You think making something NECESSARY is the way to FORCE variety, I think making it optional and beneficial but not necessary to better promote variety.
I put up with this forced variety in WoW, STO is different and that's one of its few non IP strenghts.
/doublefacepalm
You still don't get it. The game NOW has FORCED people into DPS as the only viable option. Why the heck do you think there's so many threads of people scrambling to twist their tanky cruisers into 10k+ dps (I assure you they aint tanking @ that dps) and there are virtually no science ships doing science in this game?
They forced this on players by literally reducing the tank and science ability to near uselessness. If a cruiser could tank the ungodly amount of damage the borg supergun/supertorpedo BS (200k+ dmg non-heavy torp, non-crit hit..it hits you and you die even with the absolute best resists/shield&hullHP)...if a science ship could still debuff an enemy ship in a way that the science ship can then bring it down with its meager weaponry (as in pre-f2p) ... THEN there would be OPTIONS with people STILL having the CHOICE of being an escort to do DPS.
But that CHOICE was removed. Completely. You can only DPS. Its the only thing that counts, that matters and that works.
As I said before... in pre-f2p the ships and their roles were BALANCED. Not exclusive, not mandatory.. but balanced. If an escort faced a sphere it would gun it down. If a sci ship faced a sphere it would debuff the snot out of it and kill it. If a cruiser faced a sphere it would tank it as it held it and gun it down. If all three faced a cube the cruiser would tank it by grabbing aggro away from the escort while the sci ship debuffed it and supported the cruiser (healing) ...and the escort would add damage and focus its fire on the weakest shield and bring the target down.
...but neither of the three classes alone had anything close to an easy time bringing down the cube alone. They could but it would be hard. Three cruisers would not have the spike DPS nor the debuffing ability to kill the cube in a reasonable amount of time...they could tank it though. Three sci ship could easily debuff the cube down but it had dramatically less damage output and tanking ability than the cruiser so they too would take a long time. Three escorts would be pulling strong blows but since they could not tank the cube nor debuff it, they have to do hit and run strikes...which meant they too would take quite some time to pop the cube.
The three classes in the above example are in PARITY when it came down to effectiveness vs a target. Each simply did their 'dps' in a different way. That was balance.
Now however the only thing that works is weapon damage. The npcs have been absurdly buffed to the point where debuffs dont work and their damage output reaches idiotic levels that no cruiser no matter how well geared cannot survive the one-shot of doom attacks (borg 300k+ torpedo, non-crit, non-heavy torpedo and 40k+ dmg per hit, 8 hits per burst heavy plasma cannon...neither of these hits takes into account shield resists..they just blast them and the hull in half a second).
The only thing that works is defense tanking (only escorts can do it) and weapon-based DPS (only escorts are hardwired to excel in it).
Its not a net "DPS gain" but having a capable tank that can also do decnet cruiser DPS makes things far easier for everyone else. If having a cruiser around was an upgrade instead of a sidegrade it'd be considered mandatory, and that directly restricts people's choices. While there are some that prefer that playstyle I certainly do not, especially not in a spaceship game.
Yes it is a dps gain because the cruiser HAS to sacrifice its tank and support ability to do said DPS increase.
You do not like tanking. Fine. You belong in an escort. Thing is, you are refusing to accept that the cruiser and science players exist and that they too need to have a viable means of having fun in the game. Gun damage is not their class role, nor what the ships or capt abilities are hardwired for NOR does it make sense to have said ships and capts being forced to focus on DPS just because its the one thing that works.
You still don't get it. The game NOW has FORCED people into DPS as the only viable option. Why the heck do you think there's so many threads of people scrambling to twist their tanky cruisers into 10k+ dps (I assure you they aint tanking @ that dps) and there are virtually no science ships doing science in this game?
Maybe because a lot of people want to have more options and the 10K cruiser threads open player's eyes to what can be done? Even if they don't go for the full max dps cruiser build they will have an idea of what they could do in their own builds.
The only people "forced" to DPS are those not willing to figure out an alternative. I levelled an engi cruiser to see if there was any truth to the many, many complaint threads.Thing is, I understood what cruisers were designed to do and mixed that with all I'd learned of escorts to make the AC the tankiest it could be while doing as much DPS as it could.
Then I decided to level a Sci alt in a SCI Vessel to see what was going there. Admittedly I hardly ever play with that alt, the various grinds just discourage alts too much these days. But when I do take her out to ESTFs somehow I seem to STILL take agro from cruisers and escorts....nevermind escorts not doing enough damage, far more critical are cruiser pilots that neither take threat control nor dedicate themselves to pure DPS.
Folks really need to realize what their ships are actually built to do and then decide if that's the ship for them. Too many players want to do lots of damage.... and then fly cruisers and sci vessels, when those ships do less damage by design but supplement their performance with other group benefits. I'm not saying cruisers and some sci vessels aren't in need of at least a few tweaks (primarily a turniing buff for cruisers) but they are not "useless" by any means. Players simply have the wrong expectations.
They forced this on players by literally reducing the tank and science ability to near uselessness. If a cruiser could tank the ungodly amount of damage the borg supergun/supertorpedo BS (200k+ dmg non-heavy torp, non-crit hit..it hits you and you die even with the absolute best resists/shield&hullHP)...if a science ship could still debuff an enemy ship in a way that the science ship can then bring it down with its meager weaponry (as in pre-f2p) ... THEN there would be OPTIONS with people STILL having the CHOICE of being an escort to do DPS.
I've had my cruiser die to single shots as many times as anyone, but I just fly back in and grab agro right away again. Far better for my cruiser to be out a few moments than for all the escorts to be out over and over again. Like I said, sci is not an area I'd call myself an expert with, but my grav wells do a great job of making Sphere groups into a nice compact mass for everyone to do their AOEs or pull a win form the jaws of defeat from someone not abiding by the 10% rule.
But that CHOICE was removed. Completely. You can only DPS. Its the only thing that counts, that matters and that works.
As I said before... in pre-f2p the ships and their roles were BALANCED. Not exclusive, not mandatory.. but balanced. If an escort faced a sphere it would gun it down. If a sci ship faced a sphere it would debuff the snot out of it and kill it. If a cruiser faced a sphere it would tank it as it held it and gun it down. If all three faced a cube the cruiser would tank it by grabbing aggro away from the escort while the sci ship debuffed it and supported the cruiser (healing) ...and the escort would add damage and focus its fire on the weakest shield and bring the target down.
...but neither of the three classes alone had anything close to an easy time bringing down the cube alone. They could but it would be hard. Three cruisers would not have the spike DPS nor the debuffing ability to kill the cube in a reasonable amount of time...they could tank it though. Three sci ship could easily debuff the cube down but it had dramatically less damage output and tanking ability than the cruiser so they too would take a long time. Three escorts would be pulling strong blows but since they could not tank the cube nor debuff it, they have to do hit and run strikes...which meant they too would take quite some time to pop the cube.
The three classes in the above example are in PARITY when it came down to effectiveness vs a target. Each simply did their 'dps' in a different way. That was balance.
Now however the only thing that works is weapon damage. The npcs have been absurdly buffed to the point where debuffs dont work and their damage output reaches idiotic levels that no cruiser no matter how well geared cannot survive the one-shot of doom attacks (borg 300k+ torpedo, non-crit, non-heavy torpedo and 40k+ dmg per hit, 8 hits per burst heavy plasma cannon...neither of these hits takes into account shield resists..they just blast them and the hull in half a second).
The only thing that works is defense tanking (only escorts can do it) and weapon-based DPS (only escorts are hardwired to excel in it).
There's a lot of rose colored glasses wearing going on, and I do not agree that only escorts benefit from defense tanking. While I cannot speak for anyone else, my engi cruiser NEVER stops moving. So escorts get an extra 10%.... yeah, that really makes a HUGE difference over all my other built in tanking abilities.
Yes it is a dps gain because the cruiser HAS to sacrifice its tank and support ability to do said DPS increase.
That's the pilot's CHOICE. They have a tanky ship that they can CHOOSE to DPS with. How is players having the option NOT beneficial for everyone? And if they wanted a cruiser that asked for less sacrifice to do damage the KDF is always looking for fresh recruits.
You do not like tanking. Fine. You belong in an escort. Thing is, you are refusing to accept that the cruiser and science players exist and that they too need to have a viable means of having fun in the game. Gun damage is not their class role, nor what the ships or capt abilities are hardwired for NOR does it make sense to have said ships and capts being forced to focus on DPS just because its the one thing that works.
You're angry and exasperated. I get it, a lot of folks are. But you see, I DO have an engi cruiser tank and a sci vessel alts. If you're asking for sci ships to have exceedingly damaging grav wells....that's a little silly isn't it? Its pretty clear that sci vessels are for control, not DPS. And yet people manage to do enough DPS to not be useless by combining their "nerfed" debuffs/grav wells with weapon fire. Just because Janeway used technobabble to win battles does not mean that's the way a sci vessel should work, it merely shows what poor writing took place in Voyager. My cruiser tank holds agro and does decent damage, even if I do get popped now and then by those one shot invisitorps. But I understand that those one shots do not negate all the tanking I do, that's something most folks don't get.
I think its because as an escort pilot I understand that sometimes you just pop and nothing can save you, no matter what you do. So if my cruiser tank gets popped by a one shot I understand that it doesn't invalidate my build, or negate all the tanking I've done so far. Why do others not see this? I can only imagine is the tank mentality from other games, where if the tank dies its a party wipe. That's not the way STO is set up, I wish players would get that.
Better yet, I wish we could make every new player read the various guides BEFORE they decide to level something that won't make them happy
Omg you are every pots lid if that makes any sense This guys is not wrong you know "see the bigger picture the player base ", but you have your intelligent answers for everything!
You say that for some escorts its normal to be able to tank like a cruiser and do huge dps with their dhc, and that cruiser need to chose one or the other mean mediocre dmg and low defence thats normal ? Why do even comment anything because everything is soo ok !?
Oooooh another big bad whine thread about bad players who can not have good builds, and are now doing the nerf cry because they want all the dps handed to them.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Eh, if only you knew what an escort can do with a lieutenant commander sci station. Or a jem hadar attack ship with the jem hadar space sets? Or the playable raider kdf ships, which aren't really escorts but do amazing damage with the right debuff sci powers.
I Know...
I have a fed sci toon on a wells and several tact toons both fed and kdf... the kdf one has a jhas...
1) having a lt cmd sci bofs is not like having several sci boffs with at least a cmd one. Think about what you can do using a couple of the same ability so that the second has a smaller CD. My sci toon can continuously turn off your systems, slow, clear buff, debuff, heal itself and also destroy your ship if you are alone... no matter if you have a JHAS. Using only a lt cmd station is not the same.
2) the jem'hadar space shield is the worst one... using engine and deflector is good (if you use polaron weapons), but that does not make you invulnerable. However actually also the kumary can have a great dps... but pvp and pve are not a matter of dps only.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
You still don't get it. The game NOW has FORCED people into DPS as the only viable option.
if so, then tell me how my sci toon on a wells build to be a pure debuffer in pvp can destroy a tactical cube "solo"... it not easy but it' is easier than using my tactical toon on escort (both fleet tactical escort retrofit or jhas).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
First of all, you cannot and do not instastop anything with GW please stop telling fibs. (or provide a video of this happening because the rest of us are not seeing that with science skills sorry) and second, control the enemy is fine so long as our skills work, and let me tell you half the time they don't because they've nerfed science skills.
Might be for you, but you didn't understand what I said. You think I said GW does the damage, but it does, by sticking the enemies together and causing warpcore explosions to deal more damage. It's not straight damage, such as somebody said that subnuc does more damage than attack pattern alpha does because it negates the resistances of enemy in pvp. It's like you were forgetting the team entirely. Also, I don't see sci skills any bad, just eguip few consoles to boost them and it's all good to go.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Might be for you, but you didn't understand what I said. You think I said GW does the damage, but it does, by sticking the enemies together and causing warpcore explosions to deal more damage. It's not straight damage, such as somebody said that subnuc does more damage than attack pattern alpha does because it negates the resistances of enemy in pvp. It's like you were forgetting the team entirely. Also, I don't see sci skills any bad, just eguip few consoles to boost them and it's all good to go.
That is part of my point, that because they've made it so that they nerfed the science skills due to the team buff abilities of the tactical that soloing science is severely nerfed and shouldn't be it's a poor balance design imo. They should have coded the tactical buffs to not mess with certain science skills instead of nerfing science skills across the board like they've done.
If you want my opinion, support ships in PvP are awesome, actually required for chance at victory. But this is a pve thread, posted in pve gameplay, please don't go off topic.
PS: The wells starship is an escort. :cool:
PSS: I actually went on stowiki.org to check on wells class stats, it's considered a sci vessels lmao. That was lulzy .
"eurialo" not "eurela"... Eurialo is the italian for Euryalus, a character of Vergil's Aeneid
2nd... Even in pve sci ships are awerson and really usefull. I do not remember how many times I saved the optional in ISE stopping spheres (think about a team with a lower dps or a noob ignoring the 10% rule). And if a sci ships can help you in pvp debuffing your opponent, them it can also help you debuffing in a pve match. Yes, I know that if you have dps you do not need sci ships in pve, but that does not mean sci ships are useless.... I think the truth is that building a sci toon/ship is harder than building a tactical toon/escort.
Moreover since we have the hyperplasma torpedo is really simple having dps (think about a train of plasma torpedo)
3th...
the wells is not an escot, not because it is classified "science vessel", but because it hasn't the turn rate of an escort and there are sci vessels with greater turn rate, it can't use DC or DHC, it has 2 universal station but still can't have a tactical cmd station, it does't have the +15 weapon's energy bonus... several differences that make the wells very different and not as good as an escort (if you want dps).
however it's also true that you can use the 2 universal station as tactical ones, but if you want higher dps you better use a real escort.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
The main imbalance is not of ship capabilities, but of learning curve.
Aggro is generally the easiest to learn. It is pretty straight forward what you should be doing at any moment in a battle.
Tanking and healing and debuffing require knowing a lot more about what is going on at any given moment. You need to take in and process far more information.
Now aggro still would benefit from all that extra information and understanding of their options, while not as necessary to them it is one of the things that will separate a good player from an amazing one.
One of the huge reasons people are seeing this imbalance is because of the learning curve. They are thinking of the game in a more narrow and aggro-centric way. Ideas such as spacing and zoning and trapping and timing are weaker concepts to them.
STO is an incredible deep and complex game, with loads of information thrown in your face and all sorts of options available to you with both immediate and subtle effects on the game.
I have been gaming in some variety or another since the 80s, and it is my experience that those who complain about balance the most are those who understand the game the least.
It isn't to say there is not imbalance, however even if there is I would still challenge people to try and think differently about the game. Why are you complaining that Escorts are doing all the killing in the mission? Isn't that their job?
This comes from someone who has run science since she started. I appreciate the added difficulty. It isn't difficulty because of imbalance, just due to a more complex role. The role of a Tank or Sci vessel is not to do damage,but to facilitate damage to be done. My Vesta can do a lot of damage; but its main goals are to heal, buff, debuff, trap, and distract. Tanks are there to draw aggro to keep the aggro alive. Sci/Healers are there to supplement the tanks ability to tank and throw a monkey wrench into the opponents mechanism of killing you.
Your impact on the battle is often very subtle. There is a lot of measure of your worth which is not based on DPS.
If your complaint is your Sci vessel cannot do enough damage, then I ask why your main goal for your sci vessel is to do damage in the first place?
I remember an epiphany I had playing Street Fighter IV a while ago. When choosing between the two Ultras available to my character, I would pick based on what suits that match more. In matches that I was picking the second Ultra I found I seldom if ever used it,so I assumed it had no impact on the match and switched back to Ultra 1. Something I found easier to land. However now I was losing these matches more.
Why?
Because just having Ultra 2 available force my opponent to play in a way that was weary of it. I wasn't using it because they were limiting their gameplay to avoid it. By using Ultra 1, I lost that subtle control.
Most of the players complaining here would have switched to Ultra 1 and not realized why they were suddenly losing. They would be on the forums complaining about game balance issues.
The main imbalance is not of ship capabilities, but of learning curve.
Aggro is generally the easiest to learn. It is pretty straight forward what you should be doing at any moment in a battle.
Tanking and healing and debuffing require knowing a lot more about what is going on at any given moment. You need to take in and process far more information.
Now aggro still would benefit from all that extra information and understanding of their options, while not as necessary to them it is one of the things that will separate a good player from an amazing one.
One of the huge reasons people are seeing this imbalance is because of the learning curve. They are thinking of the game in a more narrow and aggro-centric way. Ideas such as spacing and zoning and trapping and timing are weaker concepts to them.
STO is an incredible deep and complex game, with loads of information thrown in your face and all sorts of options available to you with both immediate and subtle effects on the game.
I have been gaming in some variety or another since the 80s, and it is my experience that those who complain about balance the most are those who understand the game the least.
It isn't to say there is not imbalance, however even if there is I would still challenge people to try and think differently about the game. Why are you complaining that Escorts are doing all the killing in the mission? Isn't that their job?
This comes from someone who has run science since she started. I appreciate the added difficulty. It isn't difficulty because of imbalance, just due to a more complex role. The role of a Tank or Sci vessel is not to do damage,but to facilitate damage to be done. My Vesta can do a lot of damage; but its main goals are to heal, buff, debuff, trap, and distract. Tanks are there to draw aggro to keep the aggro alive. Sci/Healers are there to supplement the tanks ability to tank and throw a monkey wrench into the opponents mechanism of killing you.
Your impact on the battle is often very subtle. There is a lot of measure of your worth which is not based on DPS.
If your complaint is your Sci vessel cannot do enough damage, then I ask why your main goal for your sci vessel is to do damage in the first place?
I remember an epiphany I had playing Street Fighter IV a while ago. When choosing between the two Ultras available to my character, I would pick based on what suits that match more. In matches that I was picking the second Ultra I found I seldom if ever used it,so I assumed it had no impact on the match and switched back to Ultra 1. Something I found easier to land. However now I was losing these matches more.
Why?
Because just having Ultra 2 available force my opponent to play in a way that was weary of it. I wasn't using it because they were limiting their gameplay to avoid it. By using Ultra 1, I lost that subtle control.
Most of the players complaining here would have switched to Ultra 1 and not realized why they were suddenly losing. They would be on the forums complaining about game balance issues.
I find your knowledge of STO somewhat lacking and leading you to false conclusions.
1) aggro as you call it, DPS as I call it. First off any ship currently in PvE can pull this role if utilizing the proper gimmick be it plasma beams/rom beam, rommie torp spam, or the old standby of DHC. Which is top dog I have not yet concluded but all are so off the wall powerful I don't think it matters much.
2) Tanking & healing in this game is very simple. If damage mitigated + avoided + healed > incoming = Win. Mitigate? Shield resists (EPtS+TT). Avoid? Bonus defense (Yo-Yo, APO, don't be a dink). Healed? High passive regen (leadership boff, shield power) and/or proc (Shield Distro Doff).
3) Debuffing? Impart negative resist (APB I love thee, SS, FoMM) + Accuracy Overflow (holds) = win.
4) Zone control? Really TBR is not that complicated nor hard to take.
This game is about as simple and basic as it gets. The only thing that even remotely complicated is how terribad the documentation is making game knowledge extremely valuable and hard to come by.
Really how difficult is it to mash your space bar that you keybind everything to while pointing your nose at the enemy Yo-Yoing or zooming around going weeeee in circles?
Infact I would say if anything this game is too basic, too simple. Once you have a basic understanding on how it does it's math and how to bind spacebar your done.
There is no timing required. Just build the ship half decent and spam the enemy till it explodes. No deep synergies beyond slap as many modifiers on things as you can.
I would love to see a reason beyond the lols to build a ship for hull tanking. Or shield stripping. Or shield penetrating into hull. Maybe a situation where a power drainer could shine instead of them either being pointless or insanely OP. A reason to take even half of the potential boff abilities. A reason not to just spam abilities the moment they come off cooldown. That would be fantastic. Sadly I don't PvP so I doubt I ever will.
I think you are wrong. the more I play this game, the more complicated it actually gets. Spacing and zoning is a huge part of combat. I think you may be guilty of oversimplifying the game.
I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle. When a game is simple, then most of the time that you learn something new it will make the game simpler. Very little I learn in this game makes it simpler.
By the way ; discrediting my argument solely on a lack of experience in this specific game is an Ad Hominem-circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy. While it is true that I may not know a lot about STO specifically, that doesn't mean I do not know enough about game balance to be able to recognize it.
While I will certainly be wrong on specific facts of this specific game, my overall statement about balance and how players react to it is valid. It comes from almost 30 years of experience.
You will also note I specifically stated this game may very well have a balance issue, I was just addressing how people were responding to it and how ill equipped most who are critical of the game's balance issues probably just do know how to properly gauge that balance. I have seen a lot of games made actually imbalanced because designers responded to their calls for re-balancing rather than listen to the suggestion of more skilled players.
I think you are wrong. the more I play this game, the more complicated it actually gets. Spacing and zoning is a huge part of combat. I think you may be guilty of oversimplifying the game.
I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle. When a game is simple, then most of the time that you learn something new it will make the game simpler. Very little I learn in this game makes it simpler.
By the way ; discrediting my argument solely on a lack of experience in this specific game is an Ad Hominem-circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy. While it is true that I may not know a lot about STO specifically, that doesn't mean I do not know enough about game balance to be able to recognize it.
While I will certainly be wrong on specific facts of this specific game, my overall statement about balance and how players react to it is valid. It comes from almost 30 years of experience.
You will also note I specifically stated this game may very well have a balance issue, I was just addressing how people were responding to it and how ill equipped most who are critical of the game's balance issues probably just do know how to properly gauge that balance. I have seen a lot of games made actually imbalanced because designers responded to their calls for re-balancing rather than listen to the suggestion of more skilled players.
I agree, even new players will notice right off the bat that something is amiss as soon as they get out of their cru or sci ship and get into an escort with mk X white weapons and faceroll everything without an issue. The other two ship types however have to bend over backwards or end up pidgeonholed into one set that comes close the dps that cannons on escorts offer and that seems to be plasma with romulan sets.
I agree, even new players will notice right off the bat that something is amiss as soon as they get out of their cru or sci ship and get into an escort with mk X white weapons and faceroll everything without an issue. The other two ship types however have to bend over backwards or end up pidgeonholed into one set that comes close the dps that cannons on escorts offer and that seems to be plasma with romulan sets.
The thing is, measuring a ships capabilities by DPS is a red herring. It is not always valid, and a lot of people are not realizing the effect they actually are having on a battle because it isn't something overtly obvious.
I do agree that the computer AI has a lot to do with it. We need enemies that make smart decisions rather than just having good tactical choices traded off for one hit kills and extra hit-points.
That causes a double problem ;
A lot of Sci and Eng abilities are rendered useless in PvE.
A lot of deaths that are flat out random. Too much sheer randomness is bad for balance, and it causes resentment. Losing to being outsmarted is not as bad as losing to a coin-flip. You can practice to overcome superior tactics, but you cannot outskill a dice roll.
The times I actually get mad at this game when I get OHKO by some random borg torpedo.
Most MMOs (and other games as well) do not have real challenges. There is no true AI yet lol. Nothing has passed the Turing test to my knowledge
As such all computer opponents can only be scripted and difficulty is a matter of numbers and choosing script paths. And the most reliable way to choose that path in a RNG
The so-called 'trinity' is an old game model whose time is really over. There has always been a problem with it. This is mainly because an MMO cannot afford to shut out solo players. Therefore all 'classes' need to be able to accomplish PVE content on its own. In a game that is about destroying things, and because of the typical 'grindy' nature of an MMO, faster damage becomes preferable.
If you could get Dilithium or Marks for Grav Welling something, or stealing its energy, or healing something, that might go a long way to making non-damage roles more viable.
A lot of Sci and Eng abilities are rendered useless in PvE.
A lot of deaths that are flat out random. Too much sheer randomness is bad for balance, and it causes resentment. Losing to being outsmarted is not as bad as losing to a coin-flip. You can practice to overcome superior tactics, but you cannot outskill a dice roll.
This is a lot of what people are complaining about when they talk about game balance issues. Tanking properly is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, because of that randomness, and any good player in any ship can tank anything short of those random massive hits, so there's generally no point in having a tank. The problem for Sci is that many of the abilities are utterly useless, at least for PvE, and most of the rest are so weak that they don't make much difference, and then there are GW and TBR on small targets, so its nearly impossible to make a sci ship that can operate in a sci role, and you're usually better off with one of the escorts that can run a GW.
I think one of the problems here is trying to overlay the classic tank/healer/warrior roles onto STO.
It's a little different.
For sure escorts hand out the DPS, as a poster has already pointed out, thats what escorts do.
However, my Ambassador can still find something useful to do.
Whether its keeping those escorts flying.....you can't hand out the DPS if you're dead.
whether its aggroing the Tholians on Azure.....let me drag these annoying ships over here so you can get that BoP free
Whether its merely staying alive surrounded by a bunch of spheres to let the escorts line up their attack runs.
Even adding to the team overall DPS
Its about doing what you can for the team.
Even if the escorts are brushing aside the easy opposition on conduit, sooner or later there'll be a boss ship. And then they're going to be very happy to see an HE or an engineering team come their way.
Basically, even if a particular PvE run is mostly about DPS, its not just about DPS. Not entirely.
I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle.
It's noisy, not complex. There are buffs, debuffs, damage, and healing, and the complexity comes from lot of ways to do each of them.
You think making something NECESSARY is the way to FORCE variety, I think making it optional and beneficial but not necessary to better promote variety.
I put up with this forced variety in WoW, STO is different and that's one of its few non IP strenghts.
You can make it necessary or note, it wont change anything. There is only one benchmark value: Time! Players want to be effective, especially in such grindgames like STO now is. While escorts are the fastest and still play most easily, the players also use these and other classes of ships are considered as disadvantaged. Establishes a balance of effectiveness (time) or ensure that the most effective class is to play very very hard.
Just look at WoW! Tanks and healers are necessary. To find a group and start an instance takes much longer because there few players want to play to be tanks or healers. This is not a solution!
Try running an elite STF with only escorts that do not heal each other at all, see how far you get with completing the optional, you will see that you need at least ONE tank in there.
uh... Those are most ESTFs pugs I run into. Heck I rarely see escorts healing each other since they rarely need heals. If they know how to fly and kit their ships that is...theres always a skittles escort out there.
Try running an elite STF with only escorts that do not heal each other at all, see how far you get with completing the optional, you will see that you need at least ONE tank in there.
There is no tank needed in estf. Escorts can tank borg encounters easely longer than necessery.
I've come back to the game from a while of not playing. The last time I was really playing was near release. My first thoughts at seeing the new skill trees were happiness. Threat skill?! You mean we can have Cruisers tank and let escorts unload on targets?! Awesome! I think I'll start a tank and give this a try.
I get to 50 in short order and build a tank based from several days of reading guides. Decent gear, nothing hugely expensive. So I'm going to queue for a STF and give this a go. I get in and things are going well. A lot of things basically tickle my shields, barely get any hull damage. I'm holding great threat, none of the escorts are stealing threat. Then it happens. A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!
Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!
Fine, whatever, I'll go science and debuff/heal. I liked the skills. There are lots of combinations to build with and I enjoy the ground game with the science captain so this should work out well for me. Again get to 50, get the gear, queue for STF and there's nothing to do. Literally, when I approached a large group to GW3 or TR, they would die before the well or rift developed. Why? It could be the 4 escorts focusing the group with scatter volley/spread. Ok so I'll just heal them up when they need it right? There will be a boss fight eventually. Nope, really not needed since these little Iron Space Cannons are self sufficient enough to heal themselves faster than I can heal them.
Ok, so I'll just go back to my pew pew pew repeat captain and play him. Oh hey look I got a JHAS! This will be fun right?! Worst Ship Ever! Yes I said it, huge firepower, amazing movement, outstanding tank. Undoubtedly the worst ship ever. I can now talk to friends on the phone, read forum posts on a secondary monitor and play with my dog all while pulling a minimum of 5k dps. The game's become a facerolling event and utterly boring because of it. I only wish I had sold that JHAS. At least then I could have had something to work towards. I don't even play that tactical much anymore.
I'm back to my Science character. Trying to get it to work in STFs but the skills are a joke now. I get whispers about how little dps I'm doing. Ok, alt-tab look at the parser... yep. 3k dps to their 9k, yea I can see the difference. Oh hey look the other science capt'n that's flying in circles in his rainbow boat shouting "Weeeeee! Firin mah lazors!" while using fireworks to give extra effect to his light show is doing 2.5k dps. Great, extra effort on my part has yielded 500 extra dps... maybe light shows really are that fun? Seems off when that amount of extra effort on a tac captain in an escort can yield 5k dps minimum and less ridicule.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just wanting to play the roles that "people don't want to play" and be appreciated for having a positive impact in a group instead of being looked down on for not having more dps.
A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!
Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!
As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.
To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!
As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.
To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
I guess the points I'm trying to make with the stories are:
What point are cruisers when a dps spec'd escort can tank just as well as any tank spec'd cruiser?
What point are science ships when escorts can scatter volley/torp spread things into dust before any CC is needed? When dps spec'd escorts can heal themselves just as well as a science ship?
The answer is none. As a science or engineering captain it makes more sense to forget the typical roles the ships were designed to do and gear them towards dps and dps only (i.e. go get an escort). This is what is broken with the game. It's not that tacs or escorts are OP. It's that the content favors a dps race and needs to change.
Comments
/doublefacepalm
You still don't get it. The game NOW has FORCED people into DPS as the only viable option. Why the heck do you think there's so many threads of people scrambling to twist their tanky cruisers into 10k+ dps (I assure you they aint tanking @ that dps) and there are virtually no science ships doing science in this game?
They forced this on players by literally reducing the tank and science ability to near uselessness. If a cruiser could tank the ungodly amount of damage the borg supergun/supertorpedo BS (200k+ dmg non-heavy torp, non-crit hit..it hits you and you die even with the absolute best resists/shield&hullHP)...if a science ship could still debuff an enemy ship in a way that the science ship can then bring it down with its meager weaponry (as in pre-f2p) ... THEN there would be OPTIONS with people STILL having the CHOICE of being an escort to do DPS.
But that CHOICE was removed. Completely. You can only DPS. Its the only thing that counts, that matters and that works.
As I said before... in pre-f2p the ships and their roles were BALANCED. Not exclusive, not mandatory.. but balanced. If an escort faced a sphere it would gun it down. If a sci ship faced a sphere it would debuff the snot out of it and kill it. If a cruiser faced a sphere it would tank it as it held it and gun it down. If all three faced a cube the cruiser would tank it by grabbing aggro away from the escort while the sci ship debuffed it and supported the cruiser (healing) ...and the escort would add damage and focus its fire on the weakest shield and bring the target down.
...but neither of the three classes alone had anything close to an easy time bringing down the cube alone. They could but it would be hard. Three cruisers would not have the spike DPS nor the debuffing ability to kill the cube in a reasonable amount of time...they could tank it though. Three sci ship could easily debuff the cube down but it had dramatically less damage output and tanking ability than the cruiser so they too would take a long time. Three escorts would be pulling strong blows but since they could not tank the cube nor debuff it, they have to do hit and run strikes...which meant they too would take quite some time to pop the cube.
The three classes in the above example are in PARITY when it came down to effectiveness vs a target. Each simply did their 'dps' in a different way. That was balance.
Now however the only thing that works is weapon damage. The npcs have been absurdly buffed to the point where debuffs dont work and their damage output reaches idiotic levels that no cruiser no matter how well geared cannot survive the one-shot of doom attacks (borg 300k+ torpedo, non-crit, non-heavy torpedo and 40k+ dmg per hit, 8 hits per burst heavy plasma cannon...neither of these hits takes into account shield resists..they just blast them and the hull in half a second).
The only thing that works is defense tanking (only escorts can do it) and weapon-based DPS (only escorts are hardwired to excel in it).
Yes it is a dps gain because the cruiser HAS to sacrifice its tank and support ability to do said DPS increase.
You do not like tanking. Fine. You belong in an escort. Thing is, you are refusing to accept that the cruiser and science players exist and that they too need to have a viable means of having fun in the game. Gun damage is not their class role, nor what the ships or capt abilities are hardwired for NOR does it make sense to have said ships and capts being forced to focus on DPS just because its the one thing that works.
my writing is in red
Omg you are every pots lid if that makes any sense
You say that for some escorts its normal to be able to tank like a cruiser and do huge dps with their dhc, and that cruiser need to chose one or the other mean mediocre dmg and low defence thats normal ? Why do even comment anything because everything is soo ok !?
I Know...
I have a fed sci toon on a wells and several tact toons both fed and kdf... the kdf one has a jhas...
1) having a lt cmd sci bofs is not like having several sci boffs with at least a cmd one. Think about what you can do using a couple of the same ability so that the second has a smaller CD. My sci toon can continuously turn off your systems, slow, clear buff, debuff, heal itself and also destroy your ship if you are alone... no matter if you have a JHAS. Using only a lt cmd station is not the same.
2) the jem'hadar space shield is the worst one... using engine and deflector is good (if you use polaron weapons), but that does not make you invulnerable. However actually also the kumary can have a great dps... but pvp and pve are not a matter of dps only.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
if so, then tell me how my sci toon on a wells build to be a pure debuffer in pvp can destroy a tactical cube "solo"... it not easy but it' is easier than using my tactical toon on escort (both fleet tactical escort retrofit or jhas).
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Might be for you, but you didn't understand what I said. You think I said GW does the damage, but it does, by sticking the enemies together and causing warpcore explosions to deal more damage. It's not straight damage, such as somebody said that subnuc does more damage than attack pattern alpha does because it negates the resistances of enemy in pvp. It's like you were forgetting the team entirely. Also, I don't see sci skills any bad, just eguip few consoles to boost them and it's all good to go.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
That is part of my point, that because they've made it so that they nerfed the science skills due to the team buff abilities of the tactical that soloing science is severely nerfed and shouldn't be it's a poor balance design imo. They should have coded the tactical buffs to not mess with certain science skills instead of nerfing science skills across the board like they've done.
"eurialo" not "eurela"... Eurialo is the italian for Euryalus, a character of Vergil's Aeneid
2nd... Even in pve sci ships are awerson and really usefull. I do not remember how many times I saved the optional in ISE stopping spheres (think about a team with a lower dps or a noob ignoring the 10% rule). And if a sci ships can help you in pvp debuffing your opponent, them it can also help you debuffing in a pve match. Yes, I know that if you have dps you do not need sci ships in pve, but that does not mean sci ships are useless.... I think the truth is that building a sci toon/ship is harder than building a tactical toon/escort.
Moreover since we have the hyperplasma torpedo is really simple having dps (think about a train of plasma torpedo)
3th...
the wells is not an escot, not because it is classified "science vessel", but because it hasn't the turn rate of an escort and there are sci vessels with greater turn rate, it can't use DC or DHC, it has 2 universal station but still can't have a tactical cmd station, it does't have the +15 weapon's energy bonus... several differences that make the wells very different and not as good as an escort (if you want dps).
however it's also true that you can use the 2 universal station as tactical ones, but if you want higher dps you better use a real escort.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Aggro is generally the easiest to learn. It is pretty straight forward what you should be doing at any moment in a battle.
Tanking and healing and debuffing require knowing a lot more about what is going on at any given moment. You need to take in and process far more information.
Now aggro still would benefit from all that extra information and understanding of their options, while not as necessary to them it is one of the things that will separate a good player from an amazing one.
One of the huge reasons people are seeing this imbalance is because of the learning curve. They are thinking of the game in a more narrow and aggro-centric way. Ideas such as spacing and zoning and trapping and timing are weaker concepts to them.
STO is an incredible deep and complex game, with loads of information thrown in your face and all sorts of options available to you with both immediate and subtle effects on the game.
I have been gaming in some variety or another since the 80s, and it is my experience that those who complain about balance the most are those who understand the game the least.
It isn't to say there is not imbalance, however even if there is I would still challenge people to try and think differently about the game. Why are you complaining that Escorts are doing all the killing in the mission? Isn't that their job?
This comes from someone who has run science since she started. I appreciate the added difficulty. It isn't difficulty because of imbalance, just due to a more complex role. The role of a Tank or Sci vessel is not to do damage,but to facilitate damage to be done. My Vesta can do a lot of damage; but its main goals are to heal, buff, debuff, trap, and distract. Tanks are there to draw aggro to keep the aggro alive. Sci/Healers are there to supplement the tanks ability to tank and throw a monkey wrench into the opponents mechanism of killing you.
Your impact on the battle is often very subtle. There is a lot of measure of your worth which is not based on DPS.
If your complaint is your Sci vessel cannot do enough damage, then I ask why your main goal for your sci vessel is to do damage in the first place?
I remember an epiphany I had playing Street Fighter IV a while ago. When choosing between the two Ultras available to my character, I would pick based on what suits that match more. In matches that I was picking the second Ultra I found I seldom if ever used it,so I assumed it had no impact on the match and switched back to Ultra 1. Something I found easier to land. However now I was losing these matches more.
Why?
Because just having Ultra 2 available force my opponent to play in a way that was weary of it. I wasn't using it because they were limiting their gameplay to avoid it. By using Ultra 1, I lost that subtle control.
Most of the players complaining here would have switched to Ultra 1 and not realized why they were suddenly losing. They would be on the forums complaining about game balance issues.
I find your knowledge of STO somewhat lacking and leading you to false conclusions.
1) aggro as you call it, DPS as I call it. First off any ship currently in PvE can pull this role if utilizing the proper gimmick be it plasma beams/rom beam, rommie torp spam, or the old standby of DHC. Which is top dog I have not yet concluded but all are so off the wall powerful I don't think it matters much.
2) Tanking & healing in this game is very simple. If damage mitigated + avoided + healed > incoming = Win. Mitigate? Shield resists (EPtS+TT). Avoid? Bonus defense (Yo-Yo, APO, don't be a dink). Healed? High passive regen (leadership boff, shield power) and/or proc (Shield Distro Doff).
3) Debuffing? Impart negative resist (APB I love thee, SS, FoMM) + Accuracy Overflow (holds) = win.
4) Zone control? Really TBR is not that complicated nor hard to take.
This game is about as simple and basic as it gets. The only thing that even remotely complicated is how terribad the documentation is making game knowledge extremely valuable and hard to come by.
Really how difficult is it to mash your space bar that you keybind everything to while pointing your nose at the enemy Yo-Yoing or zooming around going weeeee in circles?
Infact I would say if anything this game is too basic, too simple. Once you have a basic understanding on how it does it's math and how to bind spacebar your done.
There is no timing required. Just build the ship half decent and spam the enemy till it explodes. No deep synergies beyond slap as many modifiers on things as you can.
I would love to see a reason beyond the lols to build a ship for hull tanking. Or shield stripping. Or shield penetrating into hull. Maybe a situation where a power drainer could shine instead of them either being pointless or insanely OP. A reason to take even half of the potential boff abilities. A reason not to just spam abilities the moment they come off cooldown. That would be fantastic. Sadly I don't PvP so I doubt I ever will.
I am relatively new to STO, specifically. But have been playing tactical games and other forms of competitive games since the 80s. Both tabletop and computer. This game is extremely rich and complex with a vast amount of things to consider during a battle. When a game is simple, then most of the time that you learn something new it will make the game simpler. Very little I learn in this game makes it simpler.
By the way ; discrediting my argument solely on a lack of experience in this specific game is an Ad Hominem-circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy. While it is true that I may not know a lot about STO specifically, that doesn't mean I do not know enough about game balance to be able to recognize it.
While I will certainly be wrong on specific facts of this specific game, my overall statement about balance and how players react to it is valid. It comes from almost 30 years of experience.
You will also note I specifically stated this game may very well have a balance issue, I was just addressing how people were responding to it and how ill equipped most who are critical of the game's balance issues probably just do know how to properly gauge that balance. I have seen a lot of games made actually imbalanced because designers responded to their calls for re-balancing rather than listen to the suggestion of more skilled players.
I agree, even new players will notice right off the bat that something is amiss as soon as they get out of their cru or sci ship and get into an escort with mk X white weapons and faceroll everything without an issue. The other two ship types however have to bend over backwards or end up pidgeonholed into one set that comes close the dps that cannons on escorts offer and that seems to be plasma with romulan sets.
The thing is, measuring a ships capabilities by DPS is a red herring. It is not always valid, and a lot of people are not realizing the effect they actually are having on a battle because it isn't something overtly obvious.
I do agree that the computer AI has a lot to do with it. We need enemies that make smart decisions rather than just having good tactical choices traded off for one hit kills and extra hit-points.
That causes a double problem ;
A lot of Sci and Eng abilities are rendered useless in PvE.
A lot of deaths that are flat out random. Too much sheer randomness is bad for balance, and it causes resentment. Losing to being outsmarted is not as bad as losing to a coin-flip. You can practice to overcome superior tactics, but you cannot outskill a dice roll.
The times I actually get mad at this game when I get OHKO by some random borg torpedo.
LoL ! What game are you playing? It certainly isn't STO.
As such all computer opponents can only be scripted and difficulty is a matter of numbers and choosing script paths. And the most reliable way to choose that path in a RNG
The so-called 'trinity' is an old game model whose time is really over. There has always been a problem with it. This is mainly because an MMO cannot afford to shut out solo players. Therefore all 'classes' need to be able to accomplish PVE content on its own. In a game that is about destroying things, and because of the typical 'grindy' nature of an MMO, faster damage becomes preferable.
If you could get Dilithium or Marks for Grav Welling something, or stealing its energy, or healing something, that might go a long way to making non-damage roles more viable.
This is a lot of what people are complaining about when they talk about game balance issues. Tanking properly is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, because of that randomness, and any good player in any ship can tank anything short of those random massive hits, so there's generally no point in having a tank. The problem for Sci is that many of the abilities are utterly useless, at least for PvE, and most of the rest are so weak that they don't make much difference, and then there are GW and TBR on small targets, so its nearly impossible to make a sci ship that can operate in a sci role, and you're usually better off with one of the escorts that can run a GW.
It's a little different.
For sure escorts hand out the DPS, as a poster has already pointed out, thats what escorts do.
However, my Ambassador can still find something useful to do.
Whether its keeping those escorts flying.....you can't hand out the DPS if you're dead.
whether its aggroing the Tholians on Azure.....let me drag these annoying ships over here so you can get that BoP free
Whether its merely staying alive surrounded by a bunch of spheres to let the escorts line up their attack runs.
Even adding to the team overall DPS
Its about doing what you can for the team.
Even if the escorts are brushing aside the easy opposition on conduit, sooner or later there'll be a boss ship. And then they're going to be very happy to see an HE or an engineering team come their way.
Basically, even if a particular PvE run is mostly about DPS, its not just about DPS. Not entirely.
You can make it necessary or note, it wont change anything. There is only one benchmark value: Time! Players want to be effective, especially in such grindgames like STO now is. While escorts are the fastest and still play most easily, the players also use these and other classes of ships are considered as disadvantaged. Establishes a balance of effectiveness (time) or ensure that the most effective class is to play very very hard.
Just look at WoW! Tanks and healers are necessary. To find a group and start an instance takes much longer because there few players want to play to be tanks or healers. This is not a solution!
We actually win with minutes left in the timer.
There is no tank needed in estf. Escorts can tank borg encounters easely longer than necessery.
I get to 50 in short order and build a tank based from several days of reading guides. Decent gear, nothing hugely expensive. So I'm going to queue for a STF and give this a go. I get in and things are going well. A lot of things basically tickle my shields, barely get any hull damage. I'm holding great threat, none of the escorts are stealing threat. Then it happens. A RNG triggers a huge hit... not even a crit. I go from about 90-95% shields and 100% hull to a dust field. 200k damage. huh?!
Ok, I'm thinking by the time I get back there the typical limping escort scenes from back in the day will be going on and I will have to grab the cube's attention and.... wait.... that escort's tanking the cube by flying really fast?! That escort that has paper shields, and a near non-existent hull is tanking better than a cruiser with stacked resists, 10k+ shields, and 50k hull?!
Fine, whatever, I'll go science and debuff/heal. I liked the skills. There are lots of combinations to build with and I enjoy the ground game with the science captain so this should work out well for me. Again get to 50, get the gear, queue for STF and there's nothing to do. Literally, when I approached a large group to GW3 or TR, they would die before the well or rift developed. Why? It could be the 4 escorts focusing the group with scatter volley/spread. Ok so I'll just heal them up when they need it right? There will be a boss fight eventually. Nope, really not needed since these little Iron Space Cannons are self sufficient enough to heal themselves faster than I can heal them.
Ok, so I'll just go back to my pew pew pew repeat captain and play him. Oh hey look I got a JHAS! This will be fun right?! Worst Ship Ever! Yes I said it, huge firepower, amazing movement, outstanding tank. Undoubtedly the worst ship ever. I can now talk to friends on the phone, read forum posts on a secondary monitor and play with my dog all while pulling a minimum of 5k dps. The game's become a facerolling event and utterly boring because of it. I only wish I had sold that JHAS. At least then I could have had something to work towards. I don't even play that tactical much anymore.
I'm back to my Science character. Trying to get it to work in STFs but the skills are a joke now. I get whispers about how little dps I'm doing. Ok, alt-tab look at the parser... yep. 3k dps to their 9k, yea I can see the difference. Oh hey look the other science capt'n that's flying in circles in his rainbow boat shouting "Weeeeee! Firin mah lazors!" while using fireworks to give extra effect to his light show is doing 2.5k dps. Great, extra effort on my part has yielded 500 extra dps... maybe light shows really are that fun? Seems off when that amount of extra effort on a tac captain in an escort can yield 5k dps minimum and less ridicule.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just wanting to play the roles that "people don't want to play" and be appreciated for having a positive impact in a group instead of being looked down on for not having more dps.
As fun as anecdotal stories are those escorts will also pop when hit with the RNG one hit wonder. It happened to me today, and again a day ago, and so on and on. I hear that if you're using the right armor consoles and are particularly tanky some cruisers can survive it. My own cruiser alt has yet to live through it though. How often they happen feels totally random too; some STFs you get hit and the guilty torpedo is invisible to boot, others you can see it but due to close ranges you really cant do anything in time unless you were already running FAW, and other times you clearly have agro and the one shot never hits. Its totally random!
As far as sci vessels go.... their heathen space magicks are of little use against the Borg. Quite a while ago the Borg were made more of less immune to most of the sci debuffs. About the only reliable thing to hit them with is Grav Well but only as a CC not a damage dealer. I would susggest either full power to weapons with low powered Sci powers or go full aux/shield and use all kinetic weapons.
To b fair the best sci vessels these days are actually the full carriers you see floating around as well as the Vesta (a ship that thinks its a HEC), and possibly the wells timeship (a sci vessel maneuverable enough to easily mount DBBs as standart and has got to be an amazing kinetic weapon delivery platform)
I guess the points I'm trying to make with the stories are:
What point are cruisers when a dps spec'd escort can tank just as well as any tank spec'd cruiser?
What point are science ships when escorts can scatter volley/torp spread things into dust before any CC is needed? When dps spec'd escorts can heal themselves just as well as a science ship?
The answer is none. As a science or engineering captain it makes more sense to forget the typical roles the ships were designed to do and gear them towards dps and dps only (i.e. go get an escort). This is what is broken with the game. It's not that tacs or escorts are OP. It's that the content favors a dps race and needs to change.