There is a lot to be said for taking a more relaxed approach to the Romulan/Omega/Fleet mark stuff. My fleet gets most of my resources, but as far as the Romulan/Omega stuff, I made the decision that I simply don't care at what pace it gets done. Why do I need to be the first person to have it done? Why do I need to get stressed out about it? I don't.
The fleet is different because other people are counting on your efforts, but even then, if I were in a fleet that were making me miserable by putting a stupid amount of pressure on its members, I would find another one.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I have been enjoying the foundry and just started learning how to author missions in it. Searching for information I found this thread. Its been quite the trip reading it all.
To those that sought to bring reasonable discussion and to calm the passions involved thank you. This is a vital topic.
When i started reaching higher levels in the game I was shocked at how much grinding was involved. I was contemplating quitting the game because I would simply never be able to play enough to catch up. When they changed the daily into a half hour quest I was relieved and thought it was done to provide that relief.
The debate about playing a game the 'right' was is a long one. in Everquest you were supposed to assemble swarms of players to take down touch enemies paying experience each time you died for that loot. The 'Vision' changed though. In my opinion this game's vision will change too.
That all said, on to more productive things. My thoughts on resolving the conflict.
In a perfect world the solution would be a coding one. An algorythm to make rewards from the quest based off something like;
Slain/#slain + clicks-Speedofclick + time-timeafk = Y/3 = SomeNumberThatIsAppliedToTheDilAndMarks
And add in a check when a mob is passive and have it say if true no loot. Thats one way that would code in the rewards desired without messing things up and once the code is done the numbers can be nosed around to tweak them to optimal levels. Be it just below STF/InGameQuesting rewards (my pick) or the same or above levels.
The problem is programmers are expensive and their staffing is likely going to be an issue. The company is budgeting right now and would have to show it would produce a positive cash flow. I think they could by making the Foundry attractive to play the story in, especially if they add into this $1 map packs with 15-20 items in it and a set up setting to use.
So if a large amount of coding isn't likely to be the answer the next step down in my mind would be a reworking of the UI for the Foundry.
Add in the mentioned encoded tags. fears aside I think it will work out with the foundry's 5 star system so mislabeled missions fail. Especially if you strip the stars and runs when the tags are changed.
Make it so their divided up by these types or not as selected by the player. For an example use the DOff UI in how it lists them and you can break them up based on being an advisor and so on.
Also a in game quest to go see Sulu who explains the basics of the foundry and grants you an official foundry mission. With breadcrumbs leading them there people will stick their nose through the door to see whats there.
In order to fix the 'problem' of cash grinding off ships you should seek the root of the problem. STO is not a closed economy. Money comes in but doesnt leave so it stays in circulation leading to inflation leading those who want to make purchases to need to find ways to make more money as theirs literally becomes less valuable each day they hold on to it. So dont mess with loot drops instead fix the economy and things should smooth themselves out. Shoot holes in the bucket to let the EC out
Are AFK missions with your BOFFs fighting a problem? That's a sticky question since we already get Dil, xp, etc when not playing the game through our DOffs. A simple solution can be borrowed form other games. Add a programming line before the loot roll/XP grant; if player damage = true then loot if = false no roll. There's ways around it but we're seeking to set a minimum level of involvement in playing the game and that would make it less easy to run for cash but still useful if you wanted to play one.
I love the foundry for the many different sorts of game play I have at my fingertips. A friend pointed me to a space grinder that has some really hillarious dialog and I'm happy I tried. I hope Cryptic can find a solution that will manage to serve everyone their own special burger instead of saying one table of customers must eat cake.
P.S. A way to check authors would be grand - I am terribly curious what stoleviathan99 and others have written.
Thought I might find clues as to what Cryptic's goals are, keeping in mind the original post might as well have been eons ago.
I did find some interesting things Cryptic said they wanted to do...
The ability to flag missions as "favorites" so players can bookmark them for later play
Improved searching options to allow for more specific flags and filters
Setting prerequisite and follow-up missions that can be linked together into a story arc
Set the level, powers, and gear for test characters to improve testing
Improved ways for authors to collaborate on projects
And more.
There was one that was relevant to the discussion about rewards:
Give the player quest items used by the mission
If there was any feature that would be difficult to implement without opening up an exploit, that would be the one. And yet, it's on the original wish list.
I have to deduce from that Cryptic realizes that Foundry needs rewards and they need to be tied into the mission itself, not some wrapper. I'm guessing there's no chance of that happening until after Neverwinter launches and that the serious Foundry feature development is happening there.
I wish I could get a look at what they're planning to roll out in Neverwinter {sigh}.
I saw a video presentation that Cryptic gave about UCG once. I need to find that and watch it again.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Never post things based on a rumor. You need a legitimate comment from one of the STO team, or you have from a credible source to back up such a claim.
As far as I know, there is nothing even hinted at "restrictions" in the Foundry. Only thing that comes close is requests by the Foundry community asking for ways to curtail the current EC farming that's abusing the Foundry.
There's still a lot of jealous whining about any practical use people try to get out of the foundry. It remains to be seen if anything more comes out of it.
I personally no longer visit the Foundry after the latest "crisis". Just angries up my blood.
Maybe some day I will be able to stomach it again.
Heh, me too. I also don't PvP or STF anymore for similar reasons. If it wasn't for tweeking and learning the foundry tools for my own creations this game would quickly become too boring to continue playing.
That's just me. Leave the foundry the way it is.
Give the authors more tools to create greater stories in depth.
Establish rules for what an acceptable mission is and isn't, and then stick by them and stop changing them every patch.
I agree with most of what you're saying.
I've done some of the grinders, and to be honest I'm surprised they weren't dealt with faster. Getting 1440 Dil for clicking a single panel in ESD was clearly an exploit. Anyone who thought that such a thing was going to last was terminally naive. The easy EC missions were a bit better, but still I wasn't surprised when things were changed.
But there are grinder missions in the foundry that aren't IMO exploitative like those were, and are legitimate missions based on how the foundry should work.
Some of them are ground some are space, but in either case you have to actually do something, you can't simply idle your way though it. There's no reason why these types of missions shouldn't give a reward.
Perhaps not as much as a longer mission, but in some cases there's as much combat in one of these grinders as there is in a hour + long dialog heavy mission. Myself I don't think reading though dialog options is something that should have some sort of special reward.
The idea of returning to a daily, that's a horrible idea IMO. I like doing foundry missions, and mostly do the story based ones. But if the IOR mission is returned to a daily that means I have to back to doing fleet events to get the FM's and dil dalies to get the dil I'm now getting by doing something I enjoy a good bit more.
That said, the idea that they can come up with rules and stick with them is unrealistic. There is no way they can come up with a set of rules that covers everything and not address new ways people come up with to game the system.
I recently leveled a char from 30 to max by mostly foundry missions (missions, not grinders) and the occasional DOFF xp. Something I would never have considered under the old system. The rewards system as it is might maybe need a few minor tweaks here and there but it should not destroy the "working as intended" part (rewards for "real" foundry missions) by doing so.
I did previously also played foundry missions. But only once under a blue moon when the description really sounded interesting.
I am pleased that scaled rewards will soon be given for all Foundry missions that qualify.
I am less than pleased that they are eliminating fleet mark rewards for Foundry play altogether.
Couldn't team play in Foundry reward fleet marks, at the least?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
No, theyrenot our friend. But you cantell who is theirfriend.
Althoughwhat I really want to say is unpublishable on this forum, sufficeto say that thisnerfs makes the game again unplayable for me. On the upside GW2 hasa bigpatch coming so i'l probably drop them some scratch for nothanding their game over to extremists.
I don't have any epic 2 hours missions, but I will be happy if folks can simply find my story missions amidst of sea of "Famrz Lootz 101."
I know I try and keep mine to the length of your average Star Trek episode (43 minutes, an hour with commercials). I don't like playing absurdly long missions, though I don't mind if they're broken into multiple parts, and I think a lot of authors also shoot for that one hour mark.
I know I try and keep mine to the length of your average Star Trek episode (43 minutes, an hour with commercials). I don't like playing absurdly long missions, though I don't mind if they're broken into multiple parts, and I think a lot of authors also shoot for that one hour mark.
Play time is the reason I split B'Vat's legacy into 2 parts. too bad I never finished part 2...
Treasure Hunt.... yeah.... not fast, even for ME and I've memorized the map so thoroughly I can run it in about half the time of most...
I like the OP's idea. Keep the fleet marks in IOR but make it a daily so you can only do it once a day.
Then have a separate reward that includes a level-appropriate item box for doing a spotlight mission.
I think this would make almost everyone happy. You won't be able to grind IOR anymore but you could get an easy 50 fleet marks and nice item by doing a couple foundry missions each day. I would be happy with that.
Remember this day. Remember all your wailing and gnashing of teeth when nobody plays your "epic" 2-hour missions or anything else.
What will you do then? Scream for a way to force people to play your missions?
Foundry Authors never moaned about the FM reward in the Foundry Daily, apart from to moan that it attracted more exploiters back before it was adjusted for Season 7 when clickie missions were rampant..
The group that moaned against the Foundry having an FM reward was the people who farmed Fleet Actions saying that they rarely popped as it was, and that if the Foundry got a better reward then they'd never pop at all.
If you're going to throw stones, at least throw them in the right direction
Foundry Authors never moaned about the FM reward in the Foundry Daily, apart from to moan that it attracted more exploiters back before it was adjusted for Season 7 when clickie missions were rampant..
Oh please. Thereare podcasts, forumposts you can read and see who are the people callingfornerfs were. Theywere and stillare veryvocal about it (andmany should have been warned/banned,yetcuriously not). Unless themods erase alltheir posts, there is a public record.
Oh please. Thereare podcasts, forumposts you can read and see who are the people callingfornerfs were. Theywere and stillare veryvocal about it (andmany should have been warned/banned,yetcuriously not). Unless themods erase alltheir posts, there is a public record.
At one point, I wanted a complete nerf of the foundry, because it had gotten so bad. Every other author told me I was crazy and that the solution was a timer based rewards system, combined with better UI. Barely anyone shared my views, except for a general consensus that something needed to be done. Lots of different ideas were thrown out there.
You can blame me if you want to blame somebody. Or, you can blame the folks that turned the foundry into festering swamp of crappy grind missions, forcing Cryptic to re-evaluate what it was doing with Foundry rewards. I'm not talking about the authors who made the missions.
For me, when I see the list of top-rated missions as almost entirely dominated by "Farm LOLZ!" and AFK grinders, and then I see Cryptic change something, I don't blame a small % of authors for complaining. I blame a larger amount of players for abusing the Foundry in a way that it was not intended to be abused.
For me, when I see the list of top-rated missions as almost entirely dominated by "Farm LOLZ!" and AFK grinders, and then I see Cryptic change something, I don't blame a small % of authors for complaining. I blame a larger amount of players for abusing the Foundry in a way that it was not intended to be abused.
I'm one of the foundry authors that finds myself at odds with Kirkfat's views on a lot of things, mainly because our passions for it run at different levels and intensities.
However, I do share this view with him. With the exception of one word, authors. We are all the same ugly players. Authors, Grinders, PvPers. There were only a small amount of players complaining for either side. But it was the shear amount of feet driving this issue and a look at the top rated missions and the plays for those missions proves that.
Every change to the foundry rewards has always instigated a backlash and the sudden posting of thousands who've decided to make their one forum post in this subsection. It's nothing new. People choosing to insult "authors" and blame them for this change aren't going to get much of a response. After all this time that section of players has grown some pretty thick skin.
No, theyrenot our friend. But you cantell who is theirfriend.
Althoughwhat I really want to say is unpublishable on this forum, sufficeto say that thisnerfs makes the game again unplayable for me. On the upside GW2 hasa bigpatch coming so i'l probably drop them some scratch for nothanding their game over to extremists.
Too bad, I'd gotten back into playing sto recently, but this nerf ...again... just makes the whole thing unenjoyable. Being forced into elite stfs just to contribute to fleet projects (in even a small way) is not cool. (and no I never did any of these clicky missions... didnt even know of their existence til after they got nerfed.) Oh well, i'll check back in a few months...
I don't have any epic 2 hours missions, but I will be happy if folks can simply find my story missions amidst of sea of "Famrz Lootz 101."
There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around, but, just to set the record straight, the number of people who make two hour missions is pretty small. There's me, and like a handful of other people.
We're by far a very tiny minority, and also I don't think it's exactly like we set out with the belief that 2 hour missions were the way to go, it just sort of ended up happening due to each of our creative styles.
I'm not even sure it's a good thing, but it is what it is.
Comments
The fleet is different because other people are counting on your efforts, but even then, if I were in a fleet that were making me miserable by putting a stupid amount of pressure on its members, I would find another one.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
To those that sought to bring reasonable discussion and to calm the passions involved thank you. This is a vital topic.
When i started reaching higher levels in the game I was shocked at how much grinding was involved. I was contemplating quitting the game because I would simply never be able to play enough to catch up. When they changed the daily into a half hour quest I was relieved and thought it was done to provide that relief.
The debate about playing a game the 'right' was is a long one. in Everquest you were supposed to assemble swarms of players to take down touch enemies paying experience each time you died for that loot. The 'Vision' changed though. In my opinion this game's vision will change too.
That all said, on to more productive things. My thoughts on resolving the conflict.
In a perfect world the solution would be a coding one. An algorythm to make rewards from the quest based off something like;
Slain/#slain + clicks-Speedofclick + time-timeafk = Y/3 = SomeNumberThatIsAppliedToTheDilAndMarks
And add in a check when a mob is passive and have it say if true no loot. Thats one way that would code in the rewards desired without messing things up and once the code is done the numbers can be nosed around to tweak them to optimal levels. Be it just below STF/InGameQuesting rewards (my pick) or the same or above levels.
The problem is programmers are expensive and their staffing is likely going to be an issue. The company is budgeting right now and would have to show it would produce a positive cash flow. I think they could by making the Foundry attractive to play the story in, especially if they add into this $1 map packs with 15-20 items in it and a set up setting to use.
So if a large amount of coding isn't likely to be the answer the next step down in my mind would be a reworking of the UI for the Foundry.
Add in the mentioned encoded tags. fears aside I think it will work out with the foundry's 5 star system so mislabeled missions fail. Especially if you strip the stars and runs when the tags are changed.
Make it so their divided up by these types or not as selected by the player. For an example use the DOff UI in how it lists them and you can break them up based on being an advisor and so on.
Also a in game quest to go see Sulu
In order to fix the 'problem' of cash grinding off ships you should seek the root of the problem. STO is not a closed economy. Money comes in but doesnt leave so it stays in circulation leading to inflation leading those who want to make purchases to need to find ways to make more money as theirs literally becomes less valuable each day they hold on to it. So dont mess with loot drops instead fix the economy and things should smooth themselves out. Shoot holes in the bucket to let the EC out
Are AFK missions with your BOFFs fighting a problem? That's a sticky question since we already get Dil, xp, etc when not playing the game through our DOffs. A simple solution can be borrowed form other games. Add a programming line before the loot roll/XP grant; if player damage = true then loot if = false no roll. There's ways around it but we're seeking to set a minimum level of involvement in playing the game and that would make it less easy to run for cash but still useful if you wanted to play one.
I love the foundry for the many different sorts of game play I have at my fingertips. A friend pointed me to a space grinder that has some really hillarious dialog and I'm happy I tried. I hope Cryptic can find a solution that will manage to serve everyone their own special burger instead of saying one table of customers must eat cake.
P.S. A way to check authors would be grand - I am terribly curious what stoleviathan99 and others have written.
The Stars are Mine.
This is something we're almost certainly getting, since it's been added to the Foundry for Neverwinter. I'm very much looking forward to it.
(Capital idea, to whomever thought of it.)
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=192185
Thought I might find clues as to what Cryptic's goals are, keeping in mind the original post might as well have been eons ago.
I did find some interesting things Cryptic said they wanted to do...
And more.
There was one that was relevant to the discussion about rewards:
If there was any feature that would be difficult to implement without opening up an exploit, that would be the one. And yet, it's on the original wish list.
I have to deduce from that Cryptic realizes that Foundry needs rewards and they need to be tied into the mission itself, not some wrapper. I'm guessing there's no chance of that happening until after Neverwinter launches and that the serious Foundry feature development is happening there.
I wish I could get a look at what they're planning to roll out in Neverwinter {sigh}.
I saw a video presentation that Cryptic gave about UCG once. I need to find that and watch it again.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
As far as I know, there is nothing even hinted at "restrictions" in the Foundry. Only thing that comes close is requests by the Foundry community asking for ways to curtail the current EC farming that's abusing the Foundry.
Maybe some day I will be able to stomach it again.
Heh, me too. I also don't PvP or STF anymore for similar reasons. If it wasn't for tweeking and learning the foundry tools for my own creations this game would quickly become too boring to continue playing.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I agree with most of what you're saying.
I've done some of the grinders, and to be honest I'm surprised they weren't dealt with faster. Getting 1440 Dil for clicking a single panel in ESD was clearly an exploit. Anyone who thought that such a thing was going to last was terminally naive. The easy EC missions were a bit better, but still I wasn't surprised when things were changed.
But there are grinder missions in the foundry that aren't IMO exploitative like those were, and are legitimate missions based on how the foundry should work.
Some of them are ground some are space, but in either case you have to actually do something, you can't simply idle your way though it. There's no reason why these types of missions shouldn't give a reward.
Perhaps not as much as a longer mission, but in some cases there's as much combat in one of these grinders as there is in a hour + long dialog heavy mission. Myself I don't think reading though dialog options is something that should have some sort of special reward.
The idea of returning to a daily, that's a horrible idea IMO. I like doing foundry missions, and mostly do the story based ones. But if the IOR mission is returned to a daily that means I have to back to doing fleet events to get the FM's and dil dalies to get the dil I'm now getting by doing something I enjoy a good bit more.
That said, the idea that they can come up with rules and stick with them is unrealistic. There is no way they can come up with a set of rules that covers everything and not address new ways people come up with to game the system.
My character Tsin'xing
I did previously also played foundry missions. But only once under a blue moon when the description really sounded interesting.
I am less than pleased that they are eliminating fleet mark rewards for Foundry play altogether.
Couldn't team play in Foundry reward fleet marks, at the least?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
What will you do then? Scream for a way to force people to play your missions?
I thought Cryptic was our friend.
No, theyrenot our friend. But you cantell who is theirfriend.
Althoughwhat I really want to say is unpublishable on this forum, sufficeto say that thisnerfs makes the game again unplayable for me. On the upside GW2 hasa bigpatch coming so i'l probably drop them some scratch for nothanding their game over to extremists.
I don't have any epic 2 hours missions, but I will be happy if folks can simply find my story missions amidst of sea of "Famrz Lootz 101."
I know I try and keep mine to the length of your average Star Trek episode (43 minutes, an hour with commercials). I don't like playing absurdly long missions, though I don't mind if they're broken into multiple parts, and I think a lot of authors also shoot for that one hour mark.
Treasure Hunt.... yeah.... not fast, even for ME and I've memorized the map so thoroughly I can run it in about half the time of most...
Most of my missions aren't that long though.
My character Tsin'xing
Then have a separate reward that includes a level-appropriate item box for doing a spotlight mission.
I think this would make almost everyone happy. You won't be able to grind IOR anymore but you could get an easy 50 fleet marks and nice item by doing a couple foundry missions each day. I would be happy with that.
Foundry Authors never moaned about the FM reward in the Foundry Daily, apart from to moan that it attracted more exploiters back before it was adjusted for Season 7 when clickie missions were rampant..
The group that moaned against the Foundry having an FM reward was the people who farmed Fleet Actions saying that they rarely popped as it was, and that if the Foundry got a better reward then they'd never pop at all.
If you're going to throw stones, at least throw them in the right direction
Oh please. Thereare podcasts, forumposts you can read and see who are the people callingfornerfs were. Theywere and stillare veryvocal about it (andmany should have been warned/banned,yetcuriously not). Unless themods erase alltheir posts, there is a public record.
At one point, I wanted a complete nerf of the foundry, because it had gotten so bad. Every other author told me I was crazy and that the solution was a timer based rewards system, combined with better UI. Barely anyone shared my views, except for a general consensus that something needed to be done. Lots of different ideas were thrown out there.
You can blame me if you want to blame somebody. Or, you can blame the folks that turned the foundry into festering swamp of crappy grind missions, forcing Cryptic to re-evaluate what it was doing with Foundry rewards. I'm not talking about the authors who made the missions.
For me, when I see the list of top-rated missions as almost entirely dominated by "Farm LOLZ!" and AFK grinders, and then I see Cryptic change something, I don't blame a small % of authors for complaining. I blame a larger amount of players for abusing the Foundry in a way that it was not intended to be abused.
I'm one of the foundry authors that finds myself at odds with Kirkfat's views on a lot of things, mainly because our passions for it run at different levels and intensities.
However, I do share this view with him. With the exception of one word, authors. We are all the same ugly players. Authors, Grinders, PvPers. There were only a small amount of players complaining for either side. But it was the shear amount of feet driving this issue and a look at the top rated missions and the plays for those missions proves that.
Every change to the foundry rewards has always instigated a backlash and the sudden posting of thousands who've decided to make their one forum post in this subsection. It's nothing new. People choosing to insult "authors" and blame them for this change aren't going to get much of a response. After all this time that section of players has grown some pretty thick skin.
Too bad, I'd gotten back into playing sto recently, but this nerf ...again... just makes the whole thing unenjoyable. Being forced into elite stfs just to contribute to fleet projects (in even a small way) is not cool. (and no I never did any of these clicky missions... didnt even know of their existence til after they got nerfed.) Oh well, i'll check back in a few months...
The doors, Mister Scott!
There's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around, but, just to set the record straight, the number of people who make two hour missions is pretty small. There's me, and like a handful of other people.
We're by far a very tiny minority, and also I don't think it's exactly like we set out with the belief that 2 hour missions were the way to go, it just sort of ended up happening due to each of our creative styles.
I'm not even sure it's a good thing, but it is what it is.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.