removal of all implants is almost invariably Fatal
And even if you do the mental damage remains
wiping out the entire Borg collective would save more lives than it would take
AND would make me feel safer in my bunk
I still disagree that drones are not alive, but I do know that I'd rather die than become one. I imagine the same would be true of most of the Collective's population. And if you think about it, there's really only one sentient entity at work in the Collective.
So if I had the chance to wipe out the Borg Collective, I'd probably take it. For our sakes, and for theirs as well.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
You are missing the bigger moral dilemma that Picard eventually saw regard Hugh which he himself (and Seven of Nine) embodies. Yes the Borg are a menace. But each drone disconnected from the Collective is an individual. Condemning the entirity of the Collective into oblivion means the destruction of trillion of innocent individuals as well.
As long as they're still part of the collective, they are enemy combatants and have to be fought as such. That doesn't mean they're dead or un-people (regardless of what the CIA thinks), it's just a kind of unpleasant truth.
Break the local vinculum net though, and they become refugees to be rescued. The Fed has the medical tech to physically roll back assimilation, so once a drone population is disconnected from the collective, there is a moral obligation to treat them as people and refugees in need of care. A connected drone is to be treated as an enemy by default, a disconnected drone is to be treated as a wounded friendly by default, simple as.
That also means that the strategic objective should always be to disconnect rather than kill if at all possible. It will probably be necessary to kill to accomplish that, but that should always be the end goal in mind.
Lingering physical or mental trauma is not a factor. That's just daft. Try telling a wounded vet in a wheelchair that he should've been left to die where he fell because he's clearly no good for anyone now. Try telling a r4p3* victim that she shouldn't even bother trying to put her ordeal behind her and getting her life back, because even the faintest lingering twinge makes her as good as catatonic rubble in your eyes. Trauma happens, sometimes people recover fully, sometimes they don't, but a functional recovery (like Picard) is anything but a lost cause simply because they can't get absolutely totally 100% back to the way they were before.
*Sorry for the 1337-speak BS, but that is NOT a word that should be censored.
As long as they're still part of the collective, they are enemy combatants and have to be fought as such. That doesn't mean they're dead or un-people (regardless of what the CIA thinks), it's just a kind of unpleasant truth.
Break the local vinculum net though, and they become refugees to be rescued. The Fed has the medical tech to physically roll back assimilation, so once a drone population is disconnected from the collective, there is a moral obligation to treat them as people and refugees in need of care. A connected drone is to be treated as an enemy by default, a disconnected drone is to be treated as a wounded friendly by default, simple as.
That also means that the strategic objective should always be to disconnect rather than kill if at all possible. It will probably be necessary to kill to accomplish that, but that should always be the end goal in mind.
Lingering physical or mental trauma is not a factor. That's just daft. Try telling a wounded vet in a wheelchair that he should've been left to die where he fell because he's clearly no good for anyone now. Try telling a r4p3* victim that she shouldn't even bother trying to put her ordeal behind her and getting her life back, because even the faintest lingering twinge makes her as good as catatonic rubble in your eyes. Trauma happens, sometimes people recover fully, sometimes they don't, but a functional recovery (like Picard) is anything but a lost cause simply because they can't get absolutely totally 100% back to the way they were before.
*Sorry for the 1337-speak BS, but that is NOT a word that should be censored.
bimbo of nine was sent into voyager specifically BY the queen as a step to becoming a better weapon
And the Queen's plan failed, because Seven refused to help her. She rejected the Collective. She rejected her past and tried to focus on her future instead. That's human enough for me.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
And the Queen's plan failed, because Seven refused to help her. She rejected the Collective. She rejected her past and tried to focus on her future instead. That's human enough for me.
And the Queen's plan failed, because Seven refused to help her. She rejected the Collective. She rejected her past and tried to focus on her future instead. That's human enough for me.
She succeeded
look at the map today
Borg as far as the eye can see
Borg in starfleet
Borg in the KDF
Borg Everywhere
and they would be extinct had it not been for the "infiltration units" like seven , hugh , picard , neelix etc
Borg as far as the eye can see
Borg in starfleet
Borg in the KDF
Borg Everywhere
and they would be extinct had it not been for the "infiltration units" like seven , hugh , picard , neelix etc
The Queen's plan was to infect Earth with a nanite charge. Since that apparently hasn't happened yet, that plan was either cancelled or put on hold thanks to Seven's revolt.
What on Earth, Vulcan, or Tellar makes you think Picard is an "infiltration unit"? His implants were removed, he hates the Collective... remember when he went Captain Ahab on them in First Contact? Why would he do that if he was working for them?
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
The Queen's plan was to infect Earth with a nanite charge. Since that apparently hasn't happened yet, that plan was either cancelled or put on hold thanks to Seven's revolt.
one of her plans
however find ships today without borg infestation ???
its very hard
Every ship in the fleet seems to have borg tech , borg crew members
even borg captains
What on Earth, Vulcan, or Tellar makes you think Picard is an "infiltration unit"? His implants were removed, he hates the Collective...
programed to think he does maybe
Remember he constantly Acts to prevent pesticide against the borg
remember when he went Captain Ahab on them in First Contact? Why would he do that if he was working for them?
took down a couple
could have finished them all
didn't
Remember the manchurian candidate ?
the best assassin does not know he is an assassin
the best infiltrator still thinks its human
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
the best assassin does not know he is an assassin
the best infiltrator still thinks its human
There is zero evidence for Borg sleeper agents in Starfleet.
Picard and 7 where freed form the Collective.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Not seen even one yet who was prepared to genocide them
Ergo loyalty to the collective overides loyalty to organic life
Picard wanted to. He just didn't want to use Hugh like that. You yourself said in another thread it's unethical to use people.
Janeway hated them too - her words to the Queen were "I don't compromise with Borg." And she blew up the Collective's transwarp network (and Unicomplex) a year later.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
insufficient
capture the queen
Force de-assimilate her
use her neural processor rigged to a simple interface to enslave ALL the Borg
He probably wanted to do some something like that, until Lily Sloan convinced him that wouldn't stop them in time to save Earth or the Enterprise.
Replicate some simple rifles and go in and kill them all
Easy
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Or use a temporal revision to erase the the borg entirely
Starfleet doesn't like to cheat. That's why they made the Temporal Prime Directive.
or did they?
theres no evidence starfleet introduced that it could have been almost anyone
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Not seen even one yet who was prepared to genocide them
Ergo loyalty to the collective overides loyalty to organic life
Picard wanted to. He just didn't want to use Hugh like that. You yourself said in another thread it's unethical to use people.
hugh wasn't people he was drone
Janeway hated them too - her words to the Queen were "I don't compromise with Borg." And she blew up the Collective's transwarp network (and Unicomplex) a year later.
yet she never de-assimilated seven neelix or chakotay
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet
the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force
Can't think of a good rebuttal, so I'll let it go. Though I still think they must have some kind of defense against brute force like that, otherwise Starfleet would have adapted their tactics.
When people are joined to the Collective, they become slaves to its will (and therefore drones). Once they're liberated from the Collective, they are no longer bound to it (though full recovery can take a while, as in Seven's case) and can function as individuals with their own free will. They are, by definition, no longer drones.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet
the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well... Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons. If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually, people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well... Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons. If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually, people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.
The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.
Take for example Operation Chastise. The objective was to take out three german controlled dams. They couldn't be bombed as they had to many guns, and they couldn't be torpedoed due to the anti-torpedo nets. The solution?
Build a bomb that can skip like a stone across water.
The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet
the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force
Can't think of a good rebuttal, so I'll let it go. Though I still think they must have some kind of defense against brute force like that, otherwise Starfleet would have adapted their tactics.
They don't
The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
a drone is a drone is a drone
Until, of course, it is no longer a drone.
When de-assimilated (converted to free floating molecules)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Chakotay was partly assimilated
You're talking about "Unity", I presume? I would argue that those people weren't serving the Collective anymore, but I suspect it would be futile.
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Neelix was brought back from the dead by nanites
All the nanites did was reactivate his vital functions. There wasn't any assimilation going on.
Borg component = Borg
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Better dead than Drone Always
Yes, but she wasn't a drone anymore.
yes im afraid she was and will always be
When people are joined to the Collective, they become slaves to its will (and therefore drones). Once they're liberated from the Collective, they are no longer bound to it (though full recovery can take a while, as in Seven's case) and can function as individuals with their own free will. They are, by definition, no longer drones.
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
markhawkman I'm still expecting the Borg to start using Neutronium some day.
they probably do (to make spoons)
Yesterday 07:14 PM
centersolace Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
As Borg today can still be jacked in the face
No they can not
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.
its based on borg stupidity
the limited mind of the Borg does not allow it to reason a defence to physical force
The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.
Borg are ruled by stupidity
they replace efficient flesh with metal
they replace intelligence with compliance
and they remove their reproductive organs to make room for a stereo
The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans
Yesterday 06:12 PM
marcusdkane Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
starfleet body armour
or simply NOT attacking
Oh for sure, plenty of ways they could do it, I was just wondering if they already could do so if the situation arose, but we simply haven't seen it onscreen due to the Federation's reliance on particle rather than projectile weapons
Yesterday 05:52 PM
we know that they have been assimilating for centuries and STILL have no resistance to a punch in the face
centersolace Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well...
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway
Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons.
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually
,
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them
no reason to ground engage and be massacred
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
Snap off the car's aerial, and waggle the joystick all you like, the car goes nowhere unless someone's pushing it. Was Seven ever physically taken over by the collective once separated and made to move against her will, or was she simply coerced and emotionally blackmailed into compliance?
Assimilation tubules can penetrate all known armor and energy fields... Even an immortal Human would be unable to stand up to a drone in a physical confrontation... The Quickening might delay the assimilation process, but, it would eventually be adapted to, and then hijacked to enhance the internal replication process... The only way I'd consider taking on a drone hand to hand, would be with a weapon like a naginata. I wouldn't want them anywhere near reaching distance, even a bat'leth would be closer than I would be happy with (especially with a group of drones) Worf's taking on the drone with the mek'leth was only viable as a one on one situation, and even then, still not well thought out (as proven when his EVA suit got ripped...)
Yes, kinetic energy. With the safety protocols disengaged, items within the holodeck behave as replicated objects, not mere 'projections' and controlled forcefields. The bullets were as real as any manufactured. Picard was simply simplifying the events for Lily's benefit.
I agree, no need to do so, but, as mentioned, I do wonder if the Borg could simply switch their forcefields on permanently (like the Holtzman shields in the Duneverse) if they knew that a particular confrontation was to involve projectile weapons...
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
Not so. Even partially de-assimilated, Seven was smarter, stronger and faster than Tuvok, and as Vulcans are smarter, stronger and faster than Humans, by definition, that would make her considerably more so. Consider the capabilities of the disconnected drones in Descent... I do concede that Human versatility has been shown to trump the Collective, but to assume that that will always be the case, is a dangerously over-confident mindset.
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.
The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.
Take for example Operation Chastise. The objective was to take out three german controlled dams. They couldn't be bombed as they had to many guns, and they couldn't be torpedoed due to the anti-torpedo nets. The solution?
Build a bomb that can skip like a stone across water.
The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
I do see what you mean, the Borg are thinking: If everyone's using the same weapons, why adjust tactics... I'm just wondering if their forcefields have that 'permanent option'.
I know that if I saw a cube on the viewscreen, I would order every crew member to immediately replicate a pistol and a sub-machine gun. The first few drones who beam over, they eat lead. But would subsequent waves of boarding drones be caught in the same way, or would that branch of the collective adapt and go 'shields up' in response to the repeated attacks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times
What episode was that in?
all and none
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
yes im afraid she was and will always be
Evidence, please.
look at the borg drone baby
BORN with implants
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
So as long as the liberated drones remain seperated from the Collective, they're no longer drones. Exactly my point.
but they are never entirely seperate especially in STO
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans
Less adaptable, maybe.
less intelligent
theres a heap of radio shack spares in their skull so less room for a start
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
I'm pretty sure those are bullets. Machine gun fire.
Cochrane shoots a vulcan with an energy weapon
others are used in the storming
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
Depends on how many there are.
no it doesn't
Against modern blood thirsty humans the borg would not stand a chance
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them
no reason to ground engage and be massacred
That is how they did it in "Dark Frontier". Except for the naked part.
the naked part is important
marcusdkane
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 368# 88
Today, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate
If you keep up this kind of GO 24 nonsense, you're going to wind up getting Section 8'd... I'll come visit every Tuesday and bring a kal-toh puzzle
nothing to do with General order 24
you Cleanse and sterlise infection sites (infection control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
Snap off the car's aerial, and waggle the joystick all you like, the car goes nowhere unless someone's pushing it. Was Seven ever physically taken over by the collective once separated and made to move against her will, or was she simply coerced and emotionally blackmailed into compliance?
impossible to tell
but she acted to increase the borg collective on voyager
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
starfleet body armour
Assimilation tubules can penetrate all known armor and energy fields...
yeah bit of a cop out
But I mean Drones WEARING it to protect them from us
Even an immortal Human would be unable to stand up to a drone in a physical confrontation...
actually ANY human can
the golden rule is on assimilation repeat the phrase "I am the Borg We ARE Human"
The Quickening might delay the assimilation process, but, it would eventually be adapted to, and then hijacked to enhance the internal replication process... The only way I'd consider taking on a drone hand to hand, would be with a weapon like a naginata.
i can not be assimilated (im diabetic)
many species also can't be for various reasons
I wouldn't want them anywhere near reaching distance, even a bat'leth would be closer than I would be happy with (especially with a group of drones) Worf's taking on the drone with the mek'leth was only viable as a one on one situation, and even then, still not well thought out (as proven when his EVA suit got ripped...)
fire arrows , throw grenades , unleash Ebola , send in a gardening robot
Qu
ote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway
Yes, kinetic energy. With the safety protocols disengaged, items within the holodeck behave as replicated objects, not mere 'projections' and controlled forcefields. The bullets were as real as any manufactured. Picard was simply simplifying the events for Lily's benefit.
and it still killed them
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
Haven't seen them, but I'll take your word for it.
its actually the best story in enterprise
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
Agreed.
Good thats another one sorted
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them
Why naked? No other shown assimilations have involved the victims being naked...
Weapons
the average modern human is Armed
the average modern american owns a gun for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
no reason to ground engage and be massacred
I agree, no need to do so, but, as mentioned, I do wonder if the Borg could simply switch their forcefields on permanently (like the Holtzman shields in the Duneverse) if they knew that a particular confrontation was to involve projectile weapons...
their shields do not work that way (and if they did we have people who could still kill them)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
Not so. Even partially de-assimilated, Seven was smarter, stronger and faster than Tuvok
,
Tuvok is not relevant
I said a Modern human
(stronger and faster than a trek human)
and as Vulcans are smarter, stronger and faster than Humans, by definition, that would make her considerably more so
Seven had "bimbo power"
A drone is slow
A drone can be dismantled before it can turn round
and of course a Drone is physically incapable of walking with a wiggle
#
.
Consider the capabilities of the disconnected drones in Descent... I do concede that Human versatility has been shown to trump the Collective, but to assume that that will always be the case, is a dangerously over-confident mindset.
remember humanity has degenerated in the last few centuries
TOS humans were stronger than TNG humans and Enterprise humans stronger still
We in the 21st century could beat the hell out of a drone
our environment is much tougher
we have stronger immune systems
we are infact Physically superior in most respects
I do see what you mean, the Borg are thinking: If everyone's using the same weapons, why adjust tactics... I'm just wondering if their forcefields have that 'permanent option'.
I know that if I saw a cube on the viewscreen, I would order every crew member to immediately replicate a pistol and a sub-machine gun. The first few drones who beam over, they eat lead. But would subsequent waves of boarding drones be caught in the same way, or would that branch of the collective adapt and go 'shields up' in response to the repeated attacks...
Or maybe better body armor. Cardassian and Hirogen body armor was very good for this sort of thing.
Comments
removal of all implants is almost invariably Fatal
And even if you do the mental damage remains
wiping out the entire Borg collective would save more lives than it would take
AND would make me feel safer in my bunk
I still disagree that drones are not alive, but I do know that I'd rather die than become one. I imagine the same would be true of most of the Collective's population. And if you think about it, there's really only one sentient entity at work in the Collective.
So if I had the chance to wipe out the Borg Collective, I'd probably take it. For our sakes, and for theirs as well.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
And letting them exist, dooms trillions more.
Break the local vinculum net though, and they become refugees to be rescued. The Fed has the medical tech to physically roll back assimilation, so once a drone population is disconnected from the collective, there is a moral obligation to treat them as people and refugees in need of care. A connected drone is to be treated as an enemy by default, a disconnected drone is to be treated as a wounded friendly by default, simple as.
That also means that the strategic objective should always be to disconnect rather than kill if at all possible. It will probably be necessary to kill to accomplish that, but that should always be the end goal in mind.
Lingering physical or mental trauma is not a factor. That's just daft. Try telling a wounded vet in a wheelchair that he should've been left to die where he fell because he's clearly no good for anyone now. Try telling a r4p3* victim that she shouldn't even bother trying to put her ordeal behind her and getting her life back, because even the faintest lingering twinge makes her as good as catatonic rubble in your eyes. Trauma happens, sometimes people recover fully, sometimes they don't, but a functional recovery (like Picard) is anything but a lost cause simply because they can't get absolutely totally 100% back to the way they were before.
*Sorry for the 1337-speak BS, but that is NOT a word that should be censored.
Picard could read borg minds and borg can read his
bimbo of nine was sent into voyager specifically BY the queen as a step to becoming a better weapon
and theres a difference between a veteran and a unisol
And the Queen's plan failed, because Seven refused to help her. She rejected the Collective. She rejected her past and tried to focus on her future instead. That's human enough for me.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Selfishness is the most human trait of them all.
She succeeded
look at the map today
Borg as far as the eye can see
Borg in starfleet
Borg in the KDF
Borg Everywhere
and they would be extinct had it not been for the "infiltration units" like seven , hugh , picard , neelix etc
The Queen's plan was to infect Earth with a nanite charge. Since that apparently hasn't happened yet, that plan was either cancelled or put on hold thanks to Seven's revolt.
What on Earth, Vulcan, or Tellar makes you think Picard is an "infiltration unit"? His implants were removed, he hates the Collective... remember when he went Captain Ahab on them in First Contact? Why would he do that if he was working for them?
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
one of her plans
however find ships today without borg infestation ???
its very hard
Every ship in the fleet seems to have borg tech , borg crew members
even borg captains
programed to think he does maybe
Remember he constantly Acts to prevent pesticide against the borg
took down a couple
could have finished them all
didn't
Remember the manchurian candidate ?
the best assassin does not know he is an assassin
the best infiltrator still thinks its human
That would actually be an awesome mission: the Borg attempting to activate all the Borg tech used by Starfleet and the KDF.
Like when?
In "I, Borg" he only decided against it because he didn't feel right using Hugh in that way.
He tried. Remember that self-destruct sequence he initiated?
You have little (if any) empirical evidence to prove that liberated Borg will always remain loyal to the Collective.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
There is zero evidence for Borg sleeper agents in Starfleet.
Picard and 7 where freed form the Collective.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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a swine to write in foundry however
Id be ok we don't have ANY Borg tech on any of our ships
his programming would not allow it
insufficient
capture the queen
Force de-assimilate her
use her neural processor rigged to a simple interface to enslave ALL the Borg
Or use a temporal revision to erase the the borg entirely
Not seen even one yet who was prepared to genocide them
Ergo loyalty to the collective overides loyalty to organic life
He probably wanted to do some something like that, until Lily Sloan convinced him that wouldn't stop them in time to save Earth or the Enterprise.
Starfleet doesn't like to cheat. That's why they made the Temporal Prime Directive.
Picard wanted to. He just didn't want to use Hugh like that. You yourself said in another thread it's unethical to use people.
Janeway hated them too - her words to the Queen were "I don't compromise with Borg." And she blew up the Collective's transwarp network (and Unicomplex) a year later.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Replicate some simple rifles and go in and kill them all
Easy
or did they?
theres no evidence starfleet introduced that it could have been almost anyone
hugh wasn't people he was drone
yet she never de-assimilated seven neelix or chakotay
all of them were allowed to remain borg infected
If it were that easy, they probably would have. Perhaps the Borg have some defense against them that we didn't see on-screen.
It was someone in the Federation.
He was drone. Then he became people.
Neelix and Chakotay weren't assimilated.
Seven only retained those implants because she'd been a drone for so long. They couldn't remove all of them without killing her.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
They don't
Borg can be killed with a punch
a knife
a bullet
the 23rd+ century people simply think the wrong way
The borg are amazingly vulnerable to brute force
Probably the Federation science council
a drone is a drone is a drone
ONE nanite and you are contaminated
Chakotay was partly assimilated
Neelix was brought back from the dead by nanites
neither was free after that
Better dead than Drone Always
Can't think of a good rebuttal, so I'll let it go. Though I still think they must have some kind of defense against brute force like that, otherwise Starfleet would have adapted their tactics.
Until, of course, it is no longer a drone.
You're talking about "Unity", I presume? I would argue that those people weren't serving the Collective anymore, but I suspect it would be futile.
All the nanites did was reactivate his vital functions. There wasn't any assimilation going on.
Yes, but she wasn't a drone anymore.
When people are joined to the Collective, they become slaves to its will (and therefore drones). Once they're liberated from the Collective, they are no longer bound to it (though full recovery can take a while, as in Seven's case) and can function as individuals with their own free will. They are, by definition, no longer drones.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
I was thinking about this earlier, and wondering if it is definitely so... When the Borg have had a weapon used against them in the past, the first drone is dead. Sometimes the second too, and usually the third adapts. When Picard shot the Borg on the holodeck, there were only two of them, so impossible to know if the other drones on the Enterprise would have been able to adapt against bullets... Given how the forcefields of a brig and starship can block physical impacts, I'm wondering if drones might have the ability to change their shields from 'passive' where they only activate upon incoming energy weapons, to 'active', where they would constantly be on, and deflecting not just energy-based, but physical impacts as well... Sure, in a situation like Picard had, I doubt it would do much good. But in an extended conflict against projectiles, I wonder if they might still have adapted... Afterall, in First Contact, the Borg were able to assimilate the Earth at a time prior to energy-based weapons. If bullets were all that was required to take down a drone, I would have thought that eventually, people would have realized that any projectile weapon would be effective, and contained the assimilation force. But, as they Earth was assimilated, people either didn't work it out, or, the Borg were indeed able to adapt against projectiles...
There are many ways they could do it too. Better shields, more efficient regeneration cycles, armor plating, mini transporter inhibitors to counter the TR-116, Borg tanks....
Oddly, now that you mentioned it, I actually think that everyones reliance on particle weapons actually might be helping us rather than hindering us.
The Borg are ruled by efficiency, and thus tend to counter things rather than innovating ahead of time. That's actually the biggest weakness of the Borg, as when people are at their most creative, that's also when they're the most dangerous.
Take for example Operation Chastise. The objective was to take out three german controlled dams. They couldn't be bombed as they had to many guns, and they couldn't be torpedoed due to the anti-torpedo nets. The solution?
Build a bomb that can skip like a stone across water.
The Borg aren't capable of that kind of unorthodox thinking unless something provokes it. So in other words, by keeping the Borg bored, we have more options to surprise them.
My character Tsin'xing
They don't
The first enemy the borg assimilated punched them in the face and tried a chair as a weapon
the last enemy did the same it worked both times
When de-assimilated (converted to free floating molecules)
they WERE Borg
the planet should have been tri-cobalted
thats proceedure
Eradicate
Borg component = Borg
yes im afraid she was and will always be
Separate a radio controlled car from the transmitter and its not radio controlled
re-introduce the transmitter and they are radio controlled again
they probably do (to make spoons)
As Borg today can still be jacked in the face
No they can not
its based on borg stupidity
the limited mind of the Borg does not allow it to reason a defence to physical force
Borg are ruled by stupidity
they replace efficient flesh with metal
they replace intelligence with compliance
and they remove their reproductive organs to make room for a stereo
the Borg (individual or collective) are less intelligent than humans
starfleet body armour
or simply NOT attacking
Yesterday 05:52 PM
we know that they have been assimilating for centuries and STILL have no resistance to a punch in the face
holodeck gun was an energy attack anyway
incorrect (check the opening of the enterprise mirror episodes lasers are the norm)
,
if the Borg Arrived TODAY
they would be exterminated
more likely
they beamed a few people up (naked)
assimilated them
beamed a few more up (naked)
Assimilated them
no reason to ground engage and be massacred
as I say todays humans would make mince of the borg Even unarmed and nude
we are smarter ,stronger , faster and better than they are
What episode was that in?
Evidence, please.
So as long as the liberated drones remain seperated from the Collective, they're no longer drones. Exactly my point.
Less adaptable, maybe.
I'm pretty sure those are bullets. Machine gun fire.
Depends on how many there are.
That is how they did it in "Dark Frontier". Except for the naked part.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Snap off the car's aerial, and waggle the joystick all you like, the car goes nowhere unless someone's pushing it. Was Seven ever physically taken over by the collective once separated and made to move against her will, or was she simply coerced and emotionally blackmailed into compliance?
Assimilation tubules can penetrate all known armor and energy fields... Even an immortal Human would be unable to stand up to a drone in a physical confrontation... The Quickening might delay the assimilation process, but, it would eventually be adapted to, and then hijacked to enhance the internal replication process... The only way I'd consider taking on a drone hand to hand, would be with a weapon like a naginata. I wouldn't want them anywhere near reaching distance, even a bat'leth would be closer than I would be happy with (especially with a group of drones) Worf's taking on the drone with the mek'leth was only viable as a one on one situation, and even then, still not well thought out (as proven when his EVA suit got ripped...)
Yes, kinetic energy. With the safety protocols disengaged, items within the holodeck behave as replicated objects, not mere 'projections' and controlled forcefields. The bullets were as real as any manufactured. Picard was simply simplifying the events for Lily's benefit.
Haven't seen them, but I'll take your word for it.
Agreed.
Why naked? No other shown assimilations have involved the victims being naked...
I agree, no need to do so, but, as mentioned, I do wonder if the Borg could simply switch their forcefields on permanently (like the Holtzman shields in the Duneverse) if they knew that a particular confrontation was to involve projectile weapons...
Not so. Even partially de-assimilated, Seven was smarter, stronger and faster than Tuvok, and as Vulcans are smarter, stronger and faster than Humans, by definition, that would make her considerably more so. Consider the capabilities of the disconnected drones in Descent... I do concede that Human versatility has been shown to trump the Collective, but to assume that that will always be the case, is a dangerously over-confident mindset.
I know that if I saw a cube on the viewscreen, I would order every crew member to immediately replicate a pistol and a sub-machine gun. The first few drones who beam over, they eat lead. But would subsequent waves of boarding drones be caught in the same way, or would that branch of the collective adapt and go 'shields up' in response to the repeated attacks...
all and none
look at the borg drone baby
BORN with implants
but they are never entirely seperate especially in STO
less intelligent
theres a heap of radio shack spares in their skull so less room for a start
Cochrane shoots a vulcan with an energy weapon
others are used in the storming
no it doesn't
Against modern blood thirsty humans the borg would not stand a chance
the naked part is important
nothing to do with General order 24
you Cleanse and sterlise infection sites (infection control)
impossible to tell
but she acted to increase the borg collective on voyager
yeah bit of a cop out
But I mean Drones WEARING it to protect them from us
actually ANY human can
the golden rule is on assimilation repeat the phrase "I am the Borg We ARE Human"
i can not be assimilated (im diabetic)
many species also can't be for various reasons
fire arrows , throw grenades , unleash Ebola , send in a gardening robot
Qu
and it still killed them
its actually the best story in enterprise
Good thats another one sorted
Weapons
the average modern human is Armed
the average modern american owns a gun for example
their shields do not work that way (and if they did we have people who could still kill them)
,
Tuvok is not relevant
I said a Modern human
(stronger and faster than a trek human)
Seven had "bimbo power"
A drone is slow
A drone can be dismantled before it can turn round
and of course a Drone is physically incapable of walking with a wiggle
#
.
remember humanity has degenerated in the last few centuries
TOS humans were stronger than TNG humans and Enterprise humans stronger still
We in the 21st century could beat the hell out of a drone
our environment is much tougher
we have stronger immune systems
we are infact Physically superior in most respects
My character Tsin'xing