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Use of the term "Sir"
hippiejon
Member Posts: 1,581 Arc User
So this is a general question.
I have always believed that referring to a Senior Officer as "Sir" is the proper address for both males and females in most military situations.
However, an increasing number of comments I get on Foundry missions run the gamut of "My character isn't a male. Dont call me Sir" , "Not all characters are men. be more gender neutral", "Sir" isn't how I would refer to my female officer" , etc etc etc
So what is it ?
I believe that addressing a senior officer as "Sir" is in fact , gender neutral.
Other opinions ?
I have always believed that referring to a Senior Officer as "Sir" is the proper address for both males and females in most military situations.
However, an increasing number of comments I get on Foundry missions run the gamut of "My character isn't a male. Dont call me Sir" , "Not all characters are men. be more gender neutral", "Sir" isn't how I would refer to my female officer" , etc etc etc
So what is it ?
I believe that addressing a senior officer as "Sir" is in fact , gender neutral.
Other opinions ?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Since the vast majority of players come from a civilian life, they see "Sir" a little differently than someone in the military might.
Considering how much traction it's gaining as a gender-neutral honorific in English, though, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes almost entirely gender-neutral in a couple hundred years.
Star Trek II
Spock : "Very Well, MISTER Saavik. you may Clear all moorings"
"Take her out MISTER Saavik"
From Military Website :
However, recruits of the United States Marine Corps and United States Coast Guard address both male and female commissioned and non-commissioned officers as "sir" in basic training, especially drill instructors (USMC) and company commanders (USCG). Enlisted members of the United States Military always address Commissioned Officers as "sir". During training "sir" is implied and will be replaced by the rank and grade of those addressed after initial indoctrination.
I remain confused.
if you start using the rank command people will get upset that they roleplay a captain even though their rank is admiral. you use captain, they will get upset you dont use their real rank. honestly it never ends.
I knew I'd remembered something about this from Voyager. :P
some (specifically Janeway ) female officers prefer maam
its incorrect but she prefered it
Mister is a neutral term as well
An officer in command of a vessel can always be addressed as "Captain" regardless of rank
and anyone saying "im female not male" probably isn't
As to "Sir" or not to "Sir", someone once told me...
"Don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweaty stuff".
The only way you're going to make everyone happy, is to develop a program to recognize either the characters sex or rank.
btw... My wife, who is U.S. Army, says Sir is the proper address for an Officer. Male OR female.
From the thing you quoted :
Janeway: "Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don't like being addressed as 'sir.'"
This would seem to indicate that SIR is indeed Starfleet protocol. Being addressed otherwise was a personal choice by Janeway. As authors we cannot account for your "personal choices" about how you want to be addressed.
It IS seemingly "Starfleet Protocol" to call senior officers, SIR. So, it seems a safe approach to use established Starfleet Protocol.
Right.
Just like Janeway that is YOUR choice.
If we cater to that one personal choice, we leave out anyone who doesn't feel that way.
So, instead of just a useless post, how about telling us how we could make that happen ?
If we cannot accomodate every single player's personal choice, isn't it best to go with established cannon protocol ?
Just continuing to stir discussion, I just don't know what your post added.
If in doubt use Captain, but Sir can serve both genders equally.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Divorce the level and rank system. Make it so you can choose wether to be a Admiral or Captain or whatnot.
No, she said "Ma'am will work in a pinch, but I prefer Captain."
Taking gender neutralness to its logical conclusion.
That was uncalled for...
The OP asks for help to avoid bad ratings on poor judgement, and you're telling him to p*ss off?
I always loved this about TWoK. All of the TMP movies just have such a "submarine-like" feel to them.
And Saavik is the hottest Vulcan ever. TRIBBLE T'Pol. She can blow herself out of an injector coil. Kirstie Alley + TWoK uniform + Vulcan stuff = hnnngh...
I believe her phrasing was "it's not crunch time yet Ensign" the first time Harry screwed it up and called her Sir.
Harry called her Sir.
She said she didn't like to be called Sir
Harry says Ma'am
She says "Ma'am is acceptable, but only in a crunch."
Later, Harry says "Ma'am" and she says "It's not crunch time yet, but I'll let you know."
Lolwut?
It's a perfectly legit (and harmless) question. He just want's to know how to fine-tune dialog to balance narrative immersion with player variety. I have no idea what he's done or what attitudes he's represented in other threads, but I see no PC agenda implied here by this thread.
Back on topic:
From what I remember of the of the shows/movies, "sir" is lore-correct for addressing both male and female officers of higher rant, and "Ma'am" was just a personal preference by Janeway. But that's been covered better by others. the real question I guess, is do you go with something gender neutral but not always lore or dialog flow friendly to appease players who don't remember the shows, or do you stick to the lore and write off any complaints as the players own look-out? I'd be inclined to the latter, myself, but I guess that's a matter of personal preference and/or style, and doesn't have a real "right" answer.
Ahem. Anyway. Given that it's not possible to put in some context-dependent-personal-preference-rank-and-gender-appropriate tag, the best thing to do... is to go with the established protocol as far as we know it. "Sir" seems to be the way to do it, really.
My feeling is that anyone who gets bent out of shape over that issue... is probably going to find something else to get bent out of shape over, anyway. There's no pleasing some people.
^this
The official military protocal is "Sir" at least as of circa 1991, and though starfleet would deny it they are a military organization.
It has always struck me as starfleet protocol as presented did indeed adress Senior Officers as 'Sir', yet i am seeing a large number of comments like "not all officers are male" etc etc.
It seems that there is varied opinion on this matter.
Seemed a fair question.
The janeway quote that "despite starfleet protocol" she didn't like being called Sir, is enough for me to consider it Star Trek canon that protocol is indeed that way.
At least for my missions.
I'll be sticking with a variety of Sir, and Addressed by Rank.
Enh... I typically avoid using those terms myself, I use the rank more often, or just "Captain". After all, all player characters are Ship Captains regardless of their actual rank.
Real world uses Sir or Ma'am depending on gender.
My character Tsin'xing
You are absolutely the winner today.
that is all.
I have not read a statement more full of truth than this one today.