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A plea for Adjudicatorhawk and any other Dev working on EPtX powers
toiva
Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
The current EPtX system on Tribble is greatly detrimental to cruisers (ironically the most engineering heavy, thus the best suited to use EPtX powers).
Although having the Boff slots to run several different EPtX abilities (euh, honestly, there's not much else at ensign eng, for example), they can't anymore unless they put up with a 33% hole in EPtS. Unfortunate, given that cruisers are supposed to be the tanks in this game, a role hardly achieved without a proper EPtS protection.
Meanwhile, half non-cruiser ships can continue using twice EPtS with only a relatively minor nuisance of about 11% downtime (yes, they'll be better protected than most cruisers); and the other half will switch from using 2 EPtX powers with Damage control engineer doffs to the aforementioned 2xEPtS setup (sure, losing an EPtX ability with full uptime, but gaining up to 3 doff slots - as many as good an uptime you had with the lost EPtX ability).
I know there is this - very informative - thread out there: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=619891 (I'd recommend reading at least the first 2 pages).
But I still wrote this, more as a desperate plea for the devs to open their eyes and a short summary than as another forgettable post of a player unhappy with changes. And it is so desperate simply because I haven't seen a single dev mention about the latest change for weeks now. If it's because those devs are hard at work at a redesign of the current situation, then disregard this thread. If not, than please, acknowledge this (to be widespread, at May 21st) problem.
Although having the Boff slots to run several different EPtX abilities (euh, honestly, there's not much else at ensign eng, for example), they can't anymore unless they put up with a 33% hole in EPtS. Unfortunate, given that cruisers are supposed to be the tanks in this game, a role hardly achieved without a proper EPtS protection.
Meanwhile, half non-cruiser ships can continue using twice EPtS with only a relatively minor nuisance of about 11% downtime (yes, they'll be better protected than most cruisers); and the other half will switch from using 2 EPtX powers with Damage control engineer doffs to the aforementioned 2xEPtS setup (sure, losing an EPtX ability with full uptime, but gaining up to 3 doff slots - as many as good an uptime you had with the lost EPtX ability).
I know there is this - very informative - thread out there: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=619891 (I'd recommend reading at least the first 2 pages).
But I still wrote this, more as a desperate plea for the devs to open their eyes and a short summary than as another forgettable post of a player unhappy with changes. And it is so desperate simply because I haven't seen a single dev mention about the latest change for weeks now. If it's because those devs are hard at work at a redesign of the current situation, then disregard this thread. If not, than please, acknowledge this (to be widespread, at May 21st) problem.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
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Seriously hawk, or anyone, if this is part of a big change, then fine, but at least clue us in on what it is. I currently have 4 cruisers parked waiting to see if they are going to be made into museums after the 21st. I certainly will not be spending any money on more cruisers if this goes to holodeck. Unless you give us some idea of the rest of the changes, if any.
The current state of EPtX on tribble is bad, and you should feel bad.
The sheer amount of dev silence makes me extremely concerned. This change was originally instituted so as to make EPtX powers "more interesting." The problem was, according to the original design, they were practically intended to be chained - some forum users have actually looked up the old posts, and chaining is critical to a ship that is intended to thrive in pressure damage and endurance, not spikes. This has not changed.
This ultimately seems to force cruisers into one of two roles - complete healboat, or Aux2Batt, with the latter having people afraid of another nerf. It is already said that STO is Escorts Online - I don't think you guys really want that to actually happen, especially if you're relying on the strength of the license. Most of the "hero" ships were in fact cruisers, and their potential to be viable combatants is important for drawing in people who want to captain their own little version of the Enterprise. While I'm not advocating that they be invincible or anything of the sort, this is cutting out a massive amount of that viability right there. It also seriously damages the viability of many playstyles, leaving both new players and veterans alike lacking for options. Generally escort builds just plain aren't even close to cruisers - escorts are more like fighters, and many enjoy the option of playstyles that are not simply fighters.
Even if this change is made, ignoring PvP opinions entirely, you should be aware it significantly impacts PvE as well. For people who chose cruisers because they wanted something more like a battleship, with survivability and the ability to do something more than maybe throw out heals (and even THAT is arguably heavily impaired by these changes), this causes quite a few problems to say the least.
In case the strategy here is to retain deathly silence in the hopes that we will happily wander over to the Zen store and buy some escorts after chucking our cruisers in the trash, then it should be known that the reason there is less forum activity about this is NOT because people are grumbling and deciding to just live with it - it's because we feel as though until LoR hits Holodeck there is nothing more we can do while we silently stew and try to figure out if there's any way around this.
If the changes are to be accompanied by other changes that somehow mitigate this, that allow cruisers to retain their diversity without losing their actual viability, then I ask - what are these changes? Why have we not seen them? Can we see them? Are they going to be implemented before LoR hits? If not, when? We can't just wait six months with crippled ships. It should be telling that almost everyone I've spoken with seems to think that the next changes to be made will be even WORSE, and probably hem cruisers deeper into the narrowly-defined roles they're being pushed into by the EPtX changes.
I must ask - do you REALLY want all cruiser builds to look like the Enterprise-C from Temporal Ambassador? Just about everyone derides the ship in terms of actual viability, which is sad, but accurate. It looks like that's the way things are going, though.
In short, I do not know if this plea will fall on deaf ears, and I am not making noise simply to irritate the devs. In fact, I can ignore a lot of tweaking - but not this. I must ask you if you really, truly think these changes are going to help with diversity in builds - or just end up scrapping a lot of good ones and making players considerably more frustrated, especially those who want to have a ship that does more than heal and get shot. A lot of us like our battleships, and we would rather they not end up reduced to cheerleaders on nacelles.
I've been playing this game since launch and I really love this game as many others who post here. I normally do not post in forums but I also feel compelled to add my voice to these changes to EPtoX powers.
I really do not think the current changes as it stands now is a good change for the very reasons my collegues have pointed out. I've been perfecting cruiser builds since launch and have been adapting to all the changes since launch. Ever since this change was announced in the forums, I've been testing it out in tribble, trying to find ways to compensate for the changes, and I'm coming to a conclusion that these changes seriously limits the types of effective builds available for cruisers. I love the variety of cruiser builds available currently in holodeck, but with the changes in tribble, many of these builds will become a lot more ineffective. In alot of builds, chaining of two different types of Emergency Powers is a crucial part of the build. Cruisers are one of the only ship types that are able to chain two emergency powers....it is one of the few advantages Cruisers have in this game. As you can see there are many topics on the forums how cruisers need a buff.....please do not neuter the cruiser even further. Currently, I have builds that are able to compete with the mighty escorts...and these builds heavily rely on chaining two different emergency powers.
As my collegues here in the forums have pointed out, there are not many Ensign level Engineer powers besides EPtoX powers and Engineering team. Right now in Tribble, many of my ensign level slots are wasted.
If this goes live on holodeck on May 21st, I do not want the public outcry of these changes to overshadow how awesome the Legacy of Romulus is going to be. I do care about the health of this game and this community. Please do not release this change on May 21st. If changes needs to be made for the sake of balance, it may be more prudent to do it later as part of a larger overhaul. Not just one change at a time, but as a massive retooling as a whole. For example, you cannot just change defense, without adjusting the offense as well...at the same time. I feel change will be better accepted by the community if balance is approached this way, rather than piecemeal changes.
Thank you for listening and I appreciate your hard work.
I've been testing it out on tribble as well...not good man...It's game over man...its game over.
Seriously, cruisers need a buff...they don't need to be gimped further. In pve, I can compete with the escorts as well. In pvp, I mind as well be shooting spitballs....all flash...a pretty light show...
So Tactical cruisers may go the way of the dodo bird with this change...and we know how many Kirk-wannabes are out there. Cruiser will be the galactic cheerleaders...as the escorts do all the heavy-lifting. I guess I can go and play an escort...but flying an escort doesn't feel like Trek to me as flying a cruiser. I love flying big lumbering ships. Maybe I should trying ramming as my weapons don't do much in pvp.
Guess they aren't reading the bug reports.
...so I'm not going to post about that.
However, there are rumors (/cough) that the changes to EPtX are but merely part of a larger plan addressing Engineering BOFFs. Without repeating that rumor, I was wondering if there was any official comment in regard to that. If so, it could do wonders to alleviate at least part of the issue being raised...
...enjoy your weekend, guys - know that you're working it down to the bones to get this out for everybody.
Interesting. First time I've heard anything on this rumor at all. Or if I did, I forgot already.
But if that's the case, then I hope it is true, in a good way.
Perhaps those changes were merely the increase in arc to abilities we have seen eh?
Scary thought.
In all seriousness though the current EPtX is the same as giving all weapon buff boff abilities (CRF/TS/ETC) the same shared cooldown FaW currently has.
At least, one thing I like about this thread is that the arguments are being presented logically, without "crying" and in a measured tone.
The only way I can see as a fix is to remove the system cooldown between families of EP powers, allowing you to chain 2 powers continuously no matter what family you choose to have. The drawback is the creation of "super power spiking" where a player activates all 4 EP types at once, proccing the new EPS trait, the DCE doffs as well as the WCE multiple times, giving you 125 power across all ratings. I'd say that would be balanced by the fact that a cruiser can't possibly have that many eng slots to continuously keep all power at 100, that EP powers on their own even when DCE procced still has a 33% downtime, and with that much power, beam drain can be sufficiently countered.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
Indeed. I'd propose that they change the shared CD between EPtX and EPtY 10 seconds. This will maintain the previous balance while keeping the 5s downtime of each EPtX and Y, respectively as the devs wanted in the first place without TRIBBLE up the balance act of different EPtX's.
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Yes virus there are many many threads on this. However, rightly so. As it is right now for me (and a few others I am seeing) I am in limbo in regards to what to do. I went from playing everyday, working to refine my build, get better gear, what have you, to not logging on at all since this change.
I was already kind of in limbo wondering if I should hold off on working on getting gear with my main until LoR released because I would just have to start over anyway. Now however, given these changes coupled with the really bad direction they have gone with the rom cruisers, I am at a point where I don't know if I even want to bother getting gear anymore at all. Beams are apparently WAD, plasma is getting nerfed, EPtX change, and cruisers with even worse turn rate than Feds coming down the pipe.
I just can't find a reason to play at the moment. I really WANT to want to play, but with no word from the devs on this DEVASTATING change, I really don't have much hope for the future here.
Continuing to post on this same topic is our way (at least mine) of desperately trying to get the devs attention, albeit a futile effort.
Yeah, and move the cooldown of the abilities to 30 seconds.
I personally dislike the response we've gotten which amounts to "please test it first".
I've tested it, others have tested it. We play this game daily and 'test' the powers in this game.
The conclusion is no different, this change is bad for cruiser build options.
The change is bad for Cruisers taking any Emergency power higher than Tier 1.
My character Tsin'xing
It's one of those things, where I picture it this way...
Say there's 5-8+ threads on a matter. Each gets 1-4, 5-10 pages in it. Then it kind of drops off as the next one picks up. Say they're in different sections of the forums, so it's kind of spread out that way as well.
It gets diluted.
If there were one thread - where it was constantly bumped because folks were still trying to get the dev's attention on the matter...well, that shows a certain unity.
It's not a case that I do not think that it needs to be brought up and that the devs need to reply...it's just getting difficult to keep track of all the threads personally. Does it become a case of copying comments from one thread to the other to the other to the other to the other? Do we all just end up quoting ourselves from other threads?
Heck, with the initial change - I pointed out something in one of the threads which I thought people were ignoring while they argued over other parts. Then wham bam, sure enough, Cryptic went and did what I warned they would do...so other people started arguing about that as well.
It would be nifty if the devs could give us a mission statement, a goal, what they're hoping to accomplish with the changes. Cause for the life of me, with the first change - could kind of guess what they might be doing...wasn't working, but at least one could see they were trying to do something. The second change - just seemed like spite - made no sense at all...like the devs were throwing a tantrum because of the complaints received about the first change.
To be fair, some folks did go pretty hard after the new guy...and that was wrong...
...but it kind of turned into the don't complain about your steak, cause who knows what they'll do to it before they send it back, eh?
That's why most threads go off-topic, because everything is related to everything. You change one thing but affect dozen other things.
But the general message is clear, the current EpTX change is BAD.
Chel Grett (Eng)
EPtW1, AtS1
EPtS1
w/ 3x DCE
Mirror Deep Space (Sci)
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtA1
w/ 0 DCE
Mirror Advanced (Tac)
EPtW1, EPtS2
w/ 3x DCE
Mirror Star (Eng)
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
w/ 0 DCE
Jem'Hadar Escort Carrier (Eng)
EPtS1, AtS1, EWP1
EPtS1, RSP1
w/ 0 DCE
Hegh'ta Heavy BoP (Sci)
N/A
N/A
Mirror Vo'Quv (Tac)
EPtS1, RSP1, AtS2
EPtW1, ET2
w/ 3x DCE
Mirror Vor'cha (Eng)
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
w/ 0 DCE
Outside of the Sci BoP (neither Eng nor Tac BOFFs), everybody is running 2x EPtX or EPtX/EPtY. The Fed Sci is not using DCE DOFFs, because he's not "chaining" EPtS1 and EPtA1. They're being used as needed.
To be honest, that's how I feel the abilities actually should be. Used as needed - not always used.
Course, that does make me a hypocrite - since the six remaining guys currently all chain (usually with zero downtime) their EPtX abilities. And to be honest, perhaps even with the change - given what they're boosting on EPtA, I was looking at doing 2x EPtA1 on the Sci.
I mean, c'mon - there's 10 copies of EPtS up there on 8 toons where one of the toons doesn't even have any Eng BOFFs. There's another four EPtX abilities as well. 14 EPtX abilities on 7 toons.
Cause face it, uh - there's not really much one can do with Eng slots compared to Tac or Sci (yes, I've gotten up on my soapbox more than once on that matter.../cough). More on that later though.
So what does it look like now and what will it look like with the current change for each of them?
Currently (funny how often this actually changes or does not change), I have the following for Eng BOFFs:
Chel Grett (Eng)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.
Mirror Deep Space (Sci)
15s gap between EPtS1. Partial 15s gap between EPtA1. +Stealth Detection from EPtA1 only lasts 5s.
25s gap between EPtS1. 25s gap between EPtA1. +Stealth Detection lasts 20s.
Mirror Advanced (Tac)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.
Mirror Star (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.
Jem'Hadar Escort Carrier (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.
Hegh'ta Heavy BoP (Sci)
N/A
N/A
Mirror Vo'Quv (Tac)
Full partial uptime. The +Dmg bonus from EPtW1 only lasts 5s.
10s gap between EPtS. 10s gap between EPtW. +Dmg bonus lasts 20s.
Mirror Vor'cha (Eng)
Full uptime. Heal occurs every 15s and can be wasted.
20s up, 20s up, 5s down.
The 1x EPtX guy went from 15s to 25s. It's one thing to cover 15s and it's another to cover 25s...
The EPtX/EPtY guys face a 10s gap. Well, I've been covering 15s gap here and there on various toons over the past year or so...so yeah, that's manageable and pretty nifty with the 20s secondary buff on the EPtW/A/E matching that buff on the EPtS. Course, oddly enough 20s of +Dmg works out to be less than 25s of not having it with 10s additional weapon power. Weird, eh? So kind of meh there...
The 2x EPtX guys face a 5s gap every 40s. Unlike the 10s gap for the EPtX/EPtY guys, this 5s gap can actually be reduced. Heck, 2pc MACO drops it to 2.9s. Am I really even going to notice something that's going to be so short - and - a gap that's so easy to cover? Not likely...
So uh...yeah, that's not very balanced in the least is it?
Was the idea to stop folks from running 2x EPtS? Well, obviously that can't be the case...cause it's the best option with the changes they've made.
Was the idea to get folks to try different combinations of EPtX/EPtY? Er...by making 2x EPtX the most attractive choice? Yeah, don't think so.
Was it a case of trying to cut down on the spamming of EPtX abilities? Well, not with that 2x EPtX option there.
So it goes around and around...and around...and around...just what were they trying to do?
Which kind of gets into that "more later" thing - cause the rumor I heard was that the EPtX changes were part of a larger change being looked at with regard to Eng BOFFs which would include additional abilities. Yes, I'm a sucker for those rumors. Like I said, I've done more than my fair share of pointing out the issues with a lack of Eng BOFFs and the myriad of problems that creates on other levels.
Cause face it, looking at these changes - I can't see any sense in them. Sure, we know that we they nerf something - they like to lubricate that with a little extra something, a little buff. But is the 20s EPtA/E/W secondary thing a buff...or...just finally fixing them in comparison to EPtS? Was the nerf because of that buff? Just...well, what's going on?
Was it a case that more wanted to be done with the Eng BOFFs - but it's not looking like it can get done? Well, if that's the case - then revert this stuff and then tackle it again when everything can be done, eh?
If there's some reasoning behind it that I'm completely missing...hey, maybe a couple of lines about what that is?
It's one thing not to like a change...it's another to have no freaking clue why it's actually being made.
Agreed. They came from trying to make non-EPtS EPtX abilities more used/useful to making them much harder to use (since twice EPtS is pretty much the only efficient and useful strategy now for many). Which makes no sense.
I really hope there's something more coming. Either another change to EPtX powers, or some new possibilities in lower Eng Boff slots, or something else entirely. The way it is now looks half baked and I'm afraid it might remain that way for a very long time ("Don't worry, players, we are working on the situation of Engineering Boff abilities. We'll have a general idea on the table 'soon'." - Comes to mind as a possible Dev response.). And that 'fright' leads me (and clearly many more) to start many threads and write many posts.
So if there is another change coming (and the current mess would point to a logical "Yes, there must be."), it has to come before this current mess goes live.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
In light of past performance, I d expect the new Eng BO abilities that are the missing piece of the puzzle, to go live no sooner then 2020. Until then EptX will get the shaft presented in the tribble patch notes.
with a shinney WAD stamp of Geko approval.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I can say this change to the EPtx will relegate cruiser to the obscolete pile
II for one do not like this change as it is cruisers are hurting for way to many reasons and the only way they are usefull is as tanks and if you do go live with the EPtx changes you just made every cruiser in the game worthless.
Triple EPtX user: No downtime
Dual EPtX user: 5 second downtime every 40 seconds (12.5% downtime)
EPtX/EPtY user: 10 second downtime per each set every 30 seconds (33.33% downtime)
Damage Control Engineers, Technicians (for AtB builds), and the MACO 2 pc set does not reduce the global between EPtX and EPtY.
The added benefits to EPtW, EPtE, and EPtS are nice, won't deny that. The global cooldown between the different types of EPtX abilities remaining at 15 seconds, will prevent most people from using anything other than EPtS.
My Engineer will be a Triple EPtS user if this goes live as is. On live he chains EPtW and EPtS; with these changes it would be very detrimental to keep it. I use EPtW to help combat the weapon power drain. Being unable to use that ability, while still being able to tank, pretty much kills cruisers.
You make a very compelling point and i think that this EPtx change may be in part to the singularity ability of the roms.
It is possible with the current EPtx as is live to become almost unbeatable in a warbird using chains and the singularity quantum absorption atribute.
However if this does go live they had better do something for both KDF and FED ships to balance out this issue or cruiser become useless unless your a romulan.
My thought is to introduce a warp field ability similar to the singularity that the feds and kdf can use that would balance this whole thing out aswell as the EPtx changes.
They tend to test things in isolation, unfortunately. That's why there tends to be so many issues when things are used in conjunction with other things.
Pretty much accurate, yeah.
I'm sure the devs don't follow the daily forums drama, but at the very least this issue has more voices unified against itthan nearly anything else you can find on the forums in the past month or longer.
I mean, there are several posters, in my own thread and this thread, who normally almost always disagree with me and vice versa on nearly everything and yet we have common ground on this issue.
This feels like the some of the changes that were pushed like in S7, where feedback was completely ignored and when it finally went live there was a tsunami of negative posts.
I'm not sure this is on the same level, but I think it will definitely be interesting if this change gets pushed to live completely contrary to all of the reasoned, impassioned, logical and overwhelmingly negative feedback that it's garnered so far.