well.
So if you want to make this 150 weapon power only calculate for BAs, sure. Since it would affect every energy weapon type (namely, DBBs and DHCs), then it's just too powerful.
You don't need to "outspike" the Tac when you have more consistent spike in a more group friendly package. It's the entire package of the engineer as damage mitigator that makes this much extra, raw, damage too much.
The best way to visualize it would be to go to space, set your weapons to 125 and record damage on DHCs and an APO buff BO.
Then set it to 100 and do the same.
I'd do it myself now, but I'm at work.
I think Tac should be the top dog for all damage, as this is the only thing Tac captains bring to the Table in the current game.
Er, no (assuming the wiki is correct on this still). Tac captains in space can:
Increase damage (base, crits)
Increase maneuverability
Decrease timer cooldown on tac abilities (buff self)
And debuff the enemy
Strangely enough sci can:
Debuff the enemy
Buff team and self
And increase damage (photonic fleet)
Engineering can:
Buff self
All of this is in space of course. I am sensing a definate lack of things that Eng captains can do compared to the other classes. Tacs are actually the most versitile with their abilities in that they can do many things, all at once. Sci are second on the list. Eng is of course on the bottom, which is the problem.
Personally, I say that Eng captains should have a second level of power dedicated to directly increasing damage, not to the level of the tac, but more than photonic fleet can give a sci. And a lower level power dedicated to debuffing the enemy or buffing the team. I'd vote for buffing the team since that would leave both debuffing and buffing at the hands of science captains while tac and eng only get one half of the pie.
So however it needs to be done, eng captains need more direct damage done, and need to be able to team heal more. Maybe replace Nadion inversion with something more attack pattern alpha-ish (Warp power to weapons? Maybe robs all power from engines to direct to weapons?) and then make MW either castable or a field effect like with scattering field.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Please don't confuse what you read on the wiki for what actually takes place.
The maneuverability increase is a turn rate buff, it's not huge and the goal is...dealing damage.
Decrease timer cooldown = increase rate of use of damage powers. I.e. deal damage. It also happens to be functionally useless on the vast majority of Escort builds that already have CD DOFFs or duplicate copies of every power.
Debuff the enemy = reduce resistance = create more damage. It is also cleared by Tac team, one of the most ubiquitous powers in the entire game, pvp or pve.
i.e. the total package of the Tactical captain is dealing damage.
I think its clear that tehy are meaning for cruisers to be the most accessible newby class of ship.
your gunna have to go pretty far beyond 150 to get the same kind of overcaping you need with beam arrays now at 125. other wise your pressure damage from having your power max at only about 160 is still going to drain you to 100 damage or below during fireing cycles, making the increase in damage much more mild then it might look on paper. this is of course is not an issue with DHCs though, and thier energy draining, and a legitimate concern. so often though spiky alphas with much higher damage then this 150 weapons power attack will do nothing to a target, no mater if that attack lasts 10 seconds or indefinitely. ya, with this change a 4 DHC eng escort would have the highest DPS, and thus be best at sieging targets in STFs. oh well.
in all the pugmade vs pugmade matches ive been in, if the tacs dealt less spike but more pressure, the matches still would not be over. a tac can still hit much harder then this new eng could. a 5 fleet excecior FAW team could abuse the TRIBBLE out of this new 150 weapons power thing, but thats just more reason to remove that skill from the game. an eng built to run 150+ weapons power at all time is also not an going to be nearly as hard to kill. first of all, i already cut the heals from MW and RSF in half, and second, all your energy buffing eforts are going to mainly be into weapons power. the near unkillable eng ships that are in the game now have their weapons power set to 25. taking things like EPtW3, DEM3, and running 2 AtB builds so you can fully use your damage potential will make these eng no more durable then any tac cruiser is now. it does not get everything at once, its not as good a healer as ever, and a massively better damage dealer at the same time. with the shield res cap reachable by escorts, being able to buff shield power to 150 i dont think pushes the envelope any farther then it already is. an eng heal boat with 150 aux powered sci heals will be harder to kill and suport even harder then ever. the thought of renim healing 25% harder is most scary of all!
ya, poor tac. they can only do the only thing that maters! when even the strongest spike isnt always enough, its hard to rate this enhanced eng pressure. non spike has 0 value, on escorts this is still always going to be inferior spike. not high enough to break even with the cross healing. if it cant do that, then its still of zero value really. but outside of mid to high end team play, it would be a thing again.
I know you clarified this a little bit later, but I also wanted to point out that I've championed the following in a few threads...with this thought process.
Consider the characters in the various Star Trek series, eh? Unfortunately, this has a high Starfleet slant to it - but that's what we mainly saw.
There are three major Starfleet Divisions: Command, Operations, and Science. Tactical and Engineering are part of Operations. Command is not only "Command" - but it also includes Conn, Helm, etc, etc, etc.
So imagine if there were four MOS that players could choose from...
Command
Ops-Tac
Ops-Eng
Science
...and if they could choose to dual spec or single spec.
In choosing to dual spec, they would choose a Primary and a Secondary MOS. For the five abilities, they would get the Fleet ability of their Primary. They would have to pick at least one ability from each...but the remaining two could be from either.
The abilities would have to be better balanced as they would be lining up with each in a hierarchical view. They couldn't take two uber abilities, so to speak, it would work kind of like the Reputation system choices. MOS-A vs. MOS-B...with that T5 being the Fleet of the Primary.
It was kind of decided that it would be way complicated though - confusing to new players - and require work that would take forever to do.
Because it is what Geko keeps saying...
Tell the game's Lead Designer that, eh?
The five Captain Abilities flavor the Class. Yes, if you put a Tac, Eng, or Sci in the same Ship - it changes the Ship. Then again, so does changing any Gear, changing the BOFFs, and changing the DOFFs.
I don't like it, but Geko having said it over and over now - it's pretty easy to see where the Career is itemization for the Ship. He thinks of them as Classes. KDF BoPs? They're Assassin Class. You put a Tac, Eng, or Sci in there - you've got a different kind of Assassin.
In various threads discussing Geko's thoughts on what is the Class and what is the Itemization for the Class (never had him reply in there, just a bunch of us ranting and raving about it) - it's been pointed out how difficult that is to accept for many. They're character-centric. The Ship is Gear...not the Character is Gear. But the more you look at the way certain things work, the easier it is to see how perhaps the Lead Designer is correct...you know, completely ignoring that he is the Lead Designer...which many would like to do.
Consider most MMOs out there, eh? Look at how involved the character is, eh? Look at all the abilities they have, the distinct skills, the various restrictions, and all that. It's not there in STO.
Skill build in Space? Career doesn't matter.
Ship? Career doesn't matter.
BOFFs? Career doesn't matter.
DOFFs? Career doesn't matter.
Gear? Career doesn't matter.
Let's look at it from a Ship PoV instead, eh?
Skill build in Space? Restricted? No, but the other restrictions will create a guideline. So the Ship does matter.
Career? Restricted? No, but there will be issues that either result in restrictions or the need for assistance from gear. They're loosening this somewhat with the change to arcs, but consider the Sci trying to use SNB in a very slow turning vessel. Just not as effective, eh? So the Ship does matter.
BOFFs? The Ship definitely matters.
DOFFs? By way of the BOFFs, the Ship definitely matters.
Gear? The number of Tac/Eng/Sci Consoles are limited. Certain Ships can use DHCs. Fed/KDF Ships will be using Warp Cores while Romulan Ships will be using Singularity Cores. They're looking at adding the Secondary Deflector for Science Vessels. They're looking at options for Cruisers. So yeah, the Ship matters.
So we have the Career that flavors things but does not restrict anything and we have the Ship that does restrict things. Which sounds more like the Class?
It's like there are two different games taking place, eh? Consider just how different Ground and Space are in that regard. On the Ground, yep - the Career does create restrictions - Kits. The Skills are different on Ground. Yep, there's no doubt that on Ground the Career is the Class...
...but move to Space? The Career is pretty much a Kit for the Ship which is the Class. You pick your Kit which will flavor what kind of Fighter, Paladin, Assassin, Cleric, Sorceror, etc, etc, etc you decide to fly.
I'm character-centric. I don't like it. There was always something that bugged me about Space that I couldn't put my finger on. Geko said it. I laughed. Geko said it again. I looked. I sighed. At least I had an explanation for what was bugging me about Space that I couldn't put my finger on...
I'm sure they want us to roll new toons for every ship. Not happening. Our inaction forces them to be wrong, ergo they are wrong have always been wrong and forever will be wrong.
That's the thing, they don't want us to roll new toons. Geko said he was surprised that people didn't buy and fly more ships. It was another head scratching moment...how can he say X and then wonder Y? It's a Geko Consistency...known in the real world as an inconsistency.
It doesn't seem like this class really works outside of carriers anymore though.
2) Make EPS Transfer boost subsystem power bonuses by 10% (IE 125 wpn power now gives 275% damage bonus instead of 250%)
3) Make RSF cast-able
4) Profit
So my main comment that CC was not, for a very long time, used by the pvp community until in a pvp tournament it was used to great effect is not answered. The CC was there in it current state for a very long time and considered worthless, until it was actually used by a team. Then it went from being perceived as worthless to being OP. At this point the only thing that had altered was player perception, not the game skill. My point was this 'could still be the case' I say could because I acknowledge I am not familiar with all the changes and the skills as they currently are.
Instead you focus on something that was correct at the time I gamed when it was used, if the game altered, well it altered, but skills were never dump and click = win, which was your comment and I disagree.
So you agree then that I am correct and CC skills, and if you like other skills in general are not click = win, there was and is more to it. Why not just say so?
No one claimed the game was difficult, it is an mmo, hardly the forerunner of difficult games, only that your comment click = win was not correct, and anyone seeking to rely on that comment will not find themselves going from non factor to renowned player
Finally, so after a couple of paragraphs of pointless posturing you accept that coordination, better timing is the key and not simply click=win, you could have saved your keyboard a lot of bashing and just accepted your initial post was poorly worded and you were in error to claim click = win as a single stand alone comment.
Again you miss the point and seek to answer in isolation. My point followed your assertion that
I pointed out Tachyon beam was always on the list of pointless skills, again until it was used to good effect as a supporting skill to CPB, with a couple of ships with TB you could apply it after CPB to prevent shield regeneration or as preparation from 10k out. So actually you accept that those 'worthless' skills might not be so worthless if used in conjunction with other powers or in a creative build. Just because something is the norm does not relegate everything to worthless. Though I will accept skills can be of less value if used in isolation or inappropriately.
Ah see you got there, now why not just say that at the start, and save the meaningless defence of a comment by attempting to make Tachyon beam the issue, when that was merely an example of a skill that had little value until it was discovered to be excellent as a Science force multiplier
I also doubt that against similar teams 'more skill' is required, I highly doubt many of those skilled players who left if they came back would find themselves as non factors because they just lack the skill and were only good when the game was easy.
I think that is just a lot of pompous BS and you just want to blow your own trumpet a bit. You are considered a good player now, before you were not, well done, I am not seeking to belittle you, however that you are more skilled than they were, I am not sure you can imply that, given you failed to do well while they were here. The game has altered to a point it is impossible to directly compare, however I think they if they were still here they would be as competitive as they were before. They will have adapted too
When equal teams face each other, either with the same skills or different skills per player or per team then the team that most intelligently uses the skills to create opening or close opening will win, I disagree that just because the skills get buffed, nerfed, or skill trees changed or those officers you get from packs are introduced, the team with the more 'surgical' use of the available powers win. it is not a lottery based on random spamming, just as picking the optimum time for the use of a single SNB is more devastating that 3 players spamming it one after another to try to get a kill. Surgical control is what has always separated good from great, well along with some innovation to stay ahead of the sheep.
I have no idea what you have now as far as the game itself goes, so will make no comment on the matter.
As for being dominant as I recall pandas were only just forming when I left and tbh I thought it was what was left of QEW, and no at that point you were far from dominant, though you probably pug stomped really well back then. I am talking about my time period after all.
I will accept I didn't make myself as clear as I should have here, the mistake is mine. I was referring to the early days were you had a skill tree and a ship with mods and shields and guns, nothing more really. You all had the maxed skill tree, the rest, well while purple was never a bad thing, it was not essential, greens and blues would not see you at much of a disadvantage.
Todays game seems to have a legacy (not sure the name in this game) grind to gain skill boosts and officers from backs that you send on missions that add significant advantages to powers, along with mods that only come from c store ships seems that there is a gap forming power wise between those that are long standing players and those who are new. I always liked STO as it did not require that long grind to catch up, hitting 50 (or whatever it is) was enough, now you have the grind to complete and the duty officers to collect to be competitive. Or so I am informed.
Yes, things might be different now, but back then, you lost.
well it certainly had Era and Hilbert.
FAW was a mess, but that was not the point of the post, guess the ego need to be heard.
I only ever used one bind myself, to balance shields while firing weapons, I prefer not to automate to much. Though again far from the posts content
You were an almost exclusive KDF player during my time, much of it in a fleet whose name I forget with a leader called ****ok or some such, if that has altered then it altered and i stand corrected on the issue.
So spike as I claimed is no worse and is/was always relative to the conditions of the game, yes perhaps you can do more damage now, but if you can mitigate more the relative damage has not altered significantly, unless perhaps you are new and so not have all the things required as I mentioned earlier such as the right officers from packs or skills from the legacy leaving you to far behind the power curve.
you claimed spike was massive and healing was only helpful if you have the reactions of a super human to be viable in your post, in a subsequent post you add more information and make other claims, different entirely from your initial post. Simply accept that your post was again poor and you should not have make such a wildly inaccurate statement.
Anticipating, and pre-emptive defence preparation at the correct time, the decision making are all important, and should always be the key to winning in my opinion. However if there is only one or two healers out of all the players that have fast enough reactions and they are in your team, well no one is likely to survive your spike, while you can survive theirs making the game worthless.
So again, you agree with me when I said in my post that skill should be about your timing and choices (please read decisions) made during the fight and not come down to who has the fastest reactions. Why not just say so.
In the end you wrote a poor first post, which I disagreed with, rather than just accept that your post was not well written you went to a lot of trouble to make claims I made while opting to leave out the sections of my post that claimed them and to pull out small sections of my comments to focus on in an attempt to say duh oblivious. when you opt to use terms like 'no brainer' to discuss something that truly had no relevance to the subject of my post I think you know you are attempting to deflect the attention from the focus of the posts discussion.
To a large extent that's true, but you are forgetting that things are not discovered in a static environment. For example, if BtSS stacking hadn't been rightfully nerfed in Season 2 (or was it 1.1?) there would have been no need to "discover" heavy CC builds, or any other type of strategy really, because BtSS stacking would still be more powerful. Given enough time in a static environment, players will figure out the best way to approach the game and never need to deviate.
No, my point still stands that the previous iteration of CC had little nuance. Obviously "click-to-win" isn't meant to be taken 100% literally -- you don't click a button and have a screen come up stating "congratulations for your victroy!" Ditto with pay-to-win, or any other "to-win."
Your argument is that something cannot be click-to-win if the better team still prevails when both sides are using it instead of having the game turn into some kind of coin toss. It's an argument that is both absurd at face value and demonstrably wrong.
A good example of "click-to-win" (and incidentally "pay-to-win") in the game right now is temporal inversion field. If team A always beats team B by something like 15-8, 15-10 and then team B takes 3 copies of TIF and proceeds to wipe team A by 15-0, 15-1 simply by activating the same three powers at the same time, that's click-to-win. Just because team A comes back with three copies of TIF for themselves and proceeds to beat team B every single match again does not make TIF a nuanced ability. In fact, TIF requires basically no skill whatsoever to use. I'll admit that TIF is a more extreme example than the last iteration of CC, but it's the same principle on reduced scale.
I was only correcting your point that people thought TB was OP. People only thought of CPB as being OP, not TB. The rest of what you wrote I agree with. For example, a lot of people now think that tac cruisers are pointless. We've figured out how to make some great damage dealing tactical cruisers, though the vast majority of the community hasn't caught on yet.
Sure, I'll admit I shouldn't have nit-picked. It was retaliatory for some similar nit-picking you had done in your post. Why don't we both try to focus on the main issues?
I didn't say they wouldn't.
Ok, this might explain a good deal of your hostility and skepticism.
Pandas was formed as a federation fleet, mostly made up from ex-members of an (at best) middle rung Klingon fleet, which most definitely wasn't QEW. Lord Tide did join sometime after we formed, but that was before QEW left for TOR.
The philosophy behind Pandas was to take everything that happened in the mediocre Klingon fleet we came from and do the opposite. Avoiding instead of abusing broken things, minimizing strife and drama, seeking practice against better teams instead of running away from them, and looking for ways to improve wherever we could find them.
I do regret that back in the day I was quite vocal, at times boastful, on the forums, especially when it comes to defending that specific Klingon fleet. Hell, if our positions were reversed I'd probably be skeptical of you -- assuming of course that you were actually a top player back in the day, since I have no idea if you are what you say you are.
The part in red seems contradictory to the rest of your post to me. Did you mistype something?
And three other players you would expect to find on any given TSI A-team. Arguably it could have been stronger with Rock replacing one of those three, and arguably our team could have been stronger with MT or Vad, but I wouldn't excuse a Panda loss if only a single element was out of place. I'm assuming you would normally think the same way if you weren't trying to win an argument
In any case, there was a time before the great GW2 TSI exodus matches went back and forth between TSI and SP and it was our two fleets that were driving the meta. I'd prefer not to say much more as I don't want to risk turning this into some kind of SP vs. TSI discussion.
All that being said, it's my hope that players like Rock and Era eventually come back. The ball is really in Cryptic's court to create a better PvP environment to make that possible.
You don't seem to understand that the difference between a buffed and unbuffed target has widened significantly. Assuming both targets are buffed there is no difference, defense and offense have scaled in a more or less linear fashion... but buffs of course can be removed instantly with a subnuke.
I'm getting tired of you taking my arguments and trying to warp them into more extreme, absurd versions.
For example "you can no longer really succeed as a healer who is a 'clicker' since it's not fast enough" now equals "healing is only helpful if you have the reactions of a super human." Are you doing this intentionally or subconsciously?
I'm stating that burst healing is more important nowadays, and you aren't quick enough without binds. That's it.
Only one or two healers who are fast enough in the entire game? There you go again, exaggerating to the point of absurdity.
But I do disagree with you. It's not about one or the other, it's about both. Your form of argument is pigeon holing you into these either/or extremes.
Looking at the size of my original reply, I'm sure the vast majority of your post was directly quoted with very little left out.
-coughs- hehehe
:P
Do you even Science Bro?
Sadly Jorf ruled out bringing eng's to pvp.
so forum pvp is all eng captains have left.
hf driving the meta, sweet spot n all
oh how the times have changed.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
People actually want the Engineer to be able to provide MORE healing?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I'd like to think that I'm moderately less arrogant, but exponentially more qualified to be
Could be worse, at least I'm not annoyingly sarcastic and passive aggressive like some.
Special service just for you. With all those enlightened changes going on in the game, some things should better stay the same.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
It's quite possible. I can't really say for sure.
The fact that neither Engineers nor Cruisers come with built-in threat, or for that matter Threat is thematically linked to Tactical on both the ground and in space does lend a bit of credence to the idea.
I think this is still too focused on Beams, and Beam Arrays and 8x Beam Array set up which was never really intended from what I can see (Bort has posted in the past on this).
The issue is that 150 weapon power will boost any and all energy weapons all of the time.
This is problematic, and not just in PvE.
I don't mean to cut up the rest of your post too much, sorry for any points that might get missed.
I think that's missing the point.
I also think you really under estimate what 150 weapons power with DHCs will do for Engineers.
You're saying it's less spike than Tac, but you're not dealing with the fact that you'd be able to pop a 150 Weapon power CRF 2 + BO 2 every 15s, or a 150 Weapon Power CRF 2 + BO 1 + BO 2 + APO 3 Double Tap Spike every 30s.
Achieving almost half the spike potential 3x as often of the Tac and being a support character at the same time would be a balance issue.
Really? Spike is the only thing that matters?
bort can say all energy is not intended all he wants, and i agree that no ship should be all energy. but until something is done to make torps as good as BO, like something as simple as removing the base 75% res to kinetic damage that shields come with, theres little other choice. pressure damage weapons like beam arrays will also never be compatible with hull smasher torps, because you can distribute shields faster then they can damage, and only 1 weak quantum has a fireing arc that is even workable with the optimum beam array fireing arc. something that can make knetic more desirable, more of a default choice, would mean your using less energy weapons and benefit from the 150 cap less
i dont think we are going to agree on weather this is debilitating or easily tankable. heals cycle about as fast, yours and from others. with how easy it is to shrug off a tacs best, i just dont see the enhanced always on damage an eng could do breaching the healing tipinig point. an eng escort would proboly be unbeatable in an escort dual though, unless it was a short one. this is something we would actually need to test i think.
cc never killed anyone without it
I agree that will will have to agree to disagree, hopefully you agree too. :P
And spike can't kill if it's dead.
You can't simply claim that "spike is the most important", premade teams don't function like that.
There are a lot of working parts, and a lot of contributors of equal value.
Spike is no more important than Debuffing, or Buffs/Healing.
tacs would still have that get kills spike, but eng would have pressure at levels thats more likely to do something, especially when you try to spike with it the best you can with just station powers.
A little off topic but in regards to the damage tacs do, I wouldn't say that spiking in a tac escort is the only thing that has any impact. It has impact, yes, but sustained damage is still important and does generate kills. Spike tacscorts have their place and are becoming increasingly popular with double tap BO's. But it hasn't made high sustained, burst damage tacscorts valueless.
before rep and elite shield proliferation, tac captain heavy pressure in like cruisers did pretty well. if you think it still does well, well thats your opinion. even if its slightly okish still, its effectiveness has at least been cut in half, again.
in fed cruisers and escorts, ive basically given up on them with pressure builds, all my builds are built to spike kill, instead of dealing steady heavy damage with all single cannons on the cruisers or 4 DHCs on escorts. in my experience that stuff is just to easy to out heal as you fire it. if someones paying atention even killer spike can be totaly blunted.
i just dont see an eng, with no tac captain skills, and just more weapons energy being obliterating the pressure effectivness barrier. i doubt an eng with 150 weapons energy will outdo what my tac used to be able to do in one of those 2 AtB single cannon fleet excelsior builds.
I was mainly referring to the 4 dhc escort. You are right, though, elite fleet shields and rep passives have changed escort builds and premade team layouts. But if i'm using an escort other than a spike build, it's not really about out dpsing the other teams heals. It's about creating openings in their heal rotations and, when your ready, having the Sci guys nuke off whatever is left. Lightning fast target switching is one of the things I always try to accomplish. whether if i'm pugging or in a premade. Setting up kill targets two or three switches down the line.
But, to be fair, I would agree that on it's own without team debuffing assistance a spike tacscort is more impactful.