Fill those powers out with these new changes, and make it so you're not stuck using powers that share cooldowns to the point where you're wasting slots.
Keep in mind you probably have a tactical team in one of the Tactical BOFFs your ship has.
Go!
EPtS1, RSP1, EWP1, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
ET1
EPtS1, AtB1, EWP1, DEM3
EPtW1, AtB1, RSP2
EPtA1
EPtE1, BP1, AtS2, EWP3
EPtE1, AtD1, RSP2
ET1
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, AtD1, RSP2
EPtS1
EPtE1, EPtS2, AtB2, AB3
EPtA1, RSP1, AtB2
ET1
I can keep going - but in the end, it's no different than the argument being made now that there are not enough Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities.
Having only five available at Ensign, where four of those are on a triggered CD with each other and the fifth one is on a triggered CD with a Tac and Sci ability...is broken.
Somebody saying that their 4x EPtX/Y/Z build is going to be broken with the changes is /facepalm to me...because I'd say their 3x EPtX/Y/Z builds are already broken. They're already wasting slots. If they don't believe they are, then I'm not sure how they can make the complaint that these changes would.
I'd love to see more EPtX2 and EPtX3...but because of only having those five abilities at Ensign...it's broken, imho.
I still think that PH, HE, and TSS should be moved from Sci to Eng. I still think TSS/ExS need to have their mechanics reworked so that TSS actually transfers shield strength and extend shields actually extends shields. I still think AB should be moved from Eng to Sci. I still think some of the Lt Sci abilities should be lowered in rank so they're En Sci abilities.
I think too many things are looked at in isolation and that causes more problems than anything...
However one does not have to partake in the activity if they have instead studied it to understand it. A Football coach does not have to play pro football to be a great coach for a pro team.
that is completely untrue here. you have to actually pvp, and pvp a lot, to see how things really are. its so clear that the systems team doesn't do enough, or possibly any, its reflected in their bone head approach to try to balance these EPt changes. all they accomplished was several killing blows to cruisers, and buffs to escorts. and they would have actually known that if they played their game were the margins are close and the extremes are everything. you dont pvp? well, that explained a lot about your arguments.
Dude got reamed...folks went off on him. He made a miscalculation in regard to the downtime and folks went off...he corrected it, tried to explain it, even joked about it some, left a post there as a mark of shame, tried to be...tried to take the high road, mea culpa - etc, etc, etc...and he got reamed.
Tossing things to cover the gap every 20s will in fact be spamming that power.
There are many things that can be done. It's only spamming if it is the same thing. Otherwise, anything that anybody does could be considered spamming - even if they never repeat the same thing.
Dude got reamed...folks went off on him. He made a miscalculation in regard to the downtime and folks went off...he corrected it, tried to explain it, even joked about it some, left a post there as a mark of shame, tried to be...tried to take the high road, mea culpa - etc, etc, etc...and he got reamed.
I don't want to see any dev get treated unfairly.
At the same time, you should have the CDs of powers memorized if you are actively making changes to such critical elements as cooldowns.
He made a mistake, it happens.
He owned up to it like a champ, and then he went ahead and put forth a change to make EPTx powers conform to that gap he originally seemed to have intended.
The only issue is that he still seems to be under the impression that you should "choose" which EPTx sub-power you want to build your ship around.
That brings us here, with Cruisers making out the worst of the lot with these changes.
The frustration, at least for me comes down to playing this game from an engineer perspective. Well over half of the stuff to do in this game takes place on the ground. The engineer is thoroughly enjoyable on the ground. In space they are a different story.
I am a pvper. I have been since I was bitten by the pvp bug back in the later days of UO and the early days of darke age of camelot. I am also a min/maxer. I just find it enjoyable to refine builds constantly to get the absolute most out of them.
Like most mmos, this games real content doesn't begin until high level, so I spent much of the time learning the game, builds, etc. Now I have my eng ready for pvp with max rep, high end gear and a solid build. Specced for healing and support, I start with pugs. Only to find out I am not needed because in pugs you have people who are either good and can survive without help, or people who are terrible and explode inside of 5 seconds no matter what I do.
So I try to move on to team pvp. However, since I'm a FED eng, I get told to get bent, engies are worthless. Great. Now they make a change that not only makes my damage WORSE but makes escorts tanking BETTER. Even the first incarnation of the change was bad given the fact the virtually the only thing I had going was staying alive , but I had very little teeth. Opening a whole in my defenses removed my only perc.
So now I either have a hole in defense, being made up for worse damage than before, or a third of my ship going unused. I don't think its whining at all, but rather a valid complaint. And I have tested it, both 1v1 and 4v4, using different variations of layouts. In all cases now, an escort has very little trouble whittling me down and killing me, given also the leadership nerf. So not only is my only perk being survival gone, I have less teeth than before .
So now my options are to roll either a sci or a tac. I have one of each at 50, but no gear or rep. Even so, that is millions of ECs and Dil wasted, not to mention the time. Plus I cannot stand playing either one on the ground.
I though this might have been solved with LoR coming out I'd have to reroll anyway, but there ship layouts are so god awful and the cruiser turn rates are deplorable, I have no interest.
So....back to either a sci or a tac.....starting over. I am just kinda sticking around to see what happens with this release, but honestly? I think I'd rather just walk away entirely.
The only issue is that he still seems to be under the impression that you should "choose" which EPTx sub-power you want to build your ship around.
You pick a ship. You pick a Career (yeah, I know that's backward - but hey, the Ships are the Classes /cough). You pick your gear. You pick your BOFFs. You pick your DOFFs.
So somebody decides they want to play a Plate Wearing Juggernaut (yeah, we can't escape all the Fantasy stuff even in a Space MMO...meh). So they look at Cruisers. They then decide whether they want to be a little more Warrior or a little more Sorceror. So they're now looking at going down the "Assault" line or the "Star" line of Cruiser types. They make their choice.
With their Class, I mean Ship, in hand - they look at all the rest, eh? Do they want more "Warrior", more "Tank", more "Sorceror", etc, etc, etc and they pick their Career. They move on to the gear, BOFFs, DOFFs, etc.
With much of this, one has to consider how they're tackling it. Are they looking to min/max? Are they looking to compensate/balance? That they're putting the Tac in a Cruiser to begin with suggests compensating. Or it might in another game, since things are so out of whack here (my Engineers have better survival in an Escort than a Cruiser).
Regardless, there's a major difference between the two, no? The more one maximizes, the more one becomes dependent on others to cover the gaps created by specializing (well, again - /cough - in other games).
STO has diminishing returns, caps, etc, etc, etc in certain areas of the game - but not in other areas of the game. This throws certain things off, imho, and leads to a constant Yo-Yo battle as various bandaids and gimmicks are thrown into the mix.
So you've got the guy and he's looking at what he wants to do with those BOFF slots. For the most part, every choice made so far has involved an opportunity cost.
The EPtX abilities...2x EPtX involves an opportunity cost. 1x EPtX involves an opportunity cost. Multiple 1x EPtX abilities that aren't going to be chained involve an opportunity cost. What's the opportunity cost on EPtX/EPtY? The 2-3 DCE DOFFs? Having reached the point they have in ship selection et al - they've already reduced the available DOFF options available to them. Is there a real opportunity cost involved when comparing 100% uptime on EPtS/EPtW then? What about A2B? A2B functions best on certain ships - so perhaps in that even more limited realm, folks might decide between the DCE/A2B routes.
So I don't think (can't speak for Hawk) that it's about building the ship around the EPtX abilities as much as it is about having an opportunity cost for the abilities and having to think about when using them rather than just spamming them...
That brings us here, with Cruisers making out the worst of the lot with these changes.
That's where I think they need more information on the types of Cruisers that the changes affect.
I look at my two Eng healer alts in their Cruisers...a 5s or less gap every 40s is not much of a change.
Like I said though, both sides - need to communicate what's going on. The devs saying that it is fine - should give examples of builds where it is fine. The folks saying that it is not fine - should give examples of builds where it is not fine.
Then the two sides can go back and forth...work it out. Course, there's not much time left before LoR launches at this point...meh.
Which is the major head-scratcher with all of this...the part that has me gritting my teeth, hands in the air, and wanting to scream. I can't remember seeing a more inconsistent set of changes.
I still think they just need to split the abilities - cause they're trying to go two ways at the same time with one set. If they were to split them, perhaps it would make more sense.
Oh, people, you've gotten off track. The problem with the EPtX change isn't really the change itself (well, there are troubles there as well, but hardly as big), it's the fact that it makes cruisers redundant.
This change either diminishes your survivability in cruisers (if you still run twice EPtS/EPtX with 33% gaps) or whatever else you could easily run in your cruiser (if you choose just 2xEPtS with little downtime -> that would lead to me loosing EPtW, therefore greatly diminishing the damage my cruisers can do).
I find the discussion about how much full uptime on EPtS is needed as secondary to this (and I don't like to use this term) nerf of cruiser play. Sure it is important, and any meddling with EPtS is very important, but not as important as is shafting a third of all ships. (It would at least be equitable to get a 33% downtime on EPtS even when only using EPtS, then everyone would at least be in the same boat, - albeit an old rotting boat --> loosing full EPtS uptime wouldn't be pleasant.)
Then there's also the question of "how appropriate" the perpetual chaining of emergency abilities is, but honestly, that's really just a cosmetic issue (you could always rename them anyway).
Please, focus on the important, pressing matters: The current situation is not right, and there's no meaningful reasoning for it. That's why we wish a resolution before it hits Holodeck.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Oh, people, you've gotten off track. The problem with the EPtX change isn't really the change itself (well, there are troubles there as well, but hardly as big), it's the fact that it makes cruisers redundant.
Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX abilities. So that's not the case.
This change either diminishes your survivability in cruisers (if you still run twice EPtS/EPtX with 33% gaps) or whatever else you could easily run in your cruiser (if you choose just 2xEPtS with little downtime -> that would lead to me loosing EPtW, therefore greatly diminishing the damage my cruisers can do).
Again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
I find the discussion about how much full uptime on EPtS is needed as secondary to this (and I don't like to use this term) nerf of cruiser play. Sure it is important, and any meddling with EPtS is very important, but not as important as is shafting a third of all ships. (It would at least be equitable to get a 33% downtime on EPtS even when only using EPtS, then everyone would at least be in the same boat, - albeit an old rotting boat --> loosing full EPtS uptime wouldn't be pleasant.)
Once again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Then there's also the question of "how appropriate" the perpetual chaining of emergency abilities is, but honestly, that's really just a cosmetic issue (you could always rename them anyway).
Actually, the question/issue goes beyond the name.
Please, focus on the important, pressing matters: The current situation is not right, and there's no meaningful reasoning for it. That's why we wish a resolution before it hits Holodeck.
I'd like to know where they're actually thinking of taking this - the reasoning behind it. Whether it is part of a larger group of changes or if it is the only change. Based on that, I would be able to give proper feedback on the changes that have taken place. As they stand, yeah - it's befuddling. So some communication from them would be nifty and then we could move forward with this both in testing and pleading.
edit:
7 of my 8 guys run at least 2 EPtX abilities.
1 doesn't run any EPtX abilities.
3 of the 7 run 2x EPtS.
3 of the 7 run EPtS/EPtW.
1 runs EPtS & EPtA - using them as needed.
2 of the 3 that run 2x EPtS are in Cruisers.
1 of the 3 that run EPtS/EPtW is in a Carrier.
Of my 8 characters, this is the order in which they are most affected by this change:
The one running EPtS & EPtA - using them as needed.
The Carrier running EPtS/EPtW.
The 2 non-Carriers running EPtS/EPtW.
The non-Cruiser running 2x EPtS.
The 2 Cruisers running 2x EPtS.
The 1 not using any EPtX abilities.
Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX abilities. So that's not the case.
Again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Once again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Cruisers aren't the only ships using emergency power, but they are the ships that have the majority of their officer potential tied up in engineering. Science and tactical ships that are using two copies of EPTS as a matter of course for basic survivability are going to be minimally affected. They lose some sustained resistance but they get more frequent jolts of healing. Cruisers, which have a wealth of engineering and could previously rely twice as much on power boosts, are going to be impacted in a big way.
It makes sense to discuss this problem from the perspective of cruisers since they are the ones who stand to lose the most.
Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX abilities. So that's not the case.
Again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Once again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Cruisers are the only ships basically forced in some form of EPtS/EPtX combination. Of course, almost any ship in the game can use the Damage Control Engineer doffs, but that's a choice, not so much a necessity.
Actually, the question/issue goes beyond the name.
That's what you should have responded to my third paragraph, not the fourth one. By talking about the appropriateness of chaining perpetually EPtX, I merely meant (in this case), related to the name "emergency".
When it comes to the apropriateness of using pretty potent abilities back to back, and the original design intent, well then at least non cruiser ships shouldn't have an edge over cruisers, that (as engineering heavy) are intended for engineering powers. And certainly, what exactly should those engineering look like is "an issue/question that goes beyond the name".
Hope that clears it up.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Cruisers aren't the only ships using emergency power, but they are the ships that have the majority of their officer potential tied up in engineering. Science and tactical ships that are using two copies of EPTS as a matter of course for basic survivability are going to be minimally affected. They lose some sustained resistance but they get more frequent jolts of healing. Cruisers, which have a wealth of engineering and could previously rely twice as much on power boosts, are going to be impacted in a big way.
It makes sense to discuss this problem from the perspective of cruisers since they are the ones who stand to lose the most.
The Eng BOFF issue is a separate issue. Does this issue make that issue worse? In some cases it does.
Making this just about Cruisers though...isn't being honest about the situation. It's being selfish about the situation since it does affect anybody and everybody that is using the abilities - regardless of the ships they're flying. It can actually affect some worse because they've gone from a 15s gap to a 25s gap with the changes. Cruisers did not get the worst of this.
I'm all for addressing the Eng BOFF issues...it's one of my favorite topics.
There are 14 Eng BOFF abilities. There are 16 Tac and 18 Sci. There are 5 En Eng BOFF abilities where 4 of the 5 share a triggered CD and the 5th one shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Sci ability. There are 9 En Tac BOFF abilities - 6 of them trigger a CD with each other, 2 trigger a CD with each other, and 1 shares a triggered CD with an Eng/Sci ability. There are 8 En Sci BOFF abilities - 2 of them trigger CDs with each other and 1 shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Eng ability.
It's very difficult to deny that issue (though Cryptic has done a marvelous job ignoring it).
That doesn't change that EPtX changes affect everybody.
Why would anybody want to further split the community that is opposed to the changes by trying to separate everybody else out from those in Cruisers? it's very selfish and I daresay childish to do so...
The Eng BOFF issue is a separate issue. Does this issue make that issue worse? In some cases it does.
Making this just about Cruisers though...isn't being honest about the situation. It's being selfish about the situation since it does affect anybody and everybody that is using the abilities - regardless of the ships they're flying. It can actually affect some worse because they've gone from a 15s gap to a 25s gap with the changes. Cruisers did not get the worst of this.
I'm all for addressing the Eng BOFF issues...it's one of my favorite topics.
There are 14 Eng BOFF abilities. There are 16 Tac and 18 Sci. There are 5 En Eng BOFF abilities where 4 of the 5 share a triggered CD and the 5th one shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Sci ability. There are 9 En Tac BOFF abilities - 6 of them trigger a CD with each other, 2 trigger a CD with each other, and 1 shares a triggered CD with an Eng/Sci ability. There are 8 En Sci BOFF abilities - 2 of them trigger CDs with each other and 1 shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Eng ability.
It's very difficult to deny that issue (though Cryptic has done a marvelous job ignoring it).
That doesn't change that EPtX changes affect everybody.
Why would anybody want to further split the community that is opposed to the changes by trying to separate everybody else out from those in Cruisers? it's very selfish and I daresay childish to do so...
This change doesn't affect those players using only one or 2 copies of a single EPtX (except for a 5s hole when using 2). That is the majority of Tac and Sci focused ships.
It is only logical to look at the current state on Tribble (I know you insist there might be other stuff coming, but I can't count on it, I don't know anything about it; waiting for it would most likely mean weeks of this state on holodeck, that's what I'm trying to avoid) as very detrimental to cruisers, and that was the major point of this mine thread.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Cruisers are the only ships basically forced in some form of EPtS/EPtX combination. Of course, almost any ship in the game can use the Damage Control Engineer doffs, but that's a choice, not so much a necessity.
Picking a Cruiser is a choice... you can't dismiss something as a choice while ignoring something else was a choice as well.
But as I've stated elsewhere (and even in this thread) - the issue about being forced to pick EPtX abilities existed before these changes.
EPtA1, EPtE1, EPtS1, EPtW1, ET1
When those are your only choices...those are your only choices. This change didn't change that.
This...EPtA1, EPtE1, EPtS1, EPtW1, ET1...needs to be fixed regardless of the changes.
That's what you should have responded to my third paragraph, not the fourth one. By talking about the appropriateness of chaining perpetually EPtX, I merely meant (in this case), related to the name "emergency".
The majority of that third paragraph - the entirety of it - was in regard to Cruisers. The name of the abilities are not related to Cruisers. So I split it out and quoted/replied as I did.
Not everybody has the same issue with it. Some see "Emergency Power to" as being something that should be used as an Emergency. Some would be fine with changing the name. Others don't care if they were called "Grapefruit Casserole to"...it's the ability to chain something at 100%. The opportunity cost on that is very low - because there's simply no other abilities that one really can use.
If there were abilities and people were deciding to use one over the other in that fashion...then they're giving up something. En Eng...there's just nothing to give up.
When it comes to the apropriateness of using pretty potent abilities back to back, and the original design intent, well then at least non cruiser ships shouldn't have an edge over cruisers, that (as engineering heavy) are intended for engineering powers. And certainly, what exactly should those engineering look like is "an issue/question that goes beyond the name".
The Cruiser technically do have an edge over other ships when it comes to Engineering BOFFs (much like an Escort does with Tac and a Sci with Sci). But that edge is broken because of the limited choices at Ensign for Engineering BOFFs. That edge isn't broken for Tac or Sci. It's definitely broken for Cruisers.
Again, this makes that issue worse...but while that issue is a solely Cruiser issue, this isn't.
Not everybody has the same issue with it. Some see "Emergency Power to" as being something that should be used as an Emergency.
I would say being in a fight qualifies as an emergency, so they're borrowing the power normally used for things like running the Transdigital Freon Converter, the terlets, the lights, the life support, the holodecks, etc. None of these things has any game relevance, so the power appears to thus come from nowhere. If you were to run these things forever, you could, but everyone would starve when there is no power for the replicators and the entire ship would smell like TRIBBLE as people have to take to peeing in the corridors because there is no power to beam away all the TRIBBLE.
This change doesn't affect those players using only one or 2 copies of a single EPtX (except for a 5s hole when using 2). That is the majority of Tac and Sci focused ships.
Ahem...
A single copy of an EPtX ability currently has a 15s gap. On Tribble, a single copy of an EPtX ability will have a 25s gap.
The person running 2x EPtX or EPtX/EPtY on Tribble will still have a lower CD than the single EPtX person has on Holodeck...and that single EPtX person will be looking at a CD that is 5x that of the 2x EPtX and 2.5x that of the EPtX/EPtY guy.
The 2x EPtX person will have to cover 5s or less.
The EPtX/EPtY person will have to cover 10s.
The EPtX person will have to cover 25s.
The EPtX person was already covering the new Tribble combined gap of the 2x EPtX & EPtX/EPtY people combined while on Holodeck. Now they're being asked to cover a 25s gap while the 2x EPtX folks see 5s or less every 40s and the EPtX/EPtY folks see 10s every 20s.
It is only logical to look at the current state on Tribble (I know you insist there might be other stuff coming, but I can't count on it, I don't know anything about it; waiting for it would most likely mean weeks of this state on holodeck, that's what I'm trying to avoid) as very detrimental to cruisers, and that was the major point of this mine thread.
But it's no more detrimental to a Cruiser than anybody else...
...the issue with EPtX2 and EPtX3 existed before this change.
Anybody that was chaining EPtS/EPtW is going to lose damage. If anything, because of the way that the modifier actually works - the Cruiser is going to lose less damage than the Escort.
A nifty complaint might be about the loss of 10s of power on the EPtW and how that is going to reduce the overall damage one is able to do from that loss of power. Even there, that's still not going to be a Cruiser only thing.
The changes are potentially detrimental to a wide group of people.
I really don't see the point of trying to make a separate thread and treating it as if it doesn't.
That's like seeing a box of kittens and puppies about to get swept into a raging river, grabbing the kittens, and saying 'eff the puppies.
I would say being in a fight qualifies as an emergency, so they're borrowing the power normally used for things like running the Transdigital Freon Converter, the terlets, the lights, the life support, the holodecks, etc. None of these things has any game relevance, so the power appears to thus come from nowhere. If you were to run these things forever, you could, but everyone would starve when there is no power for the replicators and the entire ship would smell like TRIBBLE as people have to take to peeing in the corridors because there is no power to beam away all the TRIBBLE.
that right there
when you go into a combat situation in a ship like the galaxy class you can get excess power from the science labs, schools, civilian promenade, life support, unused transporters, holodecks, food replicators, stellar cartography, engineering labs, unused lights, evacuate certain decks and reroute power form them (which with civilians on board they would have designated safe areas which where even shown in TNG)
heck in the name bothers you just rename them them to "reroute power" instead of "emergency power"
I would say being in a fight qualifies as an emergency, so they're borrowing the power normally used for things like running the Transdigital Freon Converter, the terlets, the lights, the life support, the holodecks, etc. None of these things has any game relevance, so the power appears to thus come from nowhere. If you were to run these things forever, you could, but everyone would starve when there is no power for the replicators and the entire ship would smell like TRIBBLE as people have to take to peeing in the corridors because there is no power to beam away all the TRIBBLE.
Heh, all the magic power that comes from nowhere...that's an interesting discussion - but perhaps too far off topic? Or not - some have suggested there should be "Emergency Power" pools that work something along the lines of what they're doing with the Singularity mechanic...though somewhat in reverse.
Regens faster out of combat.
Slower regen in combat.
Drained on the use of an EPtX ability.
CDs between the use of those abilities.
Funny how well, imho, the Singularity stuff could have worked for the EPtX stuff.
Something that all ships would have, etc, etc, etc...better than working them like the Subsystem Targeting thing of Sci Vessels.
Of course, would need 6-8 Eng BOFF abilities to replace the loss of them.
The Cruiser technically do have an edge over other ships when it comes to Engineering BOFFs (much like an Escort does with Tac and a Sci with Sci). But that edge is broken because of the limited choices at Ensign for Engineering BOFFs. That edge isn't broken for Tac or Sci. It's definitely broken for Cruisers.
Again, this makes that issue worse...but while that issue is a solely Cruiser issue, this isn't.
Of course the basic fault that leads to the current problem is the Ens Eng very limited selection of powers, but I don't have hope of them changing that in the next couple years.
If you tie the current problem in this original fault, it will not get solved before they make new Ens eng abilities. <-- That's very unlikely to happen. If you think the current problem will force them to do it, I fear you're overly optimistic. Instead, we'd likely end up with the current problem for a very long time.
I am trying to push them to at least fix the current problem, there is yet hope for that, I believe. I'm just trying to be realistic and at least keep the current (holodeck) situation instead of passing through months waiting for an update while flying gimped cruisers.
When, if, they're ready to release new Ens Eng abilities, then let them try this "limitation" of running several different EPtX again. I'll be glad to test it and give feedback. But that's not what we have on Tribble.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
that is completely untrue here. you have to actually pvp, and pvp a lot, to see how things really are. its so clear that the systems team doesn't do enough, or possibly any, its reflected in their bone head approach to try to balance these EPt changes. all they accomplished was several killing blows to cruisers, and buffs to escorts. and they would have actually known that if they played their game were the margins are close and the extremes are everything. you dont pvp? well, that explained a lot about your arguments.
I have never supported the current implementation that harms cruisers. I have posted time and time again that all it does is nerf cruisers and buff escorts.
I have supported the original implementation where everyone got nerfed. Which when you nerf survivability that hammer hits the ships with the least amount...the hardest.
And no you do not have to PvP to understand it in this game. I have watched videos and read the forums I fully understand how it works. It is also why I have absolutely no interest in it.
I would neither enjoy the current forced organized meta snooze fest waiting for three subnukes to do anything productive, nor would I enjoy abusing the absolutely awful mechanics some things have in the name of victory such as SS Doffs. Not my idea of an enjoyable experience. I'd much rather log onto EVE or even Smite if I need to scratch my pvp itch. I play STO because it is casual.
Can't say I disagree with the EPtX change. Why should there be standard buffs to rotate over and over without any vulnerability inbetween? And before the whining starts, no, I do not mean Eng/Sci/Tac team with 2x VR doffs. No go OP, I disagree completely on your complaints.
Of course the basic fault that leads to the current problem is the Ens Eng very limited selection of powers, but I don't have hope of them changing that in the next couple years.
They've had so long...meh.
There's been things said by folks that had lunch with folks, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I don't think it's going to make it into LoR at this point or we would have seen it. Likely one of those that things that work started on - was going along - then got cut. Lots of things have been cut from LoR already so they could make the deadline. It's not that much different from the launch of the game (or pretty much almost any product - there's a deadline, stuff gets cut).
If you tie the current problem in this original fault, it will not get solved before they make new Ens eng abilities. <-- That's very unlikely to happen. If you think the current problem will force them to do it, I fear you're overly optimistic. Instead, we'd likely end up with the current problem for a very long time.
I believe it is a case that...there's internal issues at Cryptic in regard to how things should work. In several of the recent podcasts (well, this year) above and beyond the normal discussions on the game - we've gotten far more insight into how things at Cryptic work. With that, it became clear how certain good ideas will never see the light of day...even if they originate from within Cryptic itself.
I am trying to push them to at least fix the current problem, there is yet hope for that, I believe. I'm just trying to be realistic and at least keep the current (holodeck) situation instead of passing through months waiting for an update while flying gimped cruisers.
And with that, I'm right there with you on them keeping the Holodeck version and shelving the Tribble thing until it's fleshed out, worked out, etc, etc, etc...and then you say Cruisers again. I only fly two Cruisers (2 Escorts, Escort Carrier, Carrier, Sci Vessel, BoP, and 2 Cruisers). Those two Cruisers are the least affected of my seven guys that use EPtX abilities. The Carrier guy is one of the most affected, so I can see where Tac Cruisers are getting hit with this. That's why I've even mentioned in several threads that folks make that distinction - because there is a difference between the 2x EPtS Cruiser and the EPtS/EPtW Cruiser. One is looking at 5s or less of a gap, while the other is looking at a 10s gap on the EPtS and not only a 10s gap on the EPtW - but also a loss of DPS because of losing 10s of +Pwr with how drain mechanics work.
When, if, they're ready to release new Ens Eng abilities, then let them try this "limitation" of running several different EPtX again. I'll be glad to test it and give feedback. But that's not what we have on Tribble.
That sounds perfect. I completely agree with that. I'm nobody special in the least, my agreement doesn't mean any more than anybody else agreeing with that...but I completely agree with that.
Can't say I disagree with the EPtX change. Why should there be standard buffs to rotate over and over without any vulnerability inbetween? And before the whining starts, no, I do not mean Eng/Sci/Tac team with 2x VR doffs. No go OP, I disagree completely on your complaints.
Which...if this were the issue that the devs were actually addressing...would be one thing.
The problem is...that's not what the changes accomplish.
Tada, part of the uproar and the complaints that have arisen over the changes.
Can't say I disagree with the EPtX change. Why should there be standard buffs to rotate over and over without any vulnerability inbetween? And before the whining starts, no, I do not mean Eng/Sci/Tac team with 2x VR doffs. No go OP, I disagree completely on your complaints.
This change still allows to cycle 2xEPtS, or 2xEPtA, or 2xEPtW, or 2xEPtE with only 5s of downtime every 45s. But it penalizes you with 33% downtime if you choose different EPtX, that's the problem.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
This has been addressed to death and has long become ridiculous. I see all those posts screaming 'give us balance' and every bit of that balancing seems to require some form of nerf to everything not cruiser, or buff to everything cruiser. If you want to cycle 2 different EPtX powers, why shouldn't there be a downtime? After all, the bridge crew would be switching their tasks, now wouldn't they? If the downtime is the only problem, cover it with something else. HE/TSS seem to work just fine.
See, toiva...this is kind of an example of what I was saying about splitting out Cruiser and how it can lead folks not to reading what is being said (something I even did with that paragraph back there, meh)...
This has been addressed to death and has long become ridiculous. I see all those posts screaming 'give us balance' and every bit of that balancing seems to require some form of nerf to everything not cruiser, or buff to everything cruiser. If you want to cycle 2 different EPtX powers, why shouldn't there be a downtime? After all, the bridge crew would be switching their tasks, now wouldn't they? If the downtime is the only problem, cover it with something else. HE/TSS seem to work just fine.
Why should there be a 10s gap for cycling EPtX/EPtY every 20s while there is only a 5s gap for cycling 2x EPtX...much less a 25s gap for cycling a single EPtX?
If you were pushing for balance - wouldn't the gaps be the same for the 2x EPtX and the EPtX/EPtY guys? Wouldn't the single EPtX guy not have a gap that's 5s longer than the ability in comparison to the other guys?
And with that, I'm right there with you on them keeping the Holodeck version and shelving the Tribble thing until it's fleshed out, worked out, etc, etc, etc...and then you say Cruisers again. I only fly two Cruisers (2 Escorts, Escort Carrier, Carrier, Sci Vessel, BoP, and 2 Cruisers). Those two Cruisers are the least affected of my seven guys that use EPtX abilities. The Carrier guy is one of the most affected, so I can see where Tac Cruisers are getting hit with this. That's why I've even mentioned in several threads that folks make that distinction - because there is a difference between the 2x EPtS Cruiser and the EPtS/EPtW Cruiser. One is looking at 5s or less of a gap, while the other is looking at a 10s gap on the EPtS and not only a 10s gap on the EPtW - but also a loss of DPS because of losing 10s of +Pwr with how drain mechanics work.
Well, here's the difference between us, all my ships cycle 2xEPtS and 2xEPtW or 1xEPtS and 1xEPtW with DCE doffs. And that's over a dozen builds. And I specifically like flying cruisers.
Therefore this change affects all of my ships. But on all of my ships except cruisers, I'll most likely slap 2xEPtS and be done with it. (Yeah, I'll probably spend some time wondering on the more defensively apt ones if I can still somehow fit another one, but you get the picture.) Then remain cruisers; you see why I stress cruisers so much.
And I guess we'll always disagree on that part. I'm just happy you agree the current iteration shouldn't get on Holodeck, which realistically would mean just quickly restoring EPtX to where they were (there's definitely not enough time for them to get new Ens Eng abilities done for LoR, and all of current Tribble will go live with LoR).
EDIT: (In response of Arxial's post and your comment)
I see I wasn't right thinking "Nerf to cruisers" would be more popular than "Messing of EPtX powers". That I'm sorry for. However, I still see it falling far, far heavier on cruisers. I see that as a fact, and it's not gonna change.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Then perhaps this is the ingame representation of DS9's famous little diatribe where Sisko states that cruisers are outdated, as well they should be. A penalization on swapping similiar powers isn't uncommon in MMO's, and I don't see it being a great problem here unless a person relies SOLELY on swapping EPtX/Y's. Unless one just so happens to be uncomfortable about any changes whatsoever.
Then perhaps this is the ingame representation of DS9's famous little diatribe where Sisko states that cruisers are outdated, as well they should be. A penalization on swapping similiar powers isn't uncommon in MMO's, and I don't see it being a great problem here unless a person relies SOLELY on swapping EPtX/Y's. Unless one just so happens to be uncomfortable about any changes whatsoever.
I fear I can't let cruisers go into oblivion without a fight, hence this thread.
And as I see it, cruisers indeed rely on EPtX/EPtY cycling because there's nothing else to put in those low eng slots (and that's unlikely to change anytime soon).
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Comments
EPtS1, RSP1, EWP1, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
ET1
EPtS1, AtB1, EWP1, DEM3
EPtW1, AtB1, RSP2
EPtA1
EPtE1, BP1, AtS2, EWP3
EPtE1, AtD1, RSP2
ET1
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, AtD1, RSP2
EPtS1
EPtE1, EPtS2, AtB2, AB3
EPtA1, RSP1, AtB2
ET1
I can keep going - but in the end, it's no different than the argument being made now that there are not enough Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities.
Having only five available at Ensign, where four of those are on a triggered CD with each other and the fifth one is on a triggered CD with a Tac and Sci ability...is broken.
Somebody saying that their 4x EPtX/Y/Z build is going to be broken with the changes is /facepalm to me...because I'd say their 3x EPtX/Y/Z builds are already broken. They're already wasting slots. If they don't believe they are, then I'm not sure how they can make the complaint that these changes would.
I'd love to see more EPtX2 and EPtX3...but because of only having those five abilities at Ensign...it's broken, imho.
I still think that PH, HE, and TSS should be moved from Sci to Eng. I still think TSS/ExS need to have their mechanics reworked so that TSS actually transfers shield strength and extend shields actually extends shields. I still think AB should be moved from Eng to Sci. I still think some of the Lt Sci abilities should be lowered in rank so they're En Sci abilities.
I think too many things are looked at in isolation and that causes more problems than anything...
that is completely untrue here. you have to actually pvp, and pvp a lot, to see how things really are. its so clear that the systems team doesn't do enough, or possibly any, its reflected in their bone head approach to try to balance these EPt changes. all they accomplished was several killing blows to cruisers, and buffs to escorts. and they would have actually known that if they played their game were the margins are close and the extremes are everything. you dont pvp? well, that explained a lot about your arguments.
Dude got reamed...folks went off on him. He made a miscalculation in regard to the downtime and folks went off...he corrected it, tried to explain it, even joked about it some, left a post there as a mark of shame, tried to be...tried to take the high road, mea culpa - etc, etc, etc...and he got reamed.
I'd think twice about posting again in his position. Same thing kind of went on with JamJamz.
There are many things that can be done. It's only spamming if it is the same thing. Otherwise, anything that anybody does could be considered spamming - even if they never repeat the same thing.
I don't want to see any dev get treated unfairly.
At the same time, you should have the CDs of powers memorized if you are actively making changes to such critical elements as cooldowns.
He made a mistake, it happens.
He owned up to it like a champ, and then he went ahead and put forth a change to make EPTx powers conform to that gap he originally seemed to have intended.
The only issue is that he still seems to be under the impression that you should "choose" which EPTx sub-power you want to build your ship around.
That brings us here, with Cruisers making out the worst of the lot with these changes.
With stated goals being countered by the changes.
I am a pvper. I have been since I was bitten by the pvp bug back in the later days of UO and the early days of darke age of camelot. I am also a min/maxer. I just find it enjoyable to refine builds constantly to get the absolute most out of them.
Like most mmos, this games real content doesn't begin until high level, so I spent much of the time learning the game, builds, etc. Now I have my eng ready for pvp with max rep, high end gear and a solid build. Specced for healing and support, I start with pugs. Only to find out I am not needed because in pugs you have people who are either good and can survive without help, or people who are terrible and explode inside of 5 seconds no matter what I do.
So I try to move on to team pvp. However, since I'm a FED eng, I get told to get bent, engies are worthless. Great. Now they make a change that not only makes my damage WORSE but makes escorts tanking BETTER. Even the first incarnation of the change was bad given the fact the virtually the only thing I had going was staying alive , but I had very little teeth. Opening a whole in my defenses removed my only perc.
So now I either have a hole in defense, being made up for worse damage than before, or a third of my ship going unused. I don't think its whining at all, but rather a valid complaint. And I have tested it, both 1v1 and 4v4, using different variations of layouts. In all cases now, an escort has very little trouble whittling me down and killing me, given also the leadership nerf. So not only is my only perk being survival gone, I have less teeth than before .
So now my options are to roll either a sci or a tac. I have one of each at 50, but no gear or rep. Even so, that is millions of ECs and Dil wasted, not to mention the time. Plus I cannot stand playing either one on the ground.
I though this might have been solved with LoR coming out I'd have to reroll anyway, but there ship layouts are so god awful and the cruiser turn rates are deplorable, I have no interest.
So....back to either a sci or a tac.....starting over. I am just kinda sticking around to see what happens with this release, but honestly? I think I'd rather just walk away entirely.
You pick a ship. You pick a Career (yeah, I know that's backward - but hey, the Ships are the Classes /cough). You pick your gear. You pick your BOFFs. You pick your DOFFs.
So somebody decides they want to play a Plate Wearing Juggernaut (yeah, we can't escape all the Fantasy stuff even in a Space MMO...meh). So they look at Cruisers. They then decide whether they want to be a little more Warrior or a little more Sorceror. So they're now looking at going down the "Assault" line or the "Star" line of Cruiser types. They make their choice.
With their Class, I mean Ship, in hand - they look at all the rest, eh? Do they want more "Warrior", more "Tank", more "Sorceror", etc, etc, etc and they pick their Career. They move on to the gear, BOFFs, DOFFs, etc.
With much of this, one has to consider how they're tackling it. Are they looking to min/max? Are they looking to compensate/balance? That they're putting the Tac in a Cruiser to begin with suggests compensating. Or it might in another game, since things are so out of whack here (my Engineers have better survival in an Escort than a Cruiser).
Regardless, there's a major difference between the two, no? The more one maximizes, the more one becomes dependent on others to cover the gaps created by specializing (well, again - /cough - in other games).
STO has diminishing returns, caps, etc, etc, etc in certain areas of the game - but not in other areas of the game. This throws certain things off, imho, and leads to a constant Yo-Yo battle as various bandaids and gimmicks are thrown into the mix.
So you've got the guy and he's looking at what he wants to do with those BOFF slots. For the most part, every choice made so far has involved an opportunity cost.
The EPtX abilities...2x EPtX involves an opportunity cost. 1x EPtX involves an opportunity cost. Multiple 1x EPtX abilities that aren't going to be chained involve an opportunity cost. What's the opportunity cost on EPtX/EPtY? The 2-3 DCE DOFFs? Having reached the point they have in ship selection et al - they've already reduced the available DOFF options available to them. Is there a real opportunity cost involved when comparing 100% uptime on EPtS/EPtW then? What about A2B? A2B functions best on certain ships - so perhaps in that even more limited realm, folks might decide between the DCE/A2B routes.
So I don't think (can't speak for Hawk) that it's about building the ship around the EPtX abilities as much as it is about having an opportunity cost for the abilities and having to think about when using them rather than just spamming them...
That's where I think they need more information on the types of Cruisers that the changes affect.
I look at my two Eng healer alts in their Cruisers...a 5s or less gap every 40s is not much of a change.
Like I said though, both sides - need to communicate what's going on. The devs saying that it is fine - should give examples of builds where it is fine. The folks saying that it is not fine - should give examples of builds where it is not fine.
Then the two sides can go back and forth...work it out. Course, there's not much time left before LoR launches at this point...meh.
Which is the major head-scratcher with all of this...the part that has me gritting my teeth, hands in the air, and wanting to scream. I can't remember seeing a more inconsistent set of changes.
I still think they just need to split the abilities - cause they're trying to go two ways at the same time with one set. If they were to split them, perhaps it would make more sense.
This change either diminishes your survivability in cruisers (if you still run twice EPtS/EPtX with 33% gaps) or whatever else you could easily run in your cruiser (if you choose just 2xEPtS with little downtime -> that would lead to me loosing EPtW, therefore greatly diminishing the damage my cruisers can do).
I find the discussion about how much full uptime on EPtS is needed as secondary to this (and I don't like to use this term) nerf of cruiser play. Sure it is important, and any meddling with EPtS is very important, but not as important as is shafting a third of all ships. (It would at least be equitable to get a 33% downtime on EPtS even when only using EPtS, then everyone would at least be in the same boat, - albeit an old rotting boat --> loosing full EPtS uptime wouldn't be pleasant.)
Then there's also the question of "how appropriate" the perpetual chaining of emergency abilities is, but honestly, that's really just a cosmetic issue (you could always rename them anyway).
Please, focus on the important, pressing matters: The current situation is not right, and there's no meaningful reasoning for it. That's why we wish a resolution before it hits Holodeck.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX abilities. So that's not the case.
Again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Once again, Cruisers aren't the only vessels that use EPtX.
Actually, the question/issue goes beyond the name.
I'd like to know where they're actually thinking of taking this - the reasoning behind it. Whether it is part of a larger group of changes or if it is the only change. Based on that, I would be able to give proper feedback on the changes that have taken place. As they stand, yeah - it's befuddling. So some communication from them would be nifty and then we could move forward with this both in testing and pleading.
edit:
7 of my 8 guys run at least 2 EPtX abilities.
1 doesn't run any EPtX abilities.
3 of the 7 run 2x EPtS.
3 of the 7 run EPtS/EPtW.
1 runs EPtS & EPtA - using them as needed.
2 of the 3 that run 2x EPtS are in Cruisers.
1 of the 3 that run EPtS/EPtW is in a Carrier.
Of my 8 characters, this is the order in which they are most affected by this change:
The one running EPtS & EPtA - using them as needed.
The Carrier running EPtS/EPtW.
The 2 non-Carriers running EPtS/EPtW.
The non-Cruiser running 2x EPtS.
The 2 Cruisers running 2x EPtS.
The 1 not using any EPtX abilities.
Cruisers aren't the only ships using emergency power, but they are the ships that have the majority of their officer potential tied up in engineering. Science and tactical ships that are using two copies of EPTS as a matter of course for basic survivability are going to be minimally affected. They lose some sustained resistance but they get more frequent jolts of healing. Cruisers, which have a wealth of engineering and could previously rely twice as much on power boosts, are going to be impacted in a big way.
It makes sense to discuss this problem from the perspective of cruisers since they are the ones who stand to lose the most.
Cruisers are the only ships basically forced in some form of EPtS/EPtX combination. Of course, almost any ship in the game can use the Damage Control Engineer doffs, but that's a choice, not so much a necessity.
That's what you should have responded to my third paragraph, not the fourth one. By talking about the appropriateness of chaining perpetually EPtX, I merely meant (in this case), related to the name "emergency".
When it comes to the apropriateness of using pretty potent abilities back to back, and the original design intent, well then at least non cruiser ships shouldn't have an edge over cruisers, that (as engineering heavy) are intended for engineering powers. And certainly, what exactly should those engineering look like is "an issue/question that goes beyond the name".
Hope that clears it up.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
The Eng BOFF issue is a separate issue. Does this issue make that issue worse? In some cases it does.
Making this just about Cruisers though...isn't being honest about the situation. It's being selfish about the situation since it does affect anybody and everybody that is using the abilities - regardless of the ships they're flying. It can actually affect some worse because they've gone from a 15s gap to a 25s gap with the changes. Cruisers did not get the worst of this.
I'm all for addressing the Eng BOFF issues...it's one of my favorite topics.
There are 14 Eng BOFF abilities. There are 16 Tac and 18 Sci. There are 5 En Eng BOFF abilities where 4 of the 5 share a triggered CD and the 5th one shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Sci ability. There are 9 En Tac BOFF abilities - 6 of them trigger a CD with each other, 2 trigger a CD with each other, and 1 shares a triggered CD with an Eng/Sci ability. There are 8 En Sci BOFF abilities - 2 of them trigger CDs with each other and 1 shares a triggered CD with a Tac/Eng ability.
It's very difficult to deny that issue (though Cryptic has done a marvelous job ignoring it).
That doesn't change that EPtX changes affect everybody.
Why would anybody want to further split the community that is opposed to the changes by trying to separate everybody else out from those in Cruisers? it's very selfish and I daresay childish to do so...
This change doesn't affect those players using only one or 2 copies of a single EPtX (except for a 5s hole when using 2). That is the majority of Tac and Sci focused ships.
It is only logical to look at the current state on Tribble (I know you insist there might be other stuff coming, but I can't count on it, I don't know anything about it; waiting for it would most likely mean weeks of this state on holodeck, that's what I'm trying to avoid) as very detrimental to cruisers, and that was the major point of this mine thread.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Picking a Cruiser is a choice... you can't dismiss something as a choice while ignoring something else was a choice as well.
But as I've stated elsewhere (and even in this thread) - the issue about being forced to pick EPtX abilities existed before these changes.
EPtA1, EPtE1, EPtS1, EPtW1, ET1
When those are your only choices...those are your only choices. This change didn't change that.
This...EPtA1, EPtE1, EPtS1, EPtW1, ET1...needs to be fixed regardless of the changes.
The majority of that third paragraph - the entirety of it - was in regard to Cruisers. The name of the abilities are not related to Cruisers. So I split it out and quoted/replied as I did.
Not everybody has the same issue with it. Some see "Emergency Power to" as being something that should be used as an Emergency. Some would be fine with changing the name. Others don't care if they were called "Grapefruit Casserole to"...it's the ability to chain something at 100%. The opportunity cost on that is very low - because there's simply no other abilities that one really can use.
If there were abilities and people were deciding to use one over the other in that fashion...then they're giving up something. En Eng...there's just nothing to give up.
The Cruiser technically do have an edge over other ships when it comes to Engineering BOFFs (much like an Escort does with Tac and a Sci with Sci). But that edge is broken because of the limited choices at Ensign for Engineering BOFFs. That edge isn't broken for Tac or Sci. It's definitely broken for Cruisers.
Again, this makes that issue worse...but while that issue is a solely Cruiser issue, this isn't.
Ahem...
A single copy of an EPtX ability currently has a 15s gap. On Tribble, a single copy of an EPtX ability will have a 25s gap.
The person running 2x EPtX or EPtX/EPtY on Tribble will still have a lower CD than the single EPtX person has on Holodeck...and that single EPtX person will be looking at a CD that is 5x that of the 2x EPtX and 2.5x that of the EPtX/EPtY guy.
The 2x EPtX person will have to cover 5s or less.
The EPtX/EPtY person will have to cover 10s.
The EPtX person will have to cover 25s.
The EPtX person was already covering the new Tribble combined gap of the 2x EPtX & EPtX/EPtY people combined while on Holodeck. Now they're being asked to cover a 25s gap while the 2x EPtX folks see 5s or less every 40s and the EPtX/EPtY folks see 10s every 20s.
But it's no more detrimental to a Cruiser than anybody else...
...the issue with EPtX2 and EPtX3 existed before this change.
Anybody that was chaining EPtS/EPtW is going to lose damage. If anything, because of the way that the modifier actually works - the Cruiser is going to lose less damage than the Escort.
A nifty complaint might be about the loss of 10s of power on the EPtW and how that is going to reduce the overall damage one is able to do from that loss of power. Even there, that's still not going to be a Cruiser only thing.
The changes are potentially detrimental to a wide group of people.
I really don't see the point of trying to make a separate thread and treating it as if it doesn't.
That's like seeing a box of kittens and puppies about to get swept into a raging river, grabbing the kittens, and saying 'eff the puppies.
Typing something repeatedly doesn't magically make it true.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
that right there
when you go into a combat situation in a ship like the galaxy class you can get excess power from the science labs, schools, civilian promenade, life support, unused transporters, holodecks, food replicators, stellar cartography, engineering labs, unused lights, evacuate certain decks and reroute power form them (which with civilians on board they would have designated safe areas which where even shown in TNG)
heck in the name bothers you just rename them them to "reroute power" instead of "emergency power"
Heh, all the magic power that comes from nowhere...that's an interesting discussion - but perhaps too far off topic? Or not - some have suggested there should be "Emergency Power" pools that work something along the lines of what they're doing with the Singularity mechanic...though somewhat in reverse.
Regens faster out of combat.
Slower regen in combat.
Drained on the use of an EPtX ability.
CDs between the use of those abilities.
Funny how well, imho, the Singularity stuff could have worked for the EPtX stuff.
Something that all ships would have, etc, etc, etc...better than working them like the Subsystem Targeting thing of Sci Vessels.
Of course, would need 6-8 Eng BOFF abilities to replace the loss of them.
Of course the basic fault that leads to the current problem is the Ens Eng very limited selection of powers, but I don't have hope of them changing that in the next couple years.
If you tie the current problem in this original fault, it will not get solved before they make new Ens eng abilities. <-- That's very unlikely to happen. If you think the current problem will force them to do it, I fear you're overly optimistic. Instead, we'd likely end up with the current problem for a very long time.
I am trying to push them to at least fix the current problem, there is yet hope for that, I believe. I'm just trying to be realistic and at least keep the current (holodeck) situation instead of passing through months waiting for an update while flying gimped cruisers.
When, if, they're ready to release new Ens Eng abilities, then let them try this "limitation" of running several different EPtX again. I'll be glad to test it and give feedback. But that's not what we have on Tribble.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
And yet some Cruiser people that persist in typing things repeatedly...just don't get that, eh?
Weird...huh...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9370711#post9370711
I have never supported the current implementation that harms cruisers. I have posted time and time again that all it does is nerf cruisers and buff escorts.
I have supported the original implementation where everyone got nerfed. Which when you nerf survivability that hammer hits the ships with the least amount...the hardest.
And no you do not have to PvP to understand it in this game. I have watched videos and read the forums I fully understand how it works. It is also why I have absolutely no interest in it.
I would neither enjoy the current forced organized meta snooze fest waiting for three subnukes to do anything productive, nor would I enjoy abusing the absolutely awful mechanics some things have in the name of victory such as SS Doffs. Not my idea of an enjoyable experience. I'd much rather log onto EVE or even Smite if I need to scratch my pvp itch. I play STO because it is casual.
They've had so long...meh.
There's been things said by folks that had lunch with folks, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I don't think it's going to make it into LoR at this point or we would have seen it. Likely one of those that things that work started on - was going along - then got cut. Lots of things have been cut from LoR already so they could make the deadline. It's not that much different from the launch of the game (or pretty much almost any product - there's a deadline, stuff gets cut).
I believe it is a case that...there's internal issues at Cryptic in regard to how things should work. In several of the recent podcasts (well, this year) above and beyond the normal discussions on the game - we've gotten far more insight into how things at Cryptic work. With that, it became clear how certain good ideas will never see the light of day...even if they originate from within Cryptic itself.
And with that, I'm right there with you on them keeping the Holodeck version and shelving the Tribble thing until it's fleshed out, worked out, etc, etc, etc...and then you say Cruisers again. I only fly two Cruisers (2 Escorts, Escort Carrier, Carrier, Sci Vessel, BoP, and 2 Cruisers). Those two Cruisers are the least affected of my seven guys that use EPtX abilities. The Carrier guy is one of the most affected, so I can see where Tac Cruisers are getting hit with this. That's why I've even mentioned in several threads that folks make that distinction - because there is a difference between the 2x EPtS Cruiser and the EPtS/EPtW Cruiser. One is looking at 5s or less of a gap, while the other is looking at a 10s gap on the EPtS and not only a 10s gap on the EPtW - but also a loss of DPS because of losing 10s of +Pwr with how drain mechanics work.
That sounds perfect. I completely agree with that. I'm nobody special in the least, my agreement doesn't mean any more than anybody else agreeing with that...but I completely agree with that.
Which...if this were the issue that the devs were actually addressing...would be one thing.
The problem is...that's not what the changes accomplish.
Tada, part of the uproar and the complaints that have arisen over the changes.
This change still allows to cycle 2xEPtS, or 2xEPtA, or 2xEPtW, or 2xEPtE with only 5s of downtime every 45s. But it penalizes you with 33% downtime if you choose different EPtX, that's the problem.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Why should there be a 10s gap for cycling EPtX/EPtY every 20s while there is only a 5s gap for cycling 2x EPtX...much less a 25s gap for cycling a single EPtX?
If you were pushing for balance - wouldn't the gaps be the same for the 2x EPtX and the EPtX/EPtY guys? Wouldn't the single EPtX guy not have a gap that's 5s longer than the ability in comparison to the other guys?
Well, here's the difference between us, all my ships cycle 2xEPtS and 2xEPtW or 1xEPtS and 1xEPtW with DCE doffs. And that's over a dozen builds. And I specifically like flying cruisers.
Therefore this change affects all of my ships. But on all of my ships except cruisers, I'll most likely slap 2xEPtS and be done with it. (Yeah, I'll probably spend some time wondering on the more defensively apt ones if I can still somehow fit another one, but you get the picture.) Then remain cruisers; you see why I stress cruisers so much.
And I guess we'll always disagree on that part. I'm just happy you agree the current iteration shouldn't get on Holodeck, which realistically would mean just quickly restoring EPtX to where they were (there's definitely not enough time for them to get new Ens Eng abilities done for LoR, and all of current Tribble will go live with LoR).
EDIT: (In response of Arxial's post and your comment)
I see I wasn't right thinking "Nerf to cruisers" would be more popular than "Messing of EPtX powers". That I'm sorry for. However, I still see it falling far, far heavier on cruisers. I see that as a fact, and it's not gonna change.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I fear I can't let cruisers go into oblivion without a fight, hence this thread.
And as I see it, cruisers indeed rely on EPtX/EPtY cycling because there's nothing else to put in those low eng slots (and that's unlikely to change anytime soon).
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!