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Use of the term "Sir"

hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Ten Forward
So this is a general question.

I have always believed that referring to a Senior Officer as "Sir" is the proper address for both males and females in most military situations.

However, an increasing number of comments I get on Foundry missions run the gamut of "My character isn't a male. Dont call me Sir" , "Not all characters are men. be more gender neutral", "Sir" isn't how I would refer to my female officer" , etc etc etc


So what is it ?

I believe that addressing a senior officer as "Sir" is in fact , gender neutral.

Other opinions ?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • onenonlydrockonenonlydrock Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    From what I've heard, it's more proper to call a female officer 'Ma'am'.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thratch1thratch1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    "Sir" is highly context dependent these days. It's appropriate to address women as "sir" in armed services and sometimes even political positions, but not in civilian or private sector.

    Since the vast majority of players come from a civilian life, they see "Sir" a little differently than someone in the military might.

    Considering how much traction it's gaining as a gender-neutral honorific in English, though, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes almost entirely gender-neutral in a couple hundred years.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • darimunddarimund Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    im a navy vet, female officers in the navy are referred to as ma'am. However, this wasn't always so. All officers were addressed as Sir before a big PC move hit the US Military. I *think* some foreign military still address female officers as Sir... i'm a little fuzzy on the details but this goes back to the middle age where knights were/are addressed as Sir. I think Star Trek just rolled with the Sir thing because at the time of TNG, calling an officer ma'am wasn't a requirement... I dunno, may be wrong about that but it sounds about right.
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKogc14hHtQ


    Star Trek II

    Spock : "Very Well, MISTER Saavik. you may Clear all moorings"

    "Take her out MISTER Saavik"



    From Military Website :

    However, recruits of the United States Marine Corps and United States Coast Guard address both male and female commissioned and non-commissioned officers as "sir" in basic training, especially drill instructors (USMC) and company commanders (USCG). Enlisted members of the United States Military always address Commissioned Officers as "sir". During training "sir" is implied and will be replaced by the rank and grade of those addressed after initial indoctrination.


    I remain confused.
  • captainrevo1captainrevo1 Member Posts: 3,948 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Sir if fine. it might be cutting it a bit fine at times but sometimes players expect foundry authors to jump through hoops for them.

    if you start using the rank command people will get upset that they roleplay a captain even though their rank is admiral. you use captain, they will get upset you dont use their real rank. honestly it never ends.
  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Ah, here it is...

    I knew I'd remembered something about this from Voyager. :P
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Sir is correct in the military

    some (specifically Janeway ) female officers prefer maam

    its incorrect but she prefered it

    Mister is a neutral term as well

    An officer in command of a vessel can always be addressed as "Captain" regardless of rank

    and anyone saying "im female not male" probably isn't
    Live long and Prosper
  • oldkirkfanoldkirkfan Member Posts: 1,263 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Jon, I've played your Foundry Missions. They are very good. Don't change anything.

    As to "Sir" or not to "Sir", someone once told me...

    "Don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweaty stuff".

    The only way you're going to make everyone happy, is to develop a program to recognize either the characters sex or rank.

    btw... My wife, who is U.S. Army, says Sir is the proper address for an Officer. Male OR female.
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    kiralyn wrote: »
    Ah, here it is...

    I knew I'd remembered something about this from Voyager. :P

    From the thing you quoted :


    Janeway: "Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don't like being addressed as 'sir.'"


    This would seem to indicate that SIR is indeed Starfleet protocol. Being addressed otherwise was a personal choice by Janeway. As authors we cannot account for your "personal choices" about how you want to be addressed.

    It IS seemingly "Starfleet Protocol" to call senior officers, SIR. So, it seems a safe approach to use established Starfleet Protocol.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I am a CAPTAIN. I want to be referred to as such. :mad:
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I am a CAPTAIN. I want to be referred to as such. :mad:

    Right.
    Just like Janeway that is YOUR choice.

    If we cater to that one personal choice, we leave out anyone who doesn't feel that way.

    So, instead of just a useless post, how about telling us how we could make that happen ?

    If we cannot accomodate every single player's personal choice, isn't it best to go with established cannon protocol ?

    Just continuing to stir discussion, I just don't know what your post added.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited December 2012
    It seems to be quite popular in England to refer to any superior as Sir, not just in military use. My line manager (Female) is refered to as sir.
    If in doubt use Captain, but Sir can serve both genders equally.
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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    hippiejon wrote: »
    Right.
    Just like Janeway that is YOUR choice.

    If we cater to that one personal choice, we leave out anyone who doesn't feel that way.

    So, instead of just a useless post, how about telling us how we could make that happen ?

    If we cannot accomodate every single player's personal choice, isn't it best to go with established cannon protocol ?

    Just continuing to stir discussion, I just don't know what your post added.

    Divorce the level and rank system. Make it so you can choose wether to be a Admiral or Captain or whatnot.
  • trahltrahl Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    sollvax wrote: »
    Sir is correct in the military

    some (specifically Janeway ) female officers prefer maam

    its incorrect but she prefered it

    Mister is a neutral term as well

    An officer in command of a vessel can always be addressed as "Captain" regardless of rank

    and anyone saying "im female not male" probably isn't

    No, she said "Ma'am will work in a pinch, but I prefer Captain."
    Taking gender neutralness to its logical conclusion.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The easy way to work around your issue, is either adressing them with their Game rank, or "Captain", as anyone in command of a ship, is generally legally referred to as Captain.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • monkeybone13monkeybone13 Member Posts: 4,640 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Let me guess: this is another "bring back handsome phaser guy" thread?

    I'm starting to get sick of you starting threads that are discussing issues based on gender. Ever since that "elf/vulcan" picture/wallpaper showed up you've been carrying on and on about it and how the game is becoming oversexualized. Give it a rest.

    If you want to push your morals and political correctness on people, go join a christian forum or something. Keep it out of STO.

    That was uncalled for...

    The OP asks for help to avoid bad ratings on poor judgement, and you're telling him to p*ss off?
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    hippiejon wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKogc14hHtQ


    Star Trek II

    Spock : "Very Well, MISTER Saavik. you may Clear all moorings"

    "Take her out MISTER Saavik"
    I remain confused.

    I always loved this about TWoK. All of the TMP movies just have such a "submarine-like" feel to them.

    And Saavik is the hottest Vulcan ever. TRIBBLE T'Pol. She can blow herself out of an injector coil. Kirstie Alley + TWoK uniform + Vulcan stuff = hnnngh...
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    trahl wrote: »
    No, she said "Ma'am will work in a pinch, but I prefer Captain."
    Taking gender neutralness to its logical conclusion.

    I believe her phrasing was "it's not crunch time yet Ensign" the first time Harry screwed it up and called her Sir.
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I believe her phrasing was "it's not crunch time yet Ensign" the first time Harry screwed it up and called her Sir.

    Harry called her Sir.

    She said she didn't like to be called Sir

    Harry says Ma'am

    She says "Ma'am is acceptable, but only in a crunch."

    Later, Harry says "Ma'am" and she says "It's not crunch time yet, but I'll let you know."
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    @monkeybone13:

    Lolwut?

    It's a perfectly legit (and harmless) question. He just want's to know how to fine-tune dialog to balance narrative immersion with player variety. I have no idea what he's done or what attitudes he's represented in other threads, but I see no PC agenda implied here by this thread.

    Back on topic:
    From what I remember of the of the shows/movies, "sir" is lore-correct for addressing both male and female officers of higher rant, and "Ma'am" was just a personal preference by Janeway. But that's been covered better by others. the real question I guess, is do you go with something gender neutral but not always lore or dialog flow friendly to appease players who don't remember the shows, or do you stick to the lore and write off any complaints as the players own look-out? I'd be inclined to the latter, myself, but I guess that's a matter of personal preference and/or style, and doesn't have a real "right" answer.
  • beerstickmanbeerstickman Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If people are getting upset about being called "Sir" in a mission, Then just start calling them "Honey", or "Toots". That will bring them back to reality..:D
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  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I played one (quite good) mission where I was consistantly addressed as "Commander"
    Live long and Prosper
  • shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    It's not possible - within the context of Foundry limitations - to please everybody. I mean, for starters, how do you handle us Andorians? (Besides "with care".) You binary-gender species just don't understand us. :P

    Ahem. Anyway. Given that it's not possible to put in some context-dependent-personal-preference-rank-and-gender-appropriate tag, the best thing to do... is to go with the established protocol as far as we know it. "Sir" seems to be the way to do it, really.

    My feeling is that anyone who gets bent out of shape over that issue... is probably going to find something else to get bent out of shape over, anyway. There's no pleasing some people.
    8b6YIel.png?1
  • sollvaxsollvax Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Andorians are easy just use the rank
    Live long and Prosper
  • claransaclaransa Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    sollvax wrote: »
    Sir is correct in the military

    and anyone saying "im female not male" probably isn't

    ^this

    The official military protocal is "Sir" at least as of circa 1991, and though starfleet would deny it they are a military organization.
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Ignoring monkeybones and thanking everyone else for staying on the topic, which is indeed trying to figure out how to balance dialog when writing for a very diverse audience.

    It has always struck me as starfleet protocol as presented did indeed adress Senior Officers as 'Sir', yet i am seeing a large number of comments like "not all officers are male" etc etc.

    It seems that there is varied opinion on this matter.
    Seemed a fair question.

    The janeway quote that "despite starfleet protocol" she didn't like being called Sir, is enough for me to consider it Star Trek canon that protocol is indeed that way.

    At least for my missions.
    I'll be sticking with a variety of Sir, and Addressed by Rank.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Hehe... I like the thing with chan and thaan. It's a cool aspect of the race.

    Enh... I typically avoid using those terms myself, I use the rank more often, or just "Captain". After all, all player characters are Ship Captains regardless of their actual rank.

    Real world uses Sir or Ma'am depending on gender.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If people are getting upset about being called "Sir" in a mission, Then just start calling them "Honey", or "Toots". That will bring them back to reality..:D

    You are absolutely the winner today.

    that is all.
  • hippiejonhippiejon Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    wunjee wrote: »
    And Saavik is the hottest Vulcan ever. TRIBBLE T'Pol. She can blow herself out of an injector coil. Kirstie Alley + TWoK uniform + Vulcan stuff = hnnngh...

    I have not read a statement more full of truth than this one today.
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