Personally, this relates to theft on Perfect Worlds part... Yes a project is time limited and can be understood by players, but when filling this project with anything that has cost real money and then saying that will not be compensated elsewhere is theft.
Imagine going to a car dealership and agreeing to purchase a new car, you sign the deal, pick the appropriate payment method and know you have a 6-14 week delivery while they build it, you have either paid up in full or start weekly payments... then the dealership turn around and say, sorry that car has been taken out of production now, it was only a short term production and your car wont be complete in time... you wont get a refund...
It would never happen!
A project once started should be allowed to finish... and no future ones started, or the funds inputted should be diverted elsewhere to other ongoing projects or converted to a usable means (ie dilithium) and put into a fleet pot to be used on another project (but not withdrawn from the fleet contribution system) and thus Perfect World not loosing any precious finances and users not losing their financial commitment to the game/project.
To turn around and say yeah but you got fleet credits so you can keep them is poor substitute, i can imagine the reason they are being left is only because it would be too hard to modify everyone's account to remove them!
Haven't really paid attention to the market recently. As someone who might possibly have a few hundred ornaments sitting in their bank, what would be a fair price to offer to fleets at this point?
They're going generally for the same cost they were during the last few days of the event. Most of them are still under 10k.
Bajoran Gratitude Beads are the big exception, running around 100,000, but it was also the rare item in it. Of course the rarity disparity is really a problem with how they built that task. And honestly, I imagine most folks are going to looking at the grat beads first, since that's what they really need.
Personally, this relates to theft on Perfect Worlds part... Yes a project is time limited and can be understood by players, but when filling this project with anything that has cost real money and then saying that will not be compensated elsewhere is theft.
Imagine going to a car dealership and agreeing to purchase a new car, you sign the deal, pick the appropriate payment method and know you have a 6-14 week delivery while they build it, you have either paid up in full or start weekly payments... then the dealership turn around and say, sorry that car has been taken out of production now, it was only a short term production and your car wont be complete in time... you wont get a refund...
It would never happen!
A project once started should be allowed to finish... and no future ones started, or the funds inputted should be diverted elsewhere to other ongoing projects or converted to a usable means (ie dilithium) and put into a fleet pot to be used on another project (but not withdrawn from the fleet contribution system) and thus Perfect World not loosing any precious finances and users not losing their financial commitment to the game/project.
To turn around and say yeah but you got fleet credits so you can keep them is poor substitute, i can imagine the reason they are being left is only because it would be too hard to modify everyone's account to remove them!
So last I checked, the holiday ornaments didn't cost any money, and the only even arguable way you could spend money to get them would be spending Lobi, and for what they gave that seemed a little silly.
Second, unlike the seeming popular opinion of the forums, not every action that PWE or cryptic undertakes in the game is tantamount to theft. I assume there is no system in place to keep track of what each fleet individual contributes to a project in hindsight, because once you get into the large projects with hundreds of items to add in, the logs for the starbase would be prohibitively huge. All they're really trying to do is say that there is a starbase project that many fleets have active, the items which are required for it do not drop anymore, because they were holiday specific. Rather than force every fleet to have that slot closed until they can fork out enough money to buy the ornaments on the exchange with a set supply, and thus a consistently increasing price on the gratitude beads, they're making it so the fleets don't have to be stuck with it..
They're trying to give a reasonable solution to the impending problem, which is both a compromise to the fleets who are stuck with it, and with the amount of time and money that would need to be spent for other projects. I assume they're just nuking the project as an available one in the servers, as a ~30 second fix to the problem. I don't think you can reasonably expect them to code in entirely new mechanics and systems in order to make it so the fleets can get a refund on a single holiday project, that's not even very popular once its complete, especially when much of the point of the starbase projects is that you have to complete the ones you start.
Your time just ran out. Nothing to do with small vs large fleets. You knew about this when you started it. How is it limited if you have as long as you want to do it (once you pick it up)?
Just to note: I don't support limited projects at all, and would like to see proper UI options to remove all projects (fleet and personal). How could Cryptic design these systems without that functionality?
So last I checked, the holiday ornaments didn't cost any money, and the only even arguable way you could spend money to get them would be spending Lobi, and for what they gave that seemed a little silly.
Second, unlike the seeming popular opinion of the forums, not every action that PWE or cryptic undertakes in the game is tantamount to theft. I assume there is no system in place to keep track of what each fleet individual contributes to a project in hindsight, because once you get into the large projects with hundreds of items to add in, the logs for the starbase would be prohibitively huge. All they're really trying to do is say that there is a starbase project that many fleets have active, the items which are required for it do not drop anymore, because they were holiday specific. Rather than force every fleet to have that slot closed until they can fork out enough money to buy the ornaments on the exchange with a set supply, and thus a consistently increasing price on the gratitude beads, they're making it so the fleets don't have to be stuck with it..
They're trying to give a reasonable solution to the impending problem, which is both a compromise to the fleets who are stuck with it, and with the amount of time and money that would need to be spent for other projects. I assume they're just nuking the project as an available one in the servers, as a ~30 second fix to the problem. I don't think you can reasonably expect them to code in entirely new mechanics and systems in order to make it so the fleets can get a refund on a single holiday project, that's not even very popular once its complete, especially when much of the point of the starbase projects is that you have to complete the ones you start.
Actually they are not giving a reasonable solution, a reasonable solution would be to figure out how to give fleet leaders the option to remove it. That is a reasonable solution. Not a one size fits all solution. Those fleets that just want to get rid of it, fine let them but not at the cost of those fleets that wish to try and finish it next Christmas.
To me it's not theft or anything like that. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a solution.
Vel'Drin (AKA Romulan Dukat) R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned) Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
Your time just ran out. Nothing to do with small vs large fleets. You knew about this when you started it.
All the special projects say Limited Time Project, but until now we were told so long as we have it started before the time expires we will be able to keep it. If they were going to change those rules that should have been stated before the project was available so people would know the new rule.
Vel'Drin (AKA Romulan Dukat) R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned) Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
Actually they are not giving a reasonable solution, a reasonable solution would be to figure out how to give fleet leaders the option to remove it. That is a reasonable solution. Not a one size fits all solution. Those fleets that just want to get rid of it, fine let them but not at the cost of those fleets that wish to try and finish it next Christmas.
To me it's not theft or anything like that. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a solution.
And you really expect them to create an entire new interface system to allow for an optional quitting of a single special project versus taking the more efficient route, which is currently the only way to remove a fleet project. You either don't want to finish it and ignore it, or you do want to finish it and they gave you a week's notice. Its not like they're saying that its getting removed today.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
And you really expect them to create an entire new interface system to allow for an optional quitting of a single special project versus taking the more efficient route, which is currently the only way to remove a fleet project. You either don't want to finish it and ignore it, or you do want to finish it and they gave you a week's notice. Its not like they're saying that its getting removed today.
They might as well, considering the limited possibility of getting the items needed to finish it.
And no this is not efficient, this is laziness. The players have been asking for a while for a way to stop projects in general. So this should give Cryptic added incentive to get that UI rework done quickly. It would kill two birds with one stone...well actually it would still be the same bird...however it would be a real solution rather than band-aid fix that at least some people do not want.
Vel'Drin (AKA Romulan Dukat) R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned) Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
All the special projects say Limited Time Project, but until now we were told so long as we have it started before the time expires we will be able to keep it. If they were going to change those rules that should have been stated before the project was available so people would know the new rule.
Yeah thats a fair point, although I saw this becoming a problem from the beginning. I can certainly understand it if their numbers told them that enough fleets would have been finished before now, so as not to slow down the uptake of newer projects, but perhaps a shortfall in uptake of the recent chairs unlock is forcing their hand to remove the winter event one so bluntly.
At least they are giving notice. Although, I'd much rather they just bite the programming bullet and develop the darn 'abandon' code that should have been implemented with Season 7 (for personal rep too).
If you don't get it finished by the 14th it's getting cleared from your list automatically. The "decoration" is horrible so this is probably your best bet if you can't get the resources in time. Other than that, try not to worry.
I'm not sure how? This is just removing the project so that fleets are not stuck with it who can not complete it.
...because we were told (don't remember by who) that the project would be converted so that it would require different items to fill, instead of the winter items.
And so it would be completable in any circumstance, instead of just being removed.
anyway, the projects result is HORRIBLE,
i hate the Breen Ornament being always ON when you enter the base,
never remembering the OFF mode when you press it,
not only is a Breen ship floating in the middle of your base, also the 2012 sign is there... 1st it is 2013 now, and 2nd in-game it is 2409... this makes no in-game-world sense whatsoever.
any fleet who did not complete it: be happy that the immersion in your Base stays intact, i would remove it from our base instantly if i could.
we were told it had an OFF function, well yes it has, only that the game does not remember that you switched it OFF when the instance has reset the next time you visit it will be ON
(i mean... at least make the default option OFF, so we can switch it ON when we want to see it, but as it is this thinh is just intrusive, immersion breaking, and annoying.)
It even made it into the Demo Record of a recording that was taken before we had it unlocked -> it is now in the Fleet video a member made for us.
Thankfully my fleet finished this before the end of the winter event. However, I really think you're going to upset a lot of fleets with this move. It is not up to the Devs whether or not a fleet gets to finish a project. If the fleet wants to keep working away on it, let them.
A lot of the smaller fleets have probably spent a lot of real money getting Lobi to purchase the reward packs, so now you're taking their reward away and still keeping their money, that's not a good business ethic.
Yes, it's a "Limited Time Project", but we've always been told that with these LTPs, so long as we start them before the end of the time, we can work away on it for as long as we need. You can't change the rules of the game part way through.
Really, you need to fix the fleet/embassy/reputation system to allow us to cancel projects we no longer wish to complete. Don't just go making the decision for us.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
All I am going to say is that people were given the option to buy packs of holiday commodities for Lobi, which could very well have made their way into an uncompleted project.
I guess this is a case of buyer beware, but maybe Lobi should not be used as a currency to obtain things of this nature that have a date-limited lifespan. GPL would have been a better choice and EC's would have been better yet. Just saying...
(Disclaimer: Doesn't affect me, but without the option to turn it off and leave it off until we turn it back on, I regret that we ever did it in our fleet.)
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
All I am going to say is that people were given the option to buy packs of holiday commodities for Lobi, which could very well have made their way into an uncompleted project.
I guess this is a case of buyer beware, but maybe Lobi should not be used as a currency to obtain things of this nature that have a date-limited lifespan. GPL would have been a better choice and EC's would have been better yet. Just saying...
Yeah, Lobi Crystals are my biggest annoyance with the game these days. I hate them with a passion. But using them for a project like this was just a stupid idea.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
All the special projects say Limited Time Project, but until now we were told so long as we have it started before the time expires we will be able to keep it. If they were going to change those rules that should have been stated before the project was available so people would know the new rule.
Totally this. If this is the new rule, then it should be stated as such, and if it is retroactive.
All I am going to say is that people were given the option to buy packs of holiday commodities for Lobi, which could very well have made their way into an uncompleted project.
I guess this is a case of buyer beware, but maybe Lobi should not be used as a currency to obtain things of this nature that have a date-limited lifespan. GPL would have been a better choice and EC's would have been better yet. Just saying...
(Disclaimer: Doesn't affect me, but without the option to turn it off and leave it off until we turn it back on, I regret that we ever did it in our fleet.)
Awww.... I like it.
anyways though, I like the fact that people won't be stuck with it half-completed indefinately.
I don't really get why people are upset about it being removed. It's been a MONTH since the supply of the commods dropped to a trickle. Prices are only going to go up from here....
First, you guys really need to look into giving us the option of cancelling projects in general - this is only one example, albeit a good one. Since S6 came out folks have been asking for this, and I'm not sure where the harm would be. In fact, I think you'd get a lot of praise.
There have been projects in progress when one suddenly comes out (say, when you unlock a Tier) that would benefit a Fleet a lot more, but until we grind to unlock so we can unlock to grind for the unlock to then pay huge amounts of dilithium and other resources for the...whatever...it can't be accessed.
So again, what is the harm? No refunds or anything, just give us the option to quit a project en lieu of another, or simply quit, period.
But, yeah, whereas A LOT of people I have run into in-game actually spent real world money to get multiple keys to open multiple boxes to acquire sufficient Lobi, you're telling some of them here that you couldn't care less what they did to get them, even if it was to line PWE's pockets; they're just out of luck!
Point 2: Some may say folks who pump money into a FTP game are insane, and that may be the case. But, it's no one else's business, and it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad play to "set the timer" on this, especially when some of the holiday things required only popped up VERY rarely, and so drove people to the Exchange, where their fellow players were waiting to exploit them or, as I'm sure it was planned, drove them to the Zen store to pay cash...
You all really need to look into the mechanics of the way things like this play out, and know that most Trek players are also Trek fans and, as such, have a little more intellect than all that - they can see what's happening and know what's fair and what isn't. When cash is or can be involved, you risk biting the hand that feeds you...
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge (...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
I'm not sure how? This is just removing the project so that fleets are not stuck with it who can not complete it. The exchange is now the only way to get these commodities (unless fellow fleet mates have unopened commodity bundles, or are keeping extra in their banks). The project was always listed as a "limited-time" and at least one dev posted that we'd offer a solution to remove it if you were not able to finish it so you were not stuck with it And we're giving notice if you'd like to actually finish it.
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
How about just doing the logical, intelligent and proper thing that should have been there since the start. Giving players their right to cancel their projects.. The fact that we can not cancel rep or fleet projects is a massive blunder and idiotic oversight. This needs to be addressed now!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
Comments
Imagine going to a car dealership and agreeing to purchase a new car, you sign the deal, pick the appropriate payment method and know you have a 6-14 week delivery while they build it, you have either paid up in full or start weekly payments... then the dealership turn around and say, sorry that car has been taken out of production now, it was only a short term production and your car wont be complete in time... you wont get a refund...
It would never happen!
A project once started should be allowed to finish... and no future ones started, or the funds inputted should be diverted elsewhere to other ongoing projects or converted to a usable means (ie dilithium) and put into a fleet pot to be used on another project (but not withdrawn from the fleet contribution system) and thus Perfect World not loosing any precious finances and users not losing their financial commitment to the game/project.
To turn around and say yeah but you got fleet credits so you can keep them is poor substitute, i can imagine the reason they are being left is only because it would be too hard to modify everyone's account to remove them!
They're going generally for the same cost they were during the last few days of the event. Most of them are still under 10k.
Bajoran Gratitude Beads are the big exception, running around 100,000, but it was also the rare item in it. Of course the rarity disparity is really a problem with how they built that task. And honestly, I imagine most folks are going to looking at the grat beads first, since that's what they really need.
So last I checked, the holiday ornaments didn't cost any money, and the only even arguable way you could spend money to get them would be spending Lobi, and for what they gave that seemed a little silly.
Second, unlike the seeming popular opinion of the forums, not every action that PWE or cryptic undertakes in the game is tantamount to theft. I assume there is no system in place to keep track of what each fleet individual contributes to a project in hindsight, because once you get into the large projects with hundreds of items to add in, the logs for the starbase would be prohibitively huge. All they're really trying to do is say that there is a starbase project that many fleets have active, the items which are required for it do not drop anymore, because they were holiday specific. Rather than force every fleet to have that slot closed until they can fork out enough money to buy the ornaments on the exchange with a set supply, and thus a consistently increasing price on the gratitude beads, they're making it so the fleets don't have to be stuck with it..
They're trying to give a reasonable solution to the impending problem, which is both a compromise to the fleets who are stuck with it, and with the amount of time and money that would need to be spent for other projects. I assume they're just nuking the project as an available one in the servers, as a ~30 second fix to the problem. I don't think you can reasonably expect them to code in entirely new mechanics and systems in order to make it so the fleets can get a refund on a single holiday project, that's not even very popular once its complete, especially when much of the point of the starbase projects is that you have to complete the ones you start.
T I M E
P R O J E C T
Your time just ran out. Nothing to do with small vs large fleets. You knew about this when you started it. How is it limited if you have as long as you want to do it (once you pick it up)?
Just to note: I don't support limited projects at all, and would like to see proper UI options to remove all projects (fleet and personal). How could Cryptic design these systems without that functionality?
Actually they are not giving a reasonable solution, a reasonable solution would be to figure out how to give fleet leaders the option to remove it. That is a reasonable solution. Not a one size fits all solution. Those fleets that just want to get rid of it, fine let them but not at the cost of those fleets that wish to try and finish it next Christmas.
To me it's not theft or anything like that. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a problem, not a solution.
R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned)
Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
All the special projects say Limited Time Project, but until now we were told so long as we have it started before the time expires we will be able to keep it. If they were going to change those rules that should have been stated before the project was available so people would know the new rule.
R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned)
Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
And you really expect them to create an entire new interface system to allow for an optional quitting of a single special project versus taking the more efficient route, which is currently the only way to remove a fleet project. You either don't want to finish it and ignore it, or you do want to finish it and they gave you a week's notice. Its not like they're saying that its getting removed today.
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!
They might as well, considering the limited possibility of getting the items needed to finish it.
And no this is not efficient, this is laziness. The players have been asking for a while for a way to stop projects in general. So this should give Cryptic added incentive to get that UI rework done quickly. It would kill two birds with one stone...well actually it would still be the same bird...however it would be a real solution rather than band-aid fix that at least some people do not want.
R.R.W. Novus Legatum - Romulan Republic (Fed Aligned)
Original Join Forum Date: August 2008
Yeah thats a fair point, although I saw this becoming a problem from the beginning. I can certainly understand it if their numbers told them that enough fleets would have been finished before now, so as not to slow down the uptake of newer projects, but perhaps a shortfall in uptake of the recent chairs unlock is forcing their hand to remove the winter event one so bluntly.
At least they are giving notice. Although, I'd much rather they just bite the programming bullet and develop the darn 'abandon' code that should have been implemented with Season 7 (for personal rep too).
Costing? Quite likely.
-Profit is in the wind, I wait for it, listening for your screams.
...because we were told (don't remember by who) that the project would be converted so that it would require different items to fill, instead of the winter items.
And so it would be completable in any circumstance, instead of just being removed.
anyway, the projects result is HORRIBLE,
i hate the Breen Ornament being always ON when you enter the base,
never remembering the OFF mode when you press it,
not only is a Breen ship floating in the middle of your base, also the 2012 sign is there... 1st it is 2013 now, and 2nd in-game it is 2409... this makes no in-game-world sense whatsoever.
any fleet who did not complete it: be happy that the immersion in your Base stays intact, i would remove it from our base instantly if i could.
we were told it had an OFF function, well yes it has, only that the game does not remember that you switched it OFF when the instance has reset the next time you visit it will be ON
(i mean... at least make the default option OFF, so we can switch it ON when we want to see it, but as it is this thinh is just intrusive, immersion breaking, and annoying.)
It even made it into the Demo Record of a recording that was taken before we had it unlocked -> it is now in the Fleet video a member made for us.
NICE !
I've been saving those items for this eventuality.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I do hope you are going to put an announcement about this not only in the game, but on that launcher as well??
Me too, going to make a bundle on the exchange now!
A lot of the smaller fleets have probably spent a lot of real money getting Lobi to purchase the reward packs, so now you're taking their reward away and still keeping their money, that's not a good business ethic.
Yes, it's a "Limited Time Project", but we've always been told that with these LTPs, so long as we start them before the end of the time, we can work away on it for as long as we need. You can't change the rules of the game part way through.
Really, you need to fix the fleet/embassy/reputation system to allow us to cancel projects we no longer wish to complete. Don't just go making the decision for us.
I guess this is a case of buyer beware, but maybe Lobi should not be used as a currency to obtain things of this nature that have a date-limited lifespan. GPL would have been a better choice and EC's would have been better yet. Just saying...
(Disclaimer: Doesn't affect me, but without the option to turn it off and leave it off until we turn it back on, I regret that we ever did it in our fleet.)
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Yeah, Lobi Crystals are my biggest annoyance with the game these days. I hate them with a passion. But using them for a project like this was just a stupid idea.
Totally this. If this is the new rule, then it should be stated as such, and if it is retroactive.
The doors, Mister Scott!
I'M RIIIICH!!!
I got over 300 of each mwhahaha time to put them on the exchange. ...I love supply and demand.
Thank you Cryptic, and thank you to my 3 fleets who got it done a long time ago.
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
anyways though, I like the fact that people won't be stuck with it half-completed indefinately.
I don't really get why people are upset about it being removed. It's been a MONTH since the supply of the commods dropped to a trickle. Prices are only going to go up from here....
My character Tsin'xing
First, you guys really need to look into giving us the option of cancelling projects in general - this is only one example, albeit a good one. Since S6 came out folks have been asking for this, and I'm not sure where the harm would be. In fact, I think you'd get a lot of praise.
There have been projects in progress when one suddenly comes out (say, when you unlock a Tier) that would benefit a Fleet a lot more, but until we grind to unlock so we can unlock to grind for the unlock to then pay huge amounts of dilithium and other resources for the...whatever...it can't be accessed.
So again, what is the harm? No refunds or anything, just give us the option to quit a project en lieu of another, or simply quit, period.
But, yeah, whereas A LOT of people I have run into in-game actually spent real world money to get multiple keys to open multiple boxes to acquire sufficient Lobi, you're telling some of them here that you couldn't care less what they did to get them, even if it was to line PWE's pockets; they're just out of luck!
Point 2: Some may say folks who pump money into a FTP game are insane, and that may be the case. But, it's no one else's business, and it doesn't change the fact that it's a bad play to "set the timer" on this, especially when some of the holiday things required only popped up VERY rarely, and so drove people to the Exchange, where their fellow players were waiting to exploit them or, as I'm sure it was planned, drove them to the Zen store to pay cash...
You all really need to look into the mechanics of the way things like this play out, and know that most Trek players are also Trek fans and, as such, have a little more intellect than all that - they can see what's happening and know what's fair and what isn't. When cash is or can be involved, you risk biting the hand that feeds you...
Fleet Commander
Caprica's Revenge
(...actually active since November 2010, which may one day be important to archaeologists, but not to anyone else...)
How about just doing the logical, intelligent and proper thing that should have been there since the start. Giving players their right to cancel their projects.. The fact that we can not cancel rep or fleet projects is a massive blunder and idiotic oversight. This needs to be addressed now!
Pretty much. Standard cryptic MO.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
___________________________
Joined April 2008. Lifetime Subscriber. Original member of the original 2nd Fleet.
Expended $1,961 USD on this game - regretting it all. This game and some of its staff disappointed me, time and again, per every single cent spent!!!