Nothing more can be said about these videos. It speak for itself. Well can we blame them its all cryptic doing for making content that a more Cratering to more fast combat. They just broken their own game.
I like the way the game has evolved, I find it a lot more fun than before. The less dependency on rigid roles the better!
My Tacsort is fun
My Engi Cruiser is fun
My Sci in a Flying Lab... stays at home turning in contraband, I just can't keep up with three characters, too much grinding!
I've read this thread with great interest and I agree that the situation is currently very much biased towards DPS alone and everything else seems to take a backseat.
I don't know what else to add ATM since I see no reason to repeat what others have said...except it seems Cryptic is taking a conscious step towards giving escorts more importance that other ships in several ways.
Just look at the current types of Romulan ships* available at endgame:
4 escorts
2 cruisers (2 and 1/2 if you're generous and count the Haakona as a seperate ship)
1 science ship
I think that alone speaks volumes.
*yeah, the're all called "Warbirds" not "escorts", "cruisers" and "science ships", I know:rolleyes:
Please stop saying "Sci is useless". This is not the case at all. You just don't know how to use Sci. It has to be specced differently, played differently and is constantly being nerfed because it's too powerful.
Please, I have an Orb Weaver build that can do 10K DPS. You know what does almost 20% of the damage? Tractor Beam Repulsors and Gravity Well.
You're not sciencing at all. I can already imagine you using tholian web to trap npc groups, doing a subspace jump, grav well, faw to spam apb, dispersal mines and cluster, repulsors and iso charge etc... You are dpsing all day.
And I say my Orb Weaver build only uses one tac spot and does none of that.
Considering both my years of experience playing Sci as my primary AND the length of time I've spent on the forums gaining knowledge of Sci abilities, I'll choose to ignore the insult and instead address the remainder of the post.
Unless you missed it, NPC's can use EPtE2 now. There are numerous posts and threads pertaining to this fact, therefore I am afraid that your Gravity Well isn't doing quite what you would like to think it is. Though GW hasn't been nerfed as such, the NPC's receiving the EPtE buff has rendered it almost useless.
Point of fact - my Fleet Rhode Island can utilise GWIII and I have a MkXII Embassy console to boost this. It still does NOTHING. As I noted in my earlier post, I played ISE earlier - the only way that I could make GWIII effective was to either sub-system target sphere engines, subnuc them or hope that my aft Temporal Disruption Device scored a hit. I repeat, GWIII does NOTHING on it's own now - the NPC's simply throw EPtE and completely ignore it.
I might be wrong, but while I saw a few Spheres in IS use EPtE2 to escape a GWIII, those same spheres got caught up in that Romulan Singularity power... black hole... whatever. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I do remember seeing it launched and every nearby Borg got sucked in and became fodder for TS and CSV users.
Many people in this thread have made very good points. I have played STO for around 1.5 years now. My first character was an engineer (probably just because it was the default or top selection at the time). I have made 14 more characters since that time, but the engineer is still the only character I play content on regularly. (The other 14 are primarily just doff'ers and diliuthium refiners). I have never had a problem getting dps output from my engineer when needed, although admittedly no engineer can really compare to the d.p.s. output of a tactical with several +damage% procs running. I have never had a problem doing enough damage to get through the STF, romulan, nukara and episode content easily. With that said... my passion is for P.V.P. arenas... and this is an area where I really do see opportunity for improvements in the engineer/science roles.
It's not very difficult to make an engineer build that is practically invincible in pvp. The same could be said for science captains. S.T.O. has created a large number of self-healing mechanics, and has supported "tanking" in many ways. With that said... tanking in P.V.E. is almost pointless. As others have mentioned, escorts can tank most p.v.e. encounters without difficulty. With this dynamic, I would assume then that S.T.O. would develop this tanking paradigm with the intent of combining the tank and healer roles into 1, which I thought was a brilliant idea. If tanks can effectively heal party members who take damage and help keep the team alive, they suddenly become useful again in p.v.e.
Unfortunately, S.T.O. has not made team healing skills and systems very robust, and so it has left somewhat of a void; wherein it is possible to make a tank/healer... but there is no real purpose for them in-game. There is a vacuum where these roles are needed (p.v.p. arenas specifically and potentially other areas), but because the benefits of choosing such a role are minimal comparatively, few people choose to explore that path.
I know that the vesta ship set was created with these kinds of concerns in mind, and I must admit I do enjoy it... however I don't think the mechanics of the console/set abilities match the descriptions. For example, I died at least 3 times yesterday during the "immunity-bubble" (3-console set bonus proc). The ability description said immune to all damage, damage to shields reduced by 100%, ..." and yet somehow on multiple occasions I was killed with full shields on all sides (presumably bleedthrough?) during the immunity proc.
I also think that team healing skills need to be re-examined. With so few healing skills that will work on a team member (as opposed to those that target-self automatically), the cool-down timers on T.S.S. and hazard emitters seem a bit long, for example.
I want to be clear... I am not asking for tanks/healers to become overpowered just because I happen to play an engineer. What I am observing is that tactical captains with the right gear and skill-set can kill an enemy at full health/shields in 1-3 seconds. If tanks and healers can't do an equivalent amount of healing with similar levels of gear, then it seems to imply an inherent imbalance to me.
Now I understand that a lot of children play MMO's, and younger folks tend to favor tactical/killing/dps roles generally. I am guessing the influence and pressure that demographic creates is what drives Cryptic/PW to focus on making that role more robust. I would like to kindly offer the observation that although a large portion of the player-base may be younger and more "trigger happy"... it's the adults with jobs (and presumably more patience for healing/tank roles) buying the zen.
Actually what I read is that the content is forcing people to require a higher dps on their ships and that the roles not longer matter.
I have to agree completely.
What he's not saying is that these roles can't happen, but that they aren't needed in the kind of content that we're seeing in this game notably end game.
How many Borg STFs including the elite ones have you personally seen where a tank or healer or debuffer was actually necessary? 0
I see that every day, 4 escorts and 1 science ship and the science ship is doing just as much DPS as all the escorts and all the escorts are healing themselves without an issue and preventing damage without blinking.
That's what I'm seeing everyday. OP is absolutely right. And when people stop wanting to hold onto escorts being the most powerful ship in the game and actually admit to the reality of the situation, that's when changes will come but so far I keep seeing misdirection arguments over this.
The real issue is game balance, can a Sci or Cruiser be effective, Yes they can and therefore there is still a reason to play them. If you enjoy it that's a reason right there.
The game balance issues as i see them are that rewards are based on first past the post system, not with STFs but in general Gorn Mine field, crystalline entity, Kerrat etc (in no particular order the requirements to get the first post Higher mark PURPLE):
1/ Special tag.
Virtually all Escorts get to it quicker, they tag more. Some Sci can move as quickly to maybe get an edge in but again it goes toward a more dps escort build.... Some more nippy cruisers like maybe the Excelsior or Fleet Hvy Cruiser, Ambassador might move around quick enough.
2/ Number of enemies killed/amount of damage done again Escorts.
So by my count that's 2 out of 2 for Escorts.
As a simple question which matters more in-game:
Many Sci get +15 Aux, Escorts get +15 Wpn. Not sure any cruiser gets a total +15 in any stat.
To have a more balanced playing environment, I'd like to suggest the following ideas:
I personally think an easy fix in-game is switch the DPS of DHC with DB, and other cannon with Beam.
HOWEVER I think it right that the CRTD severity bonus on DHC is kept and not given to Beams.
I think balancing it out like this would make a more balanced game, and get back to exploring ship builds.
A bad cruiser/sci build flat-lines every time. A bad escort build can still end up on top. There is too much bonus to speed and firepower with game rewards.
Therefore Sci and Cruisers would like to feel there is a more balanced playing field.
If changing ships/weapon effect isn't going to happen then what about as follows:
How different would it be if the scoring matrix actually started to count as negatives the number of times a ship blew up.
Without this the you can tank arguments from pro escort lobby don't really mean much. You can tank better than an escort, not always but generally a decent Sci/Cruiser build should. How does that help me get the 1st place Purple shiny??? Until it does that's a null and void argument IMO and escort players are missing the point and why Sci and Cruiser Captains are frustrated.
Tanking does not win you the missions and the best gear. Exotic DOT effects do not win the missions. Blowing the mofos away pure and simple as quickly as possible however does.
The real issue is game balance, can a Sci or Cruiser be effective, Yes they can and therefore there is still a reason to play them. If you enjoy it that's a reason right there.
The game balance issues as i see them are that rewards are based on first past the post system, not with STFs but in general Gorn Mine field, crystalline entity, Kerrat etc (in no particular order the requirements to get the first post Higher mark PURPLE):
1/ Special tag.
Virtually all Escorts get to it quicker, they tag more. Some Sci can move as quickly to maybe get an edge in but again it goes toward a more dps escort build.... Some more nippy cruisers like maybe the Excelsior or Fleet Hvy Cruiser, Ambassador might move around quick enough.
2/ Number of enemies killed/amount of damage done again Escorts.
So by my count that's 2 out of 2 for Escorts.
As a simple question which matters more in-game:
Many Sci get +15 Aux, Escorts get +15 Wpn. Not sure any cruiser gets a total +15 in any stat.
To have a more balanced playing environment, I'd like to suggest the following ideas:
I personally think an easy fix in-game is switch the DPS of DHC with DB, and other cannon with Beam.
HOWEVER I think it right that the CRTD severity bonus on DHC is kept and not given to Beams.
I think balancing it out like this would make a more balanced game, and get back to exploring ship builds.
A bad cruiser/sci build flat-lines every time. A bad escort build can still end up on top. There is too much bonus to speed and firepower with game rewards.
Therefore Sci and Cruisers would like to feel there is a more balanced playing field.
If changing ships/weapon effect isn't going to happen then what about as follows:
How different would it be if the scoring matrix actually started to count as negatives the number of times a ship blew up.
Without this the you can tank arguments from pro escort lobby don't really mean much. You can tank better than an escort, not always but generally a decent Sci/Cruiser build should. How does that help me get the 1st place Purple shiny??? Until it does that's a null and void argument IMO and escort players are missing the point and why Sci and Cruiser Captains are frustrated.
Tanking does not win you the missions and the best gear. Exotic DOT effects do not win the missions. Blowing the mofos away pure and simple as quickly as possible however does.
Your fix hurts the Battllecruisers that with minor tweaking, can achieve appreciable turn rates, so the swapping of DHC/DB damage would indirectly hurt them. They have the speed of a cruiser and excel at using the forward facing weapons w/ turrets (to maximize damage when firing the DHC).
If I wanted to make Beamboat Build #5,012, then I would have rolled Fed and not KDF.
What they could do, instead of swapping damage values and TRIBBLE over an entire class of ships (Batllecruisers), just bump up beam damage.
Besides, with your fix, you'd just see Escorts sporting Beamboat builds and still being almost impossible to kill and still able to put out more damage (higher weapon power setting + fewer weapons to cause weapon drain and thus lower damage).
Definatly getting engi and sci usefull roles in stf's is needed. I believe the engi should be the one to do healing in space combat, you dont call a medic to come fix your shields you call an engineer. Bones was never called to fix the warp core and get warp online or more power, that was Scotty. Wih that being said team heals really need a revamp, 1 for yourself and friendly, 1 to target friendly only, 1 for the whole team. Make multiple versions of these like 1 that does hull healing and 1 that does shields and 1 that does both but in smaller amounts.
Sci could lose healing abilities and get usefull skills to confuse the enemy that can be used on the nemy itself or on a friendly. One you use on the enemy it will make them target each other for a short time and the one you use on friendly will give them a photonic group of copies of there ship minus the weapons, once used the enemy will fire on the fakes. Not taking damage is valuable. All other skill sci has are good for defuff and crowd control so I dont have much to suggest there.
To get these roles usefull is lose the DPS's leaderboard to get the purple prize, make it a team effort an everyone gets a purple. require X amount of heals, X amount of DPS's, and X amount of Sci skills used. If a teammate doesnt pull his weight then yes it should hurt the team as a whole example Escort goes AFK at the beginning and shoots nothing then purple loot should be unatainable, but 1 new to doing them is trying his/her best and puting down dps the whole time then yes purple should be attainable but considerably harder to do. no engi or sci and forget about purple team drop.
Then have an individual prize based on team score. top teammate in most points added to the score regardless of where the points were gets the chance of purple drop say 50% but guaranteed atleast blue. If the healer made more points in healing teammates than the best escort did in laying down fire then the healer should get the purple prize. everyone else green or better normal loot drop chances.
Doing both of those removes the incentive to just fly escort just to get the good loot and that is 90% of the argument! You could be the best healer or sci and get a purple and not need to be in an escort. First one makes them required for LFT, second is based on ones skill and setup.
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"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I've noticed something: as powerful and near-godly a team of all Tacs can be in space, I'm finding that Engineers and Science Captains are the go-to choices in ground combat. Into The Hive is a shining example of how damage alone is never gonna be enough, and how you'll need cover shields, the medical/shield generators, and scientists to keep you topped off/the elite tac drones disabled.
Yet the reward for Ground is just as much as Space, and is so much harder/longer than space. I think if the rewards for ground were massively increased to compensate for how much harder it is, more people might do the ground versions.
Ground does give more, just not balanced against the effort put in. And of course Sci and Eng are choice on ground, they come with HEALS, lots of them. Couple the right kit with the approriate MACO, KHG or Adapted set, and they've got a heal for self and a heal for shield at hand. Makes ground combat much more viable for them.
It's kind of odd how powerful tacs can be in space, but how weak they can be on the ground. It's the one balance that's out there. The issue? Ground is SO much harder to get into than space. I'd rather run space missions anyday than ground. Though I still love the Big Dig.
I know there is a method but all I see is madness.
Ground does give more, just not balanced against the effort put in. And of course Sci and Eng are choice on ground, they come with HEALS, lots of them. Couple the right kit with the approriate MACO, KHG or Adapted set, and they've got a heal for self and a heal for shield at hand. Makes ground combat much more viable for them.
It's kind of odd how powerful tacs can be in space, but how weak they can be on the ground. It's the one balance that's out there. The issue? Ground is SO much harder to get into than space. I'd rather run space missions anyday than ground. Though I still love the Big Dig.
Which is why Ground STFs need much better rewards. No nerfing space rewards, that's a bad idea.
Well my 2 cents worth is.......
I will never fly an escort again, tried once and hated it, and will NEVER go back!! I don't give a **** that they are the kings of the game, they suck big time as far as being TREK goes!
Sci powers need SOMETHING, a fully spec GWIII, for example, seems to have less effect than my eng spewing out warp plasma, as far as restricting the movement of NPCs goes.
BUT at the end of the day, I am going to fly what I want, when I want, and bugger the nay sayers.....if it results in the optional being missed....oh dear, how sad.....nevermind, its not my fault if the ship I choose isn't as effective as it should be( pure sci that is), its cryptics, so go ***** to them, as my chat window will be closed, so I won't here you whining!!
Balance needs to be restored....at one stage it was sci was OP...nerf, nerf, nerf.....now its tac is OP....nerf , nerf , nerf.....so lets just make cruisers OP for a while, rinse and repeat the nerf cycle, and then maybe we will get back to where we should be...
I have a Sci in a cruiser and quite frankly I seem to do a lot better than the guys in there escorts and in almost ever STF we gain the optional so whether you a eng, sci or tactical officer and no matter which type of ship you can always gain the optional
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Comments
I'm not even impressed, I know people who've soloed it with the optional, and without Plasmonic Leech. And of course, it was DPS all the way.
I like the way the game has evolved, I find it a lot more fun than before. The less dependency on rigid roles the better!
My Tacsort is fun
My Engi Cruiser is fun
My Sci in a Flying Lab... stays at home turning in contraband, I just can't keep up with three characters, too much grinding!
I don't know what else to add ATM since I see no reason to repeat what others have said...except it seems Cryptic is taking a conscious step towards giving escorts more importance that other ships in several ways.
Just look at the current types of Romulan ships* available at endgame:
4 escorts
2 cruisers (2 and 1/2 if you're generous and count the Haakona as a seperate ship)
1 science ship
I think that alone speaks volumes.
*yeah, the're all called "Warbirds" not "escorts", "cruisers" and "science ships", I know:rolleyes:
Please, I have an Orb Weaver build that can do 10K DPS. You know what does almost 20% of the damage? Tractor Beam Repulsors and Gravity Well.
And I say my Orb Weaver build only uses one tac spot and does none of that.
I might be wrong, but while I saw a few Spheres in IS use EPtE2 to escape a GWIII, those same spheres got caught up in that Romulan Singularity power... black hole... whatever. I hope I'm wrong about that, but I do remember seeing it launched and every nearby Borg got sucked in and became fodder for TS and CSV users.
It's not very difficult to make an engineer build that is practically invincible in pvp. The same could be said for science captains. S.T.O. has created a large number of self-healing mechanics, and has supported "tanking" in many ways. With that said... tanking in P.V.E. is almost pointless. As others have mentioned, escorts can tank most p.v.e. encounters without difficulty. With this dynamic, I would assume then that S.T.O. would develop this tanking paradigm with the intent of combining the tank and healer roles into 1, which I thought was a brilliant idea. If tanks can effectively heal party members who take damage and help keep the team alive, they suddenly become useful again in p.v.e.
Unfortunately, S.T.O. has not made team healing skills and systems very robust, and so it has left somewhat of a void; wherein it is possible to make a tank/healer... but there is no real purpose for them in-game. There is a vacuum where these roles are needed (p.v.p. arenas specifically and potentially other areas), but because the benefits of choosing such a role are minimal comparatively, few people choose to explore that path.
I know that the vesta ship set was created with these kinds of concerns in mind, and I must admit I do enjoy it... however I don't think the mechanics of the console/set abilities match the descriptions. For example, I died at least 3 times yesterday during the "immunity-bubble" (3-console set bonus proc). The ability description said immune to all damage, damage to shields reduced by 100%, ..." and yet somehow on multiple occasions I was killed with full shields on all sides (presumably bleedthrough?) during the immunity proc.
I also think that team healing skills need to be re-examined. With so few healing skills that will work on a team member (as opposed to those that target-self automatically), the cool-down timers on T.S.S. and hazard emitters seem a bit long, for example.
I want to be clear... I am not asking for tanks/healers to become overpowered just because I happen to play an engineer. What I am observing is that tactical captains with the right gear and skill-set can kill an enemy at full health/shields in 1-3 seconds. If tanks and healers can't do an equivalent amount of healing with similar levels of gear, then it seems to imply an inherent imbalance to me.
Now I understand that a lot of children play MMO's, and younger folks tend to favor tactical/killing/dps roles generally. I am guessing the influence and pressure that demographic creates is what drives Cryptic/PW to focus on making that role more robust. I would like to kindly offer the observation that although a large portion of the player-base may be younger and more "trigger happy"... it's the adults with jobs (and presumably more patience for healing/tank roles) buying the zen.
Thanks. As always, just my 2 cents on the matter.
Q
The real issue is game balance, can a Sci or Cruiser be effective, Yes they can and therefore there is still a reason to play them. If you enjoy it that's a reason right there.
The game balance issues as i see them are that rewards are based on first past the post system, not with STFs but in general Gorn Mine field, crystalline entity, Kerrat etc (in no particular order the requirements to get the first post Higher mark PURPLE):
1/ Special tag.
Virtually all Escorts get to it quicker, they tag more. Some Sci can move as quickly to maybe get an edge in but again it goes toward a more dps escort build.... Some more nippy cruisers like maybe the Excelsior or Fleet Hvy Cruiser, Ambassador might move around quick enough.
2/ Number of enemies killed/amount of damage done again Escorts.
So by my count that's 2 out of 2 for Escorts.
As a simple question which matters more in-game:
Many Sci get +15 Aux, Escorts get +15 Wpn. Not sure any cruiser gets a total +15 in any stat.
To have a more balanced playing environment, I'd like to suggest the following ideas:
I personally think an easy fix in-game is switch the DPS of DHC with DB, and other cannon with Beam.
HOWEVER I think it right that the CRTD severity bonus on DHC is kept and not given to Beams.
I think balancing it out like this would make a more balanced game, and get back to exploring ship builds.
A bad cruiser/sci build flat-lines every time. A bad escort build can still end up on top. There is too much bonus to speed and firepower with game rewards.
Therefore Sci and Cruisers would like to feel there is a more balanced playing field.
If changing ships/weapon effect isn't going to happen then what about as follows:
How different would it be if the scoring matrix actually started to count as negatives the number of times a ship blew up.
Without this the you can tank arguments from pro escort lobby don't really mean much. You can tank better than an escort, not always but generally a decent Sci/Cruiser build should. How does that help me get the 1st place Purple shiny??? Until it does that's a null and void argument IMO and escort players are missing the point and why Sci and Cruiser Captains are frustrated.
Tanking does not win you the missions and the best gear. Exotic DOT effects do not win the missions. Blowing the mofos away pure and simple as quickly as possible however does.
If I wanted to make Beamboat Build #5,012, then I would have rolled Fed and not KDF.
What they could do, instead of swapping damage values and TRIBBLE over an entire class of ships (Batllecruisers), just bump up beam damage.
Besides, with your fix, you'd just see Escorts sporting Beamboat builds and still being almost impossible to kill and still able to put out more damage (higher weapon power setting + fewer weapons to cause weapon drain and thus lower damage).
Sci could lose healing abilities and get usefull skills to confuse the enemy that can be used on the nemy itself or on a friendly. One you use on the enemy it will make them target each other for a short time and the one you use on friendly will give them a photonic group of copies of there ship minus the weapons, once used the enemy will fire on the fakes. Not taking damage is valuable. All other skill sci has are good for defuff and crowd control so I dont have much to suggest there.
To get these roles usefull is lose the DPS's leaderboard to get the purple prize, make it a team effort an everyone gets a purple. require X amount of heals, X amount of DPS's, and X amount of Sci skills used. If a teammate doesnt pull his weight then yes it should hurt the team as a whole example Escort goes AFK at the beginning and shoots nothing then purple loot should be unatainable, but 1 new to doing them is trying his/her best and puting down dps the whole time then yes purple should be attainable but considerably harder to do. no engi or sci and forget about purple team drop.
Then have an individual prize based on team score. top teammate in most points added to the score regardless of where the points were gets the chance of purple drop say 50% but guaranteed atleast blue. If the healer made more points in healing teammates than the best escort did in laying down fire then the healer should get the purple prize. everyone else green or better normal loot drop chances.
Doing both of those removes the incentive to just fly escort just to get the good loot and that is 90% of the argument! You could be the best healer or sci and get a purple and not need to be in an escort. First one makes them required for LFT, second is based on ones skill and setup.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Yet the reward for Ground is just as much as Space, and is so much harder/longer than space. I think if the rewards for ground were massively increased to compensate for how much harder it is, more people might do the ground versions.
It's kind of odd how powerful tacs can be in space, but how weak they can be on the ground. It's the one balance that's out there. The issue? Ground is SO much harder to get into than space. I'd rather run space missions anyday than ground. Though I still love the Big Dig.
Which is why Ground STFs need much better rewards. No nerfing space rewards, that's a bad idea.
I will never fly an escort again, tried once and hated it, and will NEVER go back!! I don't give a **** that they are the kings of the game, they suck big time as far as being TREK goes!
Sci powers need SOMETHING, a fully spec GWIII, for example, seems to have less effect than my eng spewing out warp plasma, as far as restricting the movement of NPCs goes.
BUT at the end of the day, I am going to fly what I want, when I want, and bugger the nay sayers.....if it results in the optional being missed....oh dear, how sad.....nevermind, its not my fault if the ship I choose isn't as effective as it should be( pure sci that is), its cryptics, so go ***** to them, as my chat window will be closed, so I won't here you whining!!
Balance needs to be restored....at one stage it was sci was OP...nerf, nerf, nerf.....now its tac is OP....nerf , nerf , nerf.....so lets just make cruisers OP for a while, rinse and repeat the nerf cycle, and then maybe we will get back to where we should be...
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]