I think it is despicable that people, motivated by nothing more than pure greed, would want to be invited to a T5 fleet without having to pay anything.
Not a fleet owner, but a fleet participant. I have to wonder tho, ESPECIALLY with fleets that have hit top tier bases, why they shouldn't charge for new people to join up. Was this new person involved at all in building that fleet base to its level? Probably not.
Sure call it greed on the part of the fleet-holders, but it is ALSO greed on the new guy that purposefully wants to join a Tier 5 fleet. Oh you didn't know they were tier 5 and had a complete base with access to all the doffs and gear and shipyards and stuff? Right.
They want to benefit from the timesink that the fleet participated in to get their resources to the level they're at. Wanting to skip the grind is entirely understandable, but its not more noble.
Not a fleet owner, but a fleet participant. I have to wonder tho, ESPECIALLY with fleets that have hit top tier bases, why they shouldn't charge for new people to join up. Was this new person involved at all in building that fleet base to its level? Probably not.
Sure call it greed on the part of the fleet-holders, but it is ALSO greed on the new guy that purposefully wants to join a Tier 5 fleet. Oh you didn't know they were tier 5 and had a complete base with access to all the doffs and gear and shipyards and stuff? Right.
They want to benefit from the timesink that the fleet participated in to get their resources to the level they're at. Wanting to skip the grind is entirely understandable, but its not more noble.
They aren't charging for sign ups (although, again, no problem if they do; don't like it -- don't join). They're charging for store access.
In my experience, it's generally around 1.5 million EC (a day or two's grinding) for the ability to use a higher tier fleet's store access, with you providing everything else (dilithium, fleet credits, fleet provisions).
If you don't like it, get your own fleet's level up.
Hi. Chief Sleazy Used Starships Salesman for 1st Aquarius Division here.
Well, this is kind of a cute thread. Can't really speak for the other fleets here? But we're a 2-man fleet that got to T5 shipyard before all these other scrub fleets, and have been doing a reputable, honest job of selling ships since the day Dominion lockboxes came out. It was a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of obnoxious expenses. But hey, we did it.
At least in our case there's no working class fleet members to have stolen from, no pilfered profits kept away from those who deserve it. Just me, my partner in crime, and a beautiful Scrooge McDuck style money bank full of EC. A lot of which did get invested back into the starbase, shared with said partner in crime, etc.
So hey. If you want to buy a ship without fearing you're working for a scummy fleet that's advertising stupidly low prices and charging its own members for access too, and want a name that's been trusted at this for several months now, come see us at 1st Aquarius Division in game. :V
If you don't like it, get your own fleet's level up.
Absolutely. If you don't like the price, don't pay it. I just think it's important for people to realize how disproportionate the costs are e.g. you pay millions for a service but it took nothing to extend that service to you. It might factor into some people's decision making process.
Hi. Chief Sleazy Used Starships Salesman for 1st Aquarius Division here.
Well, this is kind of a cute thread. Can't really speak for the other fleets here? But we're a 2-man fleet that got to T5 shipyard before all these other scrub fleets, and have been doing a reputable, honest job of selling ships since the day Dominion lockboxes came out. It was a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of obnoxious expenses. But hey, we did it.
At least in our case there's no working class fleet members to have stolen from, no pilfered profits kept away from those who deserve it. Just me, my partner in crime, and a beautiful Scrooge McDuck style money bank full of EC. A lot of which did get invested back into the starbase, shared with said partner in crime, etc.
So hey. If you want to buy a ship without fearing you're working for a scummy fleet that's advertising stupidly low prices and charging its own members for access too, and want a name that's been trusted at this for several months now, come see us at 1st Aquarius Division in game. :V
hey PM me in game @polie I would like to see about getting those elite tholian fighters.
Hi thanks for your interest. My fleet is not selling access to our T5 stores, so you best bet is to get in touch with one of the other fleets that are.
Hi thanks for your interest. My fleet is not selling access to our T5 stores, so you best bet is to get in touch with one of the other fleets that are.
Quick tip, if you guys are not selling access to your fleet, don't show what you have done in your signature.
If you don't like it, why don't you start your own Fleet and YOU do the hard work yourself. Or do you expect to join a fleet like a drive through candy store? A fleet can run their fleet how they want imo.
Selling access to fleet yards is EXACTLY what should be done.
Most people do not have the time and resources to grind their way to a T5 base, and contrary to the commonly-held belief among those who have good groups and fleets, good groups and fleets do not rain from the sky, and even the best may not have sufficient interest in getting to the T5 base. In fact, some people like to simply play by themselves, or to simply play WITH other people, not getting into a regular group with them. Furthermore, some people do not want to wait several years (literally) for a chance at a T5 starbase ship. As such, those who are charging for it are providing a service to, frankly, most of the game, especially those who want nothing to do with fleets, as should be their right. This is a Massively Multiplayer Online game, not a Massively Codependent Online game.
Considering the sheer amount of resources sunk into starbases, I think it's entirely reasonable that they would sell access to their facilities. Yes, it's expensive, but that should not be much of a surprise. If you want to attack something it should be the starbase system itself and its ship distribution mechanism, which I dislike a good bit, but that ship has sailed.
Even then if they don't show interest in there own fleets projects they wont have the provisioning to get the fleet stuff regardless if they got an visitation invite from a T5 fleet.
2.) Gratuity comes after a service provided, not as a prerequisite for receiving it.
Key differences.
Absolutely. If you don't like the price, don't pay it. I just think it's important for people to realize how disproportionate the costs are e.g. you pay millions for a service but it took nothing to extend that service to you. It might factor into some people's decision making process.
Disproportionate? Let me ask you this: how much refined dlilithium, fleet marks, fleet credits and EC do you think had to go into getting a fleet up to tier 5? If the people who have sunk all those resources to get their fleet up to tier 5 want to charge you to use the their fleet store; then so be it. If you don't like it; you can sink in all the resources it takes to get your fleet to tier 5 yourself. Maybe when you have spent all that; maybe then you'll change your tune about not charging anything...
Disproportionate? Let me ask you this: how much refined dlilithium, fleet marks, fleet credits and EC do you think had to go into getting a fleet up to tier 5?
But all those resources have already been spent. People seem to have a huge issue with the idea of sunk versus marginal costs here.
There is no cost (other than your time, very marginal indeed) to invite a billion people to your starbase map to buy stuff. No cost at all.
The actual "cost" is entirely front-loaded and has already been paid for. What resources it took to get there are economically irrelevant.
I think a more apt analogy would be reproductions of art works. The cost to create a reproduction is minimal and the original painting is not affected so they should be sold at cost right? Another example, after you've built your house you could open it up to others to live in since you have extra space. It costs you nothing since you already built it right?
But, I think everyone is looking at it wrong. Charging to access a starbase stores is not a product, its a service. The greatest value it has is opportunity cost. You could get a fleet to T5, but considering the resources and time involved you're better off simply paying someone else for access if you're not looking for a long term fleet home.
While simply inviting someone over costs you nothing, the service they're receiving DOES have a value. A value that can bring back at least a pittance of the resources invested in the starbase.
Besides, if both parties agree to the exchange what does it affect anyone? Maybe if you look at ti from the "hurting small fleets" angle? I can certainly see how someone spending 10+ mil EC that would otherwise have gone to a small base's progression would be considered as a "loss". But that only works uner the assumption that somehow those 10+ Mil EC somehow already belonged to the aforementioned small base, a pretty bizarre notion.
But all those resources have already been spent. People seem to have a huge issue with the idea of sunk versus marginal costs here.
There is no cost (other than your time, very marginal indeed) to invite a billion people to your starbase map to buy stuff. No cost at all.
The actual "cost" is entirely front-loaded and has already been paid for. What resources it took to get there are economically irrelevant.
I shouldn't have to pay for a product because the costs for R&D, manufacturing and marketing have already been paid for, so I shouldn't have to pay for anything right?
I shouldn't have to pay for a house because its already been built, and the thousands upon thousands of pounds that went into building it are already paid for so I should get it for free right?
Do you have any idea how your post can be applied to anything and just how idiotic it sounds?
I am the Hand of Dear Leader, and I am here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
"No," says the man in San Francisco, "it belongs to the poor."
"No," says the man in Hathon, "it belongs to the Prophets."
"No," says the man in First City, "it belongs to the honorable."
I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...
Dental.
A fleet where the child would not fear the ERPist,
where the firefighter would not be bound by the pubbie,
where the great would not be constrained by the small.
And with the sweat of your brow, Dental can become your fleet, as well.
honestly the thought of selling access to a starbase sickens me its not suprising that people are selling access to their goods. you see the same thing in almost every MMO out there.
~Temporal Empire does not condone the selling of fleet goods or ships be glad this is not a open pvp game~:D:D:D
honestly the thought of selling access to a starbase sickens me its not suprising that people are selling access to their goods. you see the same thing in almost every MMO out there.
~Temporal Empire does not condone the selling of fleet goods or ships be glad this is not a open pvp game~:D:D:D
Why does it sicken you exactly? Do you get sick whenever you purchase anything from a shop?
Furthermore, having checked out your fleet and ship on the Gateway, I think we are not the ones who should be glad this is not an open PvP game. Just sayin'.
~Temporal Empire does not condone the selling of fleet goods or ships be glad this is not a open pvp game~:D:D:D
Oh man, it's a good thing the fleet with four active members doesn't condone something that makes perfect sense considering how much is invested in getting to the stage where you can sell tier 5 access.
And why should we be glad it's not an open pvp game, is it because you and your three fleet members would not condone being blown up by bigger fleets a lot?
But you know what? I guess it doesn't matter now does it? By being allowed to visit their studios Cryptic has pretty much signed off on you and your fleet haven't they? They've said in deed what most of us have suspected for years. They're not going to stop you. They're not going to correct you. You won. After long last, you really, really won. STO is yours and no one is going to do a thing about it. Congratulations.
The only time I take offense to fleets selling access is when the person sending the invite pockets all the money, and doesn't deposit any of it in the fleet bank.
Well I am glad I got a laugh of someone atleast also thank you for reminding me about the gateway I forgot it even existed also how do you check out other ships on the gateway just wondering
Those are just my personal views if you want to EZ join the KDF dont spam the hubs with your futile attempt to earn a fast buck at other peoples expense granted this is just a game but still if you take the time to build a fleet with all the perks dont pimp it out to lazy people.
regarding my fleet size you would be surprised what can be done with a small number of people granted I can see why the concept of small numbers can be scary to kdf space pvp'ers due those horrendous ridges on their foreheads constricting blood flow to their brains and those ugly melee weps most of the carry.
Have fun breaking down what I have said here hope to see you all ingame
If that's how they want to be, more power to them. These guys have probably gone through the fleet system almost single-handedly to have made the decision to do that, there are plenty fleets that don't do that, who have used the collective effort of their members. At the end of the day, it costs a lot, and can have been supported with rl money, so why shouldn't they ask for something in return?
[Edit]
Ah, I did forget this aspect:
'When you buy from a fleet store, the provisions that are reduced are those of the fleet you are in, not the fleet who owns the store. '
Thank you Momaw.
But, I fall back on my original point, find a fleet with people who won't charge.
Comments
It is something games with an economy demand in certain doses.
Quit applying real world ethics to a game construct.
People aren't what make ethics. Situations are.
And the situation here is designed to promote a measured amount of greed.
I say this, in this case, as a consumer of the service to get a Romulan embassy costume, not as anyone who's even profited from it.
Sure call it greed on the part of the fleet-holders, but it is ALSO greed on the new guy that purposefully wants to join a Tier 5 fleet. Oh you didn't know they were tier 5 and had a complete base with access to all the doffs and gear and shipyards and stuff? Right.
They want to benefit from the timesink that the fleet participated in to get their resources to the level they're at. Wanting to skip the grind is entirely understandable, but its not more noble.
They aren't charging for sign ups (although, again, no problem if they do; don't like it -- don't join). They're charging for store access.
In my experience, it's generally around 1.5 million EC (a day or two's grinding) for the ability to use a higher tier fleet's store access, with you providing everything else (dilithium, fleet credits, fleet provisions).
If you don't like it, get your own fleet's level up.
Well, this is kind of a cute thread. Can't really speak for the other fleets here? But we're a 2-man fleet that got to T5 shipyard before all these other scrub fleets, and have been doing a reputable, honest job of selling ships since the day Dominion lockboxes came out. It was a lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of obnoxious expenses. But hey, we did it.
At least in our case there's no working class fleet members to have stolen from, no pilfered profits kept away from those who deserve it. Just me, my partner in crime, and a beautiful Scrooge McDuck style money bank full of EC. A lot of which did get invested back into the starbase, shared with said partner in crime, etc.
So hey. If you want to buy a ship without fearing you're working for a scummy fleet that's advertising stupidly low prices and charging its own members for access too, and want a name that's been trusted at this for several months now, come see us at 1st Aquarius Division in game. :V
Over here is a long running thread on us and our trustworthiness, in fact!
1.) You don't set a price tag on gratuity.
2.) Gratuity comes after a service provided, not as a prerequisite for receiving it.
Key differences.
Absolutely. If you don't like the price, don't pay it. I just think it's important for people to realize how disproportionate the costs are e.g. you pay millions for a service but it took nothing to extend that service to you. It might factor into some people's decision making process.
You are to be commended on reaching a feat with only two members.
However, try not to be insulting of other fleets that have also reached T5, and are jumping on the bandwagon
hey PM me in game @polie I would like to see about getting those elite tholian fighters.
Hi thanks for your interest. My fleet is not selling access to our T5 stores, so you best bet is to get in touch with one of the other fleets that are.
Quick tip, if you guys are not selling access to your fleet, don't show what you have done in your signature.
quoted for truth.
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
Most people do not have the time and resources to grind their way to a T5 base, and contrary to the commonly-held belief among those who have good groups and fleets, good groups and fleets do not rain from the sky, and even the best may not have sufficient interest in getting to the T5 base. In fact, some people like to simply play by themselves, or to simply play WITH other people, not getting into a regular group with them. Furthermore, some people do not want to wait several years (literally) for a chance at a T5 starbase ship. As such, those who are charging for it are providing a service to, frankly, most of the game, especially those who want nothing to do with fleets, as should be their right. This is a Massively Multiplayer Online game, not a Massively Codependent Online game.
Considering the sheer amount of resources sunk into starbases, I think it's entirely reasonable that they would sell access to their facilities. Yes, it's expensive, but that should not be much of a surprise. If you want to attack something it should be the starbase system itself and its ship distribution mechanism, which I dislike a good bit, but that ship has sailed.
Disproportionate? Let me ask you this: how much refined dlilithium, fleet marks, fleet credits and EC do you think had to go into getting a fleet up to tier 5? If the people who have sunk all those resources to get their fleet up to tier 5 want to charge you to use the their fleet store; then so be it. If you don't like it; you can sink in all the resources it takes to get your fleet to tier 5 yourself. Maybe when you have spent all that; maybe then you'll change your tune about not charging anything...
But all those resources have already been spent. People seem to have a huge issue with the idea of sunk versus marginal costs here.
There is no cost (other than your time, very marginal indeed) to invite a billion people to your starbase map to buy stuff. No cost at all.
The actual "cost" is entirely front-loaded and has already been paid for. What resources it took to get there are economically irrelevant.
I think a more apt analogy would be reproductions of art works. The cost to create a reproduction is minimal and the original painting is not affected so they should be sold at cost right? Another example, after you've built your house you could open it up to others to live in since you have extra space. It costs you nothing since you already built it right?
But, I think everyone is looking at it wrong. Charging to access a starbase stores is not a product, its a service. The greatest value it has is opportunity cost. You could get a fleet to T5, but considering the resources and time involved you're better off simply paying someone else for access if you're not looking for a long term fleet home.
While simply inviting someone over costs you nothing, the service they're receiving DOES have a value. A value that can bring back at least a pittance of the resources invested in the starbase.
Besides, if both parties agree to the exchange what does it affect anyone? Maybe if you look at ti from the "hurting small fleets" angle? I can certainly see how someone spending 10+ mil EC that would otherwise have gone to a small base's progression would be considered as a "loss". But that only works uner the assumption that somehow those 10+ Mil EC somehow already belonged to the aforementioned small base, a pretty bizarre notion.
And what if they spent those costs in expectation of making a profit?
You seem to be abusing the idea of sunk costs here.
If I pay up front for 1,000 pounds of chocolate in a warehouse, by this logic, I should give it away. Because I already spent the money on it.
The cost in this case is only "sunk" if you tell people they can't recover it.
I shouldn't have to pay for a product because the costs for R&D, manufacturing and marketing have already been paid for, so I shouldn't have to pay for anything right?
I shouldn't have to pay for a house because its already been built, and the thousands upon thousands of pounds that went into building it are already paid for so I should get it for free right?
Do you have any idea how your post can be applied to anything and just how idiotic it sounds?
What an absolute economic parasite you are.
"No," says the man in San Francisco, "it belongs to the poor."
"No," says the man in Hathon, "it belongs to the Prophets."
"No," says the man in First City, "it belongs to the honorable."
I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...
Dental.
A fleet where the child would not fear the ERPist,
where the firefighter would not be bound by the pubbie,
where the great would not be constrained by the small.
And with the sweat of your brow, Dental can become your fleet, as well.
Shutup Wesley: First In Everything
~Temporal Empire does not condone the selling of fleet goods or ships be glad this is not a open pvp game~:D:D:D
Why does it sicken you exactly? Do you get sick whenever you purchase anything from a shop?
Furthermore, having checked out your fleet and ship on the Gateway, I think we are not the ones who should be glad this is not an open PvP game. Just sayin'.
Oh man, it's a good thing the fleet with four active members doesn't condone something that makes perfect sense considering how much is invested in getting to the stage where you can sell tier 5 access.
And why should we be glad it's not an open pvp game, is it because you and your three fleet members would not condone being blown up by bigger fleets a lot?
Still haven't explained why people selling access sickens you I see.
regarding my fleet size you would be surprised what can be done with a small number of people granted I can see why the concept of small numbers can be scary to kdf space pvp'ers due those horrendous ridges on their foreheads constricting blood flow to their brains and those ugly melee weps most of the carry.
Have fun breaking down what I have said here hope to see you all ingame
[Edit]
Ah, I did forget this aspect:
'When you buy from a fleet store, the provisions that are reduced are those of the fleet you are in, not the fleet who owns the store. '
Thank you Momaw.
But, I fall back on my original point, find a fleet with people who won't charge.