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Star Trek discusion

jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited January 2013 in Ten Forward
Any of you seen a VOY episode , cannot remember what it is called , got the word scporion in it. Where they meet 7 of 9 . Do you agree or disagree with Janeways decision. I woul like some feedback before I make my mind up.
Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

I hope STO get's better ...
Post edited by jumpingjs on
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    its called Scorpion

    and no Id have vapourised the whole damn cube and given the Undine the means to finish the job
    Live long and Prosper
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    thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,985 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The Borg are a Plague!

    I would have had Picard up on treason charges for not virusing Hugh and sending him back as well.
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    cmdrscarletcmdrscarlet Member Posts: 5,137 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    In my opinion ...

    If you mean the alliance with the Borg ... yes, I agree. The primary objective was to get home and "the Northwest Passage" was a means to that end. Faced with the new threat, and knowing a fight with the Borg was inevitable anyway then "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach was a wise option to employ.

    Besides, we got 7 of 9 for the rest of the series :)
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    could have removed BOTH enemies if she had been a bit more intelligent

    and seven was of course a major threat AND a delaying factor in getting home
    Live long and Prosper
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    cmdrscarlet wrote: »
    In my opinion ...

    If you mean the alliance with the Borg ... yes, I agree. The primary objective was to get home and "the Northwest Passage" was a means to that end. Faced with the new threat, and knowing a fight with the Borg was inevitable anyway then "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach was a wise option to employ.

    Besides, we got 7 of 9 for the rest of the series :)

    I agree, it was a deal with the devil, because the only other option, was simply to call it a day and start living in the Delta Quadrant, as Borg space was an all or nothing venture. They had to do something, so something they did...

    My one major beef, was that Seven was de-assimilated. From a story perspective, I would have found the character more plausible had she remained as a full, albeit disconnected, drone. The fact that the Doctor said he removed over 80% of the Borg hardware, yet she still just happened to have whatever the plot required, got a bit tedious after a while, as did the wearing of the catsuits... She could've either worn Kes' handmedowns, or other suitable civilian attire, rather than the catsuit...
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Seven should have been blown out an airlock and phasered into molecules

    Borg is Borg

    as to a deal with the devil

    "remodulate the deflector array and collapse fluidic space around the borg ships "
    thus killing BOTH races

    its what The real captains would have done (well actually picard would have negotiated a three way peace over tea and cake )
    Live long and Prosper
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    sollvax wrote: »
    Seven should have been blown out an airlock and phasered into molecules
    To be fair to Captain Kate, she did give the order to depressurize the area, and Seven was nearly spaced... I just wish they'd kept her as a drone, rather than a Swiss Army Bunny...
    sollvax wrote: »
    as to a deal with the devil

    "remodulate the deflector array and collapse fluidic space around the borg ships "
    thus killing BOTH races

    its what The real captains would have done (well actually picard would have negotiated a three way peace over tea and cake )
    Wasn't really any need to kill the Undine, they had every right to be hostile, simply leaving them to deal with the Borg would have been the easiest option (but still wouldn't've allowed Voyager to cross Borg Space...) Oh well...
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    marcusdkane wrote: »
    Wasn't really any need to kill the Undine, they had every right to be hostile, simply leaving them to deal with the Borg would have been the easiest option (but still wouldn't've allowed Voyager to cross Borg Space...) Oh well...

    I never thought the Undine worked as villains either. It's kind of hard to vilify something when you agree with it. :P So no. I don't agree with Capt'n Kate there.

    I don't even agree Picards decision in "Hugh". Are Viruses living creatures? Do they have a right to exist? Who cares!!! They're dangerous things programmed to consume. They need to be destroyed.
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    A virus is NOT technically alive
    Live long and Prosper
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    connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Well... that kinda gets into the definition of "technically alive", which once you actually start trying to pin it down turns out to be much more of an intuitive "I know it when I see it" distinction than a technical (or even really useful) one.

    In the situation as presented (the Scorpion one, not the Hugh one), the Faustian bargain was IMO kinda justified. Destroying 8472 would've been neither justified nor well motivated, since at the time they were only responding to the Borg and not a known threat to others per-se (Harry's inevitable suffering notwithstanding: remember that the Borg were the only "outsiders" they'd encountered up to that point).

    I do agree with the posters who said 7 should've stayed more borgified. BOBW and FC kinda left me with the impression that the assimilation process was too invasive for shipboard medical facilities alone to fix. Maybe not full-drone, since they were able to de-gunk Picard a bit in BOBW, but instead just stuck with second-stage implant removal makeup she had at the end of the ep.

    But apparently having a pin-up on the crew was way more important than having the show be a bit more intelligent. Given how VOY was written generally, that's really all you'd expect anyway.

    Haven't seen the Hugh ep in a long time, so I don't remember the particulars or what all their options really were.
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    connectamabob wrote: »
    Well... that kinda gets into the definition of "technically alive", which once you actually start trying to pin it down turns out to be much more of an intuitive "I know it when I see it" distinction than a technical (or even really useful) one.

    That's my point exactly. It doesn't matter whether the Borg are alive or not, it doesn't matter what rights they have, they're a menace that only seeks to consume and destroy. That in and of itself necessitates their destruction.
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    maxvitormaxvitor Member Posts: 2,213 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Janeway's actions were not justified, sacrificing another species just to get a short cut home should damn her utterly, she could have bidden her time, left well enough alone and let 8472 clear a path for her which it was doing quite effectively. But then there were a lot of scenarios where common sense was left at the door, they wouldn't have even been stuck in the Delta quadrant if she'd just left a timed explosive hidden on the Keepers array, they go home, array goes boom, end of story.
    The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.
    If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
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    chokopop1chokopop1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kes say (When she was in contact with the Undine (Or Species 8472, whatever you prefer) that they told her: "The weak shall perish" and "Your galaxy will be purged." Which doesn't only mean the Borg, but everyone else aswell. Which then leads to the conclusion that the Undine were a bigger threat to the galaxy than the Borg.

    I could be wrong though, been a while since I've seen VOY.
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    sandormen123sandormen123 Member Posts: 862 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    maxvitor wrote: »
    Janeway's actions were not justified, sacrificing another species just to get a short cut home should damn her utterly, she could have bidden her time, left well enough alone and let 8472 clear a path for her which it was doing quite effectively. But then there were a lot of scenarios where common sense was left at the door, they wouldn't have even been stuck in the Delta quadrant if she'd just left a timed explosive hidden on the Keepers array, they go home, array goes boom, end of story.
    The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.

    Fwiw, One doesn't have to be teenager, nor male (if that matters) to enjoy bimbos in catsuits... :P
    /Floozy
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    maxvitor wrote: »
    The primary reason for deborgifying Seven was because that makeup is painful to wear, and having to wear it consistently for several seasons could to lead to serious skin problems, but that doesn't justify her ending up as a bimbo in a catsuit, that was thrown in to appeal to the teenage male demographic, stuff like that is bound to happen when the producers are more interested in the Neilson index than in telling an intelligent story.
    To be fair, I remember reading an interview years ago with Jeri Ryan where she said that the costume/prosthetics pressed on her neck, and she blacked out on set (probably why they modified it to the partial de-assimilation) but yeah, absolutely no justification for her winding up in the catsuit... None of the Borg children wound up in catsuits, they immediately wore civilian clothing (and to be honest, I always rather liked Icheb's sweaters :D ) I understand that she was hired to boost ratings, but that's no reason to degrade the woman and treat her like a piece of meat... (I feel the same way about Jolene Blalock's treatment)
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    jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    chokopop1 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kes say (When she was in contact with the Undine (Or Species 8472, whatever you prefer) that they told her: "The weak shall perish" and "Your galaxy will be purged." Which doesn't only mean the Borg, but everyone else aswell. Which then leads to the conclusion that the Undine were a bigger threat to the galaxy than the Borg.

    I could be wrong though, been a while since I've seen VOY.

    Your not, I remember that. You have a point
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    There was no place on voyager for a borg
    Live long and Prosper
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    kamiyama317kamiyama317 Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I thought the Borg plot line in Voyager was great, but I like anything to do with Borg in general. I don't understand the hate that a lot of this community feels for them. If they were removed, they would have to come up with some other super-powerful evil race hell-bent on our destruction. I for one, would prefer the Borg over some other far uglier race like the Undine. Cyborgs just look cool.

    Also I would like to point out Seven wasn't the first to break the mold an not wear a uniform. Kira in DS9 didn't, and Counselor Troi in TNG didn't - and she was Starfleet!
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    kamiyama317 wrote: »
    I thought the Borg plot line in Voyager was great, but I like anything to do with Borg in general. I don't understand the hate that a lot of this community feels for them. If they were removed, they would have to come up with some other super-powerful evil race hell-bent on our destruction. I for one, would prefer the Borg over some other far uglier race like the Undine. Cyborgs just look cool.
    My beef wasn't with the presence of the Borg, I knew that was coming from Voyager's first day in the Delta Quardrant. My beef was that they took a drone and turned her into a bridge bunny for nothing more than ratings. Good writing will also draw viewers... My inlaws are hardly the typical demographic for Big Bang Theory and Two Broke Girls, yet the love them both, because of the quality of the writing.
    kamiyama317 wrote: »
    Also I would like to point out Seven wasn't the first to break the mold an not wear a uniform. Kira in DS9 didn't, and Counselor Troi in TNG didn't - and she was Starfleet!
    Kira was a member of the Bajoran Militia... She wore the appropriate uniform till she was commissioned into Starfleet, and then, she wore a Starfleet uniform.

    Agreed, Troi did get away with wearing civilian clothes on duty for a time (but they were always dresses, never a figure-hugging catsuit like Jeri and Jolene got sewn into...) but when Jellico was assigned as Captain, he politely informed her that he expected officers to wear uniform, and she never again wore her civilian clothes on duty... Picard let her get away with it, but it certainly wasn't 'standard practice' for all females in the fleet ;)
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    farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    chokopop1 wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Kes say (When she was in contact with the Undine (Or Species 8472, whatever you prefer) that they told her: "The weak shall perish" and "Your galaxy will be purged." Which doesn't only mean the Borg, but everyone else aswell. Which then leads to the conclusion that the Undine were a bigger threat to the galaxy than the Borg.

    I could be wrong though, been a while since I've seen VOY.

    Your right she did say that. After she saw what their thoughts was. They was out to kill everything. After they dealt with the Borg.
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    sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    kamiyama317 wrote: »
    I thought the Borg plot line in Voyager was great, but I like anything to do with Borg in general. I don't understand the hate that a lot of this community feels for them. If they were removed, they would have to come up with some other super-powerful evil race hell-bent on our destruction. I for one, would prefer the Borg over some other far uglier race like the Undine. Cyborgs just look cool.

    Also I would like to point out Seven wasn't the first to break the mold an not wear a uniform. Kira in DS9 didn't, and Counselor Troi in TNG didn't - and she was Starfleet!

    The Borg are not "super powerful"
    they are super lame
    they always were

    half a dozen men with chainsaws could de-assimilate an entire cube because borg physically fight like girls
    Live long and Prosper
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    chokopop1chokopop1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    farmallm wrote: »
    Your right she did say that. After she saw what their thoughts was. They was out to kill everything. After they dealt with the Borg.

    Exactly. And if Janeway didn't stop them, who then? The Borg apparently weren't strong enough to defeat them, so Janeway made a "Deal with the devil". In my opinion, it was justified. The Borg are like bugs. Annoying but controllable. The Undine would be unstoppable if they decided to launch a full scale attack on our universe. You saw what just one of their ships could do against a Borg Cube, whereas the federation failed with 40 ships (Wolf 359).
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    psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    chokopop1 wrote: »
    Exactly. And if Janeway didn't stop them, who then? The Borg apparently weren't strong enough to defeat them, so Janeway made a "Deal with the devil". In my opinion, it was justified. The Borg are like bugs. Annoying but controllable. The Undine would be unstoppable if they decided to launch a full scale attack on our universe. You saw what just one of their ships could do against a Borg Cube, whereas the federation failed with 40 ships (Wolf 359).

    Exactly.

    If she hadn't helped the Borg, the Undine would have wiped them out (as well as every innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire). And then every living being the the galaxy would be subject to their wrath. By driving them out, Janeway saved the entire galaxy.

    Too bad the Borg survived, but it was a necessary evil.
    Save the Foundry!
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    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    psycoticvulcan wrote: »
    Exactly.

    If she hadn't helped the Borg, the Undine would have wiped them out (as well as every innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire). And then every living being the the galaxy would be subject to their wrath. By driving them out, Janeway saved the entire galaxy.

    Too bad the Borg survived, but it was a necessary evil.

    I'm not so sure about that. The Undine don't strike me as conquerors, or a war like species. Even if they are capable of leveling continents, they always struck in small numbers, preferring infiltration and sabotage. After the Undine trashed the Borg, I'm not so sure they would go on to conquer the Galaxy. I doubt they would have much use for it.
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    chokopop1chokopop1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    psycoticvulcan wrote: »
    Exactly.

    If she hadn't helped the Borg, the Undine would have wiped them out (as well as every innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire). And then every living being the the galaxy would be subject to their wrath. By driving them out, Janeway saved the entire galaxy.

    Too bad the Borg survived, but it was a necessary evil.

    Exactly. I'd much rather face the Borg than the Undine.
    centersolace wrote: »
    I'm not so sure about that. The Undine don't strike me as conquerors, or a war like species. Even if they are capable of leveling continents, they always struck in small numbers, preferring infiltration and sabotage. After the Undine trashed the Borg, I'm not so sure they would go on to conquer the Galaxy. I doubt they would have much use for it.

    Well, they said "Your galaxy will be purged". Maybe they're not "conquerors" but they felt threatened by our galaxy, after the Borg invaded them. The "The weak shall perish" part and "Your galaxy will be purged" doesn't exactly strike me as a decleration of peace.
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    chokopop1 wrote: »
    Well, they said "Your galaxy will be purged". Maybe they're not "conquerors" but they felt threatened by our galaxy, after the Borg invaded them. The "The weak shall perish" part and "Your galaxy will be purged" doesn't exactly strike me as a decleration of peace.

    Purged from what? The Borg? I welcome that prospect. ;)

    The only business the Undine had with our galaxy (and our universe for that matter) was the Borg. After they hung them on a pike, what business would they have? They strike me as a people focused on efficiency and habit. All the kinks get ironed out. After they destroyed the Borg, I think they would have gone home.
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    psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    centersolace wrote: »
    Purged from what? The Borg? I welcome that prospect. ;)

    The only business the Undine had with our galaxy (and our universe for that matter) was the Borg. After they hung them on a pike, what business would they have? They strike me as a people focused on efficiency and habit. All the kinks get ironed out. After they destroyed the Borg, I think they would have gone home.

    You're forgetting "The weak shall perish". If the Borg qualify as weak, I think most other races do as well.
    Save the Foundry!
    NJ9oXSO.png
    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
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    centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    psycoticvulcan wrote: »
    You're forgetting "The weak shall perish". If the Borg qualify as weak, I think most other races do as well.

    Other races don't go around TRIBBLE the universe in the name of perfection. :)
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    chokopop1chokopop1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    psycoticvulcan wrote: »
    You're forgetting "The weak shall perish". If the Borg qualify as weak, I think most other races do as well.

    This.

    Plus, "Your galaxy will be purged" doesn't just qualify the Borg. Unless the whole galaxy consists of Borg, in which case... What did I miss?
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    marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Perhaps, 'The Weak' is how the Undine refered to the Borg... I agree with the above assessment, that once they'd trashed the Borg, they would most likely have returned to fluidic space.
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