As I'm sure you well know, based on the pragmatism of the second sentence above, spamming EPtX abilities is the only route for Engineer-heavy ships to use their slots as efficiently as their Tactical and Science heavy cousins, while giving an option to use the higher rank versions.
Actually it goes far deeper than that. Engineer-centric ships are supposed to have high levels of endurance and the ability to slug it out over a long period of time, in exchange for the burst damage and speed abilities of ships like escorts. As the ships are now, these are both considerably lacking in practice without the EPtX ability series. And considering the nature of the ships, these abilities need to have high uptime in order to have the necessary effect - endurance and damage over extended periods of time, as opposed to the zippy escort playstyle that results in short periods of high spike damage.
This is compounded by, again, the fact that we CANNOT wait months or years for a fix to this problem to be implemented, if indeed one is even in the works, and the fact that many cruiser experts believe the main alternatives are either 1) have a toothless cruiser, or 2) a single build for a cruiser (Aux2Batt) with some very severe drawbacks.
I do think more folks need to lay out the testing they have done - cause sometimes that is what it takes to prove to the devs that people simply aren't whining about a change. That change is actually bad.
If you cycle 2 different types of EPTx abilities, you incur a 33% gap in uptime of both.
What is there to test at this point?
This isn't some esoteric new mechanic like the singularity powers, or nukara rep gear, that no one has any experience with.
Quite the contrary, this is EPTS, one of the single most commonly used BOFF powers in the entire game and some version of EPTX is very like only nearly every singe cruiser build there is.
Iterative design made Diablo 2 which I can tell you was not a failure. The problem with diablo 3 is they tried to cater toward their wow demographic and making as casual accepted as possible.
They began to abandon all the depth the previous titles had for simplicity, that's not iteration, that's changing the target audience of the previous titles. Iteration is the idea of taking some thing that worked before and making it better, instead they decided to take something that worked in completely different game and mismatch it into a action rpg.
I was referring to the idea of trying a specific game play system and when it doesn't exactly meet your expectations throwing it out and trying a different system. That is how they ended up having health orbs in D3 because they kept trying to 'fix' the problem of players chugging potions and removing the need to have an ability to heal.
Whereas in Path of Exile they beat the potion mechanic with a hammer until it met the 'vision' of the game design. And quite honestly I think their take on the potion mechanic is 1000x better than the one in D3.
But I'm getting off track. The big thing I wanted to get across is a fundamental lack of design vision, or philosophy inside this game. That is why so many changes/fixes/etc seem so absolutely random to so many people. No one has a real expectation of what the goal of the change is.
To use another analogy when someone plays DnD they expect their sneaky character (rogue) to still be quite capable in combat. However when you play say World of Darkness and create a sneaky vampire you expect him to get completely owned in combat against say a werewolf who is focused entirely on tearing things to shreds. Those are to implementations of 'role' philosophy in my view.
STO seems to on one hand promote always on effects. Even the recent change to Auxiliary to Structure had that exact effect on the ability and that was what a few months ago? And now they are saying that concept is bad yet at the same time allowing it (3 copies of EPtS always up never down muwhahaha Galaxy R for the WIN! ahem).
When you just constantly throw things at the wall until something sticks you can fully expect the community to give a collective WTF when they do so.
If you cycle 2 different types of EPTx abilities, you incur a 33% gap in uptime of both.
What is there to test at this point?
This isn't some esoteric new mechanic like the singularity powers, or nukara rep gear, that no one has any experience with.
Quite the contrary, this is EPTS, one of the single most commonly used BOFF powers in the entire game and some version of EPTX is very like only nearly every singe cruiser build there is.
What can you do to cover that gap? Are there other abilities that you can use? Is there gear that can diminish that? Are there passives?
People complain at the same time that there is too much damage and too much healing.
Meanwhile, people are running EPtS/EPtW with 100% uptime...?
Yes, it may be a case of having to give up something to cover something - opportunity cost. Too many folks want to run around munchkin powergaming...it's annoying.
There's a gap in EPtS. TSS? ExS from somebody else? TSS/ST from somebody else? RSP? RSF? Moving? Jam? Taking more hull damage and maybe using HE, AtS, PH, ET? Boosting Shield Power?
There are gaps all over the place. There are CDs all over the place. What's with the entitlement going on in regard to the EPtX abilities? Why shouldn't there be a gap there like with everything else?
That there are different gaps depending on what a person does...I definitely see as an issue. That's what I've been complaining about since the first change. The second change just made it that much more of a disparity between the 2x EPtX, EPtX/EPtY, and 1x EPtX guy.
But the way folks talk about it...the folks that will make fun of autofire...while basically having their EPtS on autofire, spamming it away whether they're taking any damage or not...is just a trip. The way folks talk about it, lol - this comes to mind...
Frank: Oh man, Ted just git by SNB.
Joe: Damn.
Pete: That's a shame.
Sara: Wish we could do something.
Ted: It's alright guys.
Frank: Sorry, Ted.
Joe: Yeah, sorry Ted.
Sara: See you after you respawn?
Pete: We'll get them for you Ted.
Ted: Okay, guys.
That's not what freaking happens in the least. Why are people making that out to be what will happen during the gap created by the change?
Oh noes, there's a 5-10s gap...in which there's absolutely nothing that anybody can do...oh noes!
But wait...that's not the case.
The devs know that.
Now, if folks go through - try to cover for it, make changes, demonstrate where everything does completely fall apart with the gap...then it's not really demonstrating that there is an issue with the gap, it's demonstrating that there's an issue with the rest of the game. That the lack of a gap for the EPtX is just a band-aid covering up the issue.
Personally, I'd rather have the issue addressed than just slapping band-aids on over and over...
...and again, it's going to be a case of whether it is an issue for everybody or just some people. If it is an issue just for some people, is it possible that the issue that is being complained about is...balance?
Cause again, way too many folks are munchkin gamers that want to do everything well - they don't want opportunity cost, they don't want balance...to Hell with them.
I'm also not hating on engineers at all my one and only 50 is a engineer, But maybe not shared cool down but, I still think it be nice if it, could fill in the gap between the shield hardening cooldown and effect.
But it could have flexibility to be stacked with it.
I'm one of those people that even if I don't like something, if there's a logical reasoning behind it - if I can rationalize it - then it diminishes the impact to an extent. Oh, it will still have impact - but it is not exacerbated by head throbbing attempts to understand it.
Similar to me -- I've seen and been subject to any number of changes over the years and MMOs I've played. A fair few have negatively affected me, but in the cases where the devs took the time to discuss them in depth with the players, it's been very acceptable.
I do think more folks need to lay out the testing they have done - cause sometimes that is what it takes to prove to the devs that people simply aren't whining about a change. That change is actually bad.
I think there's still a place for the discussion of the meta that surrounds the change, though. Solo testing, which is about all I can do on Tribble, can only really say "the timers and buffs are working as described".
But yeah, personally I think a change was needed (actually, a series of changes - you can't just make one change in isolation without TRIBBLE things up even more)...but that this change, I just don't get what this change is actually trying to accomplish. It's like talking to somebody that's shaking their head from side to side while saying yes. It's one of those "huh?" moments.
Unfortunately, as we're nearing three weeks since there was any development on this front, it's looking to me that it is a change that's being made in isolation.
Actually it goes far deeper than that. Engineer-centric ships are supposed to have high levels of endurance and the ability to slug it out over a long period of time, in exchange for the burst damage and speed abilities of ships like escorts.
It pains me to say, but chaining solely EPtS and the durability it brings will still be doable, even if it means 2x EPtS I and 1x EPtS II/III to get 100% uptime. What's being broken is the Dragon build of twisting EPtS and EPtW, and I'm suspecting that it's deliberately being broken as having too few drawbacks. Sad thing is, as strong as the build is, it still has a hard time keeping up with cookie-cutter escorts.
This is compounded by, again, the fact that we CANNOT wait months or years for a fix to this problem to be implemented, if indeed one is even in the works, and the fact that many cruiser experts believe the main alternatives are either 1) have a toothless cruiser, or 2) a single build for a cruiser (Aux2Batt) with some very severe drawbacks.
Assuming (1) is the "durable tanky cruiser" setup, I'm starting to think that those are exactly the options Cryptic want us to have. The third way embodied by the Dragon is probably out of bounds to them.
I think there's still a place for the discussion of the meta that surrounds the change, though. Solo testing, which is about all I can do on Tribble, can only really say "the timers and buffs are working as described".
Outside of the limited internal testing they've done - there really hasn't been the opportunity for level 50's with all the goodies participating in endgame PvE and PvP content with large numbers of players. 3 weeks isn't going to cut it. That's going to show when LoR launches.
Geko has mentioned several times: Ships are Classes. That's the way he looks at it, so folks need to look at it that was as well. Cause that's where things are. We need to accept that our Captains are part of the itemization for the Ships and not the Ships are part of the itemization for our Captains.
There's two distinct games taking place within STO when it comes to Captains.
Look at Ground. Each Career has that mix of Career and General Skills.
Look at Space. Each Career has the same General Skills. Yes, what can be trained for BOFFs will vary by Career - but the Skills themselves are not limited in that way - and you can get somebody else to train your BOFFs.
Look at Ground. The only Career Gear restriction is on Kits.
Look at Space. There are no Career Gear restriction.
Continuing with Space, no Career Gear restriction means no Career Ship restriction. There are no Career restrictions for the BOFFs that are on a Ship - those restrictions come from the Ship. The same goes for Weapons - those are restricted by the Ship.
With neither Ground nor Space are there any Career based DOFF restrictions.
Two games...when you pick your Career, you're picking your Ground Class - when you pick your Career, you're picking a flavor for the different Space Classes you might play.
Which may explain part of the disconnect that is taking place when you listen to Geko's surprise that more folks aren't flying more types of ships on each character. Many of the players are likely character-centric as opposed to ship-centric. They're seeing their Class as Tac, Eng, or Sci...not Escort, Cruiser, or Science Vessel. In a twisted way, the way Geko is looking at it allows for all sorts of awesome variable classing - along the lines of what TSW did - only you're selecting one of your ships as your class and taking it from there.
So let's put aside the Ground aspect, since we're talking about Space BOFF abilities. We're in Space and we've selected one of the Classes to play. We're bringing the "flavor" of whatever Career we selected to that Class.
Let's just stick with the Escort, Cruiser, and Science Vessel for now (it's easier). Those are the three base classes then. Let's just look at the Escort first, eh?
The Escort's Class is...er...some sort of DPS Class. Archer? The name doesn't quite matter, the gist of the Class is there, right? The Role for the Class is generally laid out - but because of the different Escorts, different Careers, and all the rest of the different "stuff" - there are a bunch of possibilities for what one can do to flavor that Role and the Class.
If we put a Tac in the Escort, we're giving the Class more Spike DPS. Cause that's what the Tac basically is. The Eng, we're giving the Class more "tank" against Spike DPS. The Sci brings some sorcery with a hybrid mix of what the Tac and Eng bring.
The Tac in the Escort will be capable of more damage than the Eng in the Escort. The Eng in the Escort will capable of taking more damage than the Tac in the Escort. It's what each brings to the Escort...Class. Likewise, the same applies to the Cruiser. Drop in the Tac or drop in the Eng, eh?
The Tac flavored Escort will be capable of more damage than the Tac flavored Cruiser. Likewise, the Eng flavored Cruiser can take more damage than the Eng flavored Escort. Yes, I know this isn't true...it's one of many things broken in the game. /cough But I'm going with it even though it is flawed. The Eng in the Cruiser should actually be able to survive better than the Eng in the Escort. Just doesn't work out that way.
Keep in mind, the only thing that separates the three Careers in Space are the 5 innate abilities they have. There are no other restrictions/differences. You can take a ship, gear it, build out the skills for the captain, pick your BOFFs and DOFFs, and...outside of the 5 innate abilities - there's no difference - there's no restrictions, etc, etc, etc.
So much like the Tac adds that flavor/itemization to the Escort, all the rest of the gear, BOFF, DOFF, skills, etc, etc, etc - adds to the Escort...Class.
Basically what is happening/would happen with regard to the EPtX abilities...is that it throws everything out of whack, no? 2x EPtS is making things tankier than they should be. Being able to run EPtS/EPtW is making things tankier and do more damage than they should be.
They're kind of throwing off the whole balance thing that is there at the very core of STO in Space...where you've got three base Classes and three base "Flavors" in the form of Career choices that add to them.
They don't work like anything else in the game. So one can see where Cryptic would want to try to restore some of the base balance and bring them more in line with the rest of the game.
That's a good goal, imho. Er, it's just not working out that way.
There's the strange disparity. It's not taking into consideration the overall lack of Eng BOFFs and specifically not that lack at the Ensign rank. It's a...wtfmoment.
2x EPtX and EPtX/EPtY should have the same "gap"...that "gap" being something that can be reduced (not eliminated) by DCE DOFFs, eh?
There needs to be more Engineering BOFFs.
Then testing for the viability of everything and any need to tweak those "gaps" could take place...imho.
Course, I could just be talking out my hairy...er...none of this matters without additional feedback/communication from the devs about what is going on.
Course, I could just be talking out my hairy...er...none of this matters without additional feedback/communication from the devs about what is going on.
This x10. I just wish someone somewhere at Cryptic would come out and say something like "We expect the Trinity. You should be bringing a healer and a tank into end-game content. By extent that means cruisers are not suppose to deal tons of damage" so I know what their goal is. Where they are coming from. Because frankly I have no idea.
What can you do to cover that gap? Are there other abilities that you can use? Is there gear that can diminish that? Are there passives?
Everything that exists we are already using now for the times when we need them.
There is no power in the game that will cover your 33% gap every single time on a EPTx / EPTy build, that is not already being used as a dynamic as needed power already for the times that you already need them.
Everything that exists we are already using now for the times when we need them.
There is no power in the game that will cover your 33% gap every single time on a EPTx / EPTy build, that is not already being used as a dynamic as needed power already for the times that you already need them.
Post the build...team build...where nothing can be adjusted or changed to cover that 10s gap.
Like I mentioned earlier, what do you guys do when somebody that has an EPtX ability up gets hit by SNB? Do you remember them fondly, somebody gives a eulogy...? Or is an attempt made to cover it?
edit: Basically if the devs are looking for proof...give it to them.
I'm also not hating on engineers at all my one and only 50 is a engineer, But maybe not shared cool down but, I still think it be nice if it, could fill in the gap between the shield hardening cooldown and effect.
But it could have flexibility to be stacked with it.
ALL captain abilities are specific to their profession. Your original suggestion was that EPtS and RSF should have a shared cooldown which would be a nerf to engineers without having any effect whatsoever on tactical or science captains. Engineer abilities are already wimpsauce, no need to call for a nerf on them.
RSF only boosts shield regen and resistance, but does not repair shields or increase/restore shield power. Plus RSF has a cooldown three times longer than EPtS.
RSF is not going to help with the forthcoming nerf to EPtS.
ALL captain abilities are specific to their profession. Your original suggestion was that EPtS and RSF should have a shared cooldown which would be a nerf to engineers without having any effect whatsoever on tactical or science captains. Engineer abilities are already wimpsauce, no need to call for a nerf on them.
RSF only boosts shield regen and resistance, but does not repair shields or increase/restore shield power. Plus RSF has a cooldown three times longer than EPtS.
RSF is not going to help with the forthcoming nerf to EPtS.
RSF does repair shields it doesn't restore down shields, if that's what your talking about but the regen associated with it does in fact heal shields. I withdraw the shared cooldown but, my suggestion was meant to reduce the cooldown of RSF by a lot and allow it to function along side shield hardening to chain shield resistances.
It is not a nerf imo for one thing the reason epts boasts shield power is one of the reasons why escorts can tank just as well as cruisers. Its a reliable way for escorts to tank while at 100% weapon power. Which is stupid on so many levels. People honestly need to change power levels to tank.
Unfortunately due to the design of several systems in the game, chaining epts is the most effective way to tank. Since you don't necessarily need epts 3 to tank most escorts can run 2 and 1. Chaining them to tank quite the same as a cruiser since there really is barely any hull tanking in the game as long a crew dies so fast, leaving a very variable hull regen.
I really would be a lot happier if a Systems dev would show some willingness to talk to us about it.
Why in the world would a dev communicate with testers on a test server about a change that you all are supposed to be testing? Where's the sense in that?
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I am a cruiser captain and I think the nerf is fine as it simply discourages just chaining EPtS to EPtS oh and EPtW just got a huge buff.
Maybe it is time for some people to think about changing in their build to incorporate some DPS.
How exactly does this change discourage you from chaining EptS ? Did you test the changes ? :rolleyes:
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I am a cruiser captain and I think the nerf is fine as it simply discourages just chaining EPtS to EPtS oh and EPtW just got a huge buff.
It appears you don't fully understand the changes.
The chaining of EPTS to EPTS isn't really affected. The 5 second downtime out of every 45 seconds isn't great, but can be worked around and lived with. However, what is much nastier is the downtime faced when working EPTS and EPTW together. Each Emergency Power is faced with 10 seconds downtime between each use, or 20 seconds out of every 60 in combat. This acts as an enormous discouragement to using more than one type of Emergency Power.
Additionally, because of the paucity of choice for Ensign level powers for Engineers, choosing an Emergency Power at a rank greater than I means you're likely to be not using any powers slotted in them; Engineering Team I is a marginal choice, true, but the domination of Tactical Team over the other Teams means that it's very situational and you're still discouraged from using a higher tier version.
In order to use Engineering abilities as efficiently as Escorts can use Tactical powers or Science vessels can use Science powers, Cruisers will be forced into using rank I versions of Emergency Powers, the same as Escorts and Science vessels will be using, further reducing the damage absorbing difference between those classes (comparing against a cruiser using EPtS 3 pre-change).
Maybe it is time for some people to think about changing in their build to incorporate some DPS.
I'm sad to see your assumption that those of us complaining about the change are not building with DPS in mind. One of the reasons the EPtS/EPtW chain is so well liked is because it lets us keep both weapon power and shield power at or near maximum, which is an enormous factor in energy weapon damage. It's still possible to keep them pretty high, especially if you have high-end gear, but unless you use EPtW over EPtS, your power levels will be dipping substantially further when using energy weapons. The lack of synergy (arc or type) between the traditional cruiser weapon -- beam arrays -- and, well, every other weapon system also hurts here, as well.
Cruiser commanders have been doing our best to perform well in the face of gimped weapon choices, the most restrictive ability choices, and the worst mobility. This change is, intentionally or not, saying "Well done for being inventive, but you really need to go back into the little box we've designated for you".
Like I mentioned earlier, what do you guys do when somebody that has an EPtX ability up gets hit by SNB?
We use the powers that you hold in reserve for SNB or Focus Fire, and not spam them every 20s because there is a 33% gap in coverage on an easy to exploit cycle.. :rolleyes:
Spamming them that often, as you suggest, will simply lead to draining your healing reserves quickly and giving up easier kills.
Premade teams aren't the ones who have to worry about this issue anyway, we'll build around it.
It's everyone else that will have to deal with this.
I know this hard to come to grips with, but I care about balance for balace sake even when the change doesn't directly affect me negatively.
I know this hard to come to grips with, but I care about balance for balace sake even when the change doesn't directly affect me negatively.
This has nothing to do with balance, having a gap in EPtS coverage that is, but instead with the meta.
So people will have a phase of 'vulnerable' and that would change the meta to a place where players would have to cover that phase. Seeing as everyone would have that phase it would just be a meta change not a balance issue. So their would be more kills at a faster pace. So the extend spider would be more popular/effective. Those are not bad things inherently.
You, and those like you, are simply afraid of a shift in the meta from 'lolz tank everything never die unless get double nuked and focused' to a faster pace where people explode and one of the goals will be to kill more of their team than they kill of yours.
High amounts of sustain make a pvp game less enjoyable for most people. That is why the number one online game (last I checked LoL) did a huge modification to it's systems and drastically reduced sustain causing more kills/deaths in the game. It was a good change.
*edit addon*
Changes to lower level (ensign) powers have very little to no effect on PvP balance because they effect everyone. They can have a huge effect on the meta and PvE. If 8 of the 10 players of a match all use an ability that gets nerfed the balance is unchanged, just the meta and style of play.
Now higher level boff abilities that are more attached to specific ships/builds/etc can be a balance change but really nearly every change in a PvP system effects the metagame much more than it does balance.
You post the team build that can cover a gap that occurs for 10s, every 20s in cycle, perpetually, in a 60 to 90 minute match.
Just a note, the 10 second gap only applies if you're working two different EPtX abilities together. If you're using two of the same EPtX, you're looking at a 5 second gap after each 40 seconds of uptime.
With no developer response to our feedback for three weeks, I think you should start assuming that the current state of affairs will go live and start adjusting builds accordingly.
You, and those like you, are simply afraid of a shift in the meta from 'lolz tank everything never die unless get double nuked and focused'
Laying it on thick there eh?
You, and those like you, who have zero real premade PvP experience, rarely if every PvP, and yet seem to have an abundance of theories and an armchair general's like view of how things function.
The EPTx / EPTy issue is not going to affect "people like me".
We will build around it, if we were even building for it at all.
I'm not even going to entertain the rest of your post, at some point you need to PvP for yourself and actually put your theories into practice, otherwise the two of us are just going to continue this silly dance on the forums and get no where.
I'm open to different ideas bud, but I'm not going to argue theories on PvP balance with someone who doesn't even PvP, much less play any kind of organized PvP.
So come PvP, maybe do the bootcamp thing. It's actually really good and you'll get an environment that is less chaotic than Arena to start out in.
I know what it's like for PvE players that have either an outright aversion to PvP or have not dipped their toes in for whatever reason.
I think all of us were one of those players at one point, I still have friends that are like that - so I'm not some "PvE player hater" or anything like that.
The truth is that this game's combat system really does shine in PvP though, and anyone with a mind for mechanics should at the very least give it an extended try.
Arguing for PvE's sake is a lost cause at this point.
The only non 'bubble gum' content we have gotten in an entire year is HSE, and yet the MUDflation we've gained is enormous in terms of gear, rep passives, etc. The two are not even remotely aligned.
Everything else, you can run what ever powers you want.
I'm sure there are some players that manage to get themselves killed in Tau Dewa sorties.
I'm not sure how they do this, as you can complete any of that content without EPTS and without Tac Team - and in fact, some content has been completed flying in circles with beams on auto-fire.
My complaint in this thread is the same as in the one I created, this direction for EPTx powers forces most builds into EPTS 1 x2 and marginalizes EPTA/E/W.
This is clearly contrary to the stated goals by adjucatorhawk!
The goal was to improve the cost opportunity of slotting those powers, their cost opportunity has very clearly become significantly worse instead.
Changes to lower level (ensign) powers have very little to no effect on PvP balance because they effect everyone. They can have a huge effect on the meta and PvE. If 8 of the 10 players of a match all use an ability that gets nerfed the balance is unchanged, just the meta and style of play.
One of the big problems with this change is that cruisers are being given a horrible set of outcomes:
1) Keep the EPtX / EPtY rotation they used before, but suffer 33% downtime for each type of power, or
2) Use EPtS I only, with the mere 5 second downtime (or none if you use Aux2Bat or slot a third EPtS power).
And then, if they opt for (2), they're given another choice with poor outcomes:
1) Use a higher rank of EPtS, while leaving Ensign slots with powers that will be rarely, if ever, used. This is a dilemma that is unique to cruisers, forcing them to behave more like 10 ability slot ships, not 12.
2) Or they can use EPtS I, giving up the resist advantage cruisers have over escorts and science vessels.
Ahh good; it wasn't clear that the EPtX / EPtY rotation was the usage scenario you were discussing. And I now remember that other thread; it had temporarily slipped my mind.
No you post it, since you apparently know so much about this.
You post the team build that can cover a gap that occurs for 10s, every 20s in cycle, perpetually, in a 60 to 90 minute match.
Folks work with Bort.
Folks work with Archon.
Folks work (and joke) with Zer0.
Think of the rapport with Jesse, Taco, Cat and the others (sorry, no caffeine yet).
Then look at what happened with Hawk.
What's so wrong about actually trying to work with him, develop a rapport with him, and move down that path to a better game with the team?
Personally (and yeah, I guess it's because I've been partaking in this), I think the folks talking about the disparity issue have been doing that...trying to do that. Working out all sorts of different combinations, talking about what can be done instead, what will happen to current rotations, what would happen with other rotations, etc, etc, etc.
The gap people aren't doing that. Why? They're just saying this won't work. Why? They're not going through and showing what could happen. Why?
The devs want testing. The gap people are saying eff that, just change it back. And they wonder why they don't get any feedback?
Hell, as one of the disparity folks...I'm wondering if we shouldn't just separate/distance ourselves from the gap folks...cause we might actually get a reply.
We use the powers that you hold in reserve for SNB or Focus Fire, and not spam them every 20s because there is a 33% gap in coverage on an easy to exploit cycle.. :rolleyes:
Spamming them that often, as you suggest, will simply lead to draining your healing reserves quickly and giving up easier kills.
I haven't suggested spamming anything. It's always about extremes with you, and I've never understood that. You don't have to throw everything at a 10s gap, but neither is it just a case of sitting there doing nothing. Why is it always about extremes? Is there nothing between?
As for giving up easier kills - well - to be blunt, isn't that a growing complaint? The length of matches because folks can't get a kill?
Shouldn't it be a case of trying to find some middleground - try to get away from the Yo-Yo nature of it where folks are either invincible or they're so vulnerable you could throw cotton balls a them?
Premade teams aren't the ones who have to worry about this issue anyway, we'll build around it.
It's everyone else that will have to deal with this.
There are PUG folks that have already built around all sorts of gaps. There are PUG folks that would still find a way to trip over their keyboard while sitting down where no gaps in anything wouldn't help them. That's the wonderful world of PUGs.
I know this hard to come to grips with, but I care about balance for balace sake even when the change doesn't directly affect me negatively.
Why would that be hard to come to grips with? You personally? Cause even in general, long ago I came to terms with various folks not caring about balance for balance's sake if it would affect them negatively. The forums are full of folks like that.
This change affects me negatively - doesn't mean that I don't believe that 100% uptime on EPtX(EPtX/EPtY) doesn't need to be addressed.
The Plasma Burn affected me negatively - doesn't mean I wasn't in there pushing for that change (and later pushing for them to change the Embassy [Pla] back since it wasn't part of what I was pushing for in the first place...don't even have them, just felt it was both illogical and "wrong" to change them like that on the folks that had made that investment).
The double Disruptor thing that's going on...I personally need to do more testing, but yeah - if it goes the way I think it will - I'll be pushing for that to be changed as well, even though it will negatively affect me. Both Disruptor and the Romulan Plasma...because if that Disruptor proc from the Romulan Plasma is causing a double debuff for Plasma damage - then that's off.
Heck, I've been against things that could help me - because I see where it will cause balance issues if it were put in place.
Frankly, I don't make a lot of friends on the forums because of aiming for that balance angle. There's a lot of nerf this and don't buff that...which just tends to tick folks off. There's even buff this and don't nerf that...which just tends to tick folks off.
I've pretty much played MMOs non-stop for over 15 years. Lots of different games. Lots of different patches. They've required some fundamental adaptation along the way.
The only one I've ever ragequit because of a change was EVE when they introduced Scavenging - and - that was because of dev responses on the forums. I was of the opinion that we should be able to pod folks that decided to scavenge our missions...they disagreed - it got heated...and yeah.
I had already left SWG before the NGE/CU, but I did walk away from WoW a week after Cataclysm dropped. Wasn't a ragequit though, I walked away bewildered...lol.
That's it, other games - all sorts of /facepalm changes - I didn't walk away.
With these changes, though - I definitely agree with those that think a little explanation of what they're trying to accomplish would be very helpful...cause they don't make much sense the way they're being implemented.
My complaint in this thread is the same as in the one I created, this direction for EPTx powers forces most builds into EPTS 1 x2 and marginalizes EPTA/E/W.
This is clearly contrary to the stated goals by adjucatorhawk!
The goal was to improve the cost opportunity of slotting those powers, their cost opportunity has very clearly become significantly worse instead.
This part, which folks keep pointing out in each of the threads...is the twisted part, eh?
Folks will argue all sorts of things in regard to everything else, but almost everybody agrees on this aspect.
People will be trading proverbial internet blows...this gets mentioned...they'll both nod in agreement...and then go back to trading proverbial internet blows.
Have to wonder, how much of the fighting that actually takes place would dissipate were this particular issue addressed...
...perhaps that's it, eh? Get the folks fighting each other to slip something in. Cryptic is looking for a little divide and conquer action, eh?
EPTx series of powers are now worth less than they were to cruiser builds as they can no longer cycle different power types.
Or are you discussing something else?
Yes I am referring to the original change, which was very good mind you, that everyone crawled out of the woodwork and whined that they cannot do anything without 100% up-time on EPtS. This current implementation is awful as I have stated many times but the original take was good.
Laying it on thick there eh?
You, and those like you, who have zero real premade PvP experience, rarely if every PvP, and yet seem to have an abundance of theories and an armchair general's like view of how things function.
The EPTx / EPTy issue is not going to affect "people like me".
We will build around it, if we were even building for it at all.
I'm not even going to entertain the rest of your post, at some point you need to PvP for yourself and actually put your theories into practice, otherwise the two of us are just going to continue this silly dance on the forums and get no where.
I'm open to different ideas bud, but I'm not going to argue theories on PvP balance with someone who doesn't even PvP, much less play any kind of organized PvP.
So come PvP, maybe do the bootcamp thing. It's actually really good and you'll get an environment that is less chaotic than Arena to start out in.
You have no idea why I do not bother to PvP much at all. And really it would be easy to construe my reasoning's as a personal attack so I shall not bother explaining it to you. However one does not have to partake in the activity if they have instead studied it to understand it. A Football coach does not have to play pro football to be a great coach for a pro team.
I know what it's like for PvE players that have either an outright aversion to PvP or have not dipped their toes in for whatever reason.
I think all of us were one of those players at one point, I still have friends that are like that - so I'm not some "PvE player hater" or anything like that.
The truth is that this game's combat system really does shine in PvP though, and anyone with a mind for mechanics should at the very least give it an extended try.
This games mechanics create a PvP metagame you enjoy good for you. That does not make them shine for everyone.
Arguing for PvE's sake is a lost cause at this point.
Really? Little condescending don't you think?
Thoughts in red but the bottom line is this result is because the current PvP meta was threatened and the players acted as if the sky is falling from the original push (10second downtime to ALL) and now dual EPtX builds are screwed. I thank everyone who railed against the original change from the bottom of my heart for this result (/sarcasm)
Hell, as one of the disparity folks...I'm wondering if we shouldn't just separate/distance ourselves from the gap folks...cause we might actually get a reply.
Both of the replies I've seen suggested (Working as Designed, or, It Works with All the Stuff Coming Later), are pretty easy to shoot holes through.
Here, a simple test that dev and player alike can do:
Fill those powers out with these new changes, and make it so you're not stuck using powers that share cooldowns to the point where you're wasting slots.
Keep in mind you probably have a tactical team in one of the Tactical BOFFs your ship has.
Folks work with Bort.
Folks work with Archon.
Folks work (and joke) with Zer0.
Think of the rapport with Jesse, Taco, Cat and the others (sorry, no caffeine yet).
Then look at what happened with Hawk.
What happened with Hawk?
He's started posting recently.
We've posted replies to his ideas and comments, he's either too busy to reply to these several megathreads or he has his reasons for not wanting to discuss it.
Yes I am referring to the original change, which was very good mind you, that everyone crawled out of the woodwork and whined that they cannot do anything without 100% up-time on EPtS. This current implementation is awful as I have stated many times but the original take was good.
You think it was good.
It's still
A) Up for debate. Not what Hawk originally intended, which is clearly demonstrated in his posts.
You have no idea why I do not bother to PvP much at all. And really it would be easy to construe my reasoning's as a personal attack so I shall not bother explaining it to you.
I'm sure I can surmise your reasoning, I've heard it all before in one form or another.
I'm a big boy though, I can handle the truth!
Feel free to send me a tell in game @USS_Ultimatum if you ever want to disclose it someplace less public than the forums.
However one does not have to partake in the activity if they have instead studied it to understand it. A Football coach does not have to play pro football to be a great coach for a pro team.
No, but they actually have to know the game of Pro football.
They have to have studied Pro Football, they have to know the players, the rules, etc.
PvE Players don't know PvP, and PvE mechanics knowledge does not equate to actually knowing enough to speak on PvP, much less "coach" it.
You can however watch PvP matches on youtube, if you don't want to actually pvP at all - most likely because you think negatively of people who approach PvP like an E-sport.
Do you feel the same about sports and athletes the way I am inferring you feel about PvP and PvPers?
This games mechanics create a PvP metagame you enjoy good for you. That does not make them shine for everyone.
How can you even know?
It's to be experienced. When I was not a PvPer in this game, and with no interest in it at all, I had the same view you did.
By circumstance, and to be honest outright boredom with this game, I ended up PvPing. One thing led to another, and next thing I know I'm in a PvP fleet.
Arguing for PvE's sake is a lost cause at this point.
Really? Little condescending don't you think?
No, I don't think you understood what I meant.
Which PvE in this game do you think your threads about sustained damage, or DPS, or any other game mechanics actually matter?
We both know there is one, single, area in PvE - and that's STFs.
Since F2P we have not gotten any content that is as "difficult" and I use that word extremely loosely, as STFs and maybe NWS.
Tau Dewa sorties, Snooze Nebula, Fleet Events.
That's all we've gotten.
It's easy, super casual, no effort content that almost saw me quit this game and hop into PvP on a lark.
You can feel however you want about PvP and PvPers, but where is the community born, community run, and successful community events for PvE similar to the 20 fleet, 100+ player participation, PvP tournament that Naz hosted?
A Tournament that was not only successful with little to no drama, people being good sports, and even non-premade teams able to join thanks to Premade players helping them fill their ranks and fill teams as needed.
Comments
Actually it goes far deeper than that. Engineer-centric ships are supposed to have high levels of endurance and the ability to slug it out over a long period of time, in exchange for the burst damage and speed abilities of ships like escorts. As the ships are now, these are both considerably lacking in practice without the EPtX ability series. And considering the nature of the ships, these abilities need to have high uptime in order to have the necessary effect - endurance and damage over extended periods of time, as opposed to the zippy escort playstyle that results in short periods of high spike damage.
This is compounded by, again, the fact that we CANNOT wait months or years for a fix to this problem to be implemented, if indeed one is even in the works, and the fact that many cruiser experts believe the main alternatives are either 1) have a toothless cruiser, or 2) a single build for a cruiser (Aux2Batt) with some very severe drawbacks.
If you cycle 2 different types of EPTx abilities, you incur a 33% gap in uptime of both.
What is there to test at this point?
This isn't some esoteric new mechanic like the singularity powers, or nukara rep gear, that no one has any experience with.
Quite the contrary, this is EPTS, one of the single most commonly used BOFF powers in the entire game and some version of EPTX is very like only nearly every singe cruiser build there is.
I was referring to the idea of trying a specific game play system and when it doesn't exactly meet your expectations throwing it out and trying a different system. That is how they ended up having health orbs in D3 because they kept trying to 'fix' the problem of players chugging potions and removing the need to have an ability to heal.
Whereas in Path of Exile they beat the potion mechanic with a hammer until it met the 'vision' of the game design. And quite honestly I think their take on the potion mechanic is 1000x better than the one in D3.
But I'm getting off track. The big thing I wanted to get across is a fundamental lack of design vision, or philosophy inside this game. That is why so many changes/fixes/etc seem so absolutely random to so many people. No one has a real expectation of what the goal of the change is.
To use another analogy when someone plays DnD they expect their sneaky character (rogue) to still be quite capable in combat. However when you play say World of Darkness and create a sneaky vampire you expect him to get completely owned in combat against say a werewolf who is focused entirely on tearing things to shreds. Those are to implementations of 'role' philosophy in my view.
STO seems to on one hand promote always on effects. Even the recent change to Auxiliary to Structure had that exact effect on the ability and that was what a few months ago? And now they are saying that concept is bad yet at the same time allowing it (3 copies of EPtS always up never down muwhahaha Galaxy R for the WIN! ahem).
When you just constantly throw things at the wall until something sticks you can fully expect the community to give a collective WTF when they do so.
What can you do to cover that gap? Are there other abilities that you can use? Is there gear that can diminish that? Are there passives?
People complain at the same time that there is too much damage and too much healing.
Meanwhile, people are running EPtS/EPtW with 100% uptime...?
Yes, it may be a case of having to give up something to cover something - opportunity cost. Too many folks want to run around munchkin powergaming...it's annoying.
There's a gap in EPtS. TSS? ExS from somebody else? TSS/ST from somebody else? RSP? RSF? Moving? Jam? Taking more hull damage and maybe using HE, AtS, PH, ET? Boosting Shield Power?
There are gaps all over the place. There are CDs all over the place. What's with the entitlement going on in regard to the EPtX abilities? Why shouldn't there be a gap there like with everything else?
That there are different gaps depending on what a person does...I definitely see as an issue. That's what I've been complaining about since the first change. The second change just made it that much more of a disparity between the 2x EPtX, EPtX/EPtY, and 1x EPtX guy.
But the way folks talk about it...the folks that will make fun of autofire...while basically having their EPtS on autofire, spamming it away whether they're taking any damage or not...is just a trip. The way folks talk about it, lol - this comes to mind...
Frank: Oh man, Ted just git by SNB.
Joe: Damn.
Pete: That's a shame.
Sara: Wish we could do something.
Ted: It's alright guys.
Frank: Sorry, Ted.
Joe: Yeah, sorry Ted.
Sara: See you after you respawn?
Pete: We'll get them for you Ted.
Ted: Okay, guys.
That's not what freaking happens in the least. Why are people making that out to be what will happen during the gap created by the change?
Oh noes, there's a 5-10s gap...in which there's absolutely nothing that anybody can do...oh noes!
But wait...that's not the case.
The devs know that.
Now, if folks go through - try to cover for it, make changes, demonstrate where everything does completely fall apart with the gap...then it's not really demonstrating that there is an issue with the gap, it's demonstrating that there's an issue with the rest of the game. That the lack of a gap for the EPtX is just a band-aid covering up the issue.
Personally, I'd rather have the issue addressed than just slapping band-aids on over and over...
...and again, it's going to be a case of whether it is an issue for everybody or just some people. If it is an issue just for some people, is it possible that the issue that is being complained about is...balance?
Cause again, way too many folks are munchkin gamers that want to do everything well - they don't want opportunity cost, they don't want balance...to Hell with them.
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Rotate_Shield_Frequency RSF is a engineer ability only.
I'm also not hating on engineers at all my one and only 50 is a engineer, But maybe not shared cool down but, I still think it be nice if it, could fill in the gap between the shield hardening cooldown and effect.
But it could have flexibility to be stacked with it.
Similar to me -- I've seen and been subject to any number of changes over the years and MMOs I've played. A fair few have negatively affected me, but in the cases where the devs took the time to discuss them in depth with the players, it's been very acceptable.
I think there's still a place for the discussion of the meta that surrounds the change, though. Solo testing, which is about all I can do on Tribble, can only really say "the timers and buffs are working as described".
Unfortunately, as we're nearing three weeks since there was any development on this front, it's looking to me that it is a change that's being made in isolation.
It pains me to say, but chaining solely EPtS and the durability it brings will still be doable, even if it means 2x EPtS I and 1x EPtS II/III to get 100% uptime. What's being broken is the Dragon build of twisting EPtS and EPtW, and I'm suspecting that it's deliberately being broken as having too few drawbacks. Sad thing is, as strong as the build is, it still has a hard time keeping up with cookie-cutter escorts.
Assuming (1) is the "durable tanky cruiser" setup, I'm starting to think that those are exactly the options Cryptic want us to have. The third way embodied by the Dragon is probably out of bounds to them.
Outside of the limited internal testing they've done - there really hasn't been the opportunity for level 50's with all the goodies participating in endgame PvE and PvP content with large numbers of players. 3 weeks isn't going to cut it. That's going to show when LoR launches.
There's two distinct games taking place within STO when it comes to Captains.
Look at Ground. Each Career has that mix of Career and General Skills.
Look at Space. Each Career has the same General Skills. Yes, what can be trained for BOFFs will vary by Career - but the Skills themselves are not limited in that way - and you can get somebody else to train your BOFFs.
Look at Ground. The only Career Gear restriction is on Kits.
Look at Space. There are no Career Gear restriction.
Continuing with Space, no Career Gear restriction means no Career Ship restriction. There are no Career restrictions for the BOFFs that are on a Ship - those restrictions come from the Ship. The same goes for Weapons - those are restricted by the Ship.
With neither Ground nor Space are there any Career based DOFF restrictions.
Two games...when you pick your Career, you're picking your Ground Class - when you pick your Career, you're picking a flavor for the different Space Classes you might play.
Which may explain part of the disconnect that is taking place when you listen to Geko's surprise that more folks aren't flying more types of ships on each character. Many of the players are likely character-centric as opposed to ship-centric. They're seeing their Class as Tac, Eng, or Sci...not Escort, Cruiser, or Science Vessel. In a twisted way, the way Geko is looking at it allows for all sorts of awesome variable classing - along the lines of what TSW did - only you're selecting one of your ships as your class and taking it from there.
So let's put aside the Ground aspect, since we're talking about Space BOFF abilities. We're in Space and we've selected one of the Classes to play. We're bringing the "flavor" of whatever Career we selected to that Class.
Let's just stick with the Escort, Cruiser, and Science Vessel for now (it's easier). Those are the three base classes then. Let's just look at the Escort first, eh?
The Escort's Class is...er...some sort of DPS Class. Archer? The name doesn't quite matter, the gist of the Class is there, right? The Role for the Class is generally laid out - but because of the different Escorts, different Careers, and all the rest of the different "stuff" - there are a bunch of possibilities for what one can do to flavor that Role and the Class.
If we put a Tac in the Escort, we're giving the Class more Spike DPS. Cause that's what the Tac basically is. The Eng, we're giving the Class more "tank" against Spike DPS. The Sci brings some sorcery with a hybrid mix of what the Tac and Eng bring.
The Tac in the Escort will be capable of more damage than the Eng in the Escort. The Eng in the Escort will capable of taking more damage than the Tac in the Escort. It's what each brings to the Escort...Class. Likewise, the same applies to the Cruiser. Drop in the Tac or drop in the Eng, eh?
The Tac flavored Escort will be capable of more damage than the Tac flavored Cruiser. Likewise, the Eng flavored Cruiser can take more damage than the Eng flavored Escort. Yes, I know this isn't true...it's one of many things broken in the game. /cough But I'm going with it even though it is flawed. The Eng in the Cruiser should actually be able to survive better than the Eng in the Escort. Just doesn't work out that way.
Keep in mind, the only thing that separates the three Careers in Space are the 5 innate abilities they have. There are no other restrictions/differences. You can take a ship, gear it, build out the skills for the captain, pick your BOFFs and DOFFs, and...outside of the 5 innate abilities - there's no difference - there's no restrictions, etc, etc, etc.
So much like the Tac adds that flavor/itemization to the Escort, all the rest of the gear, BOFF, DOFF, skills, etc, etc, etc - adds to the Escort...Class.
Basically what is happening/would happen with regard to the EPtX abilities...is that it throws everything out of whack, no? 2x EPtS is making things tankier than they should be. Being able to run EPtS/EPtW is making things tankier and do more damage than they should be.
They're kind of throwing off the whole balance thing that is there at the very core of STO in Space...where you've got three base Classes and three base "Flavors" in the form of Career choices that add to them.
They don't work like anything else in the game. So one can see where Cryptic would want to try to restore some of the base balance and bring them more in line with the rest of the game.
That's a good goal, imho. Er, it's just not working out that way.
There's the strange disparity. It's not taking into consideration the overall lack of Eng BOFFs and specifically not that lack at the Ensign rank. It's a...wtfmoment.
2x EPtX and EPtX/EPtY should have the same "gap"...that "gap" being something that can be reduced (not eliminated) by DCE DOFFs, eh?
There needs to be more Engineering BOFFs.
Then testing for the viability of everything and any need to tweak those "gaps" could take place...imho.
Course, I could just be talking out my hairy...er...none of this matters without additional feedback/communication from the devs about what is going on.
This x10. I just wish someone somewhere at Cryptic would come out and say something like "We expect the Trinity. You should be bringing a healer and a tank into end-game content. By extent that means cruisers are not suppose to deal tons of damage" so I know what their goal is. Where they are coming from. Because frankly I have no idea.
Everything that exists we are already using now for the times when we need them.
There is no power in the game that will cover your 33% gap every single time on a EPTx / EPTy build, that is not already being used as a dynamic as needed power already for the times that you already need them.
Post the build...team build...where nothing can be adjusted or changed to cover that 10s gap.
Like I mentioned earlier, what do you guys do when somebody that has an EPtX ability up gets hit by SNB? Do you remember them fondly, somebody gives a eulogy...? Or is an attempt made to cover it?
edit: Basically if the devs are looking for proof...give it to them.
Seriously.... Are the devs intent on forcing Scis and Cruisers out of the game?
Lag Watch:
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Iconian Season: Critical
RSF only boosts shield regen and resistance, but does not repair shields or increase/restore shield power. Plus RSF has a cooldown three times longer than EPtS.
RSF is not going to help with the forthcoming nerf to EPtS. Pretty much, yeah.
RSF does repair shields it doesn't restore down shields, if that's what your talking about but the regen associated with it does in fact heal shields. I withdraw the shared cooldown but, my suggestion was meant to reduce the cooldown of RSF by a lot and allow it to function along side shield hardening to chain shield resistances.
It is not a nerf imo for one thing the reason epts boasts shield power is one of the reasons why escorts can tank just as well as cruisers. Its a reliable way for escorts to tank while at 100% weapon power. Which is stupid on so many levels. People honestly need to change power levels to tank.
Unfortunately due to the design of several systems in the game, chaining epts is the most effective way to tank. Since you don't necessarily need epts 3 to tank most escorts can run 2 and 1. Chaining them to tank quite the same as a cruiser since there really is barely any hull tanking in the game as long a crew dies so fast, leaving a very variable hull regen.
Why in the world would a dev communicate with testers on a test server about a change that you all are supposed to be testing? Where's the sense in that?
Maybe it is time for some people to think about changing in their build to incorporate some DPS.
How exactly does this change discourage you from chaining EptS ? Did you test the changes ? :rolleyes:
It appears you don't fully understand the changes.
The chaining of EPTS to EPTS isn't really affected. The 5 second downtime out of every 45 seconds isn't great, but can be worked around and lived with. However, what is much nastier is the downtime faced when working EPTS and EPTW together. Each Emergency Power is faced with 10 seconds downtime between each use, or 20 seconds out of every 60 in combat. This acts as an enormous discouragement to using more than one type of Emergency Power.
Additionally, because of the paucity of choice for Ensign level powers for Engineers, choosing an Emergency Power at a rank greater than I means you're likely to be not using any powers slotted in them; Engineering Team I is a marginal choice, true, but the domination of Tactical Team over the other Teams means that it's very situational and you're still discouraged from using a higher tier version.
In order to use Engineering abilities as efficiently as Escorts can use Tactical powers or Science vessels can use Science powers, Cruisers will be forced into using rank I versions of Emergency Powers, the same as Escorts and Science vessels will be using, further reducing the damage absorbing difference between those classes (comparing against a cruiser using EPtS 3 pre-change).
I'm sad to see your assumption that those of us complaining about the change are not building with DPS in mind. One of the reasons the EPtS/EPtW chain is so well liked is because it lets us keep both weapon power and shield power at or near maximum, which is an enormous factor in energy weapon damage. It's still possible to keep them pretty high, especially if you have high-end gear, but unless you use EPtW over EPtS, your power levels will be dipping substantially further when using energy weapons. The lack of synergy (arc or type) between the traditional cruiser weapon -- beam arrays -- and, well, every other weapon system also hurts here, as well.
Cruiser commanders have been doing our best to perform well in the face of gimped weapon choices, the most restrictive ability choices, and the worst mobility. This change is, intentionally or not, saying "Well done for being inventive, but you really need to go back into the little box we've designated for you".
No you post it, since you apparently know so much about this.
You post the team build that can cover a gap that occurs for 10s, every 20s in cycle, perpetually, in a 60 to 90 minute match.
We use the powers that you hold in reserve for SNB or Focus Fire, and not spam them every 20s because there is a 33% gap in coverage on an easy to exploit cycle.. :rolleyes:
Spamming them that often, as you suggest, will simply lead to draining your healing reserves quickly and giving up easier kills.
Premade teams aren't the ones who have to worry about this issue anyway, we'll build around it.
It's everyone else that will have to deal with this.
I know this hard to come to grips with, but I care about balance for balace sake even when the change doesn't directly affect me negatively.
This has nothing to do with balance, having a gap in EPtS coverage that is, but instead with the meta.
So people will have a phase of 'vulnerable' and that would change the meta to a place where players would have to cover that phase. Seeing as everyone would have that phase it would just be a meta change not a balance issue. So their would be more kills at a faster pace. So the extend spider would be more popular/effective. Those are not bad things inherently.
You, and those like you, are simply afraid of a shift in the meta from 'lolz tank everything never die unless get double nuked and focused' to a faster pace where people explode and one of the goals will be to kill more of their team than they kill of yours.
High amounts of sustain make a pvp game less enjoyable for most people. That is why the number one online game (last I checked LoL) did a huge modification to it's systems and drastically reduced sustain causing more kills/deaths in the game. It was a good change.
*edit addon*
Changes to lower level (ensign) powers have very little to no effect on PvP balance because they effect everyone. They can have a huge effect on the meta and PvE. If 8 of the 10 players of a match all use an ability that gets nerfed the balance is unchanged, just the meta and style of play.
Now higher level boff abilities that are more attached to specific ships/builds/etc can be a balance change but really nearly every change in a PvP system effects the metagame much more than it does balance.
Just a note, the 10 second gap only applies if you're working two different EPtX abilities together. If you're using two of the same EPtX, you're looking at a 5 second gap after each 40 seconds of uptime.
With no developer response to our feedback for three weeks, I think you should start assuming that the current state of affairs will go live and start adjusting builds accordingly.
It has everything to do with balance.
EPTx series of powers are now worth less than they were to cruiser builds as they can no longer cycle different power types.
Or are you discussing something else?
Laying it on thick there eh?
You, and those like you, who have zero real premade PvP experience, rarely if every PvP, and yet seem to have an abundance of theories and an armchair general's like view of how things function.
The EPTx / EPTy issue is not going to affect "people like me".
We will build around it, if we were even building for it at all.
I'm not even going to entertain the rest of your post, at some point you need to PvP for yourself and actually put your theories into practice, otherwise the two of us are just going to continue this silly dance on the forums and get no where.
I'm open to different ideas bud, but I'm not going to argue theories on PvP balance with someone who doesn't even PvP, much less play any kind of organized PvP.
So come PvP, maybe do the bootcamp thing. It's actually really good and you'll get an environment that is less chaotic than Arena to start out in.
I know what it's like for PvE players that have either an outright aversion to PvP or have not dipped their toes in for whatever reason.
I think all of us were one of those players at one point, I still have friends that are like that - so I'm not some "PvE player hater" or anything like that.
The truth is that this game's combat system really does shine in PvP though, and anyone with a mind for mechanics should at the very least give it an extended try.
Arguing for PvE's sake is a lost cause at this point.
The only non 'bubble gum' content we have gotten in an entire year is HSE, and yet the MUDflation we've gained is enormous in terms of gear, rep passives, etc. The two are not even remotely aligned.
Everything else, you can run what ever powers you want.
I'm sure there are some players that manage to get themselves killed in Tau Dewa sorties.
I'm not sure how they do this, as you can complete any of that content without EPTS and without Tac Team - and in fact, some content has been completed flying in circles with beams on auto-fire.
Yep, I know.
That's what this entire thread is about.
So is this thread that I created.
My complaint in this thread is the same as in the one I created, this direction for EPTx powers forces most builds into EPTS 1 x2 and marginalizes EPTA/E/W.
This is clearly contrary to the stated goals by adjucatorhawk!
The goal was to improve the cost opportunity of slotting those powers, their cost opportunity has very clearly become significantly worse instead.
One of the big problems with this change is that cruisers are being given a horrible set of outcomes:
1) Keep the EPtX / EPtY rotation they used before, but suffer 33% downtime for each type of power, or
2) Use EPtS I only, with the mere 5 second downtime (or none if you use Aux2Bat or slot a third EPtS power).
And then, if they opt for (2), they're given another choice with poor outcomes:
1) Use a higher rank of EPtS, while leaving Ensign slots with powers that will be rarely, if ever, used. This is a dilemma that is unique to cruisers, forcing them to behave more like 10 ability slot ships, not 12.
2) Or they can use EPtS I, giving up the resist advantage cruisers have over escorts and science vessels.
Ahh good; it wasn't clear that the EPtX / EPtY rotation was the usage scenario you were discussing. And I now remember that other thread; it had temporarily slipped my mind.
Folks work with Bort.
Folks work with Archon.
Folks work (and joke) with Zer0.
Think of the rapport with Jesse, Taco, Cat and the others (sorry, no caffeine yet).
Then look at what happened with Hawk.
What's so wrong about actually trying to work with him, develop a rapport with him, and move down that path to a better game with the team?
Personally (and yeah, I guess it's because I've been partaking in this), I think the folks talking about the disparity issue have been doing that...trying to do that. Working out all sorts of different combinations, talking about what can be done instead, what will happen to current rotations, what would happen with other rotations, etc, etc, etc.
The gap people aren't doing that. Why? They're just saying this won't work. Why? They're not going through and showing what could happen. Why?
The devs want testing. The gap people are saying eff that, just change it back. And they wonder why they don't get any feedback?
Hell, as one of the disparity folks...I'm wondering if we shouldn't just separate/distance ourselves from the gap folks...cause we might actually get a reply.
I haven't suggested spamming anything. It's always about extremes with you, and I've never understood that. You don't have to throw everything at a 10s gap, but neither is it just a case of sitting there doing nothing. Why is it always about extremes? Is there nothing between?
As for giving up easier kills - well - to be blunt, isn't that a growing complaint? The length of matches because folks can't get a kill?
Shouldn't it be a case of trying to find some middleground - try to get away from the Yo-Yo nature of it where folks are either invincible or they're so vulnerable you could throw cotton balls a them?
There are PUG folks that have already built around all sorts of gaps. There are PUG folks that would still find a way to trip over their keyboard while sitting down where no gaps in anything wouldn't help them. That's the wonderful world of PUGs.
Why would that be hard to come to grips with? You personally? Cause even in general, long ago I came to terms with various folks not caring about balance for balance's sake if it would affect them negatively. The forums are full of folks like that.
This change affects me negatively - doesn't mean that I don't believe that 100% uptime on EPtX(EPtX/EPtY) doesn't need to be addressed.
The Plasma Burn affected me negatively - doesn't mean I wasn't in there pushing for that change (and later pushing for them to change the Embassy [Pla] back since it wasn't part of what I was pushing for in the first place...don't even have them, just felt it was both illogical and "wrong" to change them like that on the folks that had made that investment).
The double Disruptor thing that's going on...I personally need to do more testing, but yeah - if it goes the way I think it will - I'll be pushing for that to be changed as well, even though it will negatively affect me. Both Disruptor and the Romulan Plasma...because if that Disruptor proc from the Romulan Plasma is causing a double debuff for Plasma damage - then that's off.
Heck, I've been against things that could help me - because I see where it will cause balance issues if it were put in place.
Frankly, I don't make a lot of friends on the forums because of aiming for that balance angle. There's a lot of nerf this and don't buff that...which just tends to tick folks off. There's even buff this and don't nerf that...which just tends to tick folks off.
I've pretty much played MMOs non-stop for over 15 years. Lots of different games. Lots of different patches. They've required some fundamental adaptation along the way.
The only one I've ever ragequit because of a change was EVE when they introduced Scavenging - and - that was because of dev responses on the forums. I was of the opinion that we should be able to pod folks that decided to scavenge our missions...they disagreed - it got heated...and yeah.
I had already left SWG before the NGE/CU, but I did walk away from WoW a week after Cataclysm dropped. Wasn't a ragequit though, I walked away bewildered...lol.
That's it, other games - all sorts of /facepalm changes - I didn't walk away.
With these changes, though - I definitely agree with those that think a little explanation of what they're trying to accomplish would be very helpful...cause they don't make much sense the way they're being implemented.
This part, which folks keep pointing out in each of the threads...is the twisted part, eh?
Folks will argue all sorts of things in regard to everything else, but almost everybody agrees on this aspect.
People will be trading proverbial internet blows...this gets mentioned...they'll both nod in agreement...and then go back to trading proverbial internet blows.
Have to wonder, how much of the fighting that actually takes place would dissipate were this particular issue addressed...
...perhaps that's it, eh? Get the folks fighting each other to slip something in. Cryptic is looking for a little divide and conquer action, eh?
Thoughts in red but the bottom line is this result is because the current PvP meta was threatened and the players acted as if the sky is falling from the original push (10second downtime to ALL) and now dual EPtX builds are screwed. I thank everyone who railed against the original change from the bottom of my heart for this result (/sarcasm)
Both of the replies I've seen suggested (Working as Designed, or, It Works with All the Stuff Coming Later), are pretty easy to shoot holes through.
Here, a simple test that dev and player alike can do:
You have:
Commander Engineer BOFF.
Lt. Commander Engineer BOFF.
Ensign Engineer BOFF.
Fill those powers out with these new changes, and make it so you're not stuck using powers that share cooldowns to the point where you're wasting slots.
Keep in mind you probably have a tactical team in one of the Tactical BOFFs your ship has.
Go!
What happened with Hawk?
He's started posting recently.
We've posted replies to his ideas and comments, he's either too busy to reply to these several megathreads or he has his reasons for not wanting to discuss it.
That's all there really is to say on that.
Nothing?
Main problem is you can't build a rapport with a dev nor a dev with players if you don't actually have conversations.
It's not a dig on hawk, maybe he prefers to let his changes speak for themselves. I don't know, because there isn't enough conversation to go on.
Tossing things to cover the gap every 20s will in fact be spamming that power.
Spamming is just a word, a convention used to describe using something repeatedly as often as its available.
Pick another word, what I described won't change.
You think it was good.
It's still
A) Up for debate.
I'm sure I can surmise your reasoning, I've heard it all before in one form or another.
I'm a big boy though, I can handle the truth!
Feel free to send me a tell in game @USS_Ultimatum if you ever want to disclose it someplace less public than the forums.
No, but they actually have to know the game of Pro football.
They have to have studied Pro Football, they have to know the players, the rules, etc.
PvE Players don't know PvP, and PvE mechanics knowledge does not equate to actually knowing enough to speak on PvP, much less "coach" it.
You can however watch PvP matches on youtube, if you don't want to actually pvP at all - most likely because you think negatively of people who approach PvP like an E-sport.
Do you feel the same about sports and athletes the way I am inferring you feel about PvP and PvPers?
How can you even know?
It's to be experienced. When I was not a PvPer in this game, and with no interest in it at all, I had the same view you did.
By circumstance, and to be honest outright boredom with this game, I ended up PvPing. One thing led to another, and next thing I know I'm in a PvP fleet.
No, I don't think you understood what I meant.
Which PvE in this game do you think your threads about sustained damage, or DPS, or any other game mechanics actually matter?
We both know there is one, single, area in PvE - and that's STFs.
Since F2P we have not gotten any content that is as "difficult" and I use that word extremely loosely, as STFs and maybe NWS.
Tau Dewa sorties, Snooze Nebula, Fleet Events.
That's all we've gotten.
It's easy, super casual, no effort content that almost saw me quit this game and hop into PvP on a lark.
You can feel however you want about PvP and PvPers, but where is the community born, community run, and successful community events for PvE similar to the 20 fleet, 100+ player participation, PvP tournament that Naz hosted?
A Tournament that was not only successful with little to no drama, people being good sports, and even non-premade teams able to join thanks to Premade players helping them fill their ranks and fill teams as needed.