Do you think of boff grinders and AFK missions as legit foundry missions?
As a froundry player, yes I do think they are legit foundry missions.
How I spend my time in game is between me and cryptic. In the great grind that is the end game in any MMO everything breaks down to either a time sink or a currency sink.
Earning it? what a laugh, like this game is hard work. I earn it by investing my time in it, much like choosing which doff missions to run.
So far in this thread I've heard about how many hours an author put into creating their mission, and how they feel entitled by that investment in time. What about the people running the foundry missions, are they not equally entitled by how much time they invest in the foundry?
So again it all breaks down to a time investment. If I can build a boff team (not that its hard) that can complete a mission for me, why not? Its not like thats all we who grind the foundry do, of course we get bored with it after a while and do something else. I for one go on to play other foundry missions.
As far as the rewards go, I really couldn't care less about the drops I just want to get the wrapper done every half hour for the dilithium and especially the fleet marks, as it was intended when cryptic made IOR repeatable every 30 minutes.
So there's my two zen, tear me apart over it.
If you take away the Dil and Fleet marks our foundry will go back to being a seldom used tool in STO.
You know, after reading the interviews given to the various MMO sites by the head guy, I really kind of think they've already decided what they're going to do with the Foundry, so I'm not sure continuing this discussion is relevant. My two cents.
I don't get why people are confused over what defines an exploit, an exploit is something that breaks the Risk/Reward curve and/or Time/Reward curve.
At it's simplest level, clickies didn't just break these curves, it shattered them, 1440 Dilithium and 50 Fleet Marks for less than 5 minutes work with zero risk. Definitely an exploit and Cryptic should have acted sooner to fix it.
The recent changes to timid mobs, this might not have broken the time/reward curve, but it certainly shattered the risk/reward curve. 960 Dilithium, 50 Fleet Marks item drops and XP with Zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes. Exploit.
Those who are about to point out the contraband and other DOFF missions that earn masses of Dilithium for zero risk keep reading, how much time does it take to gather the materials and then run the mission. You could be looking at up to 2 days wait for 2000 Dilithium. These are permitted because it takes a lot longer to earn 2000 Dilithium this way than say, running 2 eSTFs.
Remember, for it not to be an exploit you need to either face high risk in a short time or low risk over a longer time.
I disagree with your definition. I only consider hacks, duping and the like to be exploits. The other stuff just seems like hall monitor/busybody stuff concerned about how wrong otherpeople are for not doing things your personal way.
You could be looking at up to 2 days wait for 2000 Dilithium. These are permitted because it takes a lot longer to earn 2000 Dilithium this way than say, running 2 eSTFs.
I disagree with your definition. I only consider hacks, duping and the like to be exploits. The other stuff just seems like hall monitor/busybody stuff concerned about how wrong otherpeople are for not doing things your personal way.
If it takes you that long, youre doing it wrong.
Well, Tiki.... the Devs seem to be using the same definition of exploit that bluedarky is..... And it's their definition that counts.
On a side note, how do YOU get 5 contraband for the turn-in in 30 mins?
On a side note, how do YOU get 5 contraband for the turn-in in 30 mins?
When Icared moreabout the game and was deply invested -- once you get past the startup time you can cycle pretty well. Though I stopped withthat when season 7 hit cause I quit -- I could be wrong it could have been nerfed along with everything else and made more trouble than it was worth.
The 5 Contraband for 2k dilithium takes 4 hours now instead of 2 through the doff mission.
You can just run an stf in 15 minutes and get half that or do a foundry mission that takes 15 minutes. There is certainly other content in this game that rewards things similarly to the foundry right now. There is not a lot of risk in an STF... so you die and respawn woohoo there is no risk/reward there either. You could be even worse and go AFK while your teammates do the work... this to me is where Cryptic should focus their efforts in fixing problems. AFK in general is problem throughout this entire game. At least if you AFK in a foundry mission it doesn't affect others like in a fleet mission or STF which both by the way reward just as good as the IOR wrapper for time invested. I complete fleet missions in under 15 minutes with a 30 minute cooldown and most STFs can be done in 15 or 20 minutes. So where is the exploit again? Rewards and time/risk involved looks the same to me and AFK happens on both sides of the fence here.
At least if you AFK in a foundry mission it doesn't affect others like in a fleet mission or STF which both by the way reward just as good as the IOR wrapper for time invested. I complete fleet missions in under 15 minutes with a 30 minute cooldown and most STFs can be done in 15 or 20 minutes. So where is the exploit again? Rewards and time/risk involved looks the same to me and AFK happens on both sides of the fence here.
Actually if youare flagged afk in a Foundry mission when it ends, you autofail IOR and all that time spent goes down the drain.
I disagree with your definition. I only consider hacks, duping and the like to be exploits. The other stuff just seems like hall monitor/busybody stuff concerned about how wrong otherpeople are for not doing things your personal way.
You can disagree all you want, but *every* MMO developer disagrees with you -- and they get to make the rules.
It is against their business interest for players to find flaws in their system and circumvent the time/risk/reward standards they expect to pace gameplay. When a such flaw is found and exploited, that's when the devs crack down and try to eliminate the flaw.
Exploiting a weakness in design is still an exploit. It has nothing to do with hacking code or anything else, just finding in-game design flaws and exploiting them to "game the system" as it were.
There is no way a dev team working with such complex code and gameplay mechanics can anticipate every possible weakness in their system. When they find them, they close them.
I don't like grinding but its become a necessity to move forward in this game. I've been here since the beginning and I like the story behind the game but it's about economics now not story.
I think this quote is important and I think it illustrates a basic problem that encompasses more than just the story.
I think the economy has gotten so much emphasis recently that gameplay as a whole has taken a backseat to the game economy. I think Cryptic really needs to consider whether that's what they want Star Trek Online to be.
I know that they need to monetize the game somehow and that the Dilithium economy was created to do that. The problem is that people are beginning to feel that they HAVE to grind EVERYTHING -- EC's, DOFFs, Commodities, Dilithium, Marks -- in order to feel that they are getting rewarded for playing the game.
I think the big problem with these rewards and the lack there of is the whole game economy as I've already mentioned to Mr. Stahl the other day. There are huge dilithium sinks in the game now making it very difficult for a lot of players to contribute to completing fleet starbase/embassy missions and such.
One other thing: If creating missions feels like "work" to you, something is missing. It should be fun. You should be doing it because you want to, because you enjoy it.
I like being able to get dilithium from good story missions. I don't grind all day or often meet my refinement limit, but I like to put resources into my fleet projects and buy special gear. Foundry missions are something I like to play, and so it's great that I can get good rewards from them.
The thing is, the Foundry is WORK. A LOT of work. Decent maps take many, many hours to construct even for the most basic stories. I'm sure the Devs can relate to this. But time spent creating story content in the Foundry is time that the Author is not earning any rewards in the game. I'd bet very few Foundry authors make anywhere near the "tips" that reward them for time spent.
So what's left? The only reward left is satisfaction. But that feeling of satisfaction is bound to sour when the author realizes that not only is he not getting in-game rewards for creating Foundry content, but his work is getting low ratings because it doesn't fuel the grind machine. Of course these Foundry authors consider the rating system to be broken.
Now add in the fact that the fix for the timid creature exploit actually broke a bunch of missions that relied on that behavior to set up their story. Sure Foundry authors are frustrated -- understandably so. Questioning whether it's actually worth the time investment is equally understandable.
I wouldn't want the reward to go back to a daily, but some sort of limit or a slightly longer cool-down wouldn't affect me. As for dropped loot, I don't play for that anyway.
I don't really think that a massive change in the rewards available is needed. Good rewards will attract all sorts of players, including those who will find ways to cut corners. I definitely don't think we need to 'sour' the rewards and chase away players. Cryptic already shows that they intend to smash exploits. If players want to fight tons of ships and get their drops, that's fine with me. But Cryptic will continue to stomp on 'shortcuts', and I agree with that.
Cryptic can't allow things like clickies and loot collectors to stand because it affects their bottom line. But removing rewards altogether is the wrong answer, too.
Remember, the IOR was originally created because Foundry authors asked for a way to reward players for playing their content. IOR was Cryptic's response and at that time it was probably a good workaround. In some ways, it still is. But ultimately the answer is that rewards need to be content-driven and not simply time-gated. Time spent has to be a part of that equation, but when it's the only part? Ungood.
The challenge, of course, is how to identify the difference between player activity that should get rewarded in a certain way and content that games the mechanics to turn the Foundry into a kind of vending machine.
If we just ripped the rewards out of the Foundry, the AFK grinders, for example, would disappear in a second. They're not being played because people actually enjoy them, anymore than the clickies. The idea that they are the best of the Foundry content, whether you desire story or combat, is ridiculous.
The current reward structure is favoring certain missions that most optimally meet the IOR requirements, resulting in some missions being rated highly just for that.
Again, I'm not sure that the problem is so much that playing the Foundry is rewarded, but that people feel that they can't earn enough rewards playing the game in the way it was intended in order to feel satisfied that they made progress.
In my opinion, the game economy is out-of-whack and needs to be readjusted somehow so that players with limited play time can feel as if they're getting somewhere. I NEVER hit the Dilithium refinement limit. Not that I can't, but because I only have so much time to play and I don't enjoy many of those activities that enable one to farm Dilithium efficiently. The new IOR will finally put the refinement limit occasionally within my reach by playing the kind of content I really enjoy.
At the same time, the game mechanics need to be adjusted somehow to discourage the kind of player behavior that makes these exploits "profitable" (AFK's and farming).
Taking away the "timid creature" behavior was a mistake. Instead, Cryptic should have kept the behavior but found a way to make it unprofitable so that it doesn't hurt their monetization. They needed to remove the drops. I understand that wasn't going to be easy to do and that they needed a quick-fix. But their quick-fix ought to be temporary, not a permanent solution.
I don't get why people are confused over what defines an exploit, an exploit is something that breaks the Risk/Reward curve and/or Time/Reward curve.
At it's simplest level, clickies didn't just break these curves, it shattered them, 1440 Dilithium and 50 Fleet Marks for less than 5 minutes work with zero risk. Definitely an exploit and Cryptic should have acted sooner to fix it.
The recent changes to timid mobs, this might not have broken the time/reward curve, but it certainly shattered the risk/reward curve. 960 Dilithium, 50 Fleet Marks item drops and XP with Zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes.
Quoted for truth. Rewards have to reasonably scale for every type of content there is. Otherwise, there will always be exploits on the one hand and missions that don't satisfy on the other.
For Foundry authors, something that will go a long, long way to restoring the sense of satisfaction that rewards the many hours it takes to build a mission is to fix the Rating and Review system and bring it in line with the kind of content that Cryptic wants to promote.
The Foundry is all about the ability to place yourself into the Trek universe and make it come alive. Cryptic should not lose sight of that.
Some people use the Foundry as a way to test builds, or earn accolades, or to grind resources. While these are legitimate uses for it, I think that it is not the optimal tool for this.
I think what Cryptic should consider is a separate Scenario-Builder that strips out some of the complexity of the Foundry. Something that's less than a full-blown story creator, but allows someone to set up a single map with a customizable combat scenario. Something that could be generated in less than an hour of work.
It could be more restrictive in terms of things that could cause exploits while at the same time being so much easier to use and giving enough rewards to make it worthwhile that people who are interested in testing builds or grinding will naturally prefer to use that instead of the Foundry.
The killer feature of a Scenario Builder could be that it could be used to create PvP scenarios as well as Team and Solo PvE. That would be plenty of reason to develop it. Even better if the combat scenarios created could be imported into the Foundry for further customization.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Simpler than a scenario builder. Just a MISSION. Doable in fifteen minutes. Pick your enemy. Defeat them. Collect 10% more rewards than the Foundry wrapper but doesn't count towards Foundry rep, obviously.
The core problem is that grinders gravitate to the best rewards. If something else had 10% better rewards, they'd leave the Foundry alone until they decided they wanted story.
Then make sure any Foundry rep system awards cosmetic, story, and lore stuff that people who like story would value.
You might still see novel encounter Foundry grinders (tricky simulated boss fights for people who like that) but no "baseline" grinders.
The problem isn't so much that the Foundry has rewards but that other gameplay types don't have similar rewards. So they're trying to cram in here rather than do what they enjoy.
The problem isn't so much that the Foundry has rewards but that other gameplay types don't have similar rewards. So they're trying to cram in here rather than do what they enjoy.
As I stated earlier in the day, 8out of 10 of the top 10 missions right now are "story." (with the two combat missions being blowing up ships, which is inarguably the best part of STO)
Why is this problematic? It seems the samearguments from two weeks ago are being used, but the data has changed. Is 10/10 the only acceptable solution? Or can others play with thefoundry?
IThe thing is, the Foundry is WORK. A LOT of work. Decent maps take many, many hours to construct even for the most basic stories. I'm sure the Devs can relate to this. But time spent creating story content in the Foundry is time that the Author is not earning any rewards in the game. I'd bet very few Foundry authors make anywhere near the "tips" that reward them for time spent.
So what's left? The only reward left is satisfaction. But that feeling of satisfaction is bound to sour when the author realizes that not only is he not getting in-game rewards for creating Foundry content, but his work is getting low ratings because it doesn't fuel the grind machine. Of course these Foundry authors consider the rating system to be broken.
Now add in the fact that the fix for the timid creature exploit actually broke a bunch of missions that relied on that behavior to set up their story. Sure Foundry authors are frustrated -- understandably so. Questioning whether it's actually worth the time investment is equally understandable.
I'll just cherry pick this part since it was in response to me and I pretty much agree with the all of your post anyway.:)
I understand that it is a lot of effort; no problem there. I also understand the frustrations you are describing.
When I commented about "work", it was contrasting "task" with "hobby." Both require a *lot* of effort if you want to excel at them, but since this is not a paying job, people should be writing Foundry missions because it's something they enjoy doing.
Right now, I am still finding and playing story missions in the Foundry, because I want to. If players really want to, the grinders and such will not stop them. The audience is still there. However, we should continue to push for a better interface and exploit resolution to enhance the intended functionality of the Foundry.
As I stated earlier in the day, 8out of 10 of the top 10 missions right now are "story." (with the two combat missions being blowing up ships, which is inarguably the best part of STO)
Why is this problematic? It seems the samearguments from two weeks ago are being used, but the data has changed. Is 10/10 the only acceptable solution? Or can others play with thefoundry?
The authors are treating us the same way they treat Kestrel. Go to any of their non-official websites and you will see them ranting about her stories and how they're not sure if they should wrap them up or go back in time and undo them completely. She got their job, they all want to write for STO. Kirkfat had some notorious threads in these forums about whether there was even a story at all.
Since Kestrel got the job, and they can't have it, they now have the foundry to make their case. Once their list got cluttered they felt they were losing that chance too. If they managed to eradicate all others from the foundry they'd likely start eating their own. Pure Ego.
It's amusing in a sad way that even when they hold out an olive branch it comes simultaneously with condemnation and a description of how others are unable to understand and appreciate art due to being driven by their "reptilian lower brains". The talk of award types grinders wouldn't want or eliminating part of the tool-set because we're less deserving is indicative of this superiority they feel.
I suggest Kestrel gets to pick any stories worthy of spotlighting from now on, and she deserves a raise for all the bad publicity these divas have given her.
The authors are treating us the same way they treat Kestrel. Go to any of their non-official websites and you will see them ranting about her stories and how they're not sure if they should wrap them up or go back in time and undo them completely. She got their job, they all want to write for STO. Kirkfat had some notorious threads in these forums about whether there was even a story at all.
Since Kestrel got the job, and they can't have it, they now have the foundry to make their case. Once their list got cluttered they felt they were losing that chance too. If they managed to eradicate all others from the foundry they'd likely start eating their own. Pure Ego.
It's amusing in a sad way that even when they hold out an olive branch it comes simultaneously with condemnation and a description of how others are unable to understand and appreciate art due to being driven by their "reptilian lower brains". The talk of award types grinders wouldn't want or eliminating part of the tool-set because we're less deserving is indicative of this superiority they feel.
I suggest Kestrel gets to pick any stories worthy of spotlighting from now on, and she deserves a raise for all the bad publicity these divas have given her.
Don't be so quick to throw all the Foundry story authors into the fire with Kestrel. I for one have no issues with the writing that Kestrel does for STO. I think she does a fine job with it.
Having said that, I do enjoy making my own missions, and adding my own stories to STO via the Foundry. Much like Kestrel, we also get belittled in reviews by many a player of our missions. It really boils down to the old saying, "You cant make everyone happy."
What really matters to me is that my missions get played, and hopefully someone gets some enjoyment out of the story I told. It kind of brings it full circle, and all my hard work on the mission is appreciated.
I would like however, like many have mentioned previously a way to filter out the grinder missions and tweak the rewards so that the story missions like mine have a better chance of being played, other than to farm the daily. I don't want to force anyone to play it, but it would be nice for people who like story missions to be able to better find them and be rewarded for their time.
Let's face it. If the Foundry went back to the rewards it had before, you'd be out of here in a split second AT. You're only trying to defend an easy (quasi-exploitive) way to grind.
Don't believe me? Where were all your posts supporting Foundry use in this section prior to "Grind-gate"?
I have short bursts of time to play. Prior to the lastIOR change there was only long missions of dubious quality to choose from. and I'm not goingto waste my time on a chance. Plus giventhe attitudes of the authors on display lately, Iwouldnt givethem the time of day.
Now that peopleare making short adventures I can use the foundry. Myplaystyle is being serviced and it makes me happy. And the "ginders" I play have stories. You should try the mugato one.
However let's give it another month to see how people settle into a routine before we make a judgement on FED or KDF sides.
Sheer economicsof fame and glory. Fed has the sheer numbersof audience, more are going to write for them. Plus its theKDF. We're best at blowing *** up.
Even Worf's "foundry mission" in the holodeck was a "grinder." I'm sure Wesley and Pulaski tried to get him banned several times for it.
I don't think this thread is about Kestrel, or even all about egos. I think an adversarial tone on either side is doing the entire Community a massive disservice here. And to be honest, responses like this severely tempt me to put on my Moderator hat.
This thread is about two basic questions:
1. What does the STO Player Community, as a whole, want out of the Foundry?
2. What does Cryptic want out of the Foundry?
Number one can be further broken down into some basic categories:
A. What do Foundry authors want out of the Foundry?
B. What do Trek fans want out of the Foundry?
C. What do Gamers want out of the Foundry?
Most people here are going to fit into more than one of those roles and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Foundry authors want a robust toolset, the ability to make their stories come to life, and to attract people to play their missions.
Trek fans want an immersive Star Trek experience.
Gamers want solid gameplay and good rewards for playing.
And yes, every one of those roles tends to attract people who are picky about what they like and don't like. That, sometimes, can feel mutually exclusive. But it doesn't have to be that way.
Apart from what WE all want from the Foundry, there's still Cryptic and PWE to consider. They have their own agenda. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to what the Community wants, either, but it can be.
Case in point are the clickies and the timid creature exploit. Anyone who believes Cryptic pulled the plug on those because a handful of Foundry authors whined for attention is badly mistaken in my opinion. These exploits created situations that allowed players to obtain disproportionate rewards in a way that was never intended by Cryptic. As soon as they became aware of it, they had to find a way to stop it. Fact, case closed.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I don't think this thread is about Kestrel, or even all about egos. I think an adversarial tone on either side is doing the entire Community a massive disservice here. And to be honest, responses like this severely tempt me to put on my Moderator hat.
I agree with the rest of your posting, but ego does factor here. If a stink was notraised (redacted), most people are just content to liveand let live - do our thing and be onour way. Im here because opportunity to return to STO was opened and nowwhat I like is under attack.
This is a problem that solves itself with the addition of a source of Fleet Marks comparable to this Foundry "exploit." :rolleyes: Doesn't even have to include dilithium if that's a deal-killer for some reason.
10-15 minutes tops, guaranteed minimum 50 Marks before any boosts. Something similar to a Borg red alert, if not those missions themselves. Then remove "Investigate Officer Reports" entirely and let the Foundry devolve into the insular den of pretentious art house elitism some authors apparently want it to be. Just don't complain when it also becomes a ghost town.
1. What does the STO Player Community, as a whole, want out of the Foundry?
2. What does Cryptic want out of the Foundry?
Number one can be further broken down into some basic categories:
A. What do Foundry authors want out of the Foundry?
B. What do Trek fans want out of the Foundry?
C. What do Gamers want out of the Foundry?
{snip}
I very much agree with Bluegeek's post. As for me, being a Foundry Author, I would really like to see some more robust tools, such as search, and tagging. I truly believe that if those tools existed players could better find the kinds of missions they want to play, and those of use who write story missions can have our missions played. Just lumping all the missions together and ranking them with star's doesn't really do the whole system justice.
As a Trek fan, I want to see story content. I want to see what other stories people have come up with that puts me in the captains chair. I always like to play missions with some good story, and Foundry trickery to see how other authors would have done things. Anything that feels to me like an actual episode of Star Trek is a plus in my book.
As a Gamer, I want to be rewarded for my time and effort. If I spend a hour playing a Foundry mission I should be rewarded. I believe that a mission that takes an hour to play shouldn't be rewarded the same as one that takes under a half hour. I also believe that missions of higher quality should be rewarded as well as some of the other missions in the game.
That's just my thoughts on the questions purposed, and I think if everyone could answer these questions in a civilized manor, we can get a better idea of how to address the real issues.
I agree with the rest of your posting, but ego does factor here. If a stink was notraised (redacted), most people are just content to liveand let live - do our thing and be onour way. Im here because opportunity to return to STO was opened and nowwhat I like is under attack.
I don't dispute that egos are involved. I contend that ego has no place in this discussion. Nor is an adversarial tone going to be constructive.
A contributing factor that led up to this sometimes heated debate is the fact that the gateway to Foundry content is flawed:
1. The Rating and Review system is open to abuse and has been abused.
2. The ability to find content based on personal interest is very limited and the misuse of the Rating system makes this even more difficult.
Long before clickies were ever an issue, even before the IOR had been implemented, back when the Foundry was still in its' infancy, Foundry authors have long maintained that there is a problem with how Foundry content is rated, searched, and promoted.
I think the Foundry needs better ways to categorize, or tag, missions and the ability to search on those tags. It needs a way to display average play times, whether it includes combat encounters, and even the number of map transitions needed for completion. That kind of thing will help.
And across the whole game, rewarding players based on specific kinds of activity rather than how many times they click or solely based on how much time they spend doing them will also help. This is going to be hard to do and Cryptic may never have the ability to do this. They have to reduce or eliminate rewards for AFK, for one thing.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
That would be Spotlight, wouldn't it? The thing that always being pushed and in-game?
Sure. I think the system could be tweaked a little itself, but that could certainly be the medium to get that. I'd really like to see some of the lesser known authors who have made some good missions featured. Seems just the big name authors get all the spotlight so to speak. Not that their missions are bad, they should be featured, but everyone already know's their missions are good.
I was thinking the drops would be allotments that the mission could award, be it NPC's killed in mission or a loot bag on completion, but with author control of killable NPC's they could choose when the appropriate time the award would be given, else the mission gets a lower player rating, or (gasp) flagged for not awarding whats expected.
It's an interesting idea, but based on what Cryptic has said about how drops work, it seems unlikely. Probably the closest that would be likely would be removing drops from foundry missions, but having the wrapper reward level-appropriate item boxes. (Or however the "level appropriate item" thing works, if there's no boxes involved.)
Actually, as a matter of fact with the way the UI current works, we're actually seeing a theft of our previous audience. The current structure of the UI means that the grind missions bury everything else, and it makes it harder for those who enjoy stories to find them. Too few actually understand the search option, and if they do, what will they search for? Unless they've played Foundry missions before and memorized some of their favorite authors they'll have no idea where to start.
I find sliding the bar down a ways and looking for an interesting sounding title works pretty well.
I'm just not sure what to make of this "theft" claim. Are you really saying that people who went into the foundry wanting story missions will end up playing grinder missions instead? Can they not tell the difference? That doesn't sound like you think very highly of your audience. Is it really that unlikely that most of the people playing grinders were (given the current wrapper design) never going to play any other type of mission in the first place?
The recent changes to timid mobs, this might not have broken the time/reward curve, but it certainly shattered the risk/reward curve. 960 Dilithium, 50 Fleet Marks item drops and XP with Zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes. Exploit.
... You can still get the IOR rewards with zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes. If Cryptic thought that was an exploit, the timid change didn't do anything about it. (And since the 15 minute mark was set by them, that's not surprising.) Capping loot drops doesn't take that much longer.
The entire problem with trying to apply the concept of risk/reward here is that for someone playing on normal difficulty, the only risk is that something will take longer to complete. (Well, or that one will run into something completely impossible, but how often does that happen in the foundry?) That's why it's not surprising that all the limits we've seen are based on controlling time/reward. To control on risk/reward, you've got to actually have content that's risky and this game doesn't.
(Let me just emphasize that again - if I were using your standards, I would have to consider everything I've ever done in the game an exploit, including official episodes, because none of it has serious risk.)
You can disagree all you want, but *every* MMO developer disagrees with you -- and they get to make the rules.
I take it you don't know any MMO developers?
Seriously, the stuff you're talking about is not typically called "exploit". It's called "balance issues". And them coming up is a natural part of an MMO's lifecycle, for the simple reason that running one is effectively crowdsourcing the question of "what is the most efficient way to do anything in this game?" And if something works too well, yeah, it gets adjusted. If something doesn't work well enough, sometimes that gets adjusted too. But they aren't exploits. Exploits are the things that get people banned, or at least a stern talking to from a GM or something?
Anyone gotten banned for using grinders? I sure haven't heard of any. They didn't even delete the missions full of quantum stockpiled battleships, although many have been removed by their authors. Sure doesn't look like they considered it an exploit to me.
Seriously, the stuff you're talking about is not typically called "exploit". It's called "balance issues". And them coming up is a natural part of an MMO's lifecycle, for the simple reason that running one is effectively crowdsourcing the question of "what is the most efficient way to do anything in this game?" And if something works too well, yeah, it gets adjusted. If something doesn't work well enough, sometimes that gets adjusted too. But they aren't exploits. Exploits are the things that get people banned, or at least a stern talking to from a GM or something?
Anyone gotten banned for using grinders? I sure haven't heard of any. They didn't even delete the missions full of quantum stockpiled battleships, although many have been removed by their authors. Sure doesn't look like they considered it an exploit to me.
-Morgan.
I'm related to a content designer for another major MMO. I've also seen these exact same threads on at least three other boards. When players find ways around the system to gain extreme rewards with little effort, those MMO devs call them exploits, not balance issues.
See how similar uses of the CoH mission architect for powerleveling, etc., worked out. Nobody TRIBBLE anything, they exploited existing systems in ways that were not intended by the designers. They ended up with mass bannings -- AFTER being warned about it.
Cryptic didn't warn, they just tried adjusting they system first and telling us that those things were not intended.
The authors are treating us the same way they treat Kestrel. Go to any of their non-official websites and you will see them ranting about her stories and how they're not sure if they should wrap them up or go back in time and undo them completely. She got their job, they all want to write for STO. Kirkfat had some notorious threads in these forums about whether there was even a story at all.
Since Kestrel got the job, and they can't have it, they now have the foundry to make their case. Once their list got cluttered they felt they were losing that chance too. If they managed to eradicate all others from the foundry they'd likely start eating their own. Pure Ego.
It's amusing in a sad way that even when they hold out an olive branch it comes simultaneously with condemnation and a description of how others are unable to understand and appreciate art due to being driven by their "reptilian lower brains". The talk of award types grinders wouldn't want or eliminating part of the tool-set because we're less deserving is indicative of this superiority they feel.
I suggest Kestrel gets to pick any stories worthy of spotlighting from now on, and she deserves a raise for all the bad publicity these divas have given her.
I'm with Drudgy.... What??? I have never heard any of this before.
Comments
As a froundry player, yes I do think they are legit foundry missions.
How I spend my time in game is between me and cryptic. In the great grind that is the end game in any MMO everything breaks down to either a time sink or a currency sink.
Earning it? what a laugh, like this game is hard work. I earn it by investing my time in it, much like choosing which doff missions to run.
So far in this thread I've heard about how many hours an author put into creating their mission, and how they feel entitled by that investment in time. What about the people running the foundry missions, are they not equally entitled by how much time they invest in the foundry?
So again it all breaks down to a time investment. If I can build a boff team (not that its hard) that can complete a mission for me, why not? Its not like thats all we who grind the foundry do, of course we get bored with it after a while and do something else. I for one go on to play other foundry missions.
As far as the rewards go, I really couldn't care less about the drops I just want to get the wrapper done every half hour for the dilithium and especially the fleet marks, as it was intended when cryptic made IOR repeatable every 30 minutes.
So there's my two zen, tear me apart over it.
If you take away the Dil and Fleet marks our foundry will go back to being a seldom used tool in STO.
At it's simplest level, clickies didn't just break these curves, it shattered them, 1440 Dilithium and 50 Fleet Marks for less than 5 minutes work with zero risk. Definitely an exploit and Cryptic should have acted sooner to fix it.
The recent changes to timid mobs, this might not have broken the time/reward curve, but it certainly shattered the risk/reward curve. 960 Dilithium, 50 Fleet Marks item drops and XP with Zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes. Exploit.
Those who are about to point out the contraband and other DOFF missions that earn masses of Dilithium for zero risk keep reading, how much time does it take to gather the materials and then run the mission. You could be looking at up to 2 days wait for 2000 Dilithium. These are permitted because it takes a lot longer to earn 2000 Dilithium this way than say, running 2 eSTFs.
Remember, for it not to be an exploit you need to either face high risk in a short time or low risk over a longer time.
If it takes you that long, youre doing it wrong.
On a side note, how do YOU get 5 contraband for the turn-in in 30 mins?
My character Tsin'xing
When Icared moreabout the game and was deply invested -- once you get past the startup time you can cycle pretty well. Though I stopped withthat when season 7 hit cause I quit -- I could be wrong it could have been nerfed along with everything else and made more trouble than it was worth.
You can just run an stf in 15 minutes and get half that or do a foundry mission that takes 15 minutes. There is certainly other content in this game that rewards things similarly to the foundry right now. There is not a lot of risk in an STF... so you die and respawn woohoo there is no risk/reward there either. You could be even worse and go AFK while your teammates do the work... this to me is where Cryptic should focus their efforts in fixing problems. AFK in general is problem throughout this entire game. At least if you AFK in a foundry mission it doesn't affect others like in a fleet mission or STF which both by the way reward just as good as the IOR wrapper for time invested. I complete fleet missions in under 15 minutes with a 30 minute cooldown and most STFs can be done in 15 or 20 minutes. So where is the exploit again? Rewards and time/risk involved looks the same to me and AFK happens on both sides of the fence here.
Actually if youare flagged afk in a Foundry mission when it ends, you autofail IOR and all that time spent goes down the drain.
You can disagree all you want, but *every* MMO developer disagrees with you -- and they get to make the rules.
It is against their business interest for players to find flaws in their system and circumvent the time/risk/reward standards they expect to pace gameplay. When a such flaw is found and exploited, that's when the devs crack down and try to eliminate the flaw.
Exploiting a weakness in design is still an exploit. It has nothing to do with hacking code or anything else, just finding in-game design flaws and exploiting them to "game the system" as it were.
There is no way a dev team working with such complex code and gameplay mechanics can anticipate every possible weakness in their system. When they find them, they close them.
If you step back in, in time, it completes
I think this quote is important and I think it illustrates a basic problem that encompasses more than just the story.
I think the economy has gotten so much emphasis recently that gameplay as a whole has taken a backseat to the game economy. I think Cryptic really needs to consider whether that's what they want Star Trek Online to be.
I know that they need to monetize the game somehow and that the Dilithium economy was created to do that. The problem is that people are beginning to feel that they HAVE to grind EVERYTHING -- EC's, DOFFs, Commodities, Dilithium, Marks -- in order to feel that they are getting rewarded for playing the game.
This just reinforces my point.
The thing is, the Foundry is WORK. A LOT of work. Decent maps take many, many hours to construct even for the most basic stories. I'm sure the Devs can relate to this. But time spent creating story content in the Foundry is time that the Author is not earning any rewards in the game. I'd bet very few Foundry authors make anywhere near the "tips" that reward them for time spent.
So what's left? The only reward left is satisfaction. But that feeling of satisfaction is bound to sour when the author realizes that not only is he not getting in-game rewards for creating Foundry content, but his work is getting low ratings because it doesn't fuel the grind machine. Of course these Foundry authors consider the rating system to be broken.
Now add in the fact that the fix for the timid creature exploit actually broke a bunch of missions that relied on that behavior to set up their story. Sure Foundry authors are frustrated -- understandably so. Questioning whether it's actually worth the time investment is equally understandable.
Cryptic can't allow things like clickies and loot collectors to stand because it affects their bottom line. But removing rewards altogether is the wrong answer, too.
Remember, the IOR was originally created because Foundry authors asked for a way to reward players for playing their content. IOR was Cryptic's response and at that time it was probably a good workaround. In some ways, it still is. But ultimately the answer is that rewards need to be content-driven and not simply time-gated. Time spent has to be a part of that equation, but when it's the only part? Ungood.
The challenge, of course, is how to identify the difference between player activity that should get rewarded in a certain way and content that games the mechanics to turn the Foundry into a kind of vending machine.
Again, I'm not sure that the problem is so much that playing the Foundry is rewarded, but that people feel that they can't earn enough rewards playing the game in the way it was intended in order to feel satisfied that they made progress.
In my opinion, the game economy is out-of-whack and needs to be readjusted somehow so that players with limited play time can feel as if they're getting somewhere. I NEVER hit the Dilithium refinement limit. Not that I can't, but because I only have so much time to play and I don't enjoy many of those activities that enable one to farm Dilithium efficiently. The new IOR will finally put the refinement limit occasionally within my reach by playing the kind of content I really enjoy.
At the same time, the game mechanics need to be adjusted somehow to discourage the kind of player behavior that makes these exploits "profitable" (AFK's and farming).
Taking away the "timid creature" behavior was a mistake. Instead, Cryptic should have kept the behavior but found a way to make it unprofitable so that it doesn't hurt their monetization. They needed to remove the drops. I understand that wasn't going to be easy to do and that they needed a quick-fix. But their quick-fix ought to be temporary, not a permanent solution.
Quoted for truth. Rewards have to reasonably scale for every type of content there is. Otherwise, there will always be exploits on the one hand and missions that don't satisfy on the other.
For Foundry authors, something that will go a long, long way to restoring the sense of satisfaction that rewards the many hours it takes to build a mission is to fix the Rating and Review system and bring it in line with the kind of content that Cryptic wants to promote.
The Foundry is all about the ability to place yourself into the Trek universe and make it come alive. Cryptic should not lose sight of that.
Some people use the Foundry as a way to test builds, or earn accolades, or to grind resources. While these are legitimate uses for it, I think that it is not the optimal tool for this.
I think what Cryptic should consider is a separate Scenario-Builder that strips out some of the complexity of the Foundry. Something that's less than a full-blown story creator, but allows someone to set up a single map with a customizable combat scenario. Something that could be generated in less than an hour of work.
It could be more restrictive in terms of things that could cause exploits while at the same time being so much easier to use and giving enough rewards to make it worthwhile that people who are interested in testing builds or grinding will naturally prefer to use that instead of the Foundry.
The killer feature of a Scenario Builder could be that it could be used to create PvP scenarios as well as Team and Solo PvE. That would be plenty of reason to develop it. Even better if the combat scenarios created could be imported into the Foundry for further customization.
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The core problem is that grinders gravitate to the best rewards. If something else had 10% better rewards, they'd leave the Foundry alone until they decided they wanted story.
Then make sure any Foundry rep system awards cosmetic, story, and lore stuff that people who like story would value.
You might still see novel encounter Foundry grinders (tricky simulated boss fights for people who like that) but no "baseline" grinders.
The problem isn't so much that the Foundry has rewards but that other gameplay types don't have similar rewards. So they're trying to cram in here rather than do what they enjoy.
As I stated earlier in the day, 8out of 10 of the top 10 missions right now are "story." (with the two combat missions being blowing up ships, which is inarguably the best part of STO)
Why is this problematic? It seems the samearguments from two weeks ago are being used, but the data has changed. Is 10/10 the only acceptable solution? Or can others play with thefoundry?
I'll just cherry pick this part since it was in response to me and I pretty much agree with the all of your post anyway.:)
I understand that it is a lot of effort; no problem there. I also understand the frustrations you are describing.
When I commented about "work", it was contrasting "task" with "hobby." Both require a *lot* of effort if you want to excel at them, but since this is not a paying job, people should be writing Foundry missions because it's something they enjoy doing.
Right now, I am still finding and playing story missions in the Foundry, because I want to. If players really want to, the grinders and such will not stop them. The audience is still there. However, we should continue to push for a better interface and exploit resolution to enhance the intended functionality of the Foundry.
The authors are treating us the same way they treat Kestrel. Go to any of their non-official websites and you will see them ranting about her stories and how they're not sure if they should wrap them up or go back in time and undo them completely. She got their job, they all want to write for STO. Kirkfat had some notorious threads in these forums about whether there was even a story at all.
Since Kestrel got the job, and they can't have it, they now have the foundry to make their case. Once their list got cluttered they felt they were losing that chance too. If they managed to eradicate all others from the foundry they'd likely start eating their own. Pure Ego.
It's amusing in a sad way that even when they hold out an olive branch it comes simultaneously with condemnation and a description of how others are unable to understand and appreciate art due to being driven by their "reptilian lower brains". The talk of award types grinders wouldn't want or eliminating part of the tool-set because we're less deserving is indicative of this superiority they feel.
I suggest Kestrel gets to pick any stories worthy of spotlighting from now on, and she deserves a raise for all the bad publicity these divas have given her.
KDF is still very much dominated by Grinders.
However let's give it another month to see how people settle into a routine before we make a judgement on FED or KDF sides.
Don't be so quick to throw all the Foundry story authors into the fire with Kestrel. I for one have no issues with the writing that Kestrel does for STO. I think she does a fine job with it.
Having said that, I do enjoy making my own missions, and adding my own stories to STO via the Foundry. Much like Kestrel, we also get belittled in reviews by many a player of our missions. It really boils down to the old saying, "You cant make everyone happy."
What really matters to me is that my missions get played, and hopefully someone gets some enjoyment out of the story I told. It kind of brings it full circle, and all my hard work on the mission is appreciated.
I would like however, like many have mentioned previously a way to filter out the grinder missions and tweak the rewards so that the story missions like mine have a better chance of being played, other than to farm the daily. I don't want to force anyone to play it, but it would be nice for people who like story missions to be able to better find them and be rewarded for their time.
I have short bursts of time to play. Prior to the lastIOR change there was only long missions of dubious quality to choose from. and I'm not goingto waste my time on a chance. Plus giventhe attitudes of the authors on display lately, Iwouldnt givethem the time of day.
Now that peopleare making short adventures I can use the foundry. Myplaystyle is being serviced and it makes me happy. And the "ginders" I play have stories. You should try the mugato one.
Sheer economicsof fame and glory. Fed has the sheer numbersof audience, more are going to write for them. Plus its theKDF. We're best at blowing *** up.
Even Worf's "foundry mission" in the holodeck was a "grinder." I'm sure Wesley and Pulaski tried to get him banned several times for it.
I don't think this thread is about Kestrel, or even all about egos. I think an adversarial tone on either side is doing the entire Community a massive disservice here. And to be honest, responses like this severely tempt me to put on my Moderator hat.
This thread is about two basic questions:
1. What does the STO Player Community, as a whole, want out of the Foundry?
2. What does Cryptic want out of the Foundry?
Number one can be further broken down into some basic categories:
A. What do Foundry authors want out of the Foundry?
B. What do Trek fans want out of the Foundry?
C. What do Gamers want out of the Foundry?
Most people here are going to fit into more than one of those roles and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Foundry authors want a robust toolset, the ability to make their stories come to life, and to attract people to play their missions.
Trek fans want an immersive Star Trek experience.
Gamers want solid gameplay and good rewards for playing.
And yes, every one of those roles tends to attract people who are picky about what they like and don't like. That, sometimes, can feel mutually exclusive. But it doesn't have to be that way.
Apart from what WE all want from the Foundry, there's still Cryptic and PWE to consider. They have their own agenda. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to what the Community wants, either, but it can be.
Case in point are the clickies and the timid creature exploit. Anyone who believes Cryptic pulled the plug on those because a handful of Foundry authors whined for attention is badly mistaken in my opinion. These exploits created situations that allowed players to obtain disproportionate rewards in a way that was never intended by Cryptic. As soon as they became aware of it, they had to find a way to stop it. Fact, case closed.
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I agree with the rest of your posting, but ego does factor here. If a stink was notraised (redacted), most people are just content to liveand let live - do our thing and be onour way. Im here because opportunity to return to STO was opened and nowwhat I like is under attack.
10-15 minutes tops, guaranteed minimum 50 Marks before any boosts. Something similar to a Borg red alert, if not those missions themselves. Then remove "Investigate Officer Reports" entirely and let the Foundry devolve into the insular den of pretentious art house elitism some authors apparently want it to be. Just don't complain when it also becomes a ghost town.
I very much agree with Bluegeek's post. As for me, being a Foundry Author, I would really like to see some more robust tools, such as search, and tagging. I truly believe that if those tools existed players could better find the kinds of missions they want to play, and those of use who write story missions can have our missions played. Just lumping all the missions together and ranking them with star's doesn't really do the whole system justice.
As a Trek fan, I want to see story content. I want to see what other stories people have come up with that puts me in the captains chair. I always like to play missions with some good story, and Foundry trickery to see how other authors would have done things. Anything that feels to me like an actual episode of Star Trek is a plus in my book.
As a Gamer, I want to be rewarded for my time and effort. If I spend a hour playing a Foundry mission I should be rewarded. I believe that a mission that takes an hour to play shouldn't be rewarded the same as one that takes under a half hour. I also believe that missions of higher quality should be rewarded as well as some of the other missions in the game.
That's just my thoughts on the questions purposed, and I think if everyone could answer these questions in a civilized manor, we can get a better idea of how to address the real issues.
That would be Spotlight, wouldn't it? The thing that always being pushed and in-game?
I don't dispute that egos are involved. I contend that ego has no place in this discussion. Nor is an adversarial tone going to be constructive.
A contributing factor that led up to this sometimes heated debate is the fact that the gateway to Foundry content is flawed:
1. The Rating and Review system is open to abuse and has been abused.
2. The ability to find content based on personal interest is very limited and the misuse of the Rating system makes this even more difficult.
Long before clickies were ever an issue, even before the IOR had been implemented, back when the Foundry was still in its' infancy, Foundry authors have long maintained that there is a problem with how Foundry content is rated, searched, and promoted.
I think the Foundry needs better ways to categorize, or tag, missions and the ability to search on those tags. It needs a way to display average play times, whether it includes combat encounters, and even the number of map transitions needed for completion. That kind of thing will help.
And across the whole game, rewarding players based on specific kinds of activity rather than how many times they click or solely based on how much time they spend doing them will also help. This is going to be hard to do and Cryptic may never have the ability to do this. They have to reduce or eliminate rewards for AFK, for one thing.
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Sure. I think the system could be tweaked a little itself, but that could certainly be the medium to get that. I'd really like to see some of the lesser known authors who have made some good missions featured. Seems just the big name authors get all the spotlight so to speak.
It's an interesting idea, but based on what Cryptic has said about how drops work, it seems unlikely. Probably the closest that would be likely would be removing drops from foundry missions, but having the wrapper reward level-appropriate item boxes. (Or however the "level appropriate item" thing works, if there's no boxes involved.)
I find sliding the bar down a ways and looking for an interesting sounding title works pretty well.
I'm just not sure what to make of this "theft" claim. Are you really saying that people who went into the foundry wanting story missions will end up playing grinder missions instead? Can they not tell the difference? That doesn't sound like you think very highly of your audience. Is it really that unlikely that most of the people playing grinders were (given the current wrapper design) never going to play any other type of mission in the first place?
... You can still get the IOR rewards with zero risk to yourself in 15 minutes. If Cryptic thought that was an exploit, the timid change didn't do anything about it. (And since the 15 minute mark was set by them, that's not surprising.) Capping loot drops doesn't take that much longer.
The entire problem with trying to apply the concept of risk/reward here is that for someone playing on normal difficulty, the only risk is that something will take longer to complete. (Well, or that one will run into something completely impossible, but how often does that happen in the foundry?) That's why it's not surprising that all the limits we've seen are based on controlling time/reward. To control on risk/reward, you've got to actually have content that's risky and this game doesn't.
(Let me just emphasize that again - if I were using your standards, I would have to consider everything I've ever done in the game an exploit, including official episodes, because none of it has serious risk.)
I take it you don't know any MMO developers?
Seriously, the stuff you're talking about is not typically called "exploit". It's called "balance issues". And them coming up is a natural part of an MMO's lifecycle, for the simple reason that running one is effectively crowdsourcing the question of "what is the most efficient way to do anything in this game?" And if something works too well, yeah, it gets adjusted. If something doesn't work well enough, sometimes that gets adjusted too. But they aren't exploits. Exploits are the things that get people banned, or at least a stern talking to from a GM or something?
Anyone gotten banned for using grinders? I sure haven't heard of any. They didn't even delete the missions full of quantum stockpiled battleships, although many have been removed by their authors. Sure doesn't look like they considered it an exploit to me.
-Morgan.
I'm related to a content designer for another major MMO. I've also seen these exact same threads on at least three other boards. When players find ways around the system to gain extreme rewards with little effort, those MMO devs call them exploits, not balance issues.
See how similar uses of the CoH mission architect for powerleveling, etc., worked out. Nobody TRIBBLE anything, they exploited existing systems in ways that were not intended by the designers. They ended up with mass bannings -- AFTER being warned about it.
Cryptic didn't warn, they just tried adjusting they system first and telling us that those things were not intended.
My character Tsin'xing