People coming up with builds and strategies that only "work" on pug teams is part of the reason pug teams suck so badly. Puggers play with the the assumption that the rest of their team are incompetent, greedy nincompoops. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
I don't pug often, but when I do I take my premade build and it works just fine.
No need to go about bashing puggers. Going for a pug build doens't necessarily mean that the rest of the team are "incompetent, greedy nincompoops"; it simply means that you construct a build with different expectations. You might be the only healboat on a team of tacscorts (as I often am), or you could be on a team without any SNBs. It's just an additional constraint to work within. (In fact, I'd go so far as to say that making a great pug build is even more difficult than creating a great premade build, since you have to maximize your capabilities without the expectation of major team support. :P)
In pugs, you can't count on the type of support that you'd get in a premade; it pushes you to be a better self-contained fighting unit. It's true that pug teams generally lack strong teamwork and coordination, but it's a great way of training individual skills. (Plus, it means that you can hone your PvP skills even when the rest of your team is offline. )
Furthermore, many pug builds still "work" when put into a premade; like I said earlier, my "pug" healboat can still pull its weight in OPvP pugmades, and can probably still perform favorably if incorporated into a serious premade. In general, added team support can only help the effectiveness of a pug build; additional "premade" effectiveness tends to come from moving some of the generality and self-sufficiency off of a pug build and specializing further.
You say that your premade build works fine when you decide to pug. Ask yourself:
1) Is your premade build actually that different from a pug build?
2) Is it that your build is so much better than a "pug build", or is it just that you've PvPed for longer and that your skills are helping you perform well in pugs?
That's assuming someone is running an escort. Premade builds are more min/maxed and less selfish -- more team aware. Pug builds are more (often to an extreme extent) selfish and generalized. If you find yourself aiming towards the later instead of the former you're setting yourself up to fail and creating bad habits as you go.
That's not quite true. Pug builds are always a great starting point for beginning PvPers; as you yourself said, they're generally more self-reliant and generalized. This allows those new to PvP to get an overall sense of how PvP matches flow and what's required to bring a target down -- a combination of good team DPS/spike, CC, and healing. Pug builds often are the perfect stepping stones to more specialized premade builds.
Pugging is a great way to learn the basics of STO PvP and getting a feel as to how to be "good" at a role, whether it's DPS/spiker, CCer, or team healer; once you get those skills, it's much easier to transition to the more specialized "premade" teams and builds. In fact, pugging (and fighting against premades) can give many PvPers a better sense as to the value of teamwork and coordination in STO; they can compare their experiences in the teams that had 5 tacs vs. the teams that had a good combination of tac, sci, and eng.
Furthermore, pug builds aren't always selfish. Just as an example, my own healboat setup is almost entirely team-focused; the only "selfish" abiltiies I get are the 2xEPtS and the Engineer captain abilities. If I wanted to make my build less "selfish", I'd have to port it over to my Science captain for that bag of dirty tricks.
tl;dr: Don't be so quick to bash pugs. Pugging and pug builds are valuable in learning the basics of PvP and getting comfortable in a chosen role; plus, they make transitioning to premades and premade builds easier.
Jorf, when was the last time you queued solo ? :P And how many times is it per year ? 2 ? 5 ? But I understand, stomping them PuGs is serious bussiness, and you need premade team for that :P
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That's assuming someone is running an escort. Premade builds are more min/maxed and less selfish -- more team aware. Pug builds are more (often to an extreme extent) selfish and generalized. If you find yourself aiming towards the later instead of the former you're setting yourself up to fail and creating bad habits as you go.
I had to take a moment to think about how to reply to this in relation to the thread. Because I think a lot of folks might read what you're saying wrong. Maybe they're taking it right and I'm reading it wrong, but I'm basing the way I'm reading it on what you said in your thread:
A good general principle to follow is that a team focused build is preferable to a selfish one, with the possible exception of a 'carry' (though it's certainly arguable that such builds are still 'team focused', just in a less than obvious manner). Another principle is to look at each teammate's build as one piece of a larger puzzle. In other words, the 'build' is the entire team, with each player comprising a small portion of it. For example, some skills have diminishing returns the more you have on your team. Other skills are force multipliers, and others you can't possibly have too many of. By looking at the entire team as a single build, inefficiencies are easier to see and correct. For example: Player A has two copies of Extend Shields, and no copies of Aux2Sif. Player B has an Aux2Sif, but doesn't have a copy of Extend Shields. In a vacuum, either build might appear to work well, but taken together it's obvious that player A needs to drop an Extend and gain an Aux2Sif, while Player B needs to drop his Aux2Sif and slot an Extend. The result is that hull healing remains constant, while shield healing potential increases by one third and more flexibility is gained in the application of the Extends. The beauty of this process is that even outside of the team - or if both players are put on separate teams - these builds are arguably still stronger than they were before the adjustments.
A last point to keep in mind is that the number of potential teammates that might make up your premade will often dictate the amount of specialization you can fit into a build. If you're always playing with the same four friends, you can really get down and optimize each and every build to function together as a single unit. On the other hand, if your team is made up of you and any four of a dozen or so possible players you may need to use a more generic setup. Often times, you'll be able to switch between generic and specialized setups by changing around a few items and bridge officers. It's a balancing act to be able to pull off both without sacrificing either, and ideally you will figure out something that doesn't involve making sacrifices in your skill tree.
It's not simply about having some of the 6 self/ally abilities (or the 1 ally ability) out of the 48 available abilities. It's more about adaptability and synergy with the team, no? Carrying spare BOFFs with various abilities, perhaps even weapons when dealing with that pesky ResA/ResB, and well - just the adaptability of the build, not necessarily the build the person in the PUG first enters the match with - but how they can adapt that build and find synergy with the team once everybody is there, eh?
As an aside, I'd say that's kind of asking too much - folks may or may not have spare BOFFs - spare gear - there's not going to be the time to work all of that out at a start of a match while the premade or even PUGmade can work that out before they even queue. It's the way I tend to look at it - it's not the build, it's the communication, adaptability, and potential synergy that separates the premade from the PUGmade from the PUG.
But getting back to the topic of the Engineer and the Career Abilities...would you say folks should be offering suggestions that are not necessarily not selfish (just making certain things usable on others) - but - rather making suggestions that offer more synergy in regard to what the Tac and Sci Captain Abilities offer?
Cause right now, that synergy does exist for a style of PvE that doesn't exist in the game.
Eng Tank, Tac DPS, Sci Support. Eng grabs the threat, Tac beats on the target, the Sci helps the Eng deal with getting beat on and helps the Tac beat on the target.
That synergy is there, but like I said - that PvE doesn't exist in the game, go figure, eh?
So it shouldn't be that difficulty to push for a new synergy with the Trio - one that would work in PvP and also not be too shabby in what we have for PvE, eh?
Ask a sci how awesome photonic fleet is. It would just as effective really.
Oh I know what photonic fleet is. I'm just suggesting interaction between them...like an engi skill that would buff their weapons power or grant them faster fire rate. :rolleyes:
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I honestly think there's nothing wrong with eng toons as they are. Would be nice to see a few changes to some of the cruisers, but that's for another thread. Try having an eng in the Vesta. Nasty little bugger there. I got 1st place in the CE FA over half of the 14 times I ran it. Being able to hit CRF, Nadion Inversion, EPS Trasnsfer, AND the Quantum Focused Phaser really takes it's toll on an enemy. I've been in a 2vs.3 private PVP match with this thing and made 10 of the 15 kills needed to win. RSF and MW are excelent skills, letting you tank tons of damage, especially a tac-scort's massive alpha strikes. Then there's the combination of Feedback Pulse and Multidimensional Graviton Shield. With Aux maxed along with the right maxed skills and consoles, you can reflect .75 with FP and 1.4 or higher with the graviton shield. That is certainly nothing to sneeze at and will make a cocky escort pilot treat you with a lot more caution after they pop themselves from the reflected damage. Then you get the Fermion field's AOE heals which will make team-mates even happier. And can't forget the perfect 'get my sorry *bleep* out of here' combo of the pefect shield ability from the Vesta console set with EM. Of course, you could just use the perfect shield to stay next to a tac cube while it explodes and you take no damage, but that's just personal preferance.
It would be interesting to see how many players will roll engineer romulan compared to tac and sci. But I guess the numbers will be so embarrasing, that we will never see them.
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It would be interesting to see how many players will roll engineer romulan compared to tac and sci. But I guess the numbers will be so embarrasing, that we will never see them.
With the changes to EPtX, the new traits, potential gearing choices, and grabbing an "Alien" hybrid...
It would be interesting to see how many players will roll engineer romulan compared to tac and sci. But I guess the numbers will be so embarrasing, that we will never see them.
I know I won't.
I love my KDF Engi as he's basically a Swiss Army Chainsaw but my Fed Eng is totally useless in PvP and I don't see any ship in the Romulan pipeline that would be ideal for an Engi.
Besides, tanking as a Romulan? Really?? What self-respecting Romulan is going to go out in front of his team and say "Here I am, SHOOT ME!"
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For closed Beta, I actually rolled an Engi Romulan. Why? Simply because I can sit in front of enemies and troll Plama Torp High Yield. That torp is going to hurt them a lot more than it's going to hurt me
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No need to go about bashing puggers. Going for a pug build doens't necessarily mean that the rest of the team are "incompetent, greedy nincompoops"; it simply means that you construct a build with different expectations.
Not what I'm trying to say. What I meant was that bad builds that don't benefit the team are the result of players that have this mentality that the team is not to be trusted. Thinking "I'll make a self focused build because I can't rely on my team" just means that the rest of your team can't rely on you. It's one part vicious circle, another part self fulfilling prophecy.
I'd go so far as to say that making a great pug build is even more difficult than creating a great premade build, since you have to maximize your capabilities without the expectation of major team support. :P)
The only great pug builds are great premade builds. A build that is self focused will never be able to maximize it's capabilities.
In pugs, you can't count on the type of support that you'd get in a premade; it pushes you to be a better self-contained fighting unit. It's true that pug teams generally lack strong teamwork and coordination, but it's a great way of training individual skills. (Plus, it means that you can hone your PvP skills even when the rest of your team is offline. )
Setting yourself up to be a self contained "jack of all trades, master of none" will teach bad habits and lead to failure. I agree that playing in a pug is a good way to train yourself though. For example, on my science healer pugging helps train me to tank through awareness and maneuverability more so than relying on team members. Having to coordinate with damage dealers who aren't on voice comms helps me to anticipate cadence better in any scenario.
Furthermore, many pug builds still "work" when put into a premade; like I said earlier, my "pug" healboat can still pull its weight in OPvP pugmades, and can probably still perform favorably if incorporated into a serious premade. In general, added team support can only help the effectiveness of a pug build; additional "premade" effectiveness tends to come from moving some of the generality and self-sufficiency off of a pug build and specializing further.
If a pug build works in a premade, chances are it's set up like more of a premade build anyway. That, or the player is deluding themselves -- think about how many times we have heard PvErs refuse help because they honestly believe their rainbow builds perform great?
You say that your premade build works fine when you decide to pug. Ask yourself:
1) Is your premade build actually that different from a pug build?
2) Is it that your build is so much better than a "pug build", or is it just that you've PvPed for longer and that your skills are helping you perform well in pugs?
1) Vastly
2) Obviously skill plays a part, and by flying a greedy build you're going to run face first into a brick wall as far as learning goes.
Furthermore, pug builds aren't always selfish. Just as an example, my own healboat setup is almost entirely team-focused; the only "selfish" abiltiies I get are the 2xEPtS and the Engineer captain abilities. If I wanted to make my build less "selfish", I'd have to port it over to my Science captain for that bag of dirty tricks.
That sounds like a good build, except the entire part about being an engineer of course. That's all that I am trying to tell pugs to do -- adopt more team focused builds like you say you have done. I'm not against pugs, just greedy and selfish builds that are designed around the assumption that your team is incompetent.
It would be interesting to see how many players will roll engineer romulan compared to tac and sci. But I guess the numbers will be so embarrasing, that we will never see them.
I will be.
And he or she is gonna get him or herself a Fleet D'deridex, and fly that sucker around the galaxy till the end of time.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
It's not simply about having some of the 6 self/ally abilities (or the 1 ally ability) out of the 48 available abilities. It's more about adaptability and synergy with the team, no? Carrying spare BOFFs with various abilities, perhaps even weapons when dealing with that pesky ResA/ResB, and well - just the adaptability of the build, not necessarily the build the person in the PUG first enters the match with - but how they can adapt that build and find synergy with the team once everybody is there, eh?
To be honest, adapting your tactics is usually far more powerful than adapting your gear.
Last week by myself. Yesterday or the day before if you count teaming up with Naz for a shakedown cruise of his new sci/sci alt. We beat some dutch premade 15-2 just by healing our pug escorts, watching what they were doing, and coordinating with them the best we could minus voice comms. One of our tacscorts was pretty worthless to boot, doing about one third of the damage of either myself or Naz in our sci/sci builds.
Wow, twice per 2 weeks. Let's hope you won't sustain any permanent damage from that experience Jorf :P After all, playing in PuGs make people bad. :P
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A build that is self focused will never be able to maximize it's capabilities.
There are 48 BOFF abilities.
6 of them are self/ally.
1 of them is ally.
The average ships has room for 12 BOFF abilities.
Almost everybody is carrying 2-3 if not more of the 6 self/ally abilities already.
I guess I'm just having a difficult time seeing what a premade build is compared to a PUG build...outside of the premade build being built to synergize with the other members of the team - which is something somebody that PUGs can't do...won't know what the other folks have until the match starts.
It's almost a circular argument where the intent simply appears to be to put down those that PUG.
I guess I'm just having a difficult time seeing what a premade build is compared to a PUG build...outside of the premade build being built to synergize with the other members of the team - which is something somebody that PUGs can't do...won't know what the other folks have until the match starts.
A premade build is properly min/maxed, and geared towards benefiting the team as opposed to the individual.
For the sake of argument let's take a sci Wells, though most of this will apply to science ships in general.
Running an RSP isn't benefiting the team.
EPtS 3 is also not benefiting the team.
Running an energy weapon build isn't proper min/maxing. Also borderline selfish since the only good reason to run energy weapons is to make PvE less boring.
Running even a single tactical team isn't properly min/maxing. If those tactical teams are always cast on self it's also selfish. Running a science team with two doffs to get down to the GCD is proper min/max.
If you slot a tactical Lt or higher, not carrying a copy of Delta is selfish.
Running a FBP3 isn't benefiting the team, and is an incredibly selfish choice. VM3, SS3, or PSW3 do benefit the team.
Running any more than a single copy of PH is very selfish.
Jam Sensors or MES are both selfish.
Elite fleet shields are selfish, and the borg set is selfish to a lesser degree. MACO or KHG 2-piece plus an elite fleet deflector is less selfish and better min/max.
Running even a single field gen or shield emitter amplifier is selfish. With few exceptions, you want to buff your shield healing. Running three or more field gens in a sci makes you a greedy TRIBBLE that only cares about himself.
As a general rule apart from the above examples, running an engineer nowadays is one of the most selfish things you can do.
There's undoubtedly more, but I think that's enough to get the picture. Ideally, you don't want to break any of these guidelines. One or two may not be a huge deal (depending on which ones you break), but more than that and you're handicapping your team, as well as yourself -- though you may not realize the later.
Not what I'm trying to say. What I meant was that bad builds that don't benefit the team are the result of players that have this mentality that the team is not to be trusted. Thinking "I'll make a self focused build because I can't rely on my team" just means that the rest of your team can't rely on you. It's one part vicious circle, another part self fulfilling prophecy.
The only great pug builds are great premade builds. A build that is self focused will never be able to maximize it's capabilities.
Usually "maximizing a build's capabilities" means specializing further and losing some capabilities (whether it be damage, CC, or heals) on that ship. That's fine for premades, where you can construct a team such where people cover for each others' deficiencies, but that's not guaranteed for pugs. In essence, specialized premade builds can achieve far more than a more self-contained, "pug" build can; however, they can perform even worse than a "pug" build if the team composition isn't good and/or if there's little to no teamwork/coordination in the pug team.
It's what I said earlier; trying to set up a build for a pug simply means operating under a different set of restrictions than premades. It doesn't mean that (good) pug builds necessarily are any worse than premade builds; it just means that they set out to achieve a different goal with different resources at their disposal. There are going to be a certain amount of self-heals that you'll need in order to reliably survive without outside help; that's one of the constraints of creating a build for pugs.
Setting yourself up to be a self contained "jack of all trades, master of none" will teach bad habits and lead to failure.
First of all, I didn't actually mean to imply that puggers will try to be a jack of all trades. Most puggers will tend to gravitate towards a specific role, such as spike, CC, or team heals; the self-contained aspect simply means that they don't expect to have other people on their team achieving the same goals, and thus don't expect team support to achieve their goals. This is what I said earlier about pugging being an important part of helping new PvPers find out what roles they're interested in playing; with continued practice, they'll likely find a setup that they like and that works well for them, and they can continue refining from there.
Second of all, even if a pugger did try to set up a "jack of all trades" build, that's still a good lesson for him. Not only will the pugger get a feel for what it's like to dabble in multiple roles at once, but hopefully the pugger will see exactly why this doesn't work -- jack of all trades don't achieve very much, whether it's in premade or pug PvP. If they're interested in improving, they'll figure out what they can do to emphasize the role they want to pursue.
If a pug build works in a premade, chances are it's set up like more of a premade build anyway. That, or the player is deluding themselves -- think about how many times we have heard PvErs refuse help because they honestly believe their rainbow builds perform great?
...if you're just going to call all good pug builds "more of a premade build anyway", then of course that just leaves the bad pug builds. Not much to discuss there. :P (joking!)
And besides, rainbow builds work great in PvE! It's PvE! :P
2) Obviously skill plays a part, and by flying a greedy build you're going to run face first into a brick wall as far as learning goes.
...
If only it worked that way in the real world, we'd have so many more awesome PvPers now!
Have faith in pugging! I'd guess that many -- if not all -- of the today's great PvPers in STO got their start in pugging. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for these young whippersnappers today!
But seriously, I think you're not giving enough credit to how much improvement of a build can come about by just pugging. You speak as if pugging will always lead to "greedy and selfish" builds (which I presume means focused excessive self-survivability), but in reality it tends to lead away from that. A lot of people will start with too many self heals, but as they get better and better at piloting their ships, they'll start to realize that they can do away with some of those heals to make room for abilities that help their chosen role. They'll also realize what abilities they're carrying don't support their overall goal for their build, and swap them out. This naturally leads away from the all-selfish builds.
To give my own experience as an example, I originally started my healboat career in a DSSV, running 2xFBP and a copy of RSP. I was pretty happy with it at the start, but then with further pugging (and the wisdom of OPvP) I realized that my FBP wasn't actually furthering my goals of healing the team; it was dealing damage, but that damage was hardly useful, and I could slot another heal instead of FBP. With that revelation, I dropped the FBP in favor of another copy of TSS. As I continued pugging, I learned the ins and outs of my heal cycle better, and finally felt good enough to drop the RSP from my build altogether and slot an AtSIF in its place.
Just by trying to do better at team healing in a pug, I got rid of the selfish and unhelpful parts of my build and increased my team support potential. I wasn't trying to go for a "premade" build; I just got better at flying my ship and used the experience I got from pugging to refine my build. Hopefully other puggers are on the same track, improving their skills, refining their builds, and moving away from all-selfish and jack-of-all-trades setups to become better PvPers.
That sounds like a good build, except the entire part about being an engineer of course. That's all that I am trying to tell pugs to do -- adopt more team focused builds like you say you have done. I'm not against pugs, just greedy and selfish builds that are designed around the assumption that your team is incompetent.
If Engineers captains actually carried useful team support abilities, you probably wouldn't say that!
Don't focus on the "greedy and selfish builds" that you sometimes see in pugs; instead, watch how the people who are serious about PvP use their experience from pugging to improve their builds and skills to become better.
...if you're just going to call all good pug builds "more of a premade build anyway", then of course that just leaves the bad pug builds. Not much to discuss there. :P (joking!
Want to try to get to sleep now, but I want to address this point in particular.
The vast majority of pug builds are bad, and they are bad because they are selfish.
I have nothing against all puggers, just the self destructive majority that play selfishly and drag the overall quality of PvP down.
The reason I'm bringing the topic up in this thread is because people are trying to make the argument that engineers are good for pugging because they are more self sufficient than the other captain types. That's the exact kind of selfish rationalization that makes the majority of pugs so terrible.
Since i have on both sides a engineer, I was more or less forced to design a workable pvp build. Currently I succeeded with my klink engineer using the fleet corsair. The build is also in the build thread:
Its remarkeble effective, probably because birds tend to be selfish....so that gives a healer a valid role.
I think in this case with this build/role an engineer is better suited, because when healing your team, and birds decloaking and decloaking, you will also be targetted many times. Then your tank abilities are good to fall back on, you dont have to be afraid to keep heals for yourself.
A few more reasons that this only works on the klink side is that the corsair can run the marauding force. I currently also use it with boarding party 3. Also 2 tractor beams, for crowd control. And because of the engineer and plasmonic leach, power levels are very high. That makes your heals and tractor beams more effective compared to a sci. I also use currently 3 part KHG set, so the stealth field is also good to support your team.
For the build i currently use plasma beams including the romulan experimental beam. With FAW I burn spam and force heals on enemy team. Also because of the 2 piece KHG bonus, and TS2 (replaced it for ADB) I even force more heals with the enemy team.
So conclusion is that in this specific case, an engineer can be a good addition to the team. On fed side im still struggeling to find a nice build.
Again, I think it's a case of trying to set standards for a PUG that are impossible to meet.
Again, they can't possibly know what the other members of the PUG will have - thus, they simply can't build based on the assumption that somebody else will be carrying what they're not carrying. Premade builds are weaker. They're dependent on the other members of the team. The Premade team is stronger. It has that synergy. But an individual Premade ship which has specialized - has left itself open...and if there's nobody covering for that, it's not covered.
I think it's somewhat unfair to try to separate PUG and Premade builds so that they're bad and good. There are bad and good builds, regardless of whether they're PUG or Premade.
Some of the things you listed for the Wells - you've seen folks do some of that? Cause that's got nothing to do with being selfish...that's just about being bad. Some of that stuff was painful to think folks run it.
On the other hand, there's things like no TT. Yep, in the Premade where you know other folks will have the TT, you don't need to carry it. It allows the ship to maximize more - and - it also creates that dependence. That's the trade-off in being in the Premade. Folks in a PUG can't do that - it's not about trust or anything like that - it's literally a case of having no idea what's going to be on the team. You've got no idea what will be there.
You can't build for synergy without knowing what the other folks are going to be running.
Which is where I was asking about the adaptation earlier. Not everybody is going to have the spare BOFFs, spare gear, etc, etc, etc. So not everybody is going to have the ability to adapt. Then there's the time involved with that - match has started - how long is it going to take for everybody to figure out what they've got, who's got what, try to remember who's got what, etc, etc, etc...
...it's just a bad standard to try to hold the PUG group to - it's the wrong standard to hold the PUG group to...
...there's the good/bad PUG group and that's what they should be judged by, imho - not how they compare to a Premade.
edit: I can see trying to make that correlation between the Eng and the "selfish" builds...self-reliance and all that, but I think it was kind of a stretch to go after PUGs that way.
I like the idea of giving eps power transfer the ability to raise the power max value along with current power.
And in a recent podcast there was this idea about an AoE something aura (skill/captain skill) that increases resistance for shield/hull or a heal or something .. basically to give engi captains (in cruisers) an ability to produce an AoE field of added surviveablity around themselves.. or even better like some part of the dmg done to anyone within say 5km will be done to the cruiser/engi itself instead of the original target.
For PvP this idea about tanking via producing aggro is obviously not usuable so what the engi needs is exactly this: a skill to tank for others.
I love this second idea for 2 reasons.. ofc first because its something nice for engis but secondly and foremost because it would make escorts doing exactly that.. escorting a cruiser, meaning staying close to it, and we probably would see much more group like flying all around instead of everyone flying all over the place.
maybe just take engi fleet (and the other fleet skills) and make them AoE instead of just always reaching everyone and change them a bit, foremost ofc the engi version to what i said above. (and decrease their cd)
The Podcast about "auras" was more about cruisers than engineers. It is mainly because escorts/sci ships and cruisers are the classes, while your captain is just another piece of equipment with additional abilities and stats.
I must add, that I really liked the idea of "command aura" of some sort. Giving the tanking cruisers something why they should be targeted, instead ignored.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
The Podcast about "auras" was more about cruisers than engineers. It is mainly because escorts/sci ships and cruisers are the classes, while your captain is just another piece of equipment with additional abilities and stats.
I must add, that I really liked the idea of "command aura" of some sort. Giving the tanking cruisers something why they should be targeted, instead ignored.
I didn't like the way I pictured Geko mulling over adding the Paladin Aura thing to STO in that reply - it's hard enough dealing with all of his fantasy classes existing as ships.
Yes well, because he most likely would create some sort of passive resistance/healing monstrosity aura.
While I would improve accuracy,stealth detection,and perhaps defense rating with a command aura. Something that would mimic the shared sensor data / task force coordination. Basically something, why having a cruiser would benefit the team even if it is not a healer slave.
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instead of reducing dmg or increasing acc or something like that i would prefer just having the cruiser absorb a part of the dmg done within the aura. Like if an escort is hit close to the cruiser, 10-20% of the dmg goes to the cruiser instead.
the dmg will not be decreased that way, just reallocated.
Little question: isn't it (in theory) possible to have a decent engineering healer and therefore tacscorts with less healing abilities but a more aggressive approach (like for example DEM with the doff instead of Aux2Sif or RSP)/sciences predominantly debuff-builds aso in a premade?
The tacscorts can focus on their damage, the sciences on their debuffing/damage as well and the engineering healer focuses on healing them. In case the healer is the main target, the team can still concentrate on their quests and the engineer still survives - because he is an engineer.
Little question: isn't it (in theory) possible to have a decent engineering healer and therefore tacscorts with less healing abilities but a more aggressive approach (like for example DEM with the doff instead of Aux2Sif or RSP)/sciences predominantly debuff-builds aso in a premade?
Cleansing debuffs is still more important than flat healing. If the Engi innates were actually good, and if they were castable on others, then maybe this would work.
In pugs, you can't count on the type of support that you'd get in a premade
No, you can't as you don't know who you will be teamed with.
Yet it is self-fulfilling.
You can't know who you will team with, so you build around that.
And so does everyone else.
Then they end up on a team together, with no one sorted out to count on anyone else.
The really sad part?
Rep Grind, Expensive Gear, Time Sinks, Expensive Ships, etc. These are all barriers - but players will go to exceptional lengths to acquire this stuff.
Communicating with other players > This should be the lowest barrier, and yet it is one of the greatest for pure PUG arena teams.
Pugging is a great way to learn the basics of STO PvP and getting a feel as to how to be "good" at a role, whether it's DPS/spiker, CCer, or team healer; once you get those skills, it's much easier to transition to the more specialized "premade" teams and builds. In fact, pugging (and fighting against premades) can give many PvPers a better sense as to the value of teamwork and coordination in STO
I don't believe this is completely true.
If it were, people would very clearly recognize the true power of Science captains as force multipliers and there would be more people playing them.
Instead you see quite the constant hysterical drama about Tac captains (who have one really great Career skill, and several others that are mediocre to good) and less PUG healers showing up as ENG.
Furthermore, pug builds aren't always selfish. Just as an example, my own healboat setup is almost entirely team-focused; the only "selfish" abiltiies I get are the 2xEPtS and the Engineer captain abilities. If I wanted to make my build less "selfish", I'd have to port it over to my Science captain for that bag of dirty tricks.
And Tac Team correct?
The power that everyone says every ship must have.
Good premade teams will most likely only have 2 ships, i.e. 4 copies, of this (or DOFF'd equivalent).
The rest will be either 6x Sci Teams (or DOFFd Equivalent) or 4x ST and 2x ET (or DOFF'd Equivalents)
I don't hate the PUG only crowd, but I do feel like playing PUG only really skews many player's views of careers and powers, and their balance.
Looking at VM in a vacuum - or hell, even SNB, and tossing it on random target X, while team is not coordinating and shooting targets Y and Z instead and suddenly SNB looks "useless". (Or god help your PUG team if your only Sci is tossing SNB out onto targets with one buff up).
APA in the same situation at least shows big pretty, easy to understand numbers.
One last thing I'll add is that I think you've been holding onto your ENG for too long.
I'm willing to bet that with roughly similar builds, and solid time invested playing it you could basically get the same results or better with your SCI.
It's not a "bag of dirty tricks", it's a suite of force multiplication powers.
ENG Fleet? > Scattering Field, up more often and is boosted by aux. Only adv to Eng Fleet is radius.
RSF? > Sci Fleet, or SNB the APA off of that careless Tac. Better than any amount of Resistance when you are already most likely running well north of 65% Shield Res - what does RSF actually add to that?
Nadion, EPS?
Sensor Scan? ENG has no answer for this. DOFF can help you shave a bit of the edge off of APA if you choose to use it as a counter strike, otherwise it helps your PUG teams get kills. Dead enemies deal no damage.
SNB? ENG has no answer for this. Multipurpose force multiplier, use it to set up kills or completely deny a careless TAC of his APA for almost an entire match. How much damage do you think that prevents?
EDIT: I forgot MW, I don't think that's a huge change to what I've put above but if it means that much to you, you can hop in a Wells with backstep and call it a day.
I'm seriously the only one who sees the benefit in +10 power to all subsystems all the time that ENGs will have next season? Or that EPS transfer might be a bit more useful to shove an escort to 130 shield when it is being focus fired (minor I know).
Huh. And here I thought 125/125/60/130 power would be a boon to a healer.
I'm seriously the only one who sees the benefit in +10 power to all subsystems all the time that ENGs will have next season? Or that EPS transfer might be a bit more useful to shove an escort to 130 shield when it is being focus fired (minor I know).
Huh. And here I thought 125/125/60/130 power would be a boon to a healer.
Wait what did I miss ?
How do engis get +10 power to all subsystems with the rom patch ?
Comments
No need to go about bashing puggers. Going for a pug build doens't necessarily mean that the rest of the team are "incompetent, greedy nincompoops"; it simply means that you construct a build with different expectations. You might be the only healboat on a team of tacscorts (as I often am), or you could be on a team without any SNBs. It's just an additional constraint to work within. (In fact, I'd go so far as to say that making a great pug build is even more difficult than creating a great premade build, since you have to maximize your capabilities without the expectation of major team support. :P)
In pugs, you can't count on the type of support that you'd get in a premade; it pushes you to be a better self-contained fighting unit. It's true that pug teams generally lack strong teamwork and coordination, but it's a great way of training individual skills. (Plus, it means that you can hone your PvP skills even when the rest of your team is offline.
Furthermore, many pug builds still "work" when put into a premade; like I said earlier, my "pug" healboat can still pull its weight in OPvP pugmades, and can probably still perform favorably if incorporated into a serious premade. In general, added team support can only help the effectiveness of a pug build; additional "premade" effectiveness tends to come from moving some of the generality and self-sufficiency off of a pug build and specializing further.
You say that your premade build works fine when you decide to pug. Ask yourself:
1) Is your premade build actually that different from a pug build?
2) Is it that your build is so much better than a "pug build", or is it just that you've PvPed for longer and that your skills are helping you perform well in pugs?
That's not quite true. Pug builds are always a great starting point for beginning PvPers; as you yourself said, they're generally more self-reliant and generalized. This allows those new to PvP to get an overall sense of how PvP matches flow and what's required to bring a target down -- a combination of good team DPS/spike, CC, and healing. Pug builds often are the perfect stepping stones to more specialized premade builds.
Pugging is a great way to learn the basics of STO PvP and getting a feel as to how to be "good" at a role, whether it's DPS/spiker, CCer, or team healer; once you get those skills, it's much easier to transition to the more specialized "premade" teams and builds. In fact, pugging (and fighting against premades) can give many PvPers a better sense as to the value of teamwork and coordination in STO; they can compare their experiences in the teams that had 5 tacs vs. the teams that had a good combination of tac, sci, and eng.
Furthermore, pug builds aren't always selfish. Just as an example, my own healboat setup is almost entirely team-focused; the only "selfish" abiltiies I get are the 2xEPtS and the Engineer captain abilities. If I wanted to make my build less "selfish", I'd have to port it over to my Science captain for that bag of dirty tricks.
tl;dr: Don't be so quick to bash pugs. Pugging and pug builds are valuable in learning the basics of PvP and getting comfortable in a chosen role; plus, they make transitioning to premades and premade builds easier.
I had to take a moment to think about how to reply to this in relation to the thread. Because I think a lot of folks might read what you're saying wrong. Maybe they're taking it right and I'm reading it wrong, but I'm basing the way I'm reading it on what you said in your thread:
It's not simply about having some of the 6 self/ally abilities (or the 1 ally ability) out of the 48 available abilities. It's more about adaptability and synergy with the team, no? Carrying spare BOFFs with various abilities, perhaps even weapons when dealing with that pesky ResA/ResB, and well - just the adaptability of the build, not necessarily the build the person in the PUG first enters the match with - but how they can adapt that build and find synergy with the team once everybody is there, eh?
As an aside, I'd say that's kind of asking too much - folks may or may not have spare BOFFs - spare gear - there's not going to be the time to work all of that out at a start of a match while the premade or even PUGmade can work that out before they even queue. It's the way I tend to look at it - it's not the build, it's the communication, adaptability, and potential synergy that separates the premade from the PUGmade from the PUG.
But getting back to the topic of the Engineer and the Career Abilities...would you say folks should be offering suggestions that are not necessarily not selfish (just making certain things usable on others) - but - rather making suggestions that offer more synergy in regard to what the Tac and Sci Captain Abilities offer?
Cause right now, that synergy does exist for a style of PvE that doesn't exist in the game.
Eng Tank, Tac DPS, Sci Support. Eng grabs the threat, Tac beats on the target, the Sci helps the Eng deal with getting beat on and helps the Tac beat on the target.
That synergy is there, but like I said - that PvE doesn't exist in the game, go figure, eh?
So it shouldn't be that difficulty to push for a new synergy with the Trio - one that would work in PvP and also not be too shabby in what we have for PvE, eh?
Oh I know what photonic fleet is. I'm just suggesting interaction between them...like an engi skill that would buff their weapons power or grant them faster fire rate. :rolleyes:
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
With the changes to EPtX, the new traits, potential gearing choices, and grabbing an "Alien" hybrid...
I know I won't.
I love my KDF Engi as he's basically a Swiss Army Chainsaw but my Fed Eng is totally useless in PvP and I don't see any ship in the Romulan pipeline that would be ideal for an Engi.
Besides, tanking as a Romulan? Really?? What self-respecting Romulan is going to go out in front of his team and say "Here I am, SHOOT ME!"
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All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Not what I'm trying to say. What I meant was that bad builds that don't benefit the team are the result of players that have this mentality that the team is not to be trusted. Thinking "I'll make a self focused build because I can't rely on my team" just means that the rest of your team can't rely on you. It's one part vicious circle, another part self fulfilling prophecy.
The only great pug builds are great premade builds. A build that is self focused will never be able to maximize it's capabilities.
Setting yourself up to be a self contained "jack of all trades, master of none" will teach bad habits and lead to failure. I agree that playing in a pug is a good way to train yourself though. For example, on my science healer pugging helps train me to tank through awareness and maneuverability more so than relying on team members. Having to coordinate with damage dealers who aren't on voice comms helps me to anticipate cadence better in any scenario.
If a pug build works in a premade, chances are it's set up like more of a premade build anyway. That, or the player is deluding themselves -- think about how many times we have heard PvErs refuse help because they honestly believe their rainbow builds perform great?
1) Vastly
2) Obviously skill plays a part, and by flying a greedy build you're going to run face first into a brick wall as far as learning goes.
If only it worked that way in the real world, we'd have so many more awesome PvPers now!
That sounds like a good build, except the entire part about being an engineer of course. That's all that I am trying to tell pugs to do -- adopt more team focused builds like you say you have done. I'm not against pugs, just greedy and selfish builds that are designed around the assumption that your team is incompetent.
I will be.
And he or she is gonna get him or herself a Fleet D'deridex, and fly that sucker around the galaxy till the end of time.
To be honest, adapting your tactics is usually far more powerful than adapting your gear.
Last week by myself. Yesterday or the day before if you count teaming up with Naz for a shakedown cruise of his new sci/sci alt. We beat some dutch premade 15-2 just by healing our pug escorts, watching what they were doing, and coordinating with them the best we could minus voice comms. One of our tacscorts was pretty worthless to boot, doing about one third of the damage of either myself or Naz in our sci/sci builds.
There are 48 BOFF abilities.
6 of them are self/ally.
1 of them is ally.
The average ships has room for 12 BOFF abilities.
Almost everybody is carrying 2-3 if not more of the 6 self/ally abilities already.
I guess I'm just having a difficult time seeing what a premade build is compared to a PUG build...outside of the premade build being built to synergize with the other members of the team - which is something somebody that PUGs can't do...won't know what the other folks have until the match starts.
It's almost a circular argument where the intent simply appears to be to put down those that PUG.
Forgetting RSP?
A premade build is properly min/maxed, and geared towards benefiting the team as opposed to the individual.
For the sake of argument let's take a sci Wells, though most of this will apply to science ships in general.
Running an RSP isn't benefiting the team.
EPtS 3 is also not benefiting the team.
Running an energy weapon build isn't proper min/maxing. Also borderline selfish since the only good reason to run energy weapons is to make PvE less boring.
Running even a single tactical team isn't properly min/maxing. If those tactical teams are always cast on self it's also selfish. Running a science team with two doffs to get down to the GCD is proper min/max.
If you slot a tactical Lt or higher, not carrying a copy of Delta is selfish.
Running a FBP3 isn't benefiting the team, and is an incredibly selfish choice. VM3, SS3, or PSW3 do benefit the team.
Running any more than a single copy of PH is very selfish.
Jam Sensors or MES are both selfish.
Elite fleet shields are selfish, and the borg set is selfish to a lesser degree. MACO or KHG 2-piece plus an elite fleet deflector is less selfish and better min/max.
Running even a single field gen or shield emitter amplifier is selfish. With few exceptions, you want to buff your shield healing. Running three or more field gens in a sci makes you a greedy TRIBBLE that only cares about himself.
As a general rule apart from the above examples, running an engineer nowadays is one of the most selfish things you can do.
There's undoubtedly more, but I think that's enough to get the picture. Ideally, you don't want to break any of these guidelines. One or two may not be a huge deal (depending on which ones you break), but more than that and you're handicapping your team, as well as yourself -- though you may not realize the later.
Usually "maximizing a build's capabilities" means specializing further and losing some capabilities (whether it be damage, CC, or heals) on that ship. That's fine for premades, where you can construct a team such where people cover for each others' deficiencies, but that's not guaranteed for pugs. In essence, specialized premade builds can achieve far more than a more self-contained, "pug" build can; however, they can perform even worse than a "pug" build if the team composition isn't good and/or if there's little to no teamwork/coordination in the pug team.
It's what I said earlier; trying to set up a build for a pug simply means operating under a different set of restrictions than premades. It doesn't mean that (good) pug builds necessarily are any worse than premade builds; it just means that they set out to achieve a different goal with different resources at their disposal. There are going to be a certain amount of self-heals that you'll need in order to reliably survive without outside help; that's one of the constraints of creating a build for pugs.
First of all, I didn't actually mean to imply that puggers will try to be a jack of all trades. Most puggers will tend to gravitate towards a specific role, such as spike, CC, or team heals; the self-contained aspect simply means that they don't expect to have other people on their team achieving the same goals, and thus don't expect team support to achieve their goals. This is what I said earlier about pugging being an important part of helping new PvPers find out what roles they're interested in playing; with continued practice, they'll likely find a setup that they like and that works well for them, and they can continue refining from there.
Second of all, even if a pugger did try to set up a "jack of all trades" build, that's still a good lesson for him. Not only will the pugger get a feel for what it's like to dabble in multiple roles at once, but hopefully the pugger will see exactly why this doesn't work -- jack of all trades don't achieve very much, whether it's in premade or pug PvP. If they're interested in improving, they'll figure out what they can do to emphasize the role they want to pursue.
...if you're just going to call all good pug builds "more of a premade build anyway", then of course that just leaves the bad pug builds. Not much to discuss there. :P (joking!)
And besides, rainbow builds work great in PvE! It's PvE! :P
Have faith in pugging! I'd guess that many -- if not all -- of the today's great PvPers in STO got their start in pugging. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for these young whippersnappers today!
But seriously, I think you're not giving enough credit to how much improvement of a build can come about by just pugging. You speak as if pugging will always lead to "greedy and selfish" builds (which I presume means focused excessive self-survivability), but in reality it tends to lead away from that. A lot of people will start with too many self heals, but as they get better and better at piloting their ships, they'll start to realize that they can do away with some of those heals to make room for abilities that help their chosen role. They'll also realize what abilities they're carrying don't support their overall goal for their build, and swap them out. This naturally leads away from the all-selfish builds.
To give my own experience as an example, I originally started my healboat career in a DSSV, running 2xFBP and a copy of RSP. I was pretty happy with it at the start, but then with further pugging (and the wisdom of OPvP) I realized that my FBP wasn't actually furthering my goals of healing the team; it was dealing damage, but that damage was hardly useful, and I could slot another heal instead of FBP. With that revelation, I dropped the FBP in favor of another copy of TSS. As I continued pugging, I learned the ins and outs of my heal cycle better, and finally felt good enough to drop the RSP from my build altogether and slot an AtSIF in its place.
Just by trying to do better at team healing in a pug, I got rid of the selfish and unhelpful parts of my build and increased my team support potential. I wasn't trying to go for a "premade" build; I just got better at flying my ship and used the experience I got from pugging to refine my build. Hopefully other puggers are on the same track, improving their skills, refining their builds, and moving away from all-selfish and jack-of-all-trades setups to become better PvPers.
If Engineers captains actually carried useful team support abilities, you probably wouldn't say that!
Don't focus on the "greedy and selfish builds" that you sometimes see in pugs; instead, watch how the people who are serious about PvP use their experience from pugging to improve their builds and skills to become better.
Want to try to get to sleep now, but I want to address this point in particular.
The vast majority of pug builds are bad, and they are bad because they are selfish.
I have nothing against all puggers, just the self destructive majority that play selfishly and drag the overall quality of PvP down.
The reason I'm bringing the topic up in this thread is because people are trying to make the argument that engineers are good for pugging because they are more self sufficient than the other captain types. That's the exact kind of selfish rationalization that makes the majority of pugs so terrible.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7601961&postcount=458
Its remarkeble effective, probably because birds tend to be selfish....so that gives a healer a valid role.
I think in this case with this build/role an engineer is better suited, because when healing your team, and birds decloaking and decloaking, you will also be targetted many times. Then your tank abilities are good to fall back on, you dont have to be afraid to keep heals for yourself.
A few more reasons that this only works on the klink side is that the corsair can run the marauding force. I currently also use it with boarding party 3. Also 2 tractor beams, for crowd control. And because of the engineer and plasmonic leach, power levels are very high. That makes your heals and tractor beams more effective compared to a sci. I also use currently 3 part KHG set, so the stealth field is also good to support your team.
For the build i currently use plasma beams including the romulan experimental beam. With FAW I burn spam and force heals on enemy team. Also because of the 2 piece KHG bonus, and TS2 (replaced it for ADB) I even force more heals with the enemy team.
So conclusion is that in this specific case, an engineer can be a good addition to the team. On fed side im still struggeling to find a nice build.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
Again, they can't possibly know what the other members of the PUG will have - thus, they simply can't build based on the assumption that somebody else will be carrying what they're not carrying. Premade builds are weaker. They're dependent on the other members of the team. The Premade team is stronger. It has that synergy. But an individual Premade ship which has specialized - has left itself open...and if there's nobody covering for that, it's not covered.
I think it's somewhat unfair to try to separate PUG and Premade builds so that they're bad and good. There are bad and good builds, regardless of whether they're PUG or Premade.
Some of the things you listed for the Wells - you've seen folks do some of that? Cause that's got nothing to do with being selfish...that's just about being bad. Some of that stuff was painful to think folks run it.
On the other hand, there's things like no TT. Yep, in the Premade where you know other folks will have the TT, you don't need to carry it. It allows the ship to maximize more - and - it also creates that dependence. That's the trade-off in being in the Premade. Folks in a PUG can't do that - it's not about trust or anything like that - it's literally a case of having no idea what's going to be on the team. You've got no idea what will be there.
You can't build for synergy without knowing what the other folks are going to be running.
Which is where I was asking about the adaptation earlier. Not everybody is going to have the spare BOFFs, spare gear, etc, etc, etc. So not everybody is going to have the ability to adapt. Then there's the time involved with that - match has started - how long is it going to take for everybody to figure out what they've got, who's got what, try to remember who's got what, etc, etc, etc...
...it's just a bad standard to try to hold the PUG group to - it's the wrong standard to hold the PUG group to...
...there's the good/bad PUG group and that's what they should be judged by, imho - not how they compare to a Premade.
edit: I can see trying to make that correlation between the Eng and the "selfish" builds...self-reliance and all that, but I think it was kind of a stretch to go after PUGs that way.
And in a recent podcast there was this idea about an AoE something aura (skill/captain skill) that increases resistance for shield/hull or a heal or something .. basically to give engi captains (in cruisers) an ability to produce an AoE field of added surviveablity around themselves.. or even better like some part of the dmg done to anyone within say 5km will be done to the cruiser/engi itself instead of the original target.
For PvP this idea about tanking via producing aggro is obviously not usuable so what the engi needs is exactly this: a skill to tank for others.
I love this second idea for 2 reasons.. ofc first because its something nice for engis but secondly and foremost because it would make escorts doing exactly that.. escorting a cruiser, meaning staying close to it, and we probably would see much more group like flying all around instead of everyone flying all over the place.
maybe just take engi fleet (and the other fleet skills) and make them AoE instead of just always reaching everyone and change them a bit, foremost ofc the engi version to what i said above. (and decrease their cd)
I must add, that I really liked the idea of "command aura" of some sort. Giving the tanking cruisers something why they should be targeted, instead ignored.
I didn't like the way I pictured Geko mulling over adding the Paladin Aura thing to STO in that reply - it's hard enough dealing with all of his fantasy classes existing as ships.
While I would improve accuracy,stealth detection,and perhaps defense rating with a command aura. Something that would mimic the shared sensor data / task force coordination. Basically something, why having a cruiser would benefit the team even if it is not a healer slave.
the dmg will not be decreased that way, just reallocated.
The tacscorts can focus on their damage, the sciences on their debuffing/damage as well and the engineering healer focuses on healing them. In case the healer is the main target, the team can still concentrate on their quests and the engineer still survives - because he is an engineer.
Just a thought...
Cleansing debuffs is still more important than flat healing. If the Engi innates were actually good, and if they were castable on others, then maybe this would work.
No, you can't as you don't know who you will be teamed with.
Yet it is self-fulfilling.
You can't know who you will team with, so you build around that.
And so does everyone else.
Then they end up on a team together, with no one sorted out to count on anyone else.
The really sad part?
Rep Grind, Expensive Gear, Time Sinks, Expensive Ships, etc. These are all barriers - but players will go to exceptional lengths to acquire this stuff.
Communicating with other players > This should be the lowest barrier, and yet it is one of the greatest for pure PUG arena teams.
I think that's a misnomer.
You can't have ST, and ET and TT and not create gaps for yourself when using one on yourself or others.
There is only so "self contained" you can be.
Do you do damage Ren? Can you score a lot of kills on your own?
Then you are not "self contained".
I don't believe this is completely true.
If it were, people would very clearly recognize the true power of Science captains as force multipliers and there would be more people playing them.
Instead you see quite the constant hysterical drama about Tac captains (who have one really great Career skill, and several others that are mediocre to good) and less PUG healers showing up as ENG.
And Tac Team correct?
The power that everyone says every ship must have.
Good premade teams will most likely only have 2 ships, i.e. 4 copies, of this (or DOFF'd equivalent).
The rest will be either 6x Sci Teams (or DOFFd Equivalent) or 4x ST and 2x ET (or DOFF'd Equivalents)
I don't hate the PUG only crowd, but I do feel like playing PUG only really skews many player's views of careers and powers, and their balance.
Looking at VM in a vacuum - or hell, even SNB, and tossing it on random target X, while team is not coordinating and shooting targets Y and Z instead and suddenly SNB looks "useless". (Or god help your PUG team if your only Sci is tossing SNB out onto targets with one buff up).
APA in the same situation at least shows big pretty, easy to understand numbers.
One last thing I'll add is that I think you've been holding onto your ENG for too long.
I'm willing to bet that with roughly similar builds, and solid time invested playing it you could basically get the same results or better with your SCI.
It's not a "bag of dirty tricks", it's a suite of force multiplication powers.
ENG Fleet? > Scattering Field, up more often and is boosted by aux. Only adv to Eng Fleet is radius.
RSF? > Sci Fleet, or SNB the APA off of that careless Tac. Better than any amount of Resistance when you are already most likely running well north of 65% Shield Res - what does RSF actually add to that?
Nadion, EPS?
Sensor Scan? ENG has no answer for this. DOFF can help you shave a bit of the edge off of APA if you choose to use it as a counter strike, otherwise it helps your PUG teams get kills. Dead enemies deal no damage.
SNB? ENG has no answer for this. Multipurpose force multiplier, use it to set up kills or completely deny a careless TAC of his APA for almost an entire match. How much damage do you think that prevents?
EDIT: I forgot MW, I don't think that's a huge change to what I've put above but if it means that much to you, you can hop in a Wells with backstep and call it a day.
Huh. And here I thought 125/125/60/130 power would be a boon to a healer.
Wait what did I miss ?
How do engis get +10 power to all subsystems with the rom patch ?