If content can be done with a given ship/build, then it is viable. If content is done with a minimum of time or trivialized difficulty, then it is optimal. Everything is else a matter of players selfishly expecting others to conform to their standards of play. If I want to play a science captain and fly a rainbow beam cruiser, if I can complete content and perform to reasonable expectations (and I can, which means it is viable), no matter how "sub-optimal" it may be it's my right to do so as a player. Players have no reasonable expectation of others to conform to their own standards of play.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say I've seen more (and by more, I mean practically every time) optional objective failures, deaths, and wipes that are the result of players doing the DPS race with little to no regard for other players or situational awareness, than someone not being able to "pull their weight" by playing sub-optimally.
Quoted for truth.
Most DPS nutters in pugs seem to suffer from a case of tunnel vision while they fight, I too have seen plenty of failed optionals because some guy decides to go all Kirk and either blow things up too early, or aggro's everything in the room leaving the rest of the team to clean up the mess.
Funnily enough, this is where a good tank and sci ship excel. Cleaning up the mess of trigger happy tacs.
Players aught to play the role they want to play, and the game does let them. It is other narrow minded players that seem to have the biggest problem with it.
Actually no that's not the case. What's happening is that beams are not powerful enough to keep up with the dps of unbuffed non-eptw damage that cannons do. Sci/sci ships that want to do inbetween a heal/debuff don't really work well you either don't do enough damage or the sci powers take away from the other abilities because you have stack consoles that take away from everyhting else because you HAVE to in order to allow for your abilities in the sci or engineer categories to actually DO something that tactical can do without blinking about it.
For example, if you want your particle effects to work you gotta stack particle consoles which takes up space for shields or some other means of keeping yourself alive when everything suddenly notices you and attacks you at once (which happens all too often in these things because there are almost never any tanks). Tin foil ships are so much fun let me tell yeah. If you don't have an escort (which oddly has higher defense then even the flying-the-entire-time sci vessels) then you die alot more often then if you are just giving up and play a gimped tank build on an engineer ship captain combo.
So I'm hearing alot of (you have to only play sci 1 way or you have to only play eng 1 way or else be either too nerfed to damage or be too gimped to survive) not surprisingly from the very people who play escorts all the time and think nothings wrong.
The very reason why they allowed for more options in traits was so that we wouldn't be so stuck in these roles and be able to fly anything we want. Well it's backfired because they haven't disconnected the tactical abilities from everyone else's powers they've gone thru and nerfed entirely too much thus forcing the rest of us back into the roles they were trying to free us from in the first place.
Add to that the escorts having entirely too much defense, unbuffed cannons overpowering beams easily, and the regen of both shield and hull being as high on escorts with any captain as with an engineer captain for hull or sci captain for shields means that basically it's imbalanced. I'm sorry people don't believe it because they are using the gimped roles which are niche roles.
The other thing that i noticed is this seems to be the same exact thing I've seen in other game titles where there's a niche role and build system that people often use in pve and pvp and so since these niche roles work everyone who uses these niche roles keep parroting that the game is perfectly fine. That's not the case. The faster these people come out from their niche fog and realize this the faster things will be taken care of.
Wow, you actually went back and looked at some of my old posts and even took the time to take me own words out of context! Well done!
I think I've reached the internet big leagues now!
The idea behind useful but not needed is a bit hard to grasp if you're used to an absolutist point of view, as I've come to realize a lot of dedicated tanks and healers have in other games. In a way it makes sense, since in those other games they're measured purely by how well they can tank and heal. As a DPS player in most games I tend to consider DPS my main job but I also need to worry about not dying by mitigating damage and self healing, This may be why there's such a split view on it. I see tanking and healing as nice extras that if someone has a group can definitely benefit from, but you see them as something that must be required and lament the fact that groups can succeed without them.
Basically yeah, in STO pure tanks and healers (in fact the very words you took out of context regarding why I would make a healer was in relation to a PURE healer) are not needed and I think its GREAT! Yet bear in mind I do have an engi cruiser tanky and a sci in a sci vessel that does CC. Both are built as DPS ships that can perform their secondary role as well as I can make them. Admittedly I'm not a super elite pilot for those ships but I manage to hold agro while DPSing in one and drop Grav wells and Tachy beams with the other while puttign out as much dps as I can with both.
And if someone else brings a pure unkillable brick and wants to do little damage? They can, and I've yet to see anyone complain because the game is set up in such a way that content can still be done without needing all ships to be optimally set up.
As to why content that would make pure tanks and healers shine is a bad thing for STO, well, that should be pretty obvious don't you think? It promote a type of gameplay that is at odds with the very notion of space combat. I can maybe see support NPC ships that only do CC but for players? No, it wouldn;t amke any sense at all.
The idea behind useful but not needed is a bit hard to grasp if you're used to an absolutist point of view, as I've come to realize a lot of dedicated tanks and healers have in other games. In a way it makes sense, since in those other games they're measured purely by how well they can tank and heal. As a DPS player in most games I tend to consider DPS my main job but I also need to worry about not dying by mitigating damage and self healing, This may be why there's such a split view on it. I see tanking and healing as nice extras that if someone has a group can definitely benefit from, but you see them as something that must be required and lament the fact that groups can succeed without them.
Basically yeah, in STO pure tanks and healers (in fact the very words you took out of context regarding why I would make a healer was in relation to a PURE healer) are not needed and I think its GREAT! Yet bear in mind I do have an engi cruiser tanky and a sci in a sci vessel that does CC. Both are built as DPS ships that can perform their secondary role as well as I can make them. Admittedly I'm not a super elite pilot for those ships but I manage to hold agro while DPSing in one and drop Grav wells and Tachy beams with the other while puttign out as much dps as I can with both.
And there are your true colors. You actually do realize that non-DPS roles are at a severe disadvantage in this game, but since you always primarily play as DPS that benefits you, and so you have no problem with it. The fact that other people might prefer other roles, or even prefer being able to switch around, doesn't concern you at all. You would be perfectly happy if they removed cruisers and sci ships from the game and made the new trinity Fleet Defiant, Fleet Advanced Escort, and Steamrunner (which it almost is now). The rest of us don't agree, we'd actually like to have some significant variety (not just DPS, DPS with a GW, and DPS with an Extend Shields) and some point to it, rather than having it as the major downgrade it is now.
And there are your true colors. You actually do realize that non-DPS roles are at a severe disadvantage in this game, but since you always primarily play as DPS that benefits you, and so you have no problem with it. The fact that other people might prefer other roles, or even prefer being able to switch around, doesn't concern you at all. You would be perfectly happy if they removed cruisers and sci ships from the game and made the new trinity Fleet Defiant, Fleet Advanced Escort, and Steamrunner (which it almost is now). The rest of us don't agree, we'd actually like to have some significant variety (not just DPS, DPS with a GW, and DPS with an Extend Shields) and some point to it, rather than having it as the major downgrade it is now.
Exactly. I'm tired of the niche builds and pidgeonholing, where is the variety? we have 30 skills usually as a sci/sci captain and half of them really don't do anything unless there's a tactical around so we waste all this time pressing buttons waiting on either our sensor analysis to proc or our dual skill beams or plasma beams (because the other ones are worthless) to proc, or by some luck of the draw some tactical to come along and pull the aggro we shouldn't have with our romulan embassy items on your ship.
OR our other option is to play an engineer tank, with beams that barely scratch the surface of shields where we spend most of our time healing ourselves or using resists. exactly where is that fun and why should those be the only choices for eng/sci captains without an escort in tow?
And there are your true colors. You actually do realize that non-DPS roles are at a severe disadvantage in this game, but since you always primarily play as DPS that benefits you, and so you have no problem with it. The fact that other people might prefer other roles, or even prefer being able to switch around, doesn't concern you at all. You would be perfectly happy if they removed cruisers and sci ships from the game and made the new trinity Fleet Defiant, Fleet Advanced Escort, and Steamrunner (which it almost is now). The rest of us don't agree, we'd actually like to have some significant variety (not just DPS, DPS with a GW, and DPS with an Extend Shields) and some point to it, rather than having it as the major downgrade it is now.
Yay for someone nor spending points in their reading comprehension skill!
I HAVE a tank engi cruiser as well as a Sci in sci vessel that CCs, I like having the freedom to set them up as I like. I feel that PCs being toothless tanks or wet noodle healers to be an incredibly poor way to make games, and especially ill fitting to space combat. I also hate having to depend on specialists knowing and performing their roles for teams to succeed, far better to have specialists be optional and beneficial as opposed to required. Guess what? My engi cruiser and my sci in a sci vessel never feel lacking.
Never mind that most players stay away from specialist roles like healer and tank as much as they can, making running team content an event unto itself. Its a shame the die hard players that only play tanks and healers will feel left out but there's plenty of other games that need them, I like STO the way it is and my view is just as valid. I think I'm in the majority on this one.
I know there's a LOT of players that are die hard dedicated tanks and healers in every game they play (even if they're a small fraction of the playerbase), most of them range from "annoyance" to outright hatred for the way STO does not require the trinity. I also know there are several die hard cruiser and sci vessel (in particular psycho janeway's ship) fans that feel their ships should not be relegated to having anchors around their necks (as they refer to having lessened DPS in exchange for having extra abilities, Galaxy fans are legion for example). For their sake I would gladly support some sort of ship costume system so they could have their favorite ship skins over whatever ship they feel is the uberleetest deathmachine.
At least Cryptic seems to have figured out what types of ship player's prefer and from now on we'll see ships revolving around the destroyer concept more and more.
I read your posts and it comes across as you feeling totally underperforming. I really suggest you spend less time being upset about it and more time trying to figure out your build and playstyle. There's several guides and even a 10k Galaxy thread you can look at to get started. I was a terrible pilot myself depending on the cruiser's survivability to get me through things until i saw escorts taking more damage than I could. THis inspired me to start digging and figuring out how to really play, this knowledge has benefited me greatly regardless of which ship I'm flying because the basic principles are exactly the same.
Even though you're complaining about it now you will realize that constantly cycling through resists and self buffs/heals is part of how ALL ships get good performance.
Yet bear in mind I do have an engi cruiser tanky and a sci in a sci vessel that does CC. Both are built as DPS ships that can perform their secondary role as well as I can make them. Admittedly I'm not a super elite pilot for those ships but I manage to hold agro while DPSing in one and drop Grav wells and Tachy beams with the other while puttign out as much dps as I can with both.
So, as I said, you're primarily playing DPS with them, with the theoretical primary class capabilities being only secondary. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, the game in its current state forces you to do that if you want to contribute to the team, that's what this whole thread is complaining about. But a DPS ship with a support ability or two is not the same thing as a support ship that can put out a bit of damage as well.
I feel that PCs being toothless tanks or wet noodle healers to be an incredibly poor way to make games, and especially ill fitting to space combat.
I don't entirely disagree with you on that, at least as far as how much canon sense it makes. But that doesn't matter. Like it or not there are 3 different classes of ship, 3 different captain types, and 3 different sets of abilities that each lend themselves to a certain role. They should all be equally capable of getting through things, just in different ways (the escorts/tacs simply killing things, the scis debuffing or immobilizing enemies to the point that they can handle them readily, and the cruisers/engs simply being invulnerable and wearing enemies down).
I also hate having to depend on specialists knowing and performing their roles for teams to succeed, far better to have specialists be optional and beneficial as opposed to required. Guess what? My engi cruiser and my sci in a sci vessel never feel lacking.
I don't think anyone here wants to make content that can only be completed with all classes working together, STO's queue system would make that a disaster no matter what. But content in which having all of the different classes actually benefits the team should exist, and should make up the bulk of the content in the game. It will probably require a rebalance of a lot of abilities, making low level tanking abilities less effective and higher level ones more effective, modifying or eliminating speed based defense bonuses (and if anything in this game is stupid in terms of canon, that's it), and buffing most of the sci abilities to levels where they're really able to do their job in a substantive and long term way. Then eliminate the one-shots and boost normal damage levels and/or fire rates to compensate so that it's possible to tank successfully but only if a ship is built to be good at it, and make sure the NPCs don't have such high resistances to powers that they're totally ineffective (currently an issue for all power and shield drains, as well as CC and stun against the larger enemies). It would probably also require eliminating the time based optionals, which reward DPS exclusively. With those changes it should be completely possible for a team of 5 escorts to blast their way through the content, they'd die occasionally but get through it no problem. The difference is that a team of 5 sci ships could get through the content with no less trouble, they'd be somewhat slower due to lacking DPS, but they'd debuff and CC the enemies well enough to get through. Similarly, 5 cruisers could also do it, they'd probably be the slowest but also the ones that would never die throughout. And the ideal team would be one with some combination of the 3, with the cruisers taking the hits for everyone else and/or healing them when necessary, and the sci ships weakening enemies for the escorts to destroy. That's not to say that it's not currently possible to do the content with any of those combinations, it's just that some have a much more difficult time than others, and they shouldn't.
One of the things that'd go a long way would be to have a dps increase for using science/engineering skills.
Imagine engineers getting +% damage done for every enemy attacking them over a minimum of 5.
Science abilties could have something too. +% damage done if you heal a friendly player.
Or targets that are effected by science abilities simple take more damage.
Like the above poster mentioned, it'd go a long way if npc's weren't so resistant to science abilities as well.
The content currently favours dps above everything. The bonus objectives in every stf don't help in that regard either.
One of the things that'd go a long way would be to have a dps increase for using science/engineering skills.
Imagine engineers getting +% damage done for every enemy attacking them over a minimum of 5.
Science abilties could have something too. +% damage done if you heal a friendly player.
Or targets that are effected by science abilities simple take more damage.
Like the above poster mentioned, it'd go a long way if npc's weren't so resistant to science abilities as well.
The content currently favours dps above everything. The bonus objectives in every stf don't help in that regard either.
TBH I'd like to see debuffs rather than damage buffs, that way they can be tuned for everyone instead of being artificially limited due to the effect of Tactical buffs (and people can stop blaming Tac's for all their problems then). It'd also fit with the role of a Science ship or Cruiser in that they're still supporting the rest of the group much like a Science officer can currently with Sensor Scan or a Tac with FoMM/ APBeta/ APDelta.
It won't help those that want to be number one damage dealer but it'd be a lot more effective as it'd increase everyone's effective damage.
ETA: I was thinking of the lesser used offensive abilities like Aceton Beam as candidates for a DR debuff rather than the defensive buffs.
Aceton beam is something that goes really nice on those elite tactical cubes.
Again... if you don't want to tank, then do not pay a tank.
But in an elite STF, cruisers and science ships can be useful.
Cruisers can take agro from bosses and tank them, allowing the tacticals to concentrate on dealing damage.
Science ships ? They can debuff, but the best thing about them is gravity well.
A noob did not know the 10% rule in ISE, or let a probe slip trough in KSE ?
Gravity well, allowing for the good players to catch and correct the mistake.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Aceton beam is something that goes really nice on those elite tactical cubes.
Again... if you don't want to tank, then do not pay a tank.
But in an elite STF, cruisers and science ships can be useful.
Cruisers can take agro from bosses and tank them, allowing the tacticals to concentrate on dealing damage.
Science ships ? They can debuff, but the best thing about them is gravity well.
A noob did not know the 10% rule in ISE, or let a probe slip trough in KSE ?
Gravity well, allowing for the good players to catch and correct the mistake.
I don't have an issue with either Cruisers or Science ships in STFs, but Aceton Beam is one of those abilities that may as well not be there. It does a decent job of dealing with energy damage but even an Escort can deal with that from an NPC, it's the kinetic damage from torpedoes that hurts and it does nothing for those.
Cruisers can make themselves useful just by carrying a single copy of EWP but it's rare I see a Cruiser laying plasma, which is a shame as it's a nice DoT and does a nice job of bunching Sphere's to be destroyed ( a nice line of Plasma across the path will get them all). On the other hand it just makes TBR even more annoying than usual when some tool scatters the Spheres that are patiently waiting to die in a plasma bath.
Even an escort that has the tier v reputation gear and is specialised to tank borg can take that energy damage. (Because one with normal mark XII purple shields sure cant, even with EMTPS and tactical team, and field emitter and shield amplifier consoles)
The problem with eject warp plasma is that it spawns after you like a mine. Cruisers are slow and hard to manoever, so it does not fit well with them.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Even an escort that has the tier v reputation gear and is specialised to tank borg can take that energy damage.
The problem with eject warp plasma is that it spawns after you like a mine. Cruisers are slow and hard to manoever, so it does not fit well with them.
The NPCs all follow the same path every time, I've never had an issue getting them in EWP, and I'm using a Regent with no turn rate buffs or RCS consoles. If there's someone in game that can't manage to lay EWP across a predetermined path then they have bigger problems than how much their Cruiser sucks, mostly because the problem's the other side of the monitor.
The NPCs all follow the same path every time, I've never had an issue getting them in EWP, and I'm using a Regent with no turn rate buffs or RCS consoles. If there's someone in game that can't manage to lay EWP across a predetermined path then they have bigger problems than how much their Cruiser sucks, mostly because the problem's the other side of the monitor.
You got me there. Though non determined paths are harder.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
An easy mistake is to think that you can heal the dead.
All the people whining for nerfing the escorts are fighting escorts that are fully kitted out with reputation items and abilities. I am really sick and tired of PVP ruining the PVE. I wish PVP was removed from STO.
If you take those away, the escorts are suddenly not that tank-able any more. Even with purple mark XII shields, they die easily without rep tier V sets.
Taking the armor consoles away would result in instant deaths. Instant ones.
Again... you can't heal those. Oh. And escorts running away from enemies with evasive manovers is NOT tanking the cube.
But Cryptic seems to think that Escorts do too much damage, so they are making the tactical captain new traits for tanking.
So with the human buff nerf, I expect tacticals in cruisers.
Take off pvp? Im a roleplayer and even I think thats an extremely terrible idea. And howis pve ruined exactly, you can finish every objective with any combinations of career ship combination of appropriate level, its not like you HAVE to finish everything in 4 minutes or less right.
I think the solution is to disintenivize dying a lot (which i observe even in speedrunning 5 tac teams) maybe a longer initial respawn? Make injuroes start at the major level? Havea
repair minigame? Feedback on how, uch you are dying? A, modifierto
Take off pvp? Im a roleplayer and even I think thats an extremely terrible idea. And howis pve ruined exactly, you can finish every objective with any combinations of career ship combination of appropriate level, its not like you HAVE to finish everything in 4 minutes or less right.
I think the solution is to disintenivize dying a lot (which i observe even in speedrunning 5 tac teams) maybe a longer initial respawn? Make injuroes start at the major level? Havea
repair minigame? Feedback on how, uch you are dying? A, modifierto
I understand your first part. All the people seem to whine so much because their rainbow beam boats get beaten up there that its beyond annoying, and I don't want my stuff nerfed due to their noobness.
As for the second part... is that even English? From what I see I think you mean people should die more in STFs? I am sorry if I decrypted it wrong, but that is a mess of miss-types and the grammar is not exactly super either.
Bad idea, noobs die too much already.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I understand your first part. All the people seem to whine so much because their rainbow beam boats get beaten up there that its beyond annoying, and I don't want my stuff nerfed due to their noobness
Hang on a minute, I happen to fly a tac/scort (a pretty damn good one at that) from time to time and I think they are too powerful, they can tank too well and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs to learn to play (I don't like saying it but the truth hurts). You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.
It also happens that I know some of the cruiser pilots who complain about escorts in game and some are damned good players.
Hang on a minute, I happen to fly a tac/scort (a pretty damn good one at that) from time to time and I think they are too powerful, they can tank too well and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs to learn to play (I don't like saying it but the truth hurts). You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.
It also happens that I know some of the cruiser pilots who complain about escorts in game and some are damned good players.
I have been trying to tank elite tactical cubes , and you just can not do it with an escort, even one kitted out to tank. I tried. Fleet patrol escort with Adapted Maco set and 4 armor consoles.
Also, are you complaining about escorts that are fully kitted out with best gear? Because those should be very powerful. End game gear in all games tends to make your character very powerful, as it should after all the time and effort you put it in getting it.
As for the latter part.... either your definition of "damned good" means that they know which end of the ship is fore or aft, or that they get too butthurt over the fact they don't win all PVP matches they enter. So they are propably very far from any version of "good" in my book.
I always tell of these threads to my guild mates, who laugh at people whining about cruisers and science vessels not being good enough, while escorts being OP. That whole thing is just a lie preparated by bad players I'm afraid, who want an invincible ship that kills everything in 10 kilometers around it.
I watched a PVP they did, and a Wells brought down a Kumari in a 1-1 fight. The catch? I attacked the Kumari, and it took a beating that would have blown up a tactical cube in an elite STF.
I dare not imagine how hard I would have failed against the Wells. The wells had a science captain, the Kumari a tactical one.
The catch? Its a role play guild, not a heavy PVE or PVP one.
Though some of them do get tips from a very good PVE guild... Risa squadron perhaps? Something with Risa in it, I'm sure of it.
Maybe you should try asking them for a better build. This is a good advice. Take it.
There are some quite deadly cruisers out there, and they are nigh invincible. With a little bit of research yours can be one too.
Derp, even I can try to show a good cruiser build.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Maybe you should try asking them for a better build. This is a good advice. Take it.
There are some quite deadly cruisers out there, and they are nigh invincible. With a little bit of research yours can be one too.
Why would I want to seek out a built that is inferior to my own?
MY Tac/scort will sail through a Tac cube on elite on a standard day, it's only a bad day when I take a one shot and die, my eng/cruiser (beamboat) puts out around 5k DPS over an STF (maybe you should see it before telling me how fail it is) and my Sci ship... well that's a work in progress waiting for PvP bootcamp to restart.
You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.
The last time i was on Tribble you could actually take ALL space traits at once and still have one free slot for a racial/ground trait and guess what, tacs are getting tankier (-acc proc on all weapons, possibly stackable from more than one player, what was the person who made it up thinking?).
When I read this topic (or any other concerning the fact that the Engineer class has become practically useless and Science Captain's last hope is in SubNuke in pvp...) one question bothers me - who do so many people (most likely using tac/escorts) resent the idea that future end game content may require teamwork? This game's a MMO, you're supposed to interact with other players to achieve some ingame goals.
What concerns me even more about the community is the fact that most players when asked, whether they'd like the trinity model to be somewhat strengthened, reply that "we don't want to be forced into a particular role". Hmm where's the logic in that? Currently the game FORCES the player to fulfill the damage dealer role. You can choose to mix it with another role(like cc/healing/tanking) but you'll most likely end up with a character that is "underperforming" (from gameplay's point of view). Personally, I don't see any harm in requiring players to be better teamplayers to succeed as long as it is limited to Elite difficulty content. This way if you want to be lonewolfing in a MMO, you'll have the normal difficulty content to play. Oh wait I forgot, that might hurt the average escort Joe's ego...
I was hoping that the introduction of Warp Cores might actually bring some balance but a highly customizable boost to power levels(and in most cases to survivability) isn't going to help science vessels and cruiser to cross the line of actaully being useful. As I've been once told by a "pr0" player, "you're wasting your potential as a player in that cruiser, you should switch to an escort". Surely, I am wasting my potential but in all MMOs I've enjoyed the "support/tank" role the most. Sadly, in STO, "pew pew" is what most people enjoy.
Last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that a lot of people seem to be comparing terrible cruiser builds with above-average or even very effective escort builds. They come to the conclusion that cruisers are "Defective by Design". They're certainly not. The problem is that the niche in which a cruiser(and/or a science vessel) could thrive does not exist at the moment (well, there's HOSE... but it's definitely an overkill in terms of a "ridiculous meatbag npc design", not counting the Queen, she'd be fine if not for the fact that she seems to be choosing low-threat targets first).
As a cruiser captain by choice for two years now, Id like to comment in regard to this subject. I feel the sentiment expressed that engys and scis are uncompetitive compared to escorts is a justifiable one. However, I feel this is due pretty much exclusively on the system of reward vs dps. If im not actually playing with friends in an STF or Fleet Action etc, I'll never heal a tac/escort. Yes thats a pretty awful thing to admit that I'll hold off in my heals, but think of it from my perspective; It doesnt benefit me, long term, to heal an escort. I gain from their deaths because their time in respawn gives me that much of an edge in dps and tanking (think: Gorn Minefield). The whole system of STO revolves around dps, everything. Rewards are oftentimes respective of your damage. I also dont use threat gen either, again little to no benefit to me. I dont see why I should take the pounding for tacs, only for them to gloat about how much damage they did. Im sure that sounds resentful, I apologise for that.
Nevermind the tractor repulsers you used as a sci that saved cure space elite = Doesnt matter, not factored.
Nevermind the torrent of abuse your ship takes via threat = doesnt matter, not factored.
At the end of the day, all what ultimately matters is the damage you can do.
Instead of nerfing escorts, lets advocate a change in how the game recognises success. DPS isnt everything, this should also be reflected in the number of times an escort blows up. Give them the incentive not to die. Die = less reward.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Lag Watch:
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Anniversary Event: Severe
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I have been trying to tank elite tactical cubes , and you just can not do it with an escort, even one kitted out to tank. I tried. Fleet patrol escort with Adapted Maco set and 4 armor consoles.
Just because you can not, it does not mean that it is not possible.
Also, are you complaining about escorts that are fully kitted out with best gear? Because those should be very powerful. End game gear in all games tends to make your character very powerful, as it should after all the time and effort you put it in getting it.
powerful != tank. As a damage dealer, it is your job to kill your target before it kills you. It is not your job to avoid or to tank anything. That is the role for escorts. So you equipment let you make more damage but does not allow to be more tanky.
I watched a PVP they did, and a Wells brought down a Kumari in a 1-1 fight. The catch? I attacked the Kumari, and it took a beating that would have blown up a tactical cube in an elite STF.
I dare not imagine how hard I would have failed against the Wells. The wells had a science captain, the Kumari a tactical one.
This shows clearly how less knowledge you have of the game mechanics. It is easy with a scientist to hinder an escort in such a way that this cannot win. But this advantage is gone if you play in bigger teams or against enviroment.
Back to Topic: Escorts should make high burstdamage, but for it can also take very easily damage. Nevertheless, currently her survival ability is too good.
Every ship can tank in a pve mission (elite STFs too), but not all ships are equally good.
Simply pve missions are repetitive, so you learn how to do it and after a while you stop failing...
If you think escorts are so good tanker (or at least good as much as a cruiser), ask yourself while there are a lot of tactical captain flying cruisers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
If you think escorts are so good tanker (or at least good as much as a cruiser), ask yourself while there are a lot of tactical captain flying cruisers.
That's easy: cruisers were the primary ship for TNG and TOS, and Voyager and Defiant were always stated to be non-quintessential Starfleet ships. Thus, most people who come into this game wanting the quintessential Star Trek experience automatically think they need to go for cruisers, and only realize later, if at all, the mechanics of the game that make that a sub-optimal choice. Personally, it wasn't until I was a month or so into NSTFs that I discovered chained EPtS, one of the most basic and essential tricks in the game, and it wasn't until I'd played ESTFs for some time that I became fully aware of the issues we're discussing here.
Chaining emergency power to shields has only one problem... there is an increased cooldown on them. If it was only 15 instead of 30, that would be better.
So. If you can tank an elite tactical cube for the full duration of the fight (at least 2 minutes, assuming 4 noobs ) please, post your build.
And by tanking, I mean facing the cube the whole time and shooting non stop with DHC-DC weapons. Proof me.
Also, group matches are not viable for balancing, since there are too many variables. Invalidates the argument right there. You don't blame lack of teamwork on a ship class.
As for tacticals piloting cruisers.... the recent tribble traits are tanking ones.
Since typically cruisers have too little threat generation* it makes sense to put the tactical in a cruiser, because that way he survives more. I have seen tacticals in cruisers doing pretty good damage.
But I have seen engineers in escorts. If the cruiser threat generation is not fixed, that may very well be a viable tanking style.
*Game mechanic fail, I'm not blaming the players. Cruiser ships should get at least a doubled threat generation. Escorts need to be "durable" since cruisers got a hard time generating threat.
Give Cruisers an innate ability that makes every npc in the map always target them, and I promise you all escorts will go for pure DPS.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
What's the problem with chaining EpTs ? Just pair it with another EptX power and use 2x purple dmg control doffs. There, pretty reliable to way of having 2 EpTx powers with 100% uptime and extra power to two subsystems.
But I'ts true, that on ships like Defiant you would give up Lt. eng slot. However, having shields is usually more crucial than having a hull heal as others can toss hull heals on you.
There is no problem with threat. There are embassy consoles with -threat and +threat as well as a skill to spec for. A decent cruiser with these can always have agro. These are pure PVE bonuses.
Beside, not sure why would anyone want to park and shoot their ships, as the acc overflow from borg torps does much greater crits with that. But that might explain, the sudden explosions I see when I do STF.
You can negate most enemy fire with simple EptS + Tactical Team combo.
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The trouble is, dual weapons require a forward facing. So most of the time, you have to face the enemy you shoot at , or you will be as useful as a shuttle.
You can blitz in circles around the enemy with turrets or beam arrays....but then you better go with a cruiser anyway.
A decent cruiser that is specialised for tanking is hard to find, as a lot of people want them as damage dealers.
I use 3 projectile, 1 warp core engineer and 1 damage control engineer, all purples.
I got Hazard emitters 1, transfer shield 2, ETPS 1, EPTW 1 (used to be another EPTS), Auxiliary to structural 1 (for damage resistance debuff) , and two tactical teams.
As for the ship, its a Fleet Patrol Escort with 4 hull armor consoles, and the Adapted Maco set. I used a Field Emitter and a -threat console, but I swapped the latter out for the zero point conduit because I was still always gerenating the most threat.
I got subspace device in a device slot for extra tanking.
I run with 125 weapons and 75 shield power. Weapons are 3 dhc, 1 romulan torpedo, 2 turrets and 1 cutting beam.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
The trouble is, dual weapons require a forward facing. So most of the time, you have to face the enemy you shoot at , or you will be as useful as a shuttle.
You can blitz in circles around the enemy with turrets or beam arrays....but then you better go with a cruiser anyway.
A decent cruiser that is specialised for tanking is hard to find, as a lot of people want them as damage dealers.
I use 3 projectile, 1 warp core engineer and 1 damage control engineer, all purples.
I got Hazard emitters 1, transfer shield 2, ETPS 1, EPTW 1 (used to be another EPTS), Auxiliary to structural 1 (for damage resistance debuff) , and two tactical teams.
As for the ship, its a Fleet Patrol Escort with 4 hull armor consoles, and the Adapted Maco set. I used a Field Emitter and a -threat console, but I swapped the latter out for the zero point conduit because I was still always gerenating the most threat.
I got subspace device in a device slot for extra tanking.
I run with 125 weapons and 75 shield power. Weapons are 3 dhc, 1 romulan torpedo, 2 turrets and 1 cutting beam.
I just to just sit nose against the Cube (or Gate's) hull and blast away until it was dead, only if I messed up would I have to fall back to heal. As long as you keep moving whilst nosing against the Cube you'll maintain some defence so won't take a one shot, just watch out for the tachyon beam: that close in there's a lot of spam on screen and the tachyon beam is one of the first things to not render so you have to keep a close eye on the shield display to see if you're being drained or not as the auto fired 50k+ torpedoes hurt when you have no shields.
I just to just sit nose against the Cube (or Gate's) hull and blast away until it was dead, only if I messed up would I have to fall back to heal. As long as you keep moving whilst nosing against the Cube you'll maintain some defence so won't take a one shot, just watch out for the tachyon beam: that close in there's a lot of spam on screen and the tachyon beam is one of the first things to not render so you have to keep a close eye on the shield display to see if you're being drained or not as the auto fired 50k+ torpedoes hurt when you have no shields.
Thanks, I try to do that. Luckily my old rig can still render the blue shield drain beam. I usually also pop the Adapted maco's ask energy field ability right before doing an alpha strike on any boss.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Yes they require forward facing, but when you are under fire noone says you must "tank" it through. Dead escort does no dps. And in your build, you should have no trouble surviving long enough to get past 10km so the cube switches target to someone else and then make a loop with guns blazing. Yes, you will loose few seconds of dpsing, on the other hand, if you die, you loose much more time.
The problem is that you can actually build escort that can "tank it through", so cruiser tanks are not needed. And it's not that hard. Leadership change in S9 will affect it a little, but as main tanking potential is through shields - not hull, it won't matter much.
I specifically use +threat consoles on my steamrunner, because I know, I can tank better than most cruiser pilots I meet, with the exception of cruisers that actually manage steal my agro - good tanks. And I would prefer the STF is over asap, so I can do something more interesting.
There is no need for cruiser tanks, as the average escort surviability in PvE is pretty high.
There needs to be fundamental change in STFs so all three roles are equally needed. Right now, you just need 5 escorts with clue.
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Quoted for truth.
Most DPS nutters in pugs seem to suffer from a case of tunnel vision while they fight, I too have seen plenty of failed optionals because some guy decides to go all Kirk and either blow things up too early, or aggro's everything in the room leaving the rest of the team to clean up the mess.
Funnily enough, this is where a good tank and sci ship excel. Cleaning up the mess of trigger happy tacs.
Players aught to play the role they want to play, and the game does let them. It is other narrow minded players that seem to have the biggest problem with it.
For example, if you want your particle effects to work you gotta stack particle consoles which takes up space for shields or some other means of keeping yourself alive when everything suddenly notices you and attacks you at once (which happens all too often in these things because there are almost never any tanks). Tin foil ships are so much fun let me tell yeah. If you don't have an escort (which oddly has higher defense then even the flying-the-entire-time sci vessels) then you die alot more often then if you are just giving up and play a gimped tank build on an engineer ship captain combo.
So I'm hearing alot of (you have to only play sci 1 way or you have to only play eng 1 way or else be either too nerfed to damage or be too gimped to survive) not surprisingly from the very people who play escorts all the time and think nothings wrong.
The very reason why they allowed for more options in traits was so that we wouldn't be so stuck in these roles and be able to fly anything we want. Well it's backfired because they haven't disconnected the tactical abilities from everyone else's powers they've gone thru and nerfed entirely too much thus forcing the rest of us back into the roles they were trying to free us from in the first place.
Add to that the escorts having entirely too much defense, unbuffed cannons overpowering beams easily, and the regen of both shield and hull being as high on escorts with any captain as with an engineer captain for hull or sci captain for shields means that basically it's imbalanced. I'm sorry people don't believe it because they are using the gimped roles which are niche roles.
The other thing that i noticed is this seems to be the same exact thing I've seen in other game titles where there's a niche role and build system that people often use in pve and pvp and so since these niche roles work everyone who uses these niche roles keep parroting that the game is perfectly fine. That's not the case. The faster these people come out from their niche fog and realize this the faster things will be taken care of.
Wow, you actually went back and looked at some of my old posts and even took the time to take me own words out of context! Well done!
I think I've reached the internet big leagues now!
The idea behind useful but not needed is a bit hard to grasp if you're used to an absolutist point of view, as I've come to realize a lot of dedicated tanks and healers have in other games. In a way it makes sense, since in those other games they're measured purely by how well they can tank and heal. As a DPS player in most games I tend to consider DPS my main job but I also need to worry about not dying by mitigating damage and self healing, This may be why there's such a split view on it. I see tanking and healing as nice extras that if someone has a group can definitely benefit from, but you see them as something that must be required and lament the fact that groups can succeed without them.
Basically yeah, in STO pure tanks and healers (in fact the very words you took out of context regarding why I would make a healer was in relation to a PURE healer) are not needed and I think its GREAT! Yet bear in mind I do have an engi cruiser tanky and a sci in a sci vessel that does CC. Both are built as DPS ships that can perform their secondary role as well as I can make them. Admittedly I'm not a super elite pilot for those ships but I manage to hold agro while DPSing in one and drop Grav wells and Tachy beams with the other while puttign out as much dps as I can with both.
And if someone else brings a pure unkillable brick and wants to do little damage? They can, and I've yet to see anyone complain because the game is set up in such a way that content can still be done without needing all ships to be optimally set up.
As to why content that would make pure tanks and healers shine is a bad thing for STO, well, that should be pretty obvious don't you think? It promote a type of gameplay that is at odds with the very notion of space combat. I can maybe see support NPC ships that only do CC but for players? No, it wouldn;t amke any sense at all.
And there are your true colors. You actually do realize that non-DPS roles are at a severe disadvantage in this game, but since you always primarily play as DPS that benefits you, and so you have no problem with it. The fact that other people might prefer other roles, or even prefer being able to switch around, doesn't concern you at all. You would be perfectly happy if they removed cruisers and sci ships from the game and made the new trinity Fleet Defiant, Fleet Advanced Escort, and Steamrunner (which it almost is now). The rest of us don't agree, we'd actually like to have some significant variety (not just DPS, DPS with a GW, and DPS with an Extend Shields) and some point to it, rather than having it as the major downgrade it is now.
Exactly. I'm tired of the niche builds and pidgeonholing, where is the variety? we have 30 skills usually as a sci/sci captain and half of them really don't do anything unless there's a tactical around so we waste all this time pressing buttons waiting on either our sensor analysis to proc or our dual skill beams or plasma beams (because the other ones are worthless) to proc, or by some luck of the draw some tactical to come along and pull the aggro we shouldn't have with our romulan embassy items on your ship.
OR our other option is to play an engineer tank, with beams that barely scratch the surface of shields where we spend most of our time healing ourselves or using resists. exactly where is that fun and why should those be the only choices for eng/sci captains without an escort in tow?
Yay for someone nor spending points in their reading comprehension skill!
I HAVE a tank engi cruiser as well as a Sci in sci vessel that CCs, I like having the freedom to set them up as I like. I feel that PCs being toothless tanks or wet noodle healers to be an incredibly poor way to make games, and especially ill fitting to space combat. I also hate having to depend on specialists knowing and performing their roles for teams to succeed, far better to have specialists be optional and beneficial as opposed to required. Guess what? My engi cruiser and my sci in a sci vessel never feel lacking.
Never mind that most players stay away from specialist roles like healer and tank as much as they can, making running team content an event unto itself. Its a shame the die hard players that only play tanks and healers will feel left out but there's plenty of other games that need them, I like STO the way it is and my view is just as valid. I think I'm in the majority on this one.
I know there's a LOT of players that are die hard dedicated tanks and healers in every game they play (even if they're a small fraction of the playerbase), most of them range from "annoyance" to outright hatred for the way STO does not require the trinity. I also know there are several die hard cruiser and sci vessel (in particular psycho janeway's ship) fans that feel their ships should not be relegated to having anchors around their necks (as they refer to having lessened DPS in exchange for having extra abilities, Galaxy fans are legion for example). For their sake I would gladly support some sort of ship costume system so they could have their favorite ship skins over whatever ship they feel is the uberleetest deathmachine.
At least Cryptic seems to have figured out what types of ship player's prefer and from now on we'll see ships revolving around the destroyer concept more and more.
@the1tigglet:
I read your posts and it comes across as you feeling totally underperforming. I really suggest you spend less time being upset about it and more time trying to figure out your build and playstyle. There's several guides and even a 10k Galaxy thread you can look at to get started. I was a terrible pilot myself depending on the cruiser's survivability to get me through things until i saw escorts taking more damage than I could. THis inspired me to start digging and figuring out how to really play, this knowledge has benefited me greatly regardless of which ship I'm flying because the basic principles are exactly the same.
Even though you're complaining about it now you will realize that constantly cycling through resists and self buffs/heals is part of how ALL ships get good performance.
I guess we're going to have to review what you said earlier:
So, as I said, you're primarily playing DPS with them, with the theoretical primary class capabilities being only secondary. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, the game in its current state forces you to do that if you want to contribute to the team, that's what this whole thread is complaining about. But a DPS ship with a support ability or two is not the same thing as a support ship that can put out a bit of damage as well.
I don't entirely disagree with you on that, at least as far as how much canon sense it makes. But that doesn't matter. Like it or not there are 3 different classes of ship, 3 different captain types, and 3 different sets of abilities that each lend themselves to a certain role. They should all be equally capable of getting through things, just in different ways (the escorts/tacs simply killing things, the scis debuffing or immobilizing enemies to the point that they can handle them readily, and the cruisers/engs simply being invulnerable and wearing enemies down).
I don't think anyone here wants to make content that can only be completed with all classes working together, STO's queue system would make that a disaster no matter what. But content in which having all of the different classes actually benefits the team should exist, and should make up the bulk of the content in the game. It will probably require a rebalance of a lot of abilities, making low level tanking abilities less effective and higher level ones more effective, modifying or eliminating speed based defense bonuses (and if anything in this game is stupid in terms of canon, that's it), and buffing most of the sci abilities to levels where they're really able to do their job in a substantive and long term way. Then eliminate the one-shots and boost normal damage levels and/or fire rates to compensate so that it's possible to tank successfully but only if a ship is built to be good at it, and make sure the NPCs don't have such high resistances to powers that they're totally ineffective (currently an issue for all power and shield drains, as well as CC and stun against the larger enemies). It would probably also require eliminating the time based optionals, which reward DPS exclusively. With those changes it should be completely possible for a team of 5 escorts to blast their way through the content, they'd die occasionally but get through it no problem. The difference is that a team of 5 sci ships could get through the content with no less trouble, they'd be somewhat slower due to lacking DPS, but they'd debuff and CC the enemies well enough to get through. Similarly, 5 cruisers could also do it, they'd probably be the slowest but also the ones that would never die throughout. And the ideal team would be one with some combination of the 3, with the cruisers taking the hits for everyone else and/or healing them when necessary, and the sci ships weakening enemies for the escorts to destroy. That's not to say that it's not currently possible to do the content with any of those combinations, it's just that some have a much more difficult time than others, and they shouldn't.
Imagine engineers getting +% damage done for every enemy attacking them over a minimum of 5.
Science abilties could have something too. +% damage done if you heal a friendly player.
Or targets that are effected by science abilities simple take more damage.
Like the above poster mentioned, it'd go a long way if npc's weren't so resistant to science abilities as well.
The content currently favours dps above everything. The bonus objectives in every stf don't help in that regard either.
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
TBH I'd like to see debuffs rather than damage buffs, that way they can be tuned for everyone instead of being artificially limited due to the effect of Tactical buffs (and people can stop blaming Tac's for all their problems then). It'd also fit with the role of a Science ship or Cruiser in that they're still supporting the rest of the group much like a Science officer can currently with Sensor Scan or a Tac with FoMM/ APBeta/ APDelta.
It won't help those that want to be number one damage dealer but it'd be a lot more effective as it'd increase everyone's effective damage.
ETA: I was thinking of the lesser used offensive abilities like Aceton Beam as candidates for a DR debuff rather than the defensive buffs.
Again... if you don't want to tank, then do not pay a tank.
But in an elite STF, cruisers and science ships can be useful.
Cruisers can take agro from bosses and tank them, allowing the tacticals to concentrate on dealing damage.
Science ships ? They can debuff, but the best thing about them is gravity well.
A noob did not know the 10% rule in ISE, or let a probe slip trough in KSE ?
Gravity well, allowing for the good players to catch and correct the mistake.
I don't have an issue with either Cruisers or Science ships in STFs, but Aceton Beam is one of those abilities that may as well not be there. It does a decent job of dealing with energy damage but even an Escort can deal with that from an NPC, it's the kinetic damage from torpedoes that hurts and it does nothing for those.
Cruisers can make themselves useful just by carrying a single copy of EWP but it's rare I see a Cruiser laying plasma, which is a shame as it's a nice DoT and does a nice job of bunching Sphere's to be destroyed ( a nice line of Plasma across the path will get them all). On the other hand it just makes TBR even more annoying than usual when some tool scatters the Spheres that are patiently waiting to die in a plasma bath.
The problem with eject warp plasma is that it spawns after you like a mine. Cruisers are slow and hard to manoever, so it does not fit well with them.
The NPCs all follow the same path every time, I've never had an issue getting them in EWP, and I'm using a Regent with no turn rate buffs or RCS consoles. If there's someone in game that can't manage to lay EWP across a predetermined path then they have bigger problems than how much their Cruiser sucks, mostly because the problem's the other side of the monitor.
You got me there. Though non determined paths are harder.
Take off pvp? Im a roleplayer and even I think thats an extremely terrible idea. And howis pve ruined exactly, you can finish every objective with any combinations of career ship combination of appropriate level, its not like you HAVE to finish everything in 4 minutes or less right.
I think the solution is to disintenivize dying a lot (which i observe even in speedrunning 5 tac teams) maybe a longer initial respawn? Make injuroes start at the major level? Havea
repair minigame? Feedback on how, uch you are dying? A, modifierto
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
I understand your first part. All the people seem to whine so much because their rainbow beam boats get beaten up there that its beyond annoying, and I don't want my stuff nerfed due to their noobness.
As for the second part... is that even English? From what I see I think you mean people should die more in STFs? I am sorry if I decrypted it wrong, but that is a mess of miss-types and the grammar is not exactly super either.
Bad idea, noobs die too much already.
Hang on a minute, I happen to fly a tac/scort (a pretty damn good one at that) from time to time and I think they are too powerful, they can tank too well and anyone who disagrees with that statement needs to learn to play (I don't like saying it but the truth hurts). You know whats going to happen with these traits right? All the Tac/scort players with a functioning brain are going to grab the tanky ones because they don't need the extra damage output straight up cos they'll have more life meaning more damage before death meaning more DPS.
It also happens that I know some of the cruiser pilots who complain about escorts in game and some are damned good players.
I have been trying to tank elite tactical cubes , and you just can not do it with an escort, even one kitted out to tank. I tried. Fleet patrol escort with Adapted Maco set and 4 armor consoles.
Also, are you complaining about escorts that are fully kitted out with best gear? Because those should be very powerful. End game gear in all games tends to make your character very powerful, as it should after all the time and effort you put it in getting it.
As for the latter part.... either your definition of "damned good" means that they know which end of the ship is fore or aft, or that they get too butthurt over the fact they don't win all PVP matches they enter. So they are propably very far from any version of "good" in my book.
I always tell of these threads to my guild mates, who laugh at people whining about cruisers and science vessels not being good enough, while escorts being OP. That whole thing is just a lie preparated by bad players I'm afraid, who want an invincible ship that kills everything in 10 kilometers around it.
I watched a PVP they did, and a Wells brought down a Kumari in a 1-1 fight. The catch? I attacked the Kumari, and it took a beating that would have blown up a tactical cube in an elite STF.
I dare not imagine how hard I would have failed against the Wells. The wells had a science captain, the Kumari a tactical one.
The catch? Its a role play guild, not a heavy PVE or PVP one.
Though some of them do get tips from a very good PVE guild... Risa squadron perhaps? Something with Risa in it, I'm sure of it.
Maybe you should try asking them for a better build. This is a good advice. Take it.
There are some quite deadly cruisers out there, and they are nigh invincible. With a little bit of research yours can be one too.
Derp, even I can try to show a good cruiser build.
Why would I want to seek out a built that is inferior to my own?
MY Tac/scort will sail through a Tac cube on elite on a standard day, it's only a bad day when I take a one shot and die, my eng/cruiser (beamboat) puts out around 5k DPS over an STF (maybe you should see it before telling me how fail it is) and my Sci ship... well that's a work in progress waiting for PvP bootcamp to restart.
The last time i was on Tribble you could actually take ALL space traits at once and still have one free slot for a racial/ground trait and guess what, tacs are getting tankier (-acc proc on all weapons, possibly stackable from more than one player, what was the person who made it up thinking?).
When I read this topic (or any other concerning the fact that the Engineer class has become practically useless and Science Captain's last hope is in SubNuke in pvp...) one question bothers me - who do so many people (most likely using tac/escorts) resent the idea that future end game content may require teamwork? This game's a MMO, you're supposed to interact with other players to achieve some ingame goals.
What concerns me even more about the community is the fact that most players when asked, whether they'd like the trinity model to be somewhat strengthened, reply that "we don't want to be forced into a particular role". Hmm where's the logic in that? Currently the game FORCES the player to fulfill the damage dealer role. You can choose to mix it with another role(like cc/healing/tanking) but you'll most likely end up with a character that is "underperforming" (from gameplay's point of view). Personally, I don't see any harm in requiring players to be better teamplayers to succeed as long as it is limited to Elite difficulty content. This way if you want to be lonewolfing in a MMO, you'll have the normal difficulty content to play. Oh wait I forgot, that might hurt the average escort Joe's ego...
I was hoping that the introduction of Warp Cores might actually bring some balance but a highly customizable boost to power levels(and in most cases to survivability) isn't going to help science vessels and cruiser to cross the line of actaully being useful. As I've been once told by a "pr0" player, "you're wasting your potential as a player in that cruiser, you should switch to an escort". Surely, I am wasting my potential but in all MMOs I've enjoyed the "support/tank" role the most. Sadly, in STO, "pew pew" is what most people enjoy.
Last thing I'd like to mention is the fact that a lot of people seem to be comparing terrible cruiser builds with above-average or even very effective escort builds. They come to the conclusion that cruisers are "Defective by Design". They're certainly not. The problem is that the niche in which a cruiser(and/or a science vessel) could thrive does not exist at the moment (well, there's HOSE... but it's definitely an overkill in terms of a "ridiculous meatbag npc design", not counting the Queen, she'd be fine if not for the fact that she seems to be choosing low-threat targets first).
Nevermind the tractor repulsers you used as a sci that saved cure space elite = Doesnt matter, not factored.
Nevermind the torrent of abuse your ship takes via threat = doesnt matter, not factored.
At the end of the day, all what ultimately matters is the damage you can do.
Instead of nerfing escorts, lets advocate a change in how the game recognises success. DPS isnt everything, this should also be reflected in the number of times an escort blows up. Give them the incentive not to die. Die = less reward.
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Just because you can not, it does not mean that it is not possible.
powerful != tank. As a damage dealer, it is your job to kill your target before it kills you. It is not your job to avoid or to tank anything. That is the role for escorts. So you equipment let you make more damage but does not allow to be more tanky.
This shows clearly how less knowledge you have of the game mechanics. It is easy with a scientist to hinder an escort in such a way that this cannot win. But this advantage is gone if you play in bigger teams or against enviroment.
Back to Topic: Escorts should make high burstdamage, but for it can also take very easily damage. Nevertheless, currently her survival ability is too good.
Simply pve missions are repetitive, so you learn how to do it and after a while you stop failing...
If you think escorts are so good tanker (or at least good as much as a cruiser), ask yourself while there are a lot of tactical captain flying cruisers.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
That's easy: cruisers were the primary ship for TNG and TOS, and Voyager and Defiant were always stated to be non-quintessential Starfleet ships. Thus, most people who come into this game wanting the quintessential Star Trek experience automatically think they need to go for cruisers, and only realize later, if at all, the mechanics of the game that make that a sub-optimal choice. Personally, it wasn't until I was a month or so into NSTFs that I discovered chained EPtS, one of the most basic and essential tricks in the game, and it wasn't until I'd played ESTFs for some time that I became fully aware of the issues we're discussing here.
So. If you can tank an elite tactical cube for the full duration of the fight (at least 2 minutes, assuming 4 noobs ) please, post your build.
And by tanking, I mean facing the cube the whole time and shooting non stop with DHC-DC weapons. Proof me.
Also, group matches are not viable for balancing, since there are too many variables. Invalidates the argument right there. You don't blame lack of teamwork on a ship class.
As for tacticals piloting cruisers.... the recent tribble traits are tanking ones.
Since typically cruisers have too little threat generation* it makes sense to put the tactical in a cruiser, because that way he survives more. I have seen tacticals in cruisers doing pretty good damage.
But I have seen engineers in escorts. If the cruiser threat generation is not fixed, that may very well be a viable tanking style.
*Game mechanic fail, I'm not blaming the players. Cruiser ships should get at least a doubled threat generation. Escorts need to be "durable" since cruisers got a hard time generating threat.
Give Cruisers an innate ability that makes every npc in the map always target them, and I promise you all escorts will go for pure DPS.
But I'ts true, that on ships like Defiant you would give up Lt. eng slot. However, having shields is usually more crucial than having a hull heal as others can toss hull heals on you.
There is no problem with threat. There are embassy consoles with -threat and +threat as well as a skill to spec for. A decent cruiser with these can always have agro. These are pure PVE bonuses.
Beside, not sure why would anyone want to park and shoot their ships, as the acc overflow from borg torps does much greater crits with that. But that might explain, the sudden explosions I see when I do STF.
You can negate most enemy fire with simple EptS + Tactical Team combo.
You can blitz in circles around the enemy with turrets or beam arrays....but then you better go with a cruiser anyway.
A decent cruiser that is specialised for tanking is hard to find, as a lot of people want them as damage dealers.
I use 3 projectile, 1 warp core engineer and 1 damage control engineer, all purples.
I got Hazard emitters 1, transfer shield 2, ETPS 1, EPTW 1 (used to be another EPTS), Auxiliary to structural 1 (for damage resistance debuff) , and two tactical teams.
As for the ship, its a Fleet Patrol Escort with 4 hull armor consoles, and the Adapted Maco set. I used a Field Emitter and a -threat console, but I swapped the latter out for the zero point conduit because I was still always gerenating the most threat.
I got subspace device in a device slot for extra tanking.
I run with 125 weapons and 75 shield power. Weapons are 3 dhc, 1 romulan torpedo, 2 turrets and 1 cutting beam.
I just to just sit nose against the Cube (or Gate's) hull and blast away until it was dead, only if I messed up would I have to fall back to heal. As long as you keep moving whilst nosing against the Cube you'll maintain some defence so won't take a one shot, just watch out for the tachyon beam: that close in there's a lot of spam on screen and the tachyon beam is one of the first things to not render so you have to keep a close eye on the shield display to see if you're being drained or not as the auto fired 50k+ torpedoes hurt when you have no shields.
Thanks, I try to do that. Luckily my old rig can still render the blue shield drain beam. I usually also pop the Adapted maco's ask energy field ability right before doing an alpha strike on any boss.
The problem is that you can actually build escort that can "tank it through", so cruiser tanks are not needed. And it's not that hard. Leadership change in S9 will affect it a little, but as main tanking potential is through shields - not hull, it won't matter much.
I specifically use +threat consoles on my steamrunner, because I know, I can tank better than most cruiser pilots I meet, with the exception of cruisers that actually manage steal my agro - good tanks. And I would prefer the STF is over asap, so I can do something more interesting.
There is no need for cruiser tanks, as the average escort surviability in PvE is pretty high.
There needs to be fundamental change in STFs so all three roles are equally needed. Right now, you just need 5 escorts with clue.