With Klingons it no so much "If it works don't fix it" as it is "If It still works don't replace it" Klingon society revolves around it's military, which is not a very good situation economically. They're using a lot of these old ships simply because it's cheaper to do so. Like Russians during the Cold War using diesel powered ships for a large proportion of it's submarine fleet because diesels are cheaper to build and maintain than nuclear powered ships.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
The Federation Council has proven time and time again that they are more or less incompetent idiots that would throw away Starfleet if given half a chance by the other mayor powers surrounding them.
voyager picked a fight with a tactical cube & got away after disabling it(or was it some other cube they disabled) with their on-board plot devices.
if they can do that to a cube then an exe or ambassador are easy meat along with a shrimpy little defiant that barely qualifies for classification as a corvette.
but whatever, sisco's defiant had its armoury full of plot devices too.
Note Voyager had help from a Borg Sphere and never actually disabled it. and also note the first round Voyager took a beating.
Something people are forgetting is the Ambassador was built during a long period of peace for the Federation. As opposed to the Excelsior which was built and conceived when the Federation was still in a cold war/total war with the Klingon Empire. This is also brought out in TNG when Picard is talking to the bar tender, and he mentions that it was a good thing, that q brought the confrontation with the borg early opposed to later. Even Picard admitted that the Federation/starfleet had gotten complaisant. I think that complacency is brought out perfectly with the Ambassador class.
As other posters said sto is so not canon these days its not even funny. Example the Defiant class of ships were fast produced, expendable, low crewed warships. Translation they were built by starfleet to fill in the gaps where needed, but they were NEVER intended to solo cruisers, battleships, or cubes. As everyone is aware of in sto they can. The bop is similar to the defiant in that aspect. Also why every klingon house in star trek lore has bops to spare. In lore they are designed to take on ships of there own class or have good maneuverability not capital ships.
Something people are forgetting is the Ambassador was built during a long period of peace for the Federation. As opposed to the Excelsior which was built and conceived when the Federation was still in a cold war/total war with the Klingon Empire. This is also brought out in TNG when Picard is talking to the bar tender, and he mentions that it was a good thing, that q brought the confrontation with the borg early opposed to later. Even Picard admitted that the Federation/starfleet had gotten complaisant. I think that complacency is brought out perfectly with the Ambassador class.
As other posters said sto is so not canon these days its not even funny. Example the Defiant class of ships were fast produced, expendable, low crewed warships. Translation they were built by starfleet to fill in the gaps where needed, but they were NEVER intended to solo cruisers, battleships, or cubes. As everyone is aware of in sto they can. The bop is similar to the defiant in that aspect. Also why every klingon house in star trek lore has bops to spare. In lore they are designed to take on ships of there own class or have good maneuverability not capital ships.
What about the Dominion War?...Surely that couldn't be classified as a time of "peace"???
The ambassador was made during the time after the Federation/starfleet had been allies with the Klingon Empire, and before the Galaxy class starships were made. This was a time of mostly peace. The Dominion war happened way after the Ambassador class starships were made.
What about the Dominion War?...Surely that couldn't be classified as a time of "peace"???
The Dominion War takes place in the TNG era, where the Ambassador is 35 years old and replaced by the Galaxy - and even the Galaxy is filled to the brim with civilian families, so it's safe to assume the Federation considered itself in a relatively peaceful time leading up to the Dominion War.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The ambassador was made during the time after the Federation/starfleet had been allies with the Klingon Empire, and before the Galaxy class starships were made. This was a time of mostly peace. The Dominion war happened way after the Ambassador class starships were made.
The Ambassador was the reason the Klingons eventually allied with the Federation. That whole Yesterday's Enterprise episode covers that. But yeah, the KDF were less hostile to the Federation - probably due to whatever aid the Feds gave them for the Praxis explosion.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The Ambassador was a direct replacement for the Excelsior. And it proved to be a test bed for future ship designs. Since it had phaser strips where older ships didn't. Newer style nacelles that later ships will have. And many other features. I'm sure there was many built during their lifespan.
Now for why they didn't show it often. Money, time, and other factors. Since the shows are limited on stuff. Plus they already had stock footage of the Galaxy with the Excelsior. Which most of TNG days was using models. TOS and TNG used a lot of stock footage to save time and money. Later during DS9 where CGI came more effective. I guess by then, they kinda forgot the ship, or they already had enough ships to play with. So it would be easier placement to create fleets.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
A lot of the reasons for the Ambassadors limited screen time have already been brought up. The limited budget of the show, the existence of the old movie models, etc.
Another reason though is the ships appearance. A general rule of thumb that the series likes to stick by is that the heroes ship needs to stand out and be instantly recognizable at a glance. When they made First Contact's space battle with its cgi fleet, they requested that the Federation fleet be made up of ships that didn't look like the Enterprise. Which is how we got the Saber, Norway, and Akira designs.
The Galaxy and Excelsior designs don't look much alike so there is no problem showing them together. However the Ambassador was a kitbash that used parts from the Galaxy so they share a very similar general look.
The other thing you have to remember, and I think sto/star trek captures this well, what is made depends on what is going on at the time. A good RL example would be world war 1, trench warfare comes about, then comes the tank to counter. Same in the star trek universe. TOS constitution class a tightly packed battle cruiser used for exploration. Then comes the Excelsior, I guess you could say a battleship, conceived at a time when relations with the Klingon Empire was down hill. The list goes on, of course I sort of already made this point. Even sto you can tell this with the uniforms. The default uniform for ESD personnel is rugged military like. The TNG uniform is plain not rugged built around being on a ship most of the time.
The Enterprise C managed to engage 4 romulan warbirds in combat for several minutes.
Much longer then any excelsior class vessel could have done.
I would think by STO's time though, since relations were "hostile" with KDF and others, that one of the Ambassador refits would have provided her with more "teeth". Devs slightly gimped her when making the Excelsior superior to not only her, but the Galaxy(s) and even the Sovy.
If the best players in the game each took an Ambassador (with all purple XII), a Galaxy (with all purple XII), a Sovy (with purple XII), and an Excelsior (with all purple XII), which one would be the last one standing? Based off of the maximum potential of each of the 4 ships...I think the conclusion can be made as to which ship is standing in the end....the oldest one.
Again, let's keep in mind that the canon versions of the Excelsior and Ambassador are the T3 versions - the versions weaker than the Galaxy. All the T5 Refits/Retrofits are outside of canon and are whatever Cryptic wants them to be - and whatever CBS will allow them to be.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Because in the actual star trek universe, not this game, the Ambassador is more powerful the the Excelsior. This game doesn't portray many of the ships very accurately. The best example is the Jem'hadar attack ship. In game it's the most powerful escort, on the show it was cannon fodder.
Because in the actual star trek universe, not this game, the Ambassador is more powerful the the Excelsior. This game doesn't portray many of the ships very accurately. The best example is the Jem'hadar attack ship. In game it's the most powerful escort, on the show it was cannon fodder.
Hehehehe.
Before reading on, you guys should note that I am horribly biased against the Excelsior. I hate that ship and think she's terrible looking and just a horrible ship in general as far as canon and other such sources are concerned. Albeit in game I will admit she is quite capable.
Well let's just go over this shall we. As cruisers go, they are majorly frakked up. For starters, you have the Excel, a 100+ year old ship, that in STO can out-fly and out-gun virtually every other cruiser. The only ship that can keep up with the fleet excel in damage is the fleet Imperial. However that requires a Tier V shipyard. But the Sovereign, Galaxy, Ambassador, and the Odyssey class ships, are all more advanced than the excelsior, are newer, and yet, in game, are not as powerful.
So... yeah. As someone else stated earlier in the thread, someone had a hard-on for the excel and made her more powerful than most other cruisers for no reason other than they liked her. It makes no logical sense. But oh wells.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Did you actually have a point? Or do you make it a habit of jumping straight into a thread and randomly insulting everyone who has ever disagreed with one of your unsupported concepts?
Wut? How was his statement unsupported? It's widely acknowledged that A) Plot Armor is a thing (it's even an official TVTrope!), and that Star Trek is particularly susceptible to its use (hence 'canon,' even without STO, being completely loopy in terms of relative strengths) and finally that C) the writers on DS:9 LOVED the stuff. Anything a main character was in got to use it, and certainly the Defiant took on the persona of a main character. I think even the captain's chair in that ship was made of plot armor.
____________________________________________________
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
Wut? How was his statement unsupported? It's widely acknowledged that A) Plot Armor is a thing (it's even an official TVTrope!), and that Star Trek is particularly susceptible to its use (hence 'canon,' even without STO, being completely loopy in terms of relative strengths) and finally that C) the writers on DS:9 LOVED the stuff. Anything a main character was in got to use it, and certainly the Defiant took on the persona of a main character. I think even the captain's chair in that ship was made of plot armor.
I believe he was responding to the personal attack in that post. The part about "should have read the name of the poster" rather then the plot armor part.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
wow I just now realized this......now that I think about it its glaring
note they could have been in other fleets. at DW there had to be about 10 Galaxys in service, maybe a little more. So in the fleets where there's no Galaxy an Ambassador could be there
Does anyone have information as to whether the Devs have any plans to make other Cruisers more on-par with the Fleet excelsior? like a better Galaxy, Ambassador, Sovy, etc.? Or, is there 0 chance of this happening? Has Gecko ever mentioned this?
These discussions are so fruitless because what we saw on screen in the TV series and movies was much more a function of budget and budget constraints and what the writers felt they could do (I like the term plot armor by the way). If budgets weren't an issue I suspect we would have seen contemporaries to the Galaxy in TNG rendezvousing to drop off the admiral of the week, vs. 50-70 year old cruisers or frigates doing the same job. But it is hard to justify that when they had perfectly good studio models of the Excelsior and Miranda laying around.
Now lets imagine that Starfleet is in fact a real military/exploration agency in a world that faces fairly rapid technological advances and one that physically is expanding. Baseline for baseline an Exclesior class ship first conceived and designed in the 2270s and 2280s will be less advanced, less capable, less of everything than the Ambassador that was conceived and designed in the 2320s and 2330s. That's 50 years of technological and operational advances.
Now I suspect Starfleet in their infinite wisdom understands they are in a world that faces massive technological advances and is physically advancing knows that it needs a ton of ships to provide for the defense of the Federation and exploration/diplomacy missions would have built in some expandability/upgradability to any given ship design. So an non-upgraded Excelsior with a 2290 build date is going to look and be capable of different stuff than say one with a 2320 build date. But ultimately there is a ceiling to how much you can upgrade a space frame. That new stuff may not fit or may not fit without cutting a giant hole in the hull of the ship. Even mission requirements may change significantly. While the Ambassador class was developed during a time of peace and expansion (and may have been biased in its fitting out for certain missions) would still likely represent a fairly significant leap over the baseline Excelsior in both offensive and defensive capabilities. Further the limits on what it could be refitted/upgraded to would likely be higher than an Excelsior as well.
Id like to point the voyager episode Prophecy, that old D7 that left Klingon space 80 years ago does damage to voyager not major damage but damage none the less, and Voyager stopped them by firing on them cloaked with no shields. Now what can we gather from this? Simple that Technology hasn't made any radical jumps Geordi says as much in Relics that most of the systems are quite similar to what Mr Scott already knew. Would a guy from the US Navy 80 years ago understand a single system on a modern navel vessel?
Lets examine some trek facts for a minute if you will. Starfleet went by leaps and bounds because there allies where already leaps and bounds ahead and it took several hundred years to get there. Also there is a point where technological gain does drop off, we are seeing that today as a matter of fact. It is quite forseeable that a ship from the 2280's isn't that outgunned compared to a ship from the 2270's. Remember Starfleet used Photon Torpedo in its same basic design for over a century now, phaser power as we can see is regulated by the warp core post 2271 as stated by Mr Scott. Arrays seem more able to handle angles better but banks may be just as potent when supplied the same power. Shields are the only thing we can really argue about, we know they got stronger but by how much is unknown and by what standard are they reinforced is it warp power or another matter all together? Also would it not be possible to outfit old ships with new shield generators and array's. The Lakota was and the exterior of the ship did not change so your guess is as good as mine
There were ambassador class starships in the dominion war just neverhad mmuch screen time. In Sacrifice of Angels DS9 when the fleet moves out there's an ambassador ship on the far right before the scene cuts. For some reason the ship was not widely used but in terms of ST canon it was there.
Id like to point the voyager episode Prophecy, that old D7 that left Klingon space 80 years ago does damage to voyager not major damage but damage none the less, and Voyager stopped them by firing on them cloaked with no shields. Now what can we gather from this? Simple that Technology hasn't made any radical jumps Geordi says as much in Relics that most of the systems are quite similar to what Mr Scott already knew. Would a guy from the US Navy 80 years ago understand a single system on a modern navel vessel?
Lets examine some trek facts for a minute if you will. Starfleet went by leaps and bounds because there allies where already leaps and bounds ahead and it took several hundred years to get there. Also there is a point where technological gain does drop off, we are seeing that today as a matter of fact. It is quite forseeable that a ship from the 2280's isn't that outgunned compared to a ship from the 2270's. Remember Starfleet used Photon Torpedo in its same basic design for over a century now, phaser power as we can see is regulated by the warp core post 2271 as stated by Mr Scott. Arrays seem more able to handle angles better but banks may be just as potent when supplied the same power. Shields are the only thing we can really argue about, we know they got stronger but by how much is unknown and by what standard are they reinforced is it warp power or another matter all together? Also would it not be possible to outfit old ships with new shield generators and array's. The Lakota was and the exterior of the ship did not change so your guess is as good as mine
Yes it shows the ships can be versitile but an Intrepid is about on par with excel. but Ambassador is stronger.
Comments
where do you get that lgic? Note the ONLY way for Voyager to do that is the 25th upgrades
The Federation Council has proven time and time again that they are more or less incompetent idiots that would throw away Starfleet if given half a chance by the other mayor powers surrounding them.
Note Voyager had help from a Borg Sphere and never actually disabled it. and also note the first round Voyager took a beating.
As other posters said sto is so not canon these days its not even funny. Example the Defiant class of ships were fast produced, expendable, low crewed warships. Translation they were built by starfleet to fill in the gaps where needed, but they were NEVER intended to solo cruisers, battleships, or cubes. As everyone is aware of in sto they can. The bop is similar to the defiant in that aspect. Also why every klingon house in star trek lore has bops to spare. In lore they are designed to take on ships of there own class or have good maneuverability not capital ships.
What about the Dominion War?...Surely that couldn't be classified as a time of "peace"???
Now for why they didn't show it often. Money, time, and other factors. Since the shows are limited on stuff. Plus they already had stock footage of the Galaxy with the Excelsior. Which most of TNG days was using models. TOS and TNG used a lot of stock footage to save time and money. Later during DS9 where CGI came more effective. I guess by then, they kinda forgot the ship, or they already had enough ships to play with. So it would be easier placement to create fleets.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Another reason though is the ships appearance. A general rule of thumb that the series likes to stick by is that the heroes ship needs to stand out and be instantly recognizable at a glance. When they made First Contact's space battle with its cgi fleet, they requested that the Federation fleet be made up of ships that didn't look like the Enterprise. Which is how we got the Saber, Norway, and Akira designs.
The Galaxy and Excelsior designs don't look much alike so there is no problem showing them together. However the Ambassador was a kitbash that used parts from the Galaxy so they share a very similar general look.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-C)
The Enterprise C managed to engage 4 romulan warbirds in combat for several minutes.
Much longer then any excelsior class vessel could have done.
[/SIGPIC]
And to top it off...he's actually admitted that! (well, using different wording)
I would think by STO's time though, since relations were "hostile" with KDF and others, that one of the Ambassador refits would have provided her with more "teeth". Devs slightly gimped her when making the Excelsior superior to not only her, but the Galaxy(s) and even the Sovy.
If the best players in the game each took an Ambassador (with all purple XII), a Galaxy (with all purple XII), a Sovy (with purple XII), and an Excelsior (with all purple XII), which one would be the last one standing? Based off of the maximum potential of each of the 4 ships...I think the conclusion can be made as to which ship is standing in the end....the oldest one.
worthy of being quoted for truth.
/thread
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
Hehehehe.
Before reading on, you guys should note that I am horribly biased against the Excelsior. I hate that ship and think she's terrible looking and just a horrible ship in general as far as canon and other such sources are concerned. Albeit in game I will admit she is quite capable.
Well let's just go over this shall we. As cruisers go, they are majorly frakked up. For starters, you have the Excel, a 100+ year old ship, that in STO can out-fly and out-gun virtually every other cruiser. The only ship that can keep up with the fleet excel in damage is the fleet Imperial. However that requires a Tier V shipyard. But the Sovereign, Galaxy, Ambassador, and the Odyssey class ships, are all more advanced than the excelsior, are newer, and yet, in game, are not as powerful.
So... yeah. As someone else stated earlier in the thread, someone had a hard-on for the excel and made her more powerful than most other cruisers for no reason other than they liked her. It makes no logical sense. But oh wells.
wow I just now realized this......now that I think about it its glaring
Wut? How was his statement unsupported? It's widely acknowledged that A) Plot Armor is a thing (it's even an official TVTrope!), and that
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
note they could have been in other fleets. at DW there had to be about 10 Galaxys in service, maybe a little more. So in the fleets where there's no Galaxy an Ambassador could be there
Id like to point the voyager episode Prophecy, that old D7 that left Klingon space 80 years ago does damage to voyager not major damage but damage none the less, and Voyager stopped them by firing on them cloaked with no shields. Now what can we gather from this? Simple that Technology hasn't made any radical jumps Geordi says as much in Relics that most of the systems are quite similar to what Mr Scott already knew. Would a guy from the US Navy 80 years ago understand a single system on a modern navel vessel?
Lets examine some trek facts for a minute if you will. Starfleet went by leaps and bounds because there allies where already leaps and bounds ahead and it took several hundred years to get there. Also there is a point where technological gain does drop off, we are seeing that today as a matter of fact. It is quite forseeable that a ship from the 2280's isn't that outgunned compared to a ship from the 2270's. Remember Starfleet used Photon Torpedo in its same basic design for over a century now, phaser power as we can see is regulated by the warp core post 2271 as stated by Mr Scott. Arrays seem more able to handle angles better but banks may be just as potent when supplied the same power. Shields are the only thing we can really argue about, we know they got stronger but by how much is unknown and by what standard are they reinforced is it warp power or another matter all together? Also would it not be possible to outfit old ships with new shield generators and array's. The Lakota was and the exterior of the ship did not change so your guess is as good as mine
because a 3d model was never built
Yes it shows the ships can be versitile but an Intrepid is about on par with excel. but Ambassador is stronger.