Well, here's the difference between us, all my ships cycle 2xEPtS and 2xEPtW or 1xEPtS and 1xEPtW with DCE doffs. And that's over a dozen builds. And I specifically like flying cruisers.
I couldn't imagine having the 4x EPtX (2X/2Y) that folks talk about. I've never done that. It's one of those things where I see the slots as wasted. I prefer making the opportunity cost of not having something potentially available to have something that's going to be available instead.
It's one of the things that has always driven me crazy about the En Eng BOFFs - because outside of a ship with a single Lt Eng BOFF - I'll never use EPtX above EPtX1. I've always made the choice to go with the EPtX1 and take one of the higher ranked Eng abilities than have an EPtX ability sitting there that I may or may not use.
I used to reroll every 2-3 weeks before S7 - since it was so easy to level and gear up back then. I've spent a lot of time flying different ships, different builds, different gearings, etc, etc, etc - by no means an expert on them all, much less an expert on any of them to be true.
Until the Winter Event and getting the Chel Grett, my main (a reroll for S7 like the rest) flew a Cruiser. I made the switch and basically didn't look back. Recently for some testing, I did...and...it was painful. He had far more survivability in an Escort than a Cruiser. I had a Tac in an Ambassador, and switched her to an Escort. Again, I saw that noticeable increase in survivability. I had another Eng in a Mirror Vor'cha that went to a Kamarag and now flies a JHEC. The JHEC doesn't have the +10% Defense like the HEC does (MAJOR MEH! /cough)...but still, there was a slight increase in survivability.
Cruisers are just too broke, imho, to enjoy flying them. The S7 changes, the LoR changes (even outside of the EPtX changes), well...almost everything that Cryptic has been doing since around Apr-May of last year has made them less enjoyable for me to fly. That's with them already having things that put them at a disadvantage, imo...
Were they to address several things (never going to happen) - I could see enjoying them as much as I do other ships.
Therefore this change affects all of my ships. But on all of my ships except cruisers, I'll most likely slap 2xEPtS and be done with it. (Yeah, I'll probably spend some time wondering on the more defensively apt ones if I can still somehow fit another one, but you get the picture.) Then remain cruisers; you see why I stress cruisers so much.
I've actually dorked around with some 2x EPtE, 2x EPtW, as well as shifting from EPtS/EPtW to 2x EPtS. Unfortunately, this change which was supposedly meant to...possibly do away with the 2x EPtX - has made it only that much more likely to run it. Bah...
And I guess we'll always disagree on that part. I'm just happy you agree the current iteration shouldn't get on Holodeck, which realistically would mean just quickly restoring EPtX to where they were (there's definitely not enough time for them to get new Ens Eng abilities done for LoR, and all of current Tribble will go live with LoR).
Oh yeah, my only issue was the effect separating Cruisers out might cause...the changes themselves are fubar on Tribble, lol...they're a complete cluster...er...yeah.
Having only five available at Ensign, where four of those are on a triggered CD with each other and the fifth one is on a triggered CD with a Tac and Sci ability...is broken.
Which is a core problem with the ship, engineering boff choices AND this change. The development team needs to know this. And needs to discuss this with people testing changes they make to this situation.
I mean if they plan on doing something about BOFF powers and shared cooldowns, now would be an excellent time for someone at Cryptic to say so.
But making this change and not saying anything? I don't know. Just not a good situation.
I'd love to see more EPtX2 and EPtX3...but because of only having those five abilities at Ensign...it's broken, imho.
This is where communication should be happening. The devs should be saying something in response to this. I mean there's nothing wrong with taking EPtX off of the continuous uptime, in a vaccuum. But doing so in the framework of Ensign Engi abilities? It's a bad move. There's nothing else to choose other than Engi Team, which runs into shared cooldown problem with Tactical Team and Science Team.
It's kind of frustrating you know? On a bad day, I'd be all indignant and ask the devs if they have ever kitted out an Exploration Cruiser. Heh.
I still think that PH, HE, and TSS should be moved from Sci to Eng. I still think TSS/ExS need to have their mechanics reworked so that TSS actually transfers shield strength and extend shields actually extends shields. I still think AB should be moved from Eng to Sci. I still think some of the Lt Sci abilities should be lowered in rank so they're En Sci abilities.
Changes like that are what the test server's for right? Well, along with discussion back and forth with those making the changes and those testing the changes.
I think too many things are looked at in isolation and that causes more problems than anything...
That's what I think is causing the problems with these particular changes.
It affects Engi Cruiser the most because that combination requires EPtW to get weapon damage up adequate levels, and they also still require EPtS for heals. Switching between EPtW and EPtS at some point is just mandatory, and there is going to be a forced penalty on this combination that does not exist in any other setup.
Even a carrier can rely on pets for damage and does not need EPtW in the same sense that a cruiser does.
This is why its such a punch in the throat. There's no choice here, you aren't making a tradeoff where benefit X yields penalty Y, you're being forced into the penalty with no benefit. While at the same time, other classes are actually getting benefit with no penalty.
I couldn't imagine having the 4x EPtX (2X/2Y) that folks talk about. I've never done that. It's one of those things where I see the slots as wasted. I prefer making the opportunity cost of not having something potentially available to have something that's going to be available instead.
I just don't understand this take on Cruiser builds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's generally assumed that the Dragon build and the Aux2Batt build are two of the better Cruiser builds out there, and they both use constant uptime on EPtS and EPtW. I honestly don't think that there's anything in the Lt Eng stations that reasonably compares to being able to maintain >100 power in both Weapons and Shields (often 125+ in both) at all times. The only non-EPtX powers in the Lt Eng slots that are really worthwhile are Aux2Batt (which encourages you to run constant uptime on EPtS and EPtW anyway, just in a different way), Aux2SIF (where you're generally MUCH better served with higher levels of the ability), and RSP. There is very little opportunity cost to running EPtW 1 x2 and EPtS 2 x2 (or vice versa on the levels of the abilities) and there's a LOT of gain, even before considering their secondary effects or using them with DOffs to further boost the abilities.
Even tabling that argument for the moment, at least the option is there for us to disagree over the viability of 4x EPtX builds and both have valid points. The changes that are being implemented on Tribble strip this choice completely - the cost to run 4x EPtX becomes too high, and is only a penalty to ships that have 2x Lt+ Engineering BOff seats... namely Cruisers. On the other hand, the effect on ships with only one Engineering BOff seat, or even an Lt Eng and an Ens Eng (namely everything that isn't a Cruiser) is all but nonexistent. That consideration makes this essentially a Cruiser nerf which, I think that most on the forums would agree, is almost totally uncalled for. Even if the 4x EPtX builds that I mentioned earlier were performing decently, they were in no way broken and definitely didn't need to be nerfed to the point of being completely invalid.
Overall, this change just baffles me. I'm thankful that I run Aux2Batt on my Cruisers (for now, anyway... how long until that major investment gets busted?) and almost universally use 2x EPtS on all of my other ships, so this won't hit me personally too badly, but it seems to me like removing valid options and limiting choice outside of obvious balance decisions are going to have a negative impact on the game overall.
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Joined January 2010.
With the Ep changes, the AtB build is nerfed as well, because thats all about system cooldowns and buff duration. Because you cannot just cycle two different EP powers with it, without the gaps.
It almost looks like Cryptic feels cruisers have too much power, maybe it has something to do with the singularity for romulan ships. The point is, the overpowered cruisers probably were better than escorts in some (one) area (power) and this needed to be fixed, so the escort online game is not threatened.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
As someone who pilots all three ship classes I can safely say, at least in my case, that this change will have no affect on my science ship nor will it impact my escort. My cruiser on the other hand will be crippled. To understand why you have to understand that cruisers, federation cruisers, are stuck using beams. They cannot mount cannons and even if they could they don't have the maneuverability or tac stations to support them. Beams, unlike cannons are terribly inefficient draining massive amounts of weapon power as they go through their firing cycle. It is for this reason that cruisers must have emergency weapon power active, to counter this massive drain to keep damage respectable. This change forces you to choose between your survivability and your ability to do damage. This sounds almost reasonable. You shouldn't be able to do both righy? Problem is cruiser damage is already rather low and not using emergency power to weapons worsens the problem. Your taking a ship class that already has trouble keeping up in a dps centric game and making them even worse.
With the Ep changes, the AtB build is nerfed as well, because thats all about system cooldowns and buff duration. Because you cannot just cycle two different EP powers with it, without the gaps.
It almost looks like Cryptic feels cruisers have too much power, maybe it has something to do with the singularity for romulan ships. The point is, the overpowered cruisers probably were better than escorts in some (one) area (power) and this needed to be fixed, so the escort online game is not threatened.
Wow... if that's the case, then Cruisers are going to be almost literally unplayable. I hadn't gotten around to testing the changes with my Aux2Batt builds yet, but that's my next priority after I finish downloading the 'huge' patch.
Incredible... despite the months (or more) of forum threads relating to Cruisers being completely outclassed by the other ship types, Cryptic found it in themselves to rip out the heart of the only two really effective Cruiser builds. I guess I should be glad that of my nine level 50 characters, only three of them fly Cruisers or Battle Cruisers... *sigh*
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Joined January 2010.
Well someone with A2B build on tribble test it. Tbh, I didn't transfer my toon with it, so maybe that's false alarm on my part, as I try to play without it whenever I can But if I remember it right, then you can only reduce the cooldown to the subsystem cooldown, but the buff duration was changed-lowered, thus the gap should be there as well.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Well someone with A2B build on tribble test it. Tbh, I didn't transfer my toon with it, so maybe that's false alarm on my part, as I try to play without it whenever I can But if I remember it right, then you can only reduce the cooldown to the subsystem cooldown, but the buff duration was changed-lowered, thus the gap should be there as well.
I fly an A2B cruiser and escort, suffice to say I know how powerful the A2B build is. I know I've posted this many times now, and here's to another time:
If you are running only one copy of EPtX, this change to Emergency Powers is amazing news. double A2B builds will now be able to chain it back to back every 20 seconds down from 30 seconds demonstrated below: :rolleyes:
0s: Uses EPtX and A2B#1 - EPtX is now on 33s cooldown due to A2B.
10s: Use A2B#2 - EPtX is now further reduced down to 10s (global cap)
20s: Use EPtX again.
This is the basic cycling of EPtX powers on Tribble assuming that you're using 3 purple technician doffs. If you have a mix of blue and purple technician doffs, then you'll probably land around the 22s-25s. Still very good.
However, if you're running a copy of EPtX and EPtY, then you'll run into the same issues with the global CD cap as demonstrated below:
0s: Use EPtX and A2B#1 - EPtX is now on 33s and EPtY is now shared CD of 15s.
10s: Use A2B#2 - EPtX is now down to the 10s global cap again....
15s: (Option A) EPtY is now available to use - should you choose to use it, you'll set EPtX's CD to 15s without any way of reducing it. No amount of A2B will help you reduce that cap.
20s: (Option If you didn't use EPtY, EPtX is available again. Essentially, start at 0s from here again. If you did use EPtY, here's the 10s gap on EPtX. EPtY will have 15s before it runs out here. If you want to start re-using EPtY, here's where you can pop a A2B again to drop EPtY's CD to 27s. (see basic cycle above - Rinse and repeat for EPtY instead).
30s: If you chose to use EPtY at 15s, EPtX is now available again. Rinse and repeat.
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All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Well someone with A2B build on tribble test it. Tbh, I didn't transfer my toon with it, so maybe that's false alarm on my part, as I try to play without it whenever I can But if I remember it right, then you can only reduce the cooldown to the subsystem cooldown, but the buff duration was changed-lowered, thus the gap should be there as well.
I will as soon as I'm able - I just transferred one of my Aux2Batt characters over... unfortunately, he's being effected by the "can't place Bridge Officers into ship stations" bug at the moment. Once that gets resolved, it'll just take me a couple of minutes in Sol System to figure out how the interactions are working.
Unless, of course, some kind soul who transferred an Aux2Batt character over before the bug beats me to it!
Edit: And I was beaten to it. Yay for information, boo for Aux2Batt being broken just as badly as the Dragon build. Guess I'll be mothballing my Cruisers completely when LoR hits, or changing to 2x EPtS and finding something else to do with the free Engineering BOff slots (ha!).
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Joined January 2010.
As someone who pilots all three ship classes I can safely say, at least in my case, that this change will have no affect on my science ship nor will it impact my escort. My cruiser on the other hand will be crippled. To understand why you have to understand that cruisers, federation cruisers, are stuck using beams. They cannot mount cannons and even if they could they don't have the maneuverability or tac stations to support them. Beams, unlike cannons are terribly inefficient draining massive amounts of weapon power as they go through their firing cycle. It is for this reason that cruisers must have emergency weapon power active, to counter this massive drain to keep damage respectable. This change forces you to choose between your survivability and your ability to do damage. This sounds almost reasonable. You shouldn't be able to do both righy? Problem is cruiser damage is already rather low and not using emergency power to weapons worsens the problem. Your taking a ship class that already has trouble keeping up in a dps centric game and making them even worse.
Bingo
I don't know about your builds specifically, but I must disagree that this change will have no impact on other ships. Escorts running x2 copies of EPtS now get a heal/regen every 20 seconds, rather than every 30. So not only are cruisers going to become even more toothless without weapon power, more toothless without EPtW dmg bonus, and yet even more toothless with the drain on beams dropping you to low 40's or 30's now, we have an even SMALLER window to do damage in.
Ah, I know why I thought so now, because I'm only using 2 purple technicians, as they were enough to cycle two EP powers. With 3, thats another matter.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I don't know about your builds specifically, but I must disagree that this change will have no impact on other ships. Escorts running x2 copies of EPtS now get a heal/regen every 20 seconds, rather than every 30. So not only are cruisers going to become even more toothless without weapon power, more toothless without EPtW dmg bonus, and yet even more toothless with the drain on beams dropping you to low 40's or 30's now, we have an even SMALLER window to do damage in.
Not to mention that this could be seen as a general buff to the other ship types in PvP and PvE - they're hardly affected by the 5s downtime per cycle, and now get to have their shields heal three times per minute instead of twice as it stands on Holodeck now.
FANtastic.
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Joined January 2010.
Ah, I know why I thought so now, because I'm only using 2 purple technicians, as they were enough to cycle two EP powers. With 3, thats another matter.
Here's something to think about: 3 purple technician doffs will give you a total of 30% CD reduction from the base CD of the skill per use. Since EPtX's base CD is 45s, 30% of that is approximately 13s.
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All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Not to mention that this could be seen as a general buff to the other ship types in PvP and PvE - they're hardly affected by the 5s downtime per cycle, and now get to have their shields heal three times per minute instead of twice as it stands on Holodeck now.
I don't know about your builds specifically, but I must disagree that this change will have no impact on other ships. Escorts running x2 copies of EPtS now get a heal/regen every 20 seconds, rather than every 30. So not only are cruisers going to become even more toothless without weapon power, more toothless without EPtW dmg bonus, and yet even more toothless with the drain on beams dropping you to low 40's or 30's now, we have an even SMALLER window to do damage in.
I was looking at the negative ramifications for cruises, but yes I agree with your assessment that this is most probably going to be a buff for any ship not running multiple types of emergency powers...so everyone else lol.
The Eng BOFF issue is a separate issue. Does this issue make that issue worse? In some cases it does.
It's a strongly enough related issue for the timing changes to penalise Cruisers more than other ship classes. Cruiser commanders came up with a couple of good workarounds to allow them to use their bridge officer slots as well as escort and science vessel commanders can use theirs, but the Tribble versions of EPtX do their damnedest to break them.
Making this just about Cruisers though...isn't being honest about the situation. It's being selfish about the situation since it does affect anybody and everybody that is using the abilities - regardless of the ships they're flying. It can actually affect some worse because they've gone from a 15s gap to a 25s gap with the changes. Cruisers did not get the worst of this.
Cruisers have got the worst of this. Very few non-Cruisers even contemplate using EPtX in anything other than an ensign slot, and workarounds for non-Cruisers are much easier--for example, using 1x EPtS + 1x EPtW without Aux2Bat or DCE duty officers has an easy workaround of moving entirely to 2x EPtS and adjusting your power settings--but Cruisers are now also forced to use EPtX I or leave ensign slots fallow in all but a few rarified situations (specifically PvP premade groups where the ship wouldn't have its own copy of Tactical Team, instead relying on receiving the buff from a teamate when in need).
Why would anybody want to further split the community that is opposed to the changes by trying to separate everybody else out from those in Cruisers?
From what I have read, most of the community who is against these changes agree that cruisers come off worst with these changes. As I explained above, the knock-on effects are relatively easy for escorts and science vessels to work around without substantial impact on performance, but similar workarounds are far harder on cruisers.
I see all those posts screaming 'give us balance' and every bit of that balancing seems to require some form of nerf to everything not cruiser, or buff to everything cruiser.
Considering Cruisers are the lowest performing ship class, is this really surprising? Their mobility is poor, they have the most unappealing bridge officer power set, their canon weapons don't work well with each other, and any advantage they have in durability is far smaller than the advantage science ships have in support or that escorts have in damage.
Then perhaps this is the ingame representation of DS9's famous little diatribe where Sisko states that cruisers are outdated, as well they should be.
Fornicate that excrement. This game puts the majority of the most memorable vessels from the IP it's based on into the category "Cruiser". It's a disservice to those iconic vessels and their fans to leave them languishing in such a suboptimal state.
Wow... if that's the case, then Cruisers are going to be almost literally unplayable. I hadn't gotten around to testing the changes with my Aux2Batt builds yet, but that's my next priority after I finish downloading the 'huge' patch.
Another factor affecting Aux2Bat is that the Tier 4 Nukara passive gives substantial skill bouses (offensive or defensive, depending on choice) based on your current Auxiliary Power level; the higher the power level, the better the bonus.
Also, Aux2Bat, with 3 Very Rare Technicians, will let a single EPtX power run at 20 second cooldown. It won't mitigate gaps between EPtX + EPtY ; you're getting 10 seconds coverage gap per Emergency Power ability.
It's kind of funny reading through some of the replies. Because unlike what I've asked in various threads It's not even about folks perhaps flying Tac Cruisers or Eng Cruisers - about having a Tac, Eng, or Sci in the Cruiser. People are literally just complaining that it is going to affect their particular builds adversely...and...thus falsely claiming that it is a Cruiser issue. In that sense, it's not a Cruiser issue - it's a build issue. Yes, they're Cruiser builds...but it's not something that's affecting all Cruisers in the same manner, so it's not a Cruiser issue.
Likewise, some of the comments made in regard to non-Cruiser vessels have them all flying the perfect build to highlight potential discrepancies between these particular Cruiser builds and the non-Cruiser builds. Once again though, those are specific non-Cruiser builds. Yes, they're still non-Cruisers, but they're specific non-Cruiser builds. So it's not a completely non-Cruiser thing.
It's basically a Cruiser build vs. non-Cruiser build discussion amongst some of the folks where they're trying to exaggerate just how bad they are off with Cruisers...when it's they're builds and not Cruisers.
It's insulting both to Cruisers and non-Cruisers alike.
Who hasn't had a build screwed up by some changes that Cryptic has made? Hell, it's one of the reasons that I tended to reroll guys so often back before S7. I sure wasn't going to buy a respec token every time Cryptic broke one of my builds. Course, they did S7 and now...well...I neither reroll nor buy the respec tokens. I fly my TRIBBLE broken by their various changes and deal with it. Sometimes, I'm even the one suggesting that the break it because it's too powerful. Twisted, eh? Well, it happens when something is fine and they end up introducing/buffing something else. Buff/Nerfs can both break things.
I'm amazed at the desire to cling to certain bandaids that have been applied to address the undeniable issues that exist with Cruisers. These bandaids not only benefit Cruisers, but they benefit anybody that chooses to use them. In the majority of cases, they actually benefit non-Cruisers more than Cruisers. Both Escorts and Science Vessels will get more out of the EPtX abilities than Cruisers do.
EPtA: Who's running the lowest Aux? Who uses the most abilities based on Aux?
EPtE: Who's the speed tank? Who's got the abilities with the smallest arcs?
EPtS: Who doesn't have much room to carry other heals? Who's primarily a shield tank?
EPtW: It's a final modifier - who's going got the highest damage before it's applied? Who's already running two other systems high?
Those abilities simply do not work as well for Cruisers because of the sorry state that Cruisers are in to begin with...it's like beggars clamoring for scraps so they can continue to remain subpar.
It's infuriating. It really is.
I get the not wanting to be taken down further, I get that, but it doesn't make it any less infuriating.
Cause face it:
Lack of Engineering BOFF choices. So painfully evident at the Ensign level. Does it matter as much for non-Cruisers? Nope. They work out pretty well for non-Cruisers. /cough Escorts.
As an aside here, consider PH/HE/TSS over there is Sci. Do they make sense for Sci? Not in the least. Guess what though? They work out pretty well for.../cough...Escorts.
Does Cruiser turn rate need to be buffed? Many say Hell Yes! I disagree. That won't fix anything when the issue is Escorts turn too fast. DHCs "supposedly" do more damage because of their limited arcs. /cough Those arcs aren't that limited when you can turn as fast as an Escort can.
Speaking of DHCs, that gets into DHCs vs. Beams. There is a fixed modifier in the difference between their DPV and DPS. That's a horrible thing. That means the more that damage can be boosted - the more that gap between DHCs and Beams will grow. What starts out as a gap of 74 DPV for the standard/base damage between the two weapons can reach over 2000. What starts out as a gap of 36 DPS can reach 1000 or more.
By the way, that's before you get into the drain mechanics.
The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on...
...so yeah, I can see the pleading for that gap not to continue to grow. Unfortunately, it does grow. It grows with everything added to the game.
Say they don't make these changes - say folks are able to continue with their builds.
Have you looked at the rest of what else is being added with LoR?
Yeah, perhaps I'm foolish to think that we should fight for some core changes with this major expansion. I know it's insane with less than three weeks to launch. But that's me...flaky, I guess.
But still, just because it's breaking certain Cruiser builds does not mean it's breaking Cruisers. Just because it will buff certain non-Cruiser builds does not mean it's buffing non-Cruisers.
People always like the hyperbole...they like twisted extrapolation...they like...well, yeah...
...this particular discussion has been taking place in several threads.
Regardless of any discussion in regard to Cruisers or specific Cruiser builds - the proposed changes are such a total mess that it should transcend all of that. Too many folks have a chip on their shoulders though...there's all this petty bickering taking place that's distracting from just how bad these changes are.
Isn't that what the plea to the developers should be?
It's a strongly enough related issue for the timing changes to penalise Cruisers more than other ship classes. Cruiser commanders came up with a couple of good workarounds to allow them to use their bridge officer slots as well as escort and science vessel commanders can use theirs, but the Tribble versions of EPtX do their damnedest to break them.
"to penalise Cruisers more"
"a couple of good workarounds"
That makes it a build issue...not a Cruiser issue.
Cruisers have got the worst of this. Very few non-Cruisers even contemplate using EPtX in anything other than an ensign slot, and workarounds for non-Cruisers are much easier--for example, using 1x EPtS + 1x EPtW without Aux2Bat or DCE duty officers has an easy workaround of moving entirely to 2x EPtS and adjusting your power settings--but Cruisers are now also forced to use EPtX I or leave ensign slots fallow in all but a few rarified situations (specifically PvP premade groups where the ship wouldn't have its own copy of Tactical Team, instead relying on receiving the buff from a teamate when in need).
"Very few non-Cruisers even contemplate using EPtX in anything other than an ensign slot"
Very few non-Cruisers have much more than an Ensign slot...
Even if Cruisers run higher EPtX versions than EPtX1, they're still going to be running the EPtX1 as well. What, are they running 2x ET1? Are the 3x Eng BOFF Cruisers running 3x ET1?
Complaining about how this affects the 4x EPtX Cruisers builds is complaining about 4x EPtX Cruiser builds...not Cruisers. Not everybody runs 4x(2+2) EPtX/Y. Some people actually run EPtX/EPtY and use DCE DOFFs on their Cruisers. They're affected in the same way as everybody else running that. Dismissing those that run that...is also dismissing Cruiser builds that run that. Dismissing Cruisers while saying Cruisers? Mind-boggling...eh?
The real issue is the lack of Ensign Engineering BOFFs. That potentially affects all Cruisers...not just those running higher level EPtX abilities. If they were to add more Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities, would the 4x guys even care? After all, they're running their 100% uptime EPtS/EPtW without having to use DOFFs to do so. They're enjoying that. Frankly, I'd rather use three DOFFs and have two BOFF abilities available.
From what I have read, most of the community who is against these changes agree that cruisers come off worst with these changes. As I explained above, the knock-on effects are relatively easy for escorts and science vessels to work around without substantial impact on performance, but similar workarounds are far harder on cruisers.
That's leaving out many of the reasons why many of the folks have stated that they will affect Cruisers more. I disagree with some of them and wholeheartedly agree on others. Even there, it's going to come down to the builds...and...it may require that folks adjust their builds. People don't want to do that...that's been very obvious in many of the threads.
As part of the communication that needs to take place, imho, both the players and devs need to have a conversation about builds. If the devs believe there are viable builds out there, they should give some examples and be able to back them up in both PvE and PvP. If the players believe there are builds that will no longer be viable because of the change, they need to give examples to the devs and be ready to accept the devs saying that such build will no longer be viable...while presenting other viable options for players.
But all of that is dependent upon there actually being logical changes...and the proposed changes are - Hell, sorry devs - but the current iteration of changes are TRIBBLE... no ifs, ands, or buts...they're a mess.
It's kind of funny reading through some of the replies. Because unlike what I've asked in various threads It's not even about folks perhaps flying Tac Cruisers or Eng Cruisers - about having a Tac, Eng, or Sci in the Cruiser. People are literally just complaining that it is going to affect their particular builds adversely...and...thus falsely claiming that it is a Cruiser issue. In that sense, it's not a Cruiser issue - it's a build issue. Yes, they're Cruiser builds...but it's not something that's affecting all Cruisers in the same manner, so it's not a Cruiser issue.
Likewise, some of the comments made in regard to non-Cruiser vessels have them all flying the perfect build to highlight potential discrepancies between these particular Cruiser builds and the non-Cruiser builds. Once again though, those are specific non-Cruiser builds. Yes, they're still non-Cruisers, but they're specific non-Cruiser builds. So it's not a completely non-Cruiser thing.
It's basically a Cruiser build vs. non-Cruiser build discussion amongst some of the folks where they're trying to exaggerate just how bad they are off with Cruisers...when it's they're builds and not Cruisers.
It's insulting both to Cruisers and non-Cruisers alike.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're trying to say that people who are claiming that Cruisers are getting the short end of this stick are setting up a false dichotomy. As I noted in my post upthread, which I've quoted here for convenience, that's simply not the case:
Even tabling that argument for the moment, at least the option is there for us to disagree over the viability of 4x EPtX builds and both have valid points. The changes that are being implemented on Tribble strip this choice completely - the cost to run 4x EPtX becomes too high, and is only a penalty to ships that have 2x Lt+ Engineering BOff seats... namely Cruisers. On the other hand, the effect on ships with only one Engineering BOff seat, or even an Lt Eng and an Ens Eng (namely everything that isn't a Cruiser) is all but nonexistent. That consideration makes this essentially a Cruiser nerf which, I think that most on the forums would agree, is almost totally uncalled for. Even if the 4x EPtX builds that I mentioned earlier were performing decently, they were in no way broken and definitely didn't need to be nerfed to the point of being completely invalid.
It's not a Cruiser nerf because it hits particular Cruiser builds; it's a Cruiser nerf because it completely removes two of the more popular Cruiser builds from the game. It's a Cruiser nerf because Cruisers are really the only ship type that's capable of being hit with the worst aspect of this ability change. It's a Cruiser nerf because it limits the variety of BOff abilities that Cruisers will be able to effectively slot.
It's not a Sci or Escort nerf because it does not remove any of their builds, and they can cope with any changes to existing builds without nearly as much loss in effectiveness. In fact, with one of the most popular Sci/Escort uses of an Lt Eng slot (EPtS 1/EPtS2), it's a buff. They trade 5 seconds of downtime per cycle for the ability to execute 33% more shield heals in the same time period. Not too shabby.
Overall, I doubt that Escorts and Sci ships will be running EPt(something other than S) even with the buffs to E, W, and A. Escorts get plenty of firepower out of their Tac seats, and are comfortable reserving their Eng seats for survivability, and a heal beats extra defenses in that department - particularly with the availability of other options to boost speed (Evasive, consumables, AP:O). Sci ships (especially Vesta variants) were already running at high Aux and won't benefit appreciably from the ability boosts rolled in with EPtA... and they're also generally comfortable reserving their Lt Eng slot for survivability.
So, in short, because of the BOff abilities available to Cruisers v. non-Cruisers this is at best a nerf for Cruisers and, at worst, a minor inconvenience for non-Cruisers (and, at best, a buff for non-Cruisers).
Or, if it makes you feel better, I can just as easily say that this is a nerf to any ship with 2x Lt Engineer seats or more, and a buff to any ship with up to 1x Lt Engineer and 1x Ensign Engineer and leave it to you to figure out which ships fall into which category. People aren't railing so much about certain Cruiser builds, but about the fact that this is a nerf to a BOff seating arrangement that's most prevalent on Cruisers (and, yes, removal of choice in your builds is a nerf in its own right).
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Joined January 2010.
But no matter what, we can all agree that the underlying issue is that there is lack of engineering brige officer abilities at ensign level - something people are saying since STO launched btw - hardly news. It was just the changes made by Snix that made it - tolerable.
All decent cruiser builds, and thus all cruisers rely on multiple EPX powers.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
But no matter what, we can all agree that the underlying issue is that there is lack of engineering brige officer abilities at ensign level - something people are saying since STO launched btw - hardly news. It was just the changes made by Snix that made it - tolerable.
Honestly, the same is largely true of Tac Ensign slots as well. Outside of corner case builds that can make good use of that third Tac Ensign slot for a torpedo skill, it's Tac Team all the way down. Really, what all is there for Tac Ensigns? Tac Team, BFAW (ha!), BO (ha, again!), TS (o.k.), and THY (o.k.).
Sci is really the only department that has any appreciable variety and usefulness in its Ensign slots, with three or four abilities that really aren't terrible for almost any build.
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Joined January 2010.
Only all-cannon escorts suffer from this, if you combine arms you have no problems. The obvious difference is that you can slot torpedo and hyt powers, something you are unable to do with engineering ensigns. It's either EP power or Team power. You simply cannot hide from the shared cooldowns. The fun part is, that the same issue (TT) prevents you to take HYT on some cruisers, because you need the ensign for TT, which is half your tactical powers.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Only all-cannon escorts suffer from this, if you combine arms you have no problems. The obvious difference is that you can slot torpedo and hyt powers, something you are unable to do with engineering ensigns. It's either EP power or Team power. You simply cannot hide from the shared cooldowns. The fun part is, that the same issue (TT) prevents you to take HYT on some cruisers, because you need the ensign for TT, which is half your tactical powers.
On the other hand, taking a torpedo on an Escort that could otherwise have been all-DHC is a DPS loss*. Period.
Oh, and as an added bonus, it forces you to spend Captain skill points to make it less of a DPS loss rather than something that actually improves your damage out.
Which puts Escorts with three Tac Ensign slots in a pretty rough place as well - do you take the torpedo and the DPS loss to be able to use that third Tac Ensign, or do you waste the slot?
*Excluding PvP where burst damage through an open shield facing can be a bigger deal than sustained DPS, and also where I have less experience to speak from.
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Joined January 2010.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're trying to say that people who are claiming that Cruisers are getting the short end of this stick are setting up a false dichotomy. As I noted in my post upthread, which I've quoted here for convenience, that's simply not the case:
A person running 1x EPtX is going from a 15s to 25s gap. That is not solely a Cruiser issue. It can be a Cruiser issue for somebody that's not chaining a pair of EPtX abilities, but is rather using them as needed. That's not solely a Cruiser issue either, as that may be the case with Science Vessels as well.
A person running EPtX/EPtY with DCE DOFFs is going from a 0s gap to a 10s gap. That 10s gap doesn't care if the person is in a Cruiser, Escort, or Science Vessel. They're all going to experience that gap.
A person running 2x EPtX that's going to be experiencing that 5s gap every 40s...that 5s gap doesn't care what ship the person is in.
Even the 4x can technically be run in non-Cruisers.
My two Cruisers are not going to be affected in the same way as the people running 4x. They run 2x EPtS. They're going to enjoy those same heals that some people are making out that only non-Cruisers will get (/headscratch). They'll have a 5s or less gap to cover, which for an Eng in a Cruiser is not much of a gap to have to cover. Heck, with the additional changes in LoR - it will be even easier. (This is part of where I complain out the wahzoo about the disparity being introduced with these changes between folks running different variations of EPtX.)
These changes are great for my Cruisers.
Not so for my Escorts that now have that 10s gap. Not so for my Science Vessel that's looking at a pair of 25s gaps. Not so for my Carrier which I'm likely to give up flying. I had been thinking about working toward a Fleet Corsair as a replacement before the announcement of the changes...now, not so much.
Different people fly different builds. The changes will affect people and their builds differently. Trying to lay out a blanket statement that it's bad for Cruisers just isn't true...when in some cases it's actually a buff.
It's bad for some Cruisers. No doubt in the least about that. It's horrible for some Cruisers. It destroys the build. That's not the same as saying it's bad for Cruisers though.
It's not a Cruiser nerf because it hits particular Cruiser builds; it's a Cruiser nerf because it completely removes two of the more popular Cruiser builds from the game. It's a Cruiser nerf because Cruisers are really the only ship type that's capable of being hit with the worst aspect of this ability change. It's a Cruiser nerf because it limits the variety of BOff abilities that Cruisers will be able to effectively slot.
All of those are build nerfs...not Cruiser nerfs. I mean, look at what you've said there - it's not a nerf for Cruisers because it nerfs Cruiser builds, it's a Cruiser nerf because it nerfs Cruiser builds? Seriously? That's what you just said. It's right there.
I mean, is this one of those things that I have to step back and accept that it's a Cruiser nerf because it nerfs a Cruiser build and thus reduces the number of available Cruiser builds?
Guess what? It does that to non-Cruisers as well. Is it more of a Cruiser nerf because it eliminates a build that can't be run on non-Cruisers? That's kind of what's being said, no?
It's not a Sci or Escort nerf because it does not remove any of their builds, and they can cope with any changes to existing builds without nearly as much loss in effectiveness. In fact, with one of the most popular Sci/Escort uses of an Lt Eng slot (EPtS 1/EPtS2), it's a buff. They trade 5 seconds of downtime per cycle for the ability to execute 33% more shield heals in the same time period. Not too shabby.
But that is complete and utter BS...it does remove builds for non-Cruisers.
And that is complete and utter BS to suggest that Cruisers won't get the same benefit from healing. Cruisers can do the same thing.
Overall, I doubt that Escorts and Sci ships will be running EPt(something other than S) even with the buffs to E, W, and A. Escorts get plenty of firepower out of their Tac seats, and are comfortable reserving their Eng seats for survivability, and a heal beats extra defenses in that department - particularly with the availability of other options to boost speed (Evasive, consumables, AP:O). Sci ships (especially Vesta variants) were already running at high Aux and won't benefit appreciably from the ability boosts rolled in with EPtA... and they're also generally comfortable reserving their Lt Eng slot for survivability.
EPtW is a final modifier. It's applied after everything else. EPtW is going from 5s to 20s. EPtW is losing 10s of +Pwr in exchange for +15s of final modifier damage. Are Escorts about Pressure or Spike Damage? EPtW is pretty good looking.
What's a good way to kill an Escort? SNB/Tractor - drop their bonus defense from over 100% down to 10-15% or so? Have you seen what EPtE does for an Escort on Tribble? They get outside that 5km range of the Tractor and...EPtE is pretty good looking.
EPtA provides a bonus to Stealth Detection. Currently that is only for 5s. That's going to be for 20s. Sci Vessels receive a higher bonus to Stealth Detection from their Aux levels than non-Sci Vessels. Pretty handy for detecting those sneaky Klingons, eh? Oh yeah, aren't they adding a new faction where every ship's got a Battle Cloak?
So, in short, because of the BOff abilities available to Cruisers v. non-Cruisers this is at best a nerf for Cruisers and, at worst, a minor inconvenience for non-Cruisers (and, at best, a buff for non-Cruisers).
I can't think of anything kind to say in reply to that...can't think of anything to say that won't end up with mods sending me pesky messages to behave myself.
Or, if it makes you feel better, I can just as easily say that this is a nerf to any ship with 2x Lt Engineer seats or more, and a buff to any ship with up to 1x Lt Engineer and 1x Ensign Engineer and leave it to you to figure out which ships fall into which category. People aren't railing so much about certain Cruiser builds, but about the fact that this is a nerf to a BOff seating arrangement that's most prevalent on Cruisers (and, yes, removal of choice in your builds is a nerf in its own right).
Anything I would say to this would be worse than what I was going to say to the paragraph above it...
On the other hand, taking a torpedo on an Escort that could otherwise have been all-DHC is a DPS loss*. Period.
/snip
*Excluding PvP where burst damage through an open shield facing can be a bigger deal than sustained DPS, and also where I have less experience to speak from.
I think this could explain quite a bit of where I might be at odds with some folks in this thread. I was all gung ho to go with a certain reply when I read the first part, but I took a deep breath and read through the rest..including down to the * note.
I do not consider myself a PvPer. I do not consider myself a PvEer. I do both. Even the people that claim to be solely PvPers, still have to PvE in the game - it's the only way to gear - only way to grind the Reps - etc, etc, etc.
That being said, I don't have any PvE builds. All of my builds are PvP builds. Course, with regard to some of the builds out there - one could say there's no difference between PvE/PvP - they're the same build. I do have a build that's all but useless in PvE - the others are well beyond adequate to help accomplish the optionals in any ESTF. Heh, NWS is a different story of course. Then again, I've been in a group of 5 Eng Cruisers (none of them 4x) where we've completed the optional in ISE with plenty of time to spare. Wouldn't want to try that in CSE of course though, lol. Folks have completed optionals with Mirandas though.
While it is only my experience (not necessarily always the case) - when people are generally complaining about ship types/builds etc...it's because they're part of the Efficient Crowd and are looking to complete ESTFs in 5 minutes. 10-15 minutes just takes too damn long for them. They shouldn't PUG then, imho. And if it's a case of coming across somebody with a build that's so atrocious that they kill the optional - well, it's not likely them - since you don't even need a full five to complete most of the ESTFs with the optional. But still, in coming across those folks - it's usually more helpful to try to talk to them kindly...rather than deride them and hope you never see them again. Karma's quirky that way - you'll likely meet that person and all their friends over and over and over again.
I was in a bugged Fleet Defense a week or so ago. There was one guy that started going off on everybody...I was actually enjoying it. We failed. Can't remember the last time failing one of those. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that I died more during it than I'd died in the week leading up to that. Was on a KDF toon, and it started off with around 2-3 times the normal amount of Feds and added the same 2-3 times the normal amount with each wave. I've never seen so much Phaser and Quantum spam. CRFs, CSVs, FAW, Spreads, High Yields, PDS spam...so many MVAMs. It was epic. And...we got slaughtered. The field was constantly full of Quants flying all over the place and there was so much Phaser spam that shields were dropping left, right, and center...right as those Quants would slam into folks. Folks would try to bring their shields back online in time, usually handling it - but there was just so much spam - didn't always happen. Weapons going offline, engines going offline and folks losing their bonus defense, aux going offline and nuking various abilities and aux based heals. It was freaking awesome. It's something I would have liked to tackle with an actual group...it's something that I wish was an actual encounter in the game. It would have been challenging. Sure enough, the one after that was the same ol' - same ol' flying around in circles while randomly tapping the spacebar and watching TV.
Yeah, CSE can be easy or it can be tricky. HSE is the same. NWS is the DPS fest that it is.
But with so many of the complaints and things said by certain folks that primarily PvE - I just don't get it. Even other PvE folks don't get it. I mean, c'mon - threads asking why the Borg were nerfed and why the Borg were buffed at the same time, eh? C'mon...meh.
Still, I don't come at builds thinking about PvE. I come at them thinking about PvP. I know that some of the builds I will do for PvP will be useless for PvE because PvE simply doesn't require that kind of build. On that same toon though, I can just drop them in another ship and not be concerned about failing any optionals.
I'm not looking to compete with Escorts for damage in PvE in a Cruiser. That wouldn't make sense. It's about bringing enough damage - and - perhaps other things. Painting a group of mobs in EWP is something the Escort can't do. It's something that makes it easier for the Escorts to do their damage. I'll bring heals to toss to them - so they can stay in the fight longer. I try to bring what I can...I don't try to be something I'm not. That can lead to missing out on what is possible.
As for the survivability...I've tanked Cubes, Spheres, Gates, Donatra, Queens in everything from a Cruiser, Carrier, through a Sci Vessel, and even a BoP. I'm not sure how anybody manages to die outside of getting hit by an invisispread that catches them offguard.
A person running 1x EPtX is going from a 15s to 25s gap. That is not solely a Cruiser issue. It can be a Cruiser issue for somebody that's not chaining a pair of EPtX abilities, but is rather using them as needed. That's not solely a Cruiser issue either, as that may be the case with Science Vessels as well.
A person running EPtX/EPtY with DCE DOFFs is going from a 0s gap to a 10s gap. That 10s gap doesn't care if the person is in a Cruiser, Escort, or Science Vessel. They're all going to experience that gap.
A person running 2x EPtX that's going to be experiencing that 5s gap every 40s...that 5s gap doesn't care what ship the person is in.
Even the 4x can technically be run in non-Cruisers.
My two Cruisers are not going to be affected in the same way as the people running 4x. They run 2x EPtS. They're going to enjoy those same heals that some people are making out that only non-Cruisers will get (/headscratch). They'll have a 5s or less gap to cover, which for an Eng in a Cruiser is not much of a gap to have to cover. Heck, with the additional changes in LoR - it will be even easier. (This is part of where I complain out the wahzoo about the disparity being introduced with these changes between folks running different variations of EPtX.)
These changes are great for my Cruisers.
Not so for my Escorts that now have that 10s gap. Not so for my Science Vessel that's looking at a pair of 25s gaps. Not so for my Carrier which I'm likely to give up flying. I had been thinking about working toward a Fleet Corsair as a replacement before the announcement of the changes...now, not so much.
Different people fly different builds. The changes will affect people and their builds differently. Trying to lay out a blanket statement that it's bad for Cruisers just isn't true...when in some cases it's actually a buff.
It's bad for some Cruisers. No doubt in the least about that. It's horrible for some Cruisers. It destroys the build. That's not the same as saying it's bad for Cruisers though.
Let me try a different approach - let's look at the choices that are currently available for the two types of Engineer BOff seating arrangements that are likely to be affected by this: 2x Lt+ Engineer seats, and 1x Lt Engineer + 1x Ensign Engineer or less and the choices that will be realistically available after the changes. Buffs will be in green, yellow will be for nerfs that are still a possible choice in some circumstances, and red will be for nerfs that render the combination all but literally unusable.
2x Lt Eng or more
1. 2x EPtX - uptime gets increased for many choices, and the benefit/time is boosted for others 2. 1x EPtX, 1x something else - these builds have a slight change to their uptime, but the cooldown structure remains the same, not affecting other abilities. 3. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY - these builds were generally not relying on 100% uptime for both abilities, and have to deal with a small change in how their cooldowns effect one another. 4. 2x EPtX, 1x EPtY - again, not relying on ability twisting or 100% uptime. Nerf to cooldown interactions, but still usable. 5. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with DCE DOffs - these builds probably were relying on 100% uptime with both abilities. Not any more! 6. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with Aux2Batt and Technicians - these builds were definitely relying on 100% uptime for both abilities. Now impossible to execute. 7. 2x EPtX, 2x EPtY - again, these builds relied on 100% uptime for both abilities. Now impossible to execute.
1x Lt Eng + 1x Ens Eng, or less
1. 2x EPtX - uptime gets increased for many choices, and the benefit/time is boosted for others 2. 1x EPtX, 1x something else - these builds have a slight change to their uptime, but the cooldown structure remains the same, not affecting other abilities. 3. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY - these builds were generally not relying on 100% uptime for both abilities, and have to deal with a small change in how their cooldowns effect one another. 4. 2x EPtX, 1x EPtY - again, not relying on ability twisting or 100% uptime. Nerf to cooldown interactions, but still usable. 5. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with DCE DOffs - these builds probably were relying on 100% uptime with both abilities. Not any more!
Which category of ship is paying more for this change, in terms of limitation of choice? Which category of ship has which label in-game?
I'm not looking to compete with Escorts for damage in PvE in a Cruiser. That wouldn't make sense. It's about bringing enough damage - and - perhaps other things. Painting a group of mobs in EWP is something the Escort can't do. It's something that makes it easier for the Escorts to do their damage. I'll bring heals to toss to them - so they can stay in the fight longer. I try to bring what I can...I don't try to be something I'm not. That can lead to missing out on what is possible.
What about Heavy Escort Carriers with Elite Fleet Runabouts? Quit making sweeping generalizations based on certain builds!
In regard to competing in damage - everybody should be trying to (in PvE, at any rate. YMMV in PvP). Unless, of course, you're trying to sell the general public on the idea that a Cryptic game's reward structure isn't firmly DPS-biased in almost all instances (they tried to change it up with the new CE event, but...) and, if so, good luck with that.
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Joined January 2010.
I apologize to you all, I've asked the thread to be closed.
I hope the message has been sent. Virusdancer doesn't and probably can't understand our point of view, he's basically lostt hope on cruisers already. Cruisers that I believe yet live only thanks to this 2xEPtX/2xEPtY "Dragon build" and the Aux2Batt build that uses the cycling of EP abilities as well (what else slot?, Eng team?).
That's possibly soon gonna be over. Thanks all for posting.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Comments
I couldn't imagine having the 4x EPtX (2X/2Y) that folks talk about. I've never done that. It's one of those things where I see the slots as wasted. I prefer making the opportunity cost of not having something potentially available to have something that's going to be available instead.
It's one of the things that has always driven me crazy about the En Eng BOFFs - because outside of a ship with a single Lt Eng BOFF - I'll never use EPtX above EPtX1. I've always made the choice to go with the EPtX1 and take one of the higher ranked Eng abilities than have an EPtX ability sitting there that I may or may not use.
I used to reroll every 2-3 weeks before S7 - since it was so easy to level and gear up back then. I've spent a lot of time flying different ships, different builds, different gearings, etc, etc, etc - by no means an expert on them all, much less an expert on any of them to be true.
Until the Winter Event and getting the Chel Grett, my main (a reroll for S7 like the rest) flew a Cruiser. I made the switch and basically didn't look back. Recently for some testing, I did...and...it was painful. He had far more survivability in an Escort than a Cruiser. I had a Tac in an Ambassador, and switched her to an Escort. Again, I saw that noticeable increase in survivability. I had another Eng in a Mirror Vor'cha that went to a Kamarag and now flies a JHEC. The JHEC doesn't have the +10% Defense like the HEC does (MAJOR MEH! /cough)...but still, there was a slight increase in survivability.
Cruisers are just too broke, imho, to enjoy flying them. The S7 changes, the LoR changes (even outside of the EPtX changes), well...almost everything that Cryptic has been doing since around Apr-May of last year has made them less enjoyable for me to fly. That's with them already having things that put them at a disadvantage, imo...
Were they to address several things (never going to happen) - I could see enjoying them as much as I do other ships.
I've actually dorked around with some 2x EPtE, 2x EPtW, as well as shifting from EPtS/EPtW to 2x EPtS. Unfortunately, this change which was supposedly meant to...possibly do away with the 2x EPtX - has made it only that much more likely to run it. Bah...
Oh yeah, my only issue was the effect separating Cruisers out might cause...the changes themselves are fubar on Tribble, lol...they're a complete cluster...er...yeah.
The guy trying to sell you Strawberry Ice Cream is going to tell you that it is better than Chocolate Ice Cream...just saying.
Which is a core problem with the ship, engineering boff choices AND this change. The development team needs to know this. And needs to discuss this with people testing changes they make to this situation.
I mean if they plan on doing something about BOFF powers and shared cooldowns, now would be an excellent time for someone at Cryptic to say so.
But making this change and not saying anything? I don't know. Just not a good situation.
This is where communication should be happening. The devs should be saying something in response to this. I mean there's nothing wrong with taking EPtX off of the continuous uptime, in a vaccuum. But doing so in the framework of Ensign Engi abilities? It's a bad move. There's nothing else to choose other than Engi Team, which runs into shared cooldown problem with Tactical Team and Science Team.
It's kind of frustrating you know? On a bad day, I'd be all indignant and ask the devs if they have ever kitted out an Exploration Cruiser. Heh.
Changes like that are what the test server's for right? Well, along with discussion back and forth with those making the changes and those testing the changes.
That's what I think is causing the problems with these particular changes.
Even a carrier can rely on pets for damage and does not need EPtW in the same sense that a cruiser does.
This is why its such a punch in the throat. There's no choice here, you aren't making a tradeoff where benefit X yields penalty Y, you're being forced into the penalty with no benefit. While at the same time, other classes are actually getting benefit with no penalty.
Its insane
I just don't understand this take on Cruiser builds. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's generally assumed that the Dragon build and the Aux2Batt build are two of the better Cruiser builds out there, and they both use constant uptime on EPtS and EPtW. I honestly don't think that there's anything in the Lt Eng stations that reasonably compares to being able to maintain >100 power in both Weapons and Shields (often 125+ in both) at all times. The only non-EPtX powers in the Lt Eng slots that are really worthwhile are Aux2Batt (which encourages you to run constant uptime on EPtS and EPtW anyway, just in a different way), Aux2SIF (where you're generally MUCH better served with higher levels of the ability), and RSP. There is very little opportunity cost to running EPtW 1 x2 and EPtS 2 x2 (or vice versa on the levels of the abilities) and there's a LOT of gain, even before considering their secondary effects or using them with DOffs to further boost the abilities.
Even tabling that argument for the moment, at least the option is there for us to disagree over the viability of 4x EPtX builds and both have valid points. The changes that are being implemented on Tribble strip this choice completely - the cost to run 4x EPtX becomes too high, and is only a penalty to ships that have 2x Lt+ Engineering BOff seats... namely Cruisers. On the other hand, the effect on ships with only one Engineering BOff seat, or even an Lt Eng and an Ens Eng (namely everything that isn't a Cruiser) is all but nonexistent. That consideration makes this essentially a Cruiser nerf which, I think that most on the forums would agree, is almost totally uncalled for. Even if the 4x EPtX builds that I mentioned earlier were performing decently, they were in no way broken and definitely didn't need to be nerfed to the point of being completely invalid.
Overall, this change just baffles me. I'm thankful that I run Aux2Batt on my Cruisers (for now, anyway... how long until that major investment gets busted?) and almost universally use 2x EPtS on all of my other ships, so this won't hit me personally too badly, but it seems to me like removing valid options and limiting choice outside of obvious balance decisions are going to have a negative impact on the game overall.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
It almost looks like Cryptic feels cruisers have too much power, maybe it has something to do with the singularity for romulan ships. The point is, the overpowered cruisers probably were better than escorts in some (one) area (power) and this needed to be fixed, so the escort online game is not threatened.
Wow... if that's the case, then Cruisers are going to be almost literally unplayable. I hadn't gotten around to testing the changes with my Aux2Batt builds yet, but that's my next priority after I finish downloading the 'huge' patch.
Incredible... despite the months (or more) of forum threads relating to Cruisers being completely outclassed by the other ship types, Cryptic found it in themselves to rip out the heart of the only two really effective Cruiser builds. I guess I should be glad that of my nine level 50 characters, only three of them fly Cruisers or Battle Cruisers... *sigh*
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
I fly an A2B cruiser and escort, suffice to say I know how powerful the A2B build is. I know I've posted this many times now, and here's to another time:
If you are running only one copy of EPtX, this change to Emergency Powers is amazing news. double A2B builds will now be able to chain it back to back every 20 seconds down from 30 seconds demonstrated below: :rolleyes:
0s: Uses EPtX and A2B#1 - EPtX is now on 33s cooldown due to A2B.
10s: Use A2B#2 - EPtX is now further reduced down to 10s (global cap)
20s: Use EPtX again.
This is the basic cycling of EPtX powers on Tribble assuming that you're using 3 purple technician doffs. If you have a mix of blue and purple technician doffs, then you'll probably land around the 22s-25s. Still very good.
However, if you're running a copy of EPtX and EPtY, then you'll run into the same issues with the global CD cap as demonstrated below:
0s: Use EPtX and A2B#1 - EPtX is now on 33s and EPtY is now shared CD of 15s.
10s: Use A2B#2 - EPtX is now down to the 10s global cap again....
15s: (Option A) EPtY is now available to use - should you choose to use it, you'll set EPtX's CD to 15s without any way of reducing it. No amount of A2B will help you reduce that cap.
20s: (Option
30s: If you chose to use EPtY at 15s, EPtX is now available again. Rinse and repeat.
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
I will as soon as I'm able - I just transferred one of my Aux2Batt characters over... unfortunately, he's being effected by the "can't place Bridge Officers into ship stations" bug at the moment. Once that gets resolved, it'll just take me a couple of minutes in Sol System to figure out how the interactions are working.
Unless, of course, some kind soul who transferred an Aux2Batt character over before the bug beats me to it!
Edit: And I was beaten to it. Yay for information, boo for Aux2Batt being broken just as badly as the Dragon build. Guess I'll be mothballing my Cruisers completely when LoR hits, or changing to 2x EPtS and finding something else to do with the free Engineering BOff slots (ha!).
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
Bingo
I don't know about your builds specifically, but I must disagree that this change will have no impact on other ships. Escorts running x2 copies of EPtS now get a heal/regen every 20 seconds, rather than every 30. So not only are cruisers going to become even more toothless without weapon power, more toothless without EPtW dmg bonus, and yet even more toothless with the drain on beams dropping you to low 40's or 30's now, we have an even SMALLER window to do damage in.
Not to mention that this could be seen as a general buff to the other ship types in PvP and PvE - they're hardly affected by the 5s downtime per cycle, and now get to have their shields heal three times per minute instead of twice as it stands on Holodeck now.
FANtastic.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
Here's something to think about: 3 purple technician doffs will give you a total of 30% CD reduction from the base CD of the skill per use. Since EPtX's base CD is 45s, 30% of that is approximately 13s.
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!
Yep. Good times, good times.
I was looking at the negative ramifications for cruises, but yes I agree with your assessment that this is most probably going to be a buff for any ship not running multiple types of emergency powers...so everyone else lol.
It's a strongly enough related issue for the timing changes to penalise Cruisers more than other ship classes. Cruiser commanders came up with a couple of good workarounds to allow them to use their bridge officer slots as well as escort and science vessel commanders can use theirs, but the Tribble versions of EPtX do their damnedest to break them.
Cruisers have got the worst of this. Very few non-Cruisers even contemplate using EPtX in anything other than an ensign slot, and workarounds for non-Cruisers are much easier--for example, using 1x EPtS + 1x EPtW without Aux2Bat or DCE duty officers has an easy workaround of moving entirely to 2x EPtS and adjusting your power settings--but Cruisers are now also forced to use EPtX I or leave ensign slots fallow in all but a few rarified situations (specifically PvP premade groups where the ship wouldn't have its own copy of Tactical Team, instead relying on receiving the buff from a teamate when in need).
From what I have read, most of the community who is against these changes agree that cruisers come off worst with these changes. As I explained above, the knock-on effects are relatively easy for escorts and science vessels to work around without substantial impact on performance, but similar workarounds are far harder on cruisers.
Considering Cruisers are the lowest performing ship class, is this really surprising? Their mobility is poor, they have the most unappealing bridge officer power set, their canon weapons don't work well with each other, and any advantage they have in durability is far smaller than the advantage science ships have in support or that escorts have in damage.
Fornicate that excrement. This game puts the majority of the most memorable vessels from the IP it's based on into the category "Cruiser". It's a disservice to those iconic vessels and their fans to leave them languishing in such a suboptimal state.
Another factor affecting Aux2Bat is that the Tier 4 Nukara passive gives substantial skill bouses (offensive or defensive, depending on choice) based on your current Auxiliary Power level; the higher the power level, the better the bonus.
Also, Aux2Bat, with 3 Very Rare Technicians, will let a single EPtX power run at 20 second cooldown. It won't mitigate gaps between EPtX + EPtY ; you're getting 10 seconds coverage gap per Emergency Power ability.
Likewise, some of the comments made in regard to non-Cruiser vessels have them all flying the perfect build to highlight potential discrepancies between these particular Cruiser builds and the non-Cruiser builds. Once again though, those are specific non-Cruiser builds. Yes, they're still non-Cruisers, but they're specific non-Cruiser builds. So it's not a completely non-Cruiser thing.
It's basically a Cruiser build vs. non-Cruiser build discussion amongst some of the folks where they're trying to exaggerate just how bad they are off with Cruisers...when it's they're builds and not Cruisers.
It's insulting both to Cruisers and non-Cruisers alike.
Who hasn't had a build screwed up by some changes that Cryptic has made? Hell, it's one of the reasons that I tended to reroll guys so often back before S7. I sure wasn't going to buy a respec token every time Cryptic broke one of my builds. Course, they did S7 and now...well...I neither reroll nor buy the respec tokens. I fly my TRIBBLE broken by their various changes and deal with it. Sometimes, I'm even the one suggesting that the break it because it's too powerful. Twisted, eh? Well, it happens when something is fine and they end up introducing/buffing something else. Buff/Nerfs can both break things.
I'm amazed at the desire to cling to certain bandaids that have been applied to address the undeniable issues that exist with Cruisers. These bandaids not only benefit Cruisers, but they benefit anybody that chooses to use them. In the majority of cases, they actually benefit non-Cruisers more than Cruisers. Both Escorts and Science Vessels will get more out of the EPtX abilities than Cruisers do.
EPtA: Who's running the lowest Aux? Who uses the most abilities based on Aux?
EPtE: Who's the speed tank? Who's got the abilities with the smallest arcs?
EPtS: Who doesn't have much room to carry other heals? Who's primarily a shield tank?
EPtW: It's a final modifier - who's going got the highest damage before it's applied? Who's already running two other systems high?
Those abilities simply do not work as well for Cruisers because of the sorry state that Cruisers are in to begin with...it's like beggars clamoring for scraps so they can continue to remain subpar.
It's infuriating. It really is.
I get the not wanting to be taken down further, I get that, but it doesn't make it any less infuriating.
Cause face it:
Lack of Engineering BOFF choices. So painfully evident at the Ensign level. Does it matter as much for non-Cruisers? Nope. They work out pretty well for non-Cruisers. /cough Escorts.
As an aside here, consider PH/HE/TSS over there is Sci. Do they make sense for Sci? Not in the least. Guess what though? They work out pretty well for.../cough...Escorts.
Does Cruiser turn rate need to be buffed? Many say Hell Yes! I disagree. That won't fix anything when the issue is Escorts turn too fast. DHCs "supposedly" do more damage because of their limited arcs. /cough Those arcs aren't that limited when you can turn as fast as an Escort can.
Speaking of DHCs, that gets into DHCs vs. Beams. There is a fixed modifier in the difference between their DPV and DPS. That's a horrible thing. That means the more that damage can be boosted - the more that gap between DHCs and Beams will grow. What starts out as a gap of 74 DPV for the standard/base damage between the two weapons can reach over 2000. What starts out as a gap of 36 DPS can reach 1000 or more.
By the way, that's before you get into the drain mechanics.
The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on...
...so yeah, I can see the pleading for that gap not to continue to grow. Unfortunately, it does grow. It grows with everything added to the game.
Say they don't make these changes - say folks are able to continue with their builds.
Have you looked at the rest of what else is being added with LoR?
Yeah, perhaps I'm foolish to think that we should fight for some core changes with this major expansion. I know it's insane with less than three weeks to launch. But that's me...flaky, I guess.
But still, just because it's breaking certain Cruiser builds does not mean it's breaking Cruisers. Just because it will buff certain non-Cruiser builds does not mean it's buffing non-Cruisers.
People always like the hyperbole...they like twisted extrapolation...they like...well, yeah...
...this particular discussion has been taking place in several threads.
Regardless of any discussion in regard to Cruisers or specific Cruiser builds - the proposed changes are such a total mess that it should transcend all of that. Too many folks have a chip on their shoulders though...there's all this petty bickering taking place that's distracting from just how bad these changes are.
Isn't that what the plea to the developers should be?
"to penalise Cruisers more"
"a couple of good workarounds"
That makes it a build issue...not a Cruiser issue.
"Very few non-Cruisers even contemplate using EPtX in anything other than an ensign slot"
Very few non-Cruisers have much more than an Ensign slot...
JHAS - Cmdr/LCdr, En, Lt/Lt
Fleet Defiant - Cmdr/LCdr/En, Lt, Lt
Fleet Nova - LCdr, Lt, Cmdr/Lt/En
Wells - En, Cmdr/Lt, LCdr/Lt
Chimera - Cmdr, Lt, Lt, LCdr/En
Even if Cruisers run higher EPtX versions than EPtX1, they're still going to be running the EPtX1 as well. What, are they running 2x ET1? Are the 3x Eng BOFF Cruisers running 3x ET1?
Complaining about how this affects the 4x EPtX Cruisers builds is complaining about 4x EPtX Cruiser builds...not Cruisers. Not everybody runs 4x(2+2) EPtX/Y. Some people actually run EPtX/EPtY and use DCE DOFFs on their Cruisers. They're affected in the same way as everybody else running that. Dismissing those that run that...is also dismissing Cruiser builds that run that. Dismissing Cruisers while saying Cruisers? Mind-boggling...eh?
The real issue is the lack of Ensign Engineering BOFFs. That potentially affects all Cruisers...not just those running higher level EPtX abilities. If they were to add more Ensign Engineering BOFF abilities, would the 4x guys even care? After all, they're running their 100% uptime EPtS/EPtW without having to use DOFFs to do so. They're enjoying that. Frankly, I'd rather use three DOFFs and have two BOFF abilities available.
That's leaving out many of the reasons why many of the folks have stated that they will affect Cruisers more. I disagree with some of them and wholeheartedly agree on others. Even there, it's going to come down to the builds...and...it may require that folks adjust their builds. People don't want to do that...that's been very obvious in many of the threads.
As part of the communication that needs to take place, imho, both the players and devs need to have a conversation about builds. If the devs believe there are viable builds out there, they should give some examples and be able to back them up in both PvE and PvP. If the players believe there are builds that will no longer be viable because of the change, they need to give examples to the devs and be ready to accept the devs saying that such build will no longer be viable...while presenting other viable options for players.
But all of that is dependent upon there actually being logical changes...and the proposed changes are - Hell, sorry devs - but the current iteration of changes are TRIBBLE... no ifs, ands, or buts...they're a mess.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're trying to say that people who are claiming that Cruisers are getting the short end of this stick are setting up a false dichotomy. As I noted in my post upthread, which I've quoted here for convenience, that's simply not the case:
It's not a Cruiser nerf because it hits particular Cruiser builds; it's a Cruiser nerf because it completely removes two of the more popular Cruiser builds from the game. It's a Cruiser nerf because Cruisers are really the only ship type that's capable of being hit with the worst aspect of this ability change. It's a Cruiser nerf because it limits the variety of BOff abilities that Cruisers will be able to effectively slot.
It's not a Sci or Escort nerf because it does not remove any of their builds, and they can cope with any changes to existing builds without nearly as much loss in effectiveness. In fact, with one of the most popular Sci/Escort uses of an Lt Eng slot (EPtS 1/EPtS2), it's a buff. They trade 5 seconds of downtime per cycle for the ability to execute 33% more shield heals in the same time period. Not too shabby.
Overall, I doubt that Escorts and Sci ships will be running EPt(something other than S) even with the buffs to E, W, and A. Escorts get plenty of firepower out of their Tac seats, and are comfortable reserving their Eng seats for survivability, and a heal beats extra defenses in that department - particularly with the availability of other options to boost speed (Evasive, consumables, AP:O). Sci ships (especially Vesta variants) were already running at high Aux and won't benefit appreciably from the ability boosts rolled in with EPtA... and they're also generally comfortable reserving their Lt Eng slot for survivability.
So, in short, because of the BOff abilities available to Cruisers v. non-Cruisers this is at best a nerf for Cruisers and, at worst, a minor inconvenience for non-Cruisers (and, at best, a buff for non-Cruisers).
Or, if it makes you feel better, I can just as easily say that this is a nerf to any ship with 2x Lt Engineer seats or more, and a buff to any ship with up to 1x Lt Engineer and 1x Ensign Engineer and leave it to you to figure out which ships fall into which category. People aren't railing so much about certain Cruiser builds, but about the fact that this is a nerf to a BOff seating arrangement that's most prevalent on Cruisers (and, yes, removal of choice in your builds is a nerf in its own right).
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
All decent cruiser builds, and thus all cruisers rely on multiple EPX powers.
Honestly, the same is largely true of Tac Ensign slots as well. Outside of corner case builds that can make good use of that third Tac Ensign slot for a torpedo skill, it's Tac Team all the way down. Really, what all is there for Tac Ensigns? Tac Team, BFAW (ha!), BO (ha, again!), TS (o.k.), and THY (o.k.).
Sci is really the only department that has any appreciable variety and usefulness in its Ensign slots, with three or four abilities that really aren't terrible for almost any build.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
On the other hand, taking a torpedo on an Escort that could otherwise have been all-DHC is a DPS loss*. Period.
Oh, and as an added bonus, it forces you to spend Captain skill points to make it less of a DPS loss rather than something that actually improves your damage out.
Which puts Escorts with three Tac Ensign slots in a pretty rough place as well - do you take the torpedo and the DPS loss to be able to use that third Tac Ensign, or do you waste the slot?
*Excluding PvP where burst damage through an open shield facing can be a bigger deal than sustained DPS, and also where I have less experience to speak from.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
A person running 1x EPtX is going from a 15s to 25s gap. That is not solely a Cruiser issue. It can be a Cruiser issue for somebody that's not chaining a pair of EPtX abilities, but is rather using them as needed. That's not solely a Cruiser issue either, as that may be the case with Science Vessels as well.
A person running EPtX/EPtY with DCE DOFFs is going from a 0s gap to a 10s gap. That 10s gap doesn't care if the person is in a Cruiser, Escort, or Science Vessel. They're all going to experience that gap.
A person running 2x EPtX that's going to be experiencing that 5s gap every 40s...that 5s gap doesn't care what ship the person is in.
Even the 4x can technically be run in non-Cruisers.
My two Cruisers are not going to be affected in the same way as the people running 4x. They run 2x EPtS. They're going to enjoy those same heals that some people are making out that only non-Cruisers will get (/headscratch). They'll have a 5s or less gap to cover, which for an Eng in a Cruiser is not much of a gap to have to cover. Heck, with the additional changes in LoR - it will be even easier. (This is part of where I complain out the wahzoo about the disparity being introduced with these changes between folks running different variations of EPtX.)
These changes are great for my Cruisers.
Not so for my Escorts that now have that 10s gap. Not so for my Science Vessel that's looking at a pair of 25s gaps. Not so for my Carrier which I'm likely to give up flying. I had been thinking about working toward a Fleet Corsair as a replacement before the announcement of the changes...now, not so much.
Different people fly different builds. The changes will affect people and their builds differently. Trying to lay out a blanket statement that it's bad for Cruisers just isn't true...when in some cases it's actually a buff.
It's bad for some Cruisers. No doubt in the least about that. It's horrible for some Cruisers. It destroys the build. That's not the same as saying it's bad for Cruisers though.
All of those are build nerfs...not Cruiser nerfs. I mean, look at what you've said there - it's not a nerf for Cruisers because it nerfs Cruiser builds, it's a Cruiser nerf because it nerfs Cruiser builds? Seriously? That's what you just said. It's right there.
I mean, is this one of those things that I have to step back and accept that it's a Cruiser nerf because it nerfs a Cruiser build and thus reduces the number of available Cruiser builds?
Guess what? It does that to non-Cruisers as well. Is it more of a Cruiser nerf because it eliminates a build that can't be run on non-Cruisers? That's kind of what's being said, no?
But that is complete and utter BS...it does remove builds for non-Cruisers.
And that is complete and utter BS to suggest that Cruisers won't get the same benefit from healing. Cruisers can do the same thing.
EPtW is a final modifier. It's applied after everything else. EPtW is going from 5s to 20s. EPtW is losing 10s of +Pwr in exchange for +15s of final modifier damage. Are Escorts about Pressure or Spike Damage? EPtW is pretty good looking.
What's a good way to kill an Escort? SNB/Tractor - drop their bonus defense from over 100% down to 10-15% or so? Have you seen what EPtE does for an Escort on Tribble? They get outside that 5km range of the Tractor and...EPtE is pretty good looking.
EPtA provides a bonus to Stealth Detection. Currently that is only for 5s. That's going to be for 20s. Sci Vessels receive a higher bonus to Stealth Detection from their Aux levels than non-Sci Vessels. Pretty handy for detecting those sneaky Klingons, eh? Oh yeah, aren't they adding a new faction where every ship's got a Battle Cloak?
I can't think of anything kind to say in reply to that...can't think of anything to say that won't end up with mods sending me pesky messages to behave myself.
Anything I would say to this would be worse than what I was going to say to the paragraph above it...
I think this could explain quite a bit of where I might be at odds with some folks in this thread. I was all gung ho to go with a certain reply when I read the first part, but I took a deep breath and read through the rest..including down to the * note.
I do not consider myself a PvPer. I do not consider myself a PvEer. I do both. Even the people that claim to be solely PvPers, still have to PvE in the game - it's the only way to gear - only way to grind the Reps - etc, etc, etc.
That being said, I don't have any PvE builds. All of my builds are PvP builds. Course, with regard to some of the builds out there - one could say there's no difference between PvE/PvP - they're the same build. I do have a build that's all but useless in PvE - the others are well beyond adequate to help accomplish the optionals in any ESTF. Heh, NWS is a different story of course. Then again, I've been in a group of 5 Eng Cruisers (none of them 4x) where we've completed the optional in ISE with plenty of time to spare. Wouldn't want to try that in CSE of course though, lol. Folks have completed optionals with Mirandas though.
While it is only my experience (not necessarily always the case) - when people are generally complaining about ship types/builds etc...it's because they're part of the Efficient Crowd and are looking to complete ESTFs in 5 minutes. 10-15 minutes just takes too damn long for them. They shouldn't PUG then, imho. And if it's a case of coming across somebody with a build that's so atrocious that they kill the optional - well, it's not likely them - since you don't even need a full five to complete most of the ESTFs with the optional. But still, in coming across those folks - it's usually more helpful to try to talk to them kindly...rather than deride them and hope you never see them again. Karma's quirky that way - you'll likely meet that person and all their friends over and over and over again.
I was in a bugged Fleet Defense a week or so ago. There was one guy that started going off on everybody...I was actually enjoying it. We failed. Can't remember the last time failing one of those. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that I died more during it than I'd died in the week leading up to that. Was on a KDF toon, and it started off with around 2-3 times the normal amount of Feds and added the same 2-3 times the normal amount with each wave. I've never seen so much Phaser and Quantum spam. CRFs, CSVs, FAW, Spreads, High Yields, PDS spam...so many MVAMs. It was epic. And...we got slaughtered. The field was constantly full of Quants flying all over the place and there was so much Phaser spam that shields were dropping left, right, and center...right as those Quants would slam into folks. Folks would try to bring their shields back online in time, usually handling it - but there was just so much spam - didn't always happen. Weapons going offline, engines going offline and folks losing their bonus defense, aux going offline and nuking various abilities and aux based heals. It was freaking awesome. It's something I would have liked to tackle with an actual group...it's something that I wish was an actual encounter in the game. It would have been challenging. Sure enough, the one after that was the same ol' - same ol' flying around in circles while randomly tapping the spacebar and watching TV.
Yeah, CSE can be easy or it can be tricky. HSE is the same. NWS is the DPS fest that it is.
But with so many of the complaints and things said by certain folks that primarily PvE - I just don't get it. Even other PvE folks don't get it. I mean, c'mon - threads asking why the Borg were nerfed and why the Borg were buffed at the same time, eh? C'mon...meh.
Still, I don't come at builds thinking about PvE. I come at them thinking about PvP. I know that some of the builds I will do for PvP will be useless for PvE because PvE simply doesn't require that kind of build. On that same toon though, I can just drop them in another ship and not be concerned about failing any optionals.
I'm not looking to compete with Escorts for damage in PvE in a Cruiser. That wouldn't make sense. It's about bringing enough damage - and - perhaps other things. Painting a group of mobs in EWP is something the Escort can't do. It's something that makes it easier for the Escorts to do their damage. I'll bring heals to toss to them - so they can stay in the fight longer. I try to bring what I can...I don't try to be something I'm not. That can lead to missing out on what is possible.
As for the survivability...I've tanked Cubes, Spheres, Gates, Donatra, Queens in everything from a Cruiser, Carrier, through a Sci Vessel, and even a BoP. I'm not sure how anybody manages to die outside of getting hit by an invisispread that catches them offguard.
Let me try a different approach - let's look at the choices that are currently available for the two types of Engineer BOff seating arrangements that are likely to be affected by this: 2x Lt+ Engineer seats, and 1x Lt Engineer + 1x Ensign Engineer or less and the choices that will be realistically available after the changes. Buffs will be in green, yellow will be for nerfs that are still a possible choice in some circumstances, and red will be for nerfs that render the combination all but literally unusable.
2x Lt Eng or more
1. 2x EPtX - uptime gets increased for many choices, and the benefit/time is boosted for others
2. 1x EPtX, 1x something else - these builds have a slight change to their uptime, but the cooldown structure remains the same, not affecting other abilities.
3. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY - these builds were generally not relying on 100% uptime for both abilities, and have to deal with a small change in how their cooldowns effect one another.
4. 2x EPtX, 1x EPtY - again, not relying on ability twisting or 100% uptime. Nerf to cooldown interactions, but still usable.
5. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with DCE DOffs - these builds probably were relying on 100% uptime with both abilities. Not any more!
6. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with Aux2Batt and Technicians - these builds were definitely relying on 100% uptime for both abilities. Now impossible to execute.
7. 2x EPtX, 2x EPtY - again, these builds relied on 100% uptime for both abilities. Now impossible to execute.
1x Lt Eng + 1x Ens Eng, or less
1. 2x EPtX - uptime gets increased for many choices, and the benefit/time is boosted for others
2. 1x EPtX, 1x something else - these builds have a slight change to their uptime, but the cooldown structure remains the same, not affecting other abilities.
3. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY - these builds were generally not relying on 100% uptime for both abilities, and have to deal with a small change in how their cooldowns effect one another.
4. 2x EPtX, 1x EPtY - again, not relying on ability twisting or 100% uptime. Nerf to cooldown interactions, but still usable.
5. 1x EPtX, 1x EPtY with DCE DOffs - these builds probably were relying on 100% uptime with both abilities. Not any more!
Which category of ship is paying more for this change, in terms of limitation of choice? Which category of ship has which label in-game?
What about Heavy Escort Carriers with Elite Fleet Runabouts? Quit making sweeping generalizations based on certain builds!
In regard to competing in damage - everybody should be trying to (in PvE, at any rate. YMMV in PvP). Unless, of course, you're trying to sell the general public on the idea that a Cryptic game's reward structure isn't firmly DPS-biased in almost all instances (they tried to change it up with the new CE event, but...) and, if so, good luck with that.
Joined January 2010.
In regard to hating Star Trek 2009:
I hope the message has been sent. Virusdancer doesn't and probably can't understand our point of view, he's basically lostt hope on cruisers already. Cruisers that I believe yet live only thanks to this 2xEPtX/2xEPtY "Dragon build" and the Aux2Batt build that uses the cycling of EP abilities as well (what else slot?, Eng team?).
That's possibly soon gonna be over. Thanks all for posting.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!