I know it's hard to imagine, but there are people out there interested in community building.
Still waiting for you to offer that you're doing that for free on ESD; no point in just saying that you'll do it... Let's see if that generosity and community building is for real. I'm the Queen of France, see..
Join the Public Service chat channel and see for yourself.
You, my dear; have my respect. You put your money, as it is, where your mouth is. I might not agree with your points on this subject; but I do have to respect you as a person.
Actually minimum is "Basic Ship Provisioning" that is 200k Dilithium, that is 40k per provision, about 5 days of refining.
The minimum I'm discussing would be the minimum EC cost to turn a profit on the sale of your ship provisions. So sure, "Basic Ship Provisioning" may have the lowest cost at 200k Dilithium, since it also has the smallest reward, it totals out to the highest cost per provision.
You can read the EULA for PWE here. Read up on Section 5 and also item J in Section 10.
Feel free to continue believing you own anything in the game though.
First off, Section 5 deals with mostly their IP's and copyright, and their rights dealing with those services/items/games/software/ect. thus being their property. So for example if you offered to sell starbase provisions for real life money then you would be going against that. Which in most if not all cases, deals go down with EC (which is IN-GAME CURRENCY). Which I don't believe goes against the EULA, since it's all in-game currency payments. Since if it did, the exchange would be in violation by mere existence.
As for Item J in Section 10, yes fraud is a obvious no-no. So if you pay someone for something and it was a scam then they are going against the EULA. That really has nothing to do with if fleets should sell anything, but more if they are scamming people (Which is a whole other matter).
Section 5 is for those who feel they own something in the game because they "worked for it". They don't. As for Item J in Section 10, this is for those out there who are charging tens of millions in "sign up fees" then requiring those people to contribute into the millions of fleet credits and never allowing them access to the fleet store.
In simple terms for section 5, then yeah. As for your item J Section 10 reasoning, I don't think the "sign up fees" were the big issue in the main subject of fleets selling stuff. I think fleets that do have contribution requirements are for actually joining a fleet. The join fee's were for people to join a fleet, get instant access to what they wanted, buy it, then leave.
If there are fleets that have join fee's, and contribution requirements at the same time then I agree with the argument that's too much. At the same time, it would be hard to say that's scamming a person if in the end they still get what they wanted. I think if any fleet has a join fee for merely joining, it would be obvious to not join that fleet.
Yes, I'm not saying that charging a fee to join a fleet or a fee to access the fleet stores violate any EULA rules. I was trying to address those who are charging these fees and then never allowing access to the fleet store. That, at least to me, is scamming another player with a promise that's never delivered.
Yes, absolutely. Any one who does that should be banned from the game, IMO. That sort of behavior drives away honest customers.
Yes, I was including Section 5 in general terms. Sorry if that did not get communicated clearly.
Yes, I'm not saying that charging a fee to join a fleet or a fee to access the fleet stores violate any EULA rules. I was trying to address those who are charging these fees and then never allowing access to the fleet store. That, at least to me, is scamming another player with a promise that's never delivered.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying people should not charge fees to join a fleet or to use a fleet store. People are free to run their fleets any way they like. I don't agree with the practice, but they aren't breaking any rules so long as they provide what was promised.
The whole back-and-forth is getting kind of blurred with those who think charging in and of itself is a scam; which it isn't - and those who think charging for a service and not delivering is a scam; which is.
And the main point of this argument that has spanned several pages is that some people think that they are entitled to walk into a tier 5 fleet starbase without having contributed anything at all and buy whatever they please without having to make any kind of compensation for all the work that has been done previously to get that base to tier 5. And, even worse, some think they should be able to do this using that fleet's stockpile of provisions too; which are finite and not very easy to get. To me, you're being a **** to expect that you're entitled to that.
If some fleets offer that as a service for free; good on them and I really do hope your service doesn't get abused (and I'm sure you'd probably have mechanisms in place to prevent that). If some fleets want to charge for that service; then that is their right. You don't want to pay: find a fleet that'll let you do it for free, join a fleet and actually become a contributing member or get your own starbase to tier 5 by investing far more than a measley 10-20 million EC.
The funny thing is that this whole argument will likely be resolved in a few months by Cryptic.
They seemed inclined, last I checked, to make it impossible to buy from other fleet's stores by simply visiting them (and AT THAT POINT bases will be a sunk cost; they aren't yet but will be then) and will create a Fleet Alliance system... which will probably involve allowing use of allied fleet's resources but at that point, you'll probably be using that other fleet's provisioning, subject to that other fleet's standards (which may include participation), and -- I suspect -- will wind up paying Cryptic in some form to get use of an allied fleet's resources. So it probably will be resolved and it probably won't be free.
We're debating a system that will be phased out in favor of one with standardized costs and no free access.
And the knowledge that prices will change in the future will likely drive what people charge now, the same with any service or commodity.
oh get off your high horse. its not all that complicated or convoluted.
it costs a lot of ec, dil and time to build a fleet to tier five.
Its not a scam.
Get over yourself.
If you want t5 weapons or ships or whatever 'n don't want to wait this is what you do.
If you'd asked them for membership instead then that's fine too but don't expect to jump right in 'n have access too all the latest gear. very few fleets run like that 'n those that do probably do something else you'd consider a 'scam' to have it to give away like that.
When was the last time you bought 90 security duty officers or medical doffs to fill your base project? how much did that cost?
The funny thing is that this whole argument will likely be resolved in a few months by Cryptic.
you mean they will finally ban everyone who try to force you play the game the way they want?You really mean they will ban the op because he wants fleets to not sell provisions?
you mean they will finally ban everyone who try to force you play the game the way they want?You really mean they will ban the op because he wants fleets to not sell provisions?
Nah. I disagree with the OP but I fully expect Cryptic will come down with a system that tells us how to play the game, isn't what either side in this thread is arguing, and associates a cost with using other starbases' stores that sinks more currency from the game.
So while I disagree with the OP, I also see the debate as largely futile.
How is this a scam? If someone asks to go to a fleet base to buy items from the store and agrees to pay x amount of EC or to donate items why would you have an issue with that? If a smaller fleet isn't able to provide tier 5 items and a member can get them via another fleet then that's a good thing since players wouldn't have to leave their current fleet to get what they need. The smaller fleet wins by keeping members and the bigger fleet benefits by obtaining EC or items.
"Live Long and Prosper but always carry a fully charged phaser, just in case!". Arrr'ow
If you want rules on how to play a game go play chess .That one has rules.
people should not be allowed to sell their stuffs because you say so *facepalm*
It's not what I WANT. It's what I EXPECT. There's a difference here.
If you follow dev interviews, Stahl has talked about stripping the ability of people to buy from starbase stores and talked about fleet alliances as a means of gaining access to other starbase's stores.
I see reasons for it from their perspective. I disagree with it as a player. I can see different sides to this and I generally expect the developers' side to win out unless people really persuade them with counter-ideas or convince them of the need to compromise.
Its mostly speculation but I believe it was Stahl's last STOked interview where he:
- Talked about removing the ability to buy from starbases you're visiting (which they haven't had time to do with LoR).
- Talked about Fleet Alliances as a means of gaining access to allied fleet's stores.
The idea of a cost attached is my supposition but it sounds to me like an intensive enough solution, ie. one that would take major labor from Cryptic, that Cryptic will probably try to make money from it in some fashion in order to cover the labor costs.
Well, I personally find it quiet distasteful to charge people trying to join your fleet, regardless of how much dilithium, UNLESS that EC is going straight into the fleet bank for everyone to use. More often than not though, this isn't the case as there are a few fleet leaders out there that want to keep it all for themselves. My starbase is only Tier 1, but even if I was large enough to get to Tier 5 in a reasonable amount of time, I wouldn't charge members, or require anything of them. OP, I hope that you find a good fleet that treats their members with respect.
Well, I personally find it quiet distasteful to charge people trying to join your fleet, regardless of how much dilithium, UNLESS that EC is going straight into the fleet bank for everyone to use. More often than not though, this isn't the case as there are a few fleet leaders out there that want to keep it all for themselves. My starbase is only Tier 1, but even if I was large enough to get to Tier 5 in a reasonable amount of time, I wouldn't charge members, or require anything of them. OP, I hope that you find a good fleet that treats their members with respect.
I'm sure you have evidence of them just pocketing the money? Or keeping more than what they've donated to the fleet? The minimum amount to complete the fleet starbase:
907,140 fleet marks
20,535,750 dilithium (plus 2,800,000 for limited time projects)
14,503 duty officers
459,352,750 energy credits (using base costs for commodities)
52,080,000 expertise
112,500 data samples
955 particle traces
165 bridge officer candidates
459 MILLION EC. That's a lot of money, more so when you count the cost of all those doffs and boffs and particle traces. Even spread across 50 member accounts each guy will wind up donating tens of millions of EC.
*numbers courtesy of phryxianhero (sorry if i spelled the name wrong)
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
Comments
OMG!!! :eek:
Not a community ANYTHING but THAT!!! :eek:
Still waiting for you to offer that you're doing that for free on ESD; no point in just saying that you'll do it... Let's see if that generosity and community building is for real. I'm the Queen of France, see..
You, my dear; have my respect. You put your money, as it is, where your mouth is. I might not agree with your points on this subject; but I do have to respect you as a person.
The minimum I'm discussing would be the minimum EC cost to turn a profit on the sale of your ship provisions. So sure, "Basic Ship Provisioning" may have the lowest cost at 200k Dilithium, since it also has the smallest reward, it totals out to the highest cost per provision.
First off, Section 5 deals with mostly their IP's and copyright, and their rights dealing with those services/items/games/software/ect. thus being their property. So for example if you offered to sell starbase provisions for real life money then you would be going against that. Which in most if not all cases, deals go down with EC (which is IN-GAME CURRENCY). Which I don't believe goes against the EULA, since it's all in-game currency payments. Since if it did, the exchange would be in violation by mere existence.
As for Item J in Section 10, yes fraud is a obvious no-no. So if you pay someone for something and it was a scam then they are going against the EULA. That really has nothing to do with if fleets should sell anything, but more if they are scamming people (Which is a whole other matter).
In simple terms for section 5, then yeah. As for your item J Section 10 reasoning, I don't think the "sign up fees" were the big issue in the main subject of fleets selling stuff. I think fleets that do have contribution requirements are for actually joining a fleet. The join fee's were for people to join a fleet, get instant access to what they wanted, buy it, then leave.
If there are fleets that have join fee's, and contribution requirements at the same time then I agree with the argument that's too much. At the same time, it would be hard to say that's scamming a person if in the end they still get what they wanted. I think if any fleet has a join fee for merely joining, it would be obvious to not join that fleet.
Yes, absolutely. Any one who does that should be banned from the game, IMO. That sort of behavior drives away honest customers.
The whole back-and-forth is getting kind of blurred with those who think charging in and of itself is a scam; which it isn't - and those who think charging for a service and not delivering is a scam; which is.
And the main point of this argument that has spanned several pages is that some people think that they are entitled to walk into a tier 5 fleet starbase without having contributed anything at all and buy whatever they please without having to make any kind of compensation for all the work that has been done previously to get that base to tier 5. And, even worse, some think they should be able to do this using that fleet's stockpile of provisions too; which are finite and not very easy to get. To me, you're being a **** to expect that you're entitled to that.
If some fleets offer that as a service for free; good on them and I really do hope your service doesn't get abused (and I'm sure you'd probably have mechanisms in place to prevent that). If some fleets want to charge for that service; then that is their right. You don't want to pay: find a fleet that'll let you do it for free, join a fleet and actually become a contributing member or get your own starbase to tier 5 by investing far more than a measley 10-20 million EC.
They seemed inclined, last I checked, to make it impossible to buy from other fleet's stores by simply visiting them (and AT THAT POINT bases will be a sunk cost; they aren't yet but will be then) and will create a Fleet Alliance system... which will probably involve allowing use of allied fleet's resources but at that point, you'll probably be using that other fleet's provisioning, subject to that other fleet's standards (which may include participation), and -- I suspect -- will wind up paying Cryptic in some form to get use of an allied fleet's resources. So it probably will be resolved and it probably won't be free.
We're debating a system that will be phased out in favor of one with standardized costs and no free access.
And the knowledge that prices will change in the future will likely drive what people charge now, the same with any service or commodity.
it costs a lot of ec, dil and time to build a fleet to tier five.
Its not a scam.
Get over yourself.
If you want t5 weapons or ships or whatever 'n don't want to wait this is what you do.
If you'd asked them for membership instead then that's fine too but don't expect to jump right in 'n have access too all the latest gear. very few fleets run like that 'n those that do probably do something else you'd consider a 'scam' to have it to give away like that.
When was the last time you bought 90 security duty officers or medical doffs to fill your base project? how much did that cost?
u know what, nv f m.
yer dumb. *facepalm*
you mean they will finally ban everyone who try to force you play the game the way they want?You really mean they will ban the op because he wants fleets to not sell provisions?
Nah. I disagree with the OP but I fully expect Cryptic will come down with a system that tells us how to play the game, isn't what either side in this thread is arguing, and associates a cost with using other starbases' stores that sinks more currency from the game.
So while I disagree with the OP, I also see the debate as largely futile.
If you want rules on how to play a game go play chess .That one has rules.
people should not be allowed to sell their stuffs because you say so *facepalm*
Co-Leader of Serenity's Grasp
It's not what I WANT. It's what I EXPECT. There's a difference here.
If you follow dev interviews, Stahl has talked about stripping the ability of people to buy from starbase stores and talked about fleet alliances as a means of gaining access to other starbase's stores.
I see reasons for it from their perspective. I disagree with it as a player. I can see different sides to this and I generally expect the developers' side to win out unless people really persuade them with counter-ideas or convince them of the need to compromise.
Its mostly speculation but I believe it was Stahl's last STOked interview where he:
- Talked about removing the ability to buy from starbases you're visiting (which they haven't had time to do with LoR).
- Talked about Fleet Alliances as a means of gaining access to allied fleet's stores.
The idea of a cost attached is my supposition but it sounds to me like an intensive enough solution, ie. one that would take major labor from Cryptic, that Cryptic will probably try to make money from it in some fashion in order to cover the labor costs.
Rest in Peace Brothers
I'm sure you have evidence of them just pocketing the money? Or keeping more than what they've donated to the fleet? The minimum amount to complete the fleet starbase:
907,140 fleet marks
20,535,750 dilithium (plus 2,800,000 for limited time projects)
14,503 duty officers
459,352,750 energy credits (using base costs for commodities)
52,080,000 expertise
112,500 data samples
955 particle traces
165 bridge officer candidates
459 MILLION EC. That's a lot of money, more so when you count the cost of all those doffs and boffs and particle traces. Even spread across 50 member accounts each guy will wind up donating tens of millions of EC.
*numbers courtesy of phryxianhero (sorry if i spelled the name wrong)
Let the stupid suffer