wrong it will significantly wreck pve. know what? i've pvp"d with that setup and i ended up getting killed more than anyone else. why do you guys hafta cry, every () time someone gets a tiny edge??? pvp has a lot more issues than "oooh, lets complain, that guy is op!!!
pvp need some system work not all game item nerfs. i have a great idea, the minute anyone enters pvp, all powers, all consoles, all doffs lock out and all ya got are raw engines, shields, and guns, that should make ya happy.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
My view one it? Pve was fine when Tricobalts were damn near useless, and it will be fine after the nerf. Seriously, even nerfed the things are better in pve than they were originally, you could always go back to firing one at a time and dropping one tricobalt TRIBBLE behind your ship when facing the borg.
I know, it might be hard and a little frightning to remember what the other buttons on your tray do, but pve will still be fairly easy for you. I joke of course..sort of.
Seriously though, they are not going to suck as bad as they did when they came into the game originally, and if you can not remember what that was like, lucky you!
My view one it? Pve was fine when Tricobalts were damn near useless, and it will be fine after the nerf. Seriously, even nerfed the things are better in pve than they were originally, you could always go back to firing one at a time and dropping one tricobalt TRIBBLE behind your ship when facing the borg.
I know, it might be hard and a little frightning to remember what the other buttons on your tray do, but pve will still be fairly easy for you. I joke of course..sort of.
Seriously though, they are not going to suck as bad as they did when they came into the game originally, and if you can not remember what that was like, lucky you!
I agree with your point, which is why I asked that poster how he thought nerfing tric mines would wreck PvE.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
If you mean you would like numbers and set-up to be provided in mathematical terms, ok, i'll go with my fleet, and parse and test. And no, i don't one shot cubes and other pve opponents. That only works when they are already down around 40% or better and are weakened by defense de-buffs which i apply. Most of the time when I try to time the release of beta dispersal with trico's the team has already killed the pve opponent, and the trico's explode in empty space. So in the interest of "whining" like YOU pointed out... It depends ultimately upon the personal skills, NOT the equipment. (i don't mind denigrating myself, especially if its to prove my argument through you.) why nerf the tricos and beta disp if it takes skill to use it right, and even then you dont "one-shot" opponents, especially in pvp. Priority target? it was my fleet-mates and we were testing tactics, btw, they have some very good methods of neutralizing the trico beta disp. My point was that you guys cry about anything that seems to be an edge at all in pvp instead of finding a way to defeat it, which my fleet-mates found, (i wasn't the only one using the trico-beta disp in the pvp matches i spoke of.
So, yeah, look for my "intellectually organized" discourse replete with all relevant data, and hopefully that will meet with your approval.
whiningly yours ,
gojored.
[SIGPIC]tritrophic mutualism: we get a viable game experience, and perfect worlds new ai "ARC" dines on our zen[/SIGPIC]
wrong it will significantly wreck pve. know what? i've pvp"d with that setup and i ended up getting killed more than anyone else. why do you guys hafta cry, every () time someone gets a tiny edge??? pvp has a lot more issues than "oooh, lets complain, that guy is op!!!
pvp need some system work not all game item nerfs. i have a great idea, the minute anyone enters pvp, all powers, all consoles, all doffs lock out and all ya got are raw engines, shields, and guns, that should make ya happy.
how will it kill pve? if anything the pve'ers are killing the game. i hate to even pug cure elite with out some nub that says dont pop first cube because we dont have trics. wtf?!?!?! risa has been doing stf and had them tested for gozer. we never had to win an stf with trics. we always pop the first cube and move on. all trics do is make player with underpowered builds think they are awesome while using boarding partys. ive been parsing stf elites and always looking at what tacts are putting out for damage. im really supprised at how bad people really are. people need to get to the core of thier builds and work at it from the ground up. not just say look how aweome i am with 2 tric mines that i spit out every 30 secs.
i even argue with my fleet leader about the pvp side and the pve side. i use my pvp build in stf and get better numbers then people using beta 3 and torps. i just go in with full dhc and turrent load out. only thing i change on my build is going cannon scatter volley with a rapid fire when i do cure.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
My point was that you guys cry about anything that seems to be an edge at all in pvp instead of finding a way to defeat it
lol a tric hit for 200k is an awesome "edge". my jem is what 57k? my oddy is a bit over that. i can fly into the path of trics with full sheilds hp with omega and tt and get insta poped. i doubt im crying due to an "edge". i only cry because people with fail builds try to get into my skill level with op TRIBBLE so they can become ultimite kirk heroes with toys. they cry when it gets nerfed and they go back to being pro nubs again getting stomped in ques. really all the build advice is on fourms. it would help people from getting rolled over if people took the time to underatdn the build help and not be lazy but infact try to improve.
Join Date: Dec 2007Originally Posted by BROKEN1981
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
If you're seriously considering making mines only usefull against cannon fodder as a viable "solution" why keep mines in the game at all? Mines have a huge opportunity cost, so if you're dropping the gain you may as well just delete them altogether an save everyone the trouble.
You really want to make mines less deadly? Why not release a new updated MK 12 version of the Automated Point Defense console? Its a blue preorder reward but I don't think anyone would care if you released an upgraded version into the fleet or rep systems. Give people a counter to mines and destructable torpedoes but at a steep cost.
Edit: It'd have to be some sort of rapid fire APD console to mitigate dispersal pattern spam, lots of quick hits for relatively low damage... but then it really makes destructible torpedoes useless.
Just take mines out of the game already. Most people didn't use them even after you made them useful. So of course those people complained about it now that it was good and they didn't want to use it and you are making them worthless again. Bravo.
.... due to the fact that these weapons remain susceptible to counter, and come with a very steep cost of opportunity to be used effectively:
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.
Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny.
Excuse me but WHAT feedback? You mean the whining of the people that get killed by the tricobalt mines? Seriously?
Look at your own list again. The only reason why people get hit by mines is because they aren't watching out for them, they were too busy fighting something else to notice them being dropped or they simply did not have one of the DOZENS of means by which a mine spread can be neutralized.
After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:
The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):
- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)
- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
None of those options make any sense.
Reduce damage? Excuse me, but it takes a FOCUSED build to max out the mine damage. That means captain skillset, equipment and ship setup. Without any of the above the tricobalt mines are junk.
Reduce stealth value? Really? So that NPCs can insta-shoot them the moment they are dropped (and they do) and so players can see them 1km away and still die to them and whine harder?
point defense to npc? Even dumber. That would make all mines useless and very likely all drones/fighters as well since they apparently share the same priority in the AI.
Cooldown increase? What is 1 whole minute not bad enough? You do realize a cannon ship puts out far more damage in 1 minute than a tricobalt does right? And it doesnt have to be dropped in front of a moving enemy ship, doesnt require flying skill to PUT it in its flight path, cant be shot down and more amazingly, doesnt fly super slow.
You want to make tricobalts less of a bang? Here's a suggestion: Tie their damage output to the projectile specialization + subspace decompiler skill.
If only 9 pnts in projectile spec and none in subspace then 50% of current mine damage.
Easy enough, requires the most valuable commodity: skill points AND no one has the right to whine about dying to these mines given their massive current counters PLUS this.
You know what I dont get? Most of the people opposed to the nerf..still suggest they are useless and they are easy to counter. If that is the case, why use them? why even argue about if they need a nerf? Wost part is, "It will wreck pve", well if they are so bad and difficult to get them to fire off properly then why use them?
Answer: They are in need of a nerf. The more some one argues about how weak or difficult it is to use the higher the chance its a bit imbalanced. If they were this hard to use, and weak, there would not be the large amount of Tric bombers there is currently in pvp.
And just to get a handle on what people are saying I decided to Tric my ship out, full on with the Temporal sci ship and my fleet mate with the Temporal destroyer, and went into some stfs, both elite and normal. In addition after that we decided to go with escorts.
In both cases they were so simple to use, even too simple. Did we one shot everything between us? No, but we did a good job of face rolling over things that got hit by them.
Saying that these things are not in need of a little bit of tweaking is like saying the old Viral Matrix was just fine. They dont need to be flattened by nerfs but they do need adjusting.
If you mean you would like numbers and set-up to be provided in mathematical terms, ok, i'll go with my fleet, and parse and test. And no, i don't one shot cubes and other pve opponents. That only works when they are already down around 40% or better and are weakened by defense de-buffs which i apply. Most of the time when I try to time the release of beta dispersal with trico's the team has already killed the pve opponent, and the trico's explode in empty space. So in the interest of "whining" like YOU pointed out... It depends ultimately upon the personal skills, NOT the equipment. (i don't mind denigrating myself, especially if its to prove my argument through you.) why nerf the tricos and beta disp if it takes skill to use it right, and even then you dont "one-shot" opponents, especially in pvp. Priority target? it was my fleet-mates and we were testing tactics, btw, they have some very good methods of neutralizing the trico beta disp. My point was that you guys cry about anything that seems to be an edge at all in pvp instead of finding a way to defeat it, which my fleet-mates found, (i wasn't the only one using the trico-beta disp in the pvp matches i spoke of.
So, yeah, look for my "intellectually organized" discourse replete with all relevant data, and hopefully that will meet with your approval.
whiningly yours ,
gojored.
I was not really demanding full data sets or anything. It was just that you stated that nerfing trics would wreck PvE, and you did not elaborate any further about your reasons for making that statement. This was what I meant by 'whining', which in retrospect may have been too strong a term. In my opinion, tric mines are rarely used, but when they are, they take very large chunks out of the NPCs' health that is apparently beyond what the devs intended. Therefore, fixing this would hardly 'wreck' PvE.
I do see your argument now. I take it that you say that trics do need some personal skill to be used effectively and hence they should not be nerfed? Based on the statements of others in this thread, trics do require some skill. However, the skill level required is lower as compared to the level needed for other tactics. Hence, I believe that a nerf is necessary to bring the aforementioned skill requirement in line with other methods.
I withdraw that statement about priority targeting, as it was a simple guess based on my experience against tric users. Tric users, in my observation, tend to have built their ships fairly badly in the queues, so I overgeneralised. Sorry about that one.
And yes, I can certainly beat tric mines. EWP and Scatter Volley, with BFI in a pinch usually do the trick for me. However, I feel that something that can push you over the survivability cliff if not destroy you outright in one hit is on the overpowered side. Nevertheless, the further nerfs suggested by the devs are, in my opinion, a bit over the top. All I want to see is the fixing of the crit-one-crit-all bug.
As for the one-shot, I believe that taking out 40% of a cube's strength is pretty heavy, and IMO overpowered in the context of PvE. As for PvP, the tric mines can most certainly one-shot even good PvP players, going by my experience.
I always love the counter, you can shoot them down. Due to inefficiencies in the UI we pavpers have 2 choices a clutter of all targettable items or inability to tab target the when you turn the "reticule" for all items except ships off. Then there is the issue that all players of STO have to have the latest greatest PC. I am running a robust rigg that can handle STO but I still shoot invisible torps, mines disappear in warp plasma, I still can't see tractor beams sometimes. So to cut down on UI lag I turned off the "reticules" for pets and spam in general but now I cannot target target spam unless I am faw'ing, or CSV, or torp spread.
On a side note it looks like I will not be on for a awhile my updater is borked and all the supposed fixes don't work.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Was more aimed at the general 'doom and gloom' of the whole discussion as well as adding my own 2 plat worth to what you already had said
From where I sit the "doom and gloom" has more to do with Cryptic being unwilling to deal with the actual issues involved with the Tric bombing (DPB, chain crits) while at the same time putting up potential "solutions" that would carry considerable collateral damage (the point defense option for example) above and beyond the mine-laying primary target.
From where I sit the "doom and gloom" has more to do with Cryptic being unwilling to deal with the actual issues involved with the Tric bombing (DPB, chain crits) while at the same time putting up potential "solutions" that would carry considerable collateral damage (the point defense option for example) above and beyond the mine-laying primary target.
Mmmmmmyeah, cause the stuff that pretty much comes up in every thread on the matter has been ignored for stuff that...mmmmmmnah, never came up in any thread I remember seeing.
I've got an idea... how about you just Nerf the mines in PVP... that's where the problem originated!
My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-
there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.
This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!
gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too
I've got an idea... how about you just Nerf the mines in PVP... that's where the problem originated!
My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-
there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.
This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!
gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too
Not Happy
Okay, here is what you're not understanding. The Devs didn't nerf them because of PvPers alone. They don't want PvE players 1 shotting 1 million HP NPCs such as gateways in STF's, or Tactical Cubes or any other NPC. It was being used more by PvE players as an exploit, not as a legitimate tactic. You guys were completely bypassing mission steps, you got it nerfed, not us. We just brought it to their attention, something you weren't willing to do because it took away your "I-Win" buttons, oh my! You were exploiting bugs to achieve results the Devs never intended. That is all.
Oh btw, Most PvP teams or any group of 5 PvPers can finish Elite STF's in a matter of 5-7 minutes without resorting to cheap tactics. Just saying.
The fastest Infected Space Elite I was in so far was a 4-Man KDF plus me. No Tricobalts were used, just the KDF P2W consoles. The final Tac cube was destroyed with 9:56 left on the optional timer. How is it that Tricobalts are making these missions too easy? My mines never detonated as the targets were dead before the mines activated? I am just wondering why the KDF OP tactics in STFs are not a problem? Anyways, whatever.
In PvP I rarely hit anything with Tricobalt mines, but when I do it can result in the only kill made by my pug team. (No, I do not fly the Temporal ships) I do not see that as a big OP ability.
I can understand not wanting players with no skill being able to one-shot experts with these, but I do not see this happening as experts avoid them. I also understand that experts can exploit P2W consoles to make tricobalts very nasty. Maybe that is the bigger problem. (Temporal ship)
However they adjust them is fine with me, I can adjust and adapt.
By the way, Cap Horizon, which ones are the bad guys?
Okay, here is what you're not understanding. The Devs didn't nerf them because of PvPers alone. They don't want PvE players 1 shotting 1 million HP NPCs such as gateways in STF's, or Tactical Cubes or any other NPC. It was being used more by PvE players as an exploit, not as a legitimate tactic. You guys were completely bypassing mission steps, you got it nerfed, not us. We just brought it to their attention, something you weren't willing to do because it took away your "I-Win" buttons, oh my! You were exploiting bugs to achieve results the Devs never intended. That is all.
Oh btw, Most PvP teams or any group of 5 PvPers can finish Elite STF's in a matter of 5-7 minutes without resorting to cheap tactics. Just saying.
That's alot of Exaggeration.. -.- the average hit i've got from 3-4 Tri-Mines is 80k-100k hp WITH Crit!
Nobody in the history of the game will get a "1 million HP" 1 shot 1kill
That's alot of Exaggeration.. -.- the average hit i've got from 3-4 Tri-Mines is 80k-100k hp WITH Crit!
Nobody in the history of the game will get a "1 million HP" 1 shot 1kill
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I was referencing the multiple videos I have seen of teams coordinating Tric Mines and DPB to bybass parts of the mission completely, allowing them to complete the mission without killing Nanite Transformers/Generators and such. That's all. I'm just tired of having PvE carebears come in here to yell at us for getting them nerfed when PvE exploitation was a much bigger motivator for Cryptic.
edit: I'm not actually sure of the HP numbers on things like the Gateway and Tac Cubes, I just used 1 million as an arbitrary number to represent that the aforementioned NPC's are just HP bags and aren't really difficult.
"[12/25 12:30] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: This just in:
[12/25 12:30] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Buffed to hell, u can survive a 1/2 speced Tricbalt Attack
[12/25 12:31] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Abative Armor, Brace for imapct, HE 2, Pol H 2, and ull take about 30k dmg
[12/25 12:31] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: [3:29] [Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 4590 (131544) Kinetic Damage to Vegetable0.
[12/25 12:32] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: i had a 99.6% resist to survive with 6k hull left
[12/25 12:33] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: [1:29] Zyro deals 4590 (131544) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.
[12/25 12:34] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Counter to tricobalts= 99.6% resist
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: i had a 91.6% resist at the time of impact
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Justin@BROKEN1981: [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: [3:35] [Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 14657 (175034) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Vegetable0.
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Justin@BROKEN1981: ok got the info will post
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: That was part of an DPB 3
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: so that 1 disabled the armor, the other 3 did their respective 200k All critz
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: i love how they all groupcrit
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: according to mine, not 1 got thru the armour, they all hit it, just they were combined enough to kill me anyway
Comments
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
My view one it? Pve was fine when Tricobalts were damn near useless, and it will be fine after the nerf. Seriously, even nerfed the things are better in pve than they were originally, you could always go back to firing one at a time and dropping one tricobalt TRIBBLE behind your ship when facing the borg.
I know, it might be hard and a little frightning to remember what the other buttons on your tray do, but pve will still be fairly easy for you. I joke of course..sort of.
Seriously though, they are not going to suck as bad as they did when they came into the game originally, and if you can not remember what that was like, lucky you!
I agree with your point, which is why I asked that poster how he thought nerfing tric mines would wreck PvE.
Or was your post addressed to that person?
If you mean you would like numbers and set-up to be provided in mathematical terms, ok, i'll go with my fleet, and parse and test. And no, i don't one shot cubes and other pve opponents. That only works when they are already down around 40% or better and are weakened by defense de-buffs which i apply. Most of the time when I try to time the release of beta dispersal with trico's the team has already killed the pve opponent, and the trico's explode in empty space. So in the interest of "whining" like YOU pointed out... It depends ultimately upon the personal skills, NOT the equipment. (i don't mind denigrating myself, especially if its to prove my argument through you.) why nerf the tricos and beta disp if it takes skill to use it right, and even then you dont "one-shot" opponents, especially in pvp. Priority target? it was my fleet-mates and we were testing tactics, btw, they have some very good methods of neutralizing the trico beta disp. My point was that you guys cry about anything that seems to be an edge at all in pvp instead of finding a way to defeat it, which my fleet-mates found, (i wasn't the only one using the trico-beta disp in the pvp matches i spoke of.
So, yeah, look for my "intellectually organized" discourse replete with all relevant data, and hopefully that will meet with your approval.
whiningly yours
gojored.
how will it kill pve? if anything the pve'ers are killing the game. i hate to even pug cure elite with out some nub that says dont pop first cube because we dont have trics. wtf?!?!?! risa has been doing stf and had them tested for gozer. we never had to win an stf with trics. we always pop the first cube and move on. all trics do is make player with underpowered builds think they are awesome while using boarding partys. ive been parsing stf elites and always looking at what tacts are putting out for damage. im really supprised at how bad people really are. people need to get to the core of thier builds and work at it from the ground up. not just say look how aweome i am with 2 tric mines that i spit out every 30 secs.
i even argue with my fleet leader about the pvp side and the pve side. i use my pvp build in stf and get better numbers then people using beta 3 and torps. i just go in with full dhc and turrent load out. only thing i change on my build is going cannon scatter volley with a rapid fire when i do cure.
lol a tric hit for 200k is an awesome "edge". my jem is what 57k? my oddy is a bit over that. i can fly into the path of trics with full sheilds hp with omega and tt and get insta poped. i doubt im crying due to an "edge". i only cry because people with fail builds try to get into my skill level with op TRIBBLE so they can become ultimite kirk heroes with toys. they cry when it gets nerfed and they go back to being pro nubs again getting stomped in ques. really all the build advice is on fourms. it would help people from getting rolled over if people took the time to underatdn the build help and not be lazy but infact try to improve.
If you're seriously considering making mines only usefull against cannon fodder as a viable "solution" why keep mines in the game at all? Mines have a huge opportunity cost, so if you're dropping the gain you may as well just delete them altogether an save everyone the trouble.
You really want to make mines less deadly? Why not release a new updated MK 12 version of the Automated Point Defense console? Its a blue preorder reward but I don't think anyone would care if you released an upgraded version into the fleet or rep systems. Give people a counter to mines and destructable torpedoes but at a steep cost.
Edit: It'd have to be some sort of rapid fire APD console to mitigate dispersal pattern spam, lots of quick hits for relatively low damage... but then it really makes destructible torpedoes useless.
Answer: They are in need of a nerf. The more some one argues about how weak or difficult it is to use the higher the chance its a bit imbalanced. If they were this hard to use, and weak, there would not be the large amount of Tric bombers there is currently in pvp.
And just to get a handle on what people are saying I decided to Tric my ship out, full on with the Temporal sci ship and my fleet mate with the Temporal destroyer, and went into some stfs, both elite and normal. In addition after that we decided to go with escorts.
In both cases they were so simple to use, even too simple. Did we one shot everything between us? No, but we did a good job of face rolling over things that got hit by them.
Saying that these things are not in need of a little bit of tweaking is like saying the old Viral Matrix was just fine. They dont need to be flattened by nerfs but they do need adjusting.
Was more aimed at the general 'doom and gloom' of the whole discussion as well as adding my own 2 plat worth to what you already had said
I was not really demanding full data sets or anything. It was just that you stated that nerfing trics would wreck PvE, and you did not elaborate any further about your reasons for making that statement. This was what I meant by 'whining', which in retrospect may have been too strong a term. In my opinion, tric mines are rarely used, but when they are, they take very large chunks out of the NPCs' health that is apparently beyond what the devs intended. Therefore, fixing this would hardly 'wreck' PvE.
I do see your argument now. I take it that you say that trics do need some personal skill to be used effectively and hence they should not be nerfed? Based on the statements of others in this thread, trics do require some skill. However, the skill level required is lower as compared to the level needed for other tactics. Hence, I believe that a nerf is necessary to bring the aforementioned skill requirement in line with other methods.
I withdraw that statement about priority targeting, as it was a simple guess based on my experience against tric users. Tric users, in my observation, tend to have built their ships fairly badly in the queues, so I overgeneralised. Sorry about that one.
And yes, I can certainly beat tric mines. EWP and Scatter Volley, with BFI in a pinch usually do the trick for me. However, I feel that something that can push you over the survivability cliff if not destroy you outright in one hit is on the overpowered side. Nevertheless, the further nerfs suggested by the devs are, in my opinion, a bit over the top. All I want to see is the fixing of the crit-one-crit-all bug.
As for the one-shot, I believe that taking out 40% of a cube's strength is pretty heavy, and IMO overpowered in the context of PvE. As for PvP, the tric mines can most certainly one-shot even good PvP players, going by my experience.
On a side note it looks like I will not be on for a awhile my updater is borked and all the supposed fixes don't work.
From where I sit the "doom and gloom" has more to do with Cryptic being unwilling to deal with the actual issues involved with the Tric bombing (DPB, chain crits) while at the same time putting up potential "solutions" that would carry considerable collateral damage (the point defense option for example) above and beyond the mine-laying primary target.
Mmmmmmyeah, cause the stuff that pretty much comes up in every thread on the matter has been ignored for stuff that...mmmmmmnah, never came up in any thread I remember seeing.
My tricobalt mines are useless now thanks to PVPers... i don't PVP! and i don't know why PVEers should have to put up with people hoplessly whining about how things are too powerful. -.-
there will be a counter argument soon saying how they've been nerfed too much.
This is a big mistake... a little too much nerfing, Tricobalts are suppose to be POWERFUL Subspace weapons!
gonna remove my tricobalts now and replace them with Photon mines... as they will probably do more damage... meaning the TCD Mk XII purple is useless now too
Not Happy
Okay, here is what you're not understanding. The Devs didn't nerf them because of PvPers alone. They don't want PvE players 1 shotting 1 million HP NPCs such as gateways in STF's, or Tactical Cubes or any other NPC. It was being used more by PvE players as an exploit, not as a legitimate tactic. You guys were completely bypassing mission steps, you got it nerfed, not us. We just brought it to their attention, something you weren't willing to do because it took away your "I-Win" buttons, oh my! You were exploiting bugs to achieve results the Devs never intended. That is all.
Oh btw, Most PvP teams or any group of 5 PvPers can finish Elite STF's in a matter of 5-7 minutes without resorting to cheap tactics. Just saying.
Hyperbole is hyperbole.
In PvP I rarely hit anything with Tricobalt mines, but when I do it can result in the only kill made by my pug team. (No, I do not fly the Temporal ships) I do not see that as a big OP ability.
I can understand not wanting players with no skill being able to one-shot experts with these, but I do not see this happening as experts avoid them. I also understand that experts can exploit P2W consoles to make tricobalts very nasty. Maybe that is the bigger problem. (Temporal ship)
However they adjust them is fine with me, I can adjust and adapt.
By the way, Cap Horizon, which ones are the bad guys?
That's alot of Exaggeration.. -.- the average hit i've got from 3-4 Tri-Mines is 80k-100k hp WITH Crit!
Nobody in the history of the game will get a "1 million HP" 1 shot 1kill
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I was referencing the multiple videos I have seen of teams coordinating Tric Mines and DPB to bybass parts of the mission completely, allowing them to complete the mission without killing Nanite Transformers/Generators and such. That's all. I'm just tired of having PvE carebears come in here to yell at us for getting them nerfed when PvE exploitation was a much bigger motivator for Cryptic.
edit: I'm not actually sure of the HP numbers on things like the Gateway and Tac Cubes, I just used 1 million as an arbitrary number to represent that the aforementioned NPC's are just HP bags and aren't really difficult.
[12/25 12:30] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Buffed to hell, u can survive a 1/2 speced Tricbalt Attack
[12/25 12:31] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Abative Armor, Brace for imapct, HE 2, Pol H 2, and ull take about 30k dmg
[12/25 12:31] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: [3:29] [Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 4590 (131544) Kinetic Damage to Vegetable0.
[12/25 12:32] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: i had a 99.6% resist to survive with 6k hull left
[12/25 12:33] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: [1:29] Zyro deals 4590 (131544) Kinetic Damage to you with Mine Explosion.
[12/25 12:34] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Counter to tricobalts= 99.6% resist
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: i had a 91.6% resist at the time of impact
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Justin@BROKEN1981: [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: [3:35] [Combat (Self)] Your Mine Explosion deals 14657 (175034) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Vegetable0.
[12/25 12:36] [OrganizedPVP] Justin@BROKEN1981: ok got the info will post
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: That was part of an DPB 3
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: so that 1 disabled the armor, the other 3 did their respective 200k All critz
[12/25 12:37] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: i love how they all groupcrit
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: according to mine, not 1 got thru the armour, they all hit it, just they were combined enough to kill me anyway
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: Lol yea
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: they all hit at the same time
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Vegetable0@Vegetable0: :P
[12/25 12:38] [OrganizedPVP] Zyro@BrokenMirror: if i angled it diferently i bet id be able to make 2 kill u"
Tricobalt mines are clearly not OP. :P
yeah trics dont need a nerf lmao
Nooo! I still need my trics to hold my own against evil nasty Borg.