I don't mind changes to the Tric Mines, I just have a few worries:
1. The timeship consoles are really a major problem, because they freeze everybody, preventing ANY chance of a counter whatsoever, essentially guaranteeing a kill while using very little skill and effort. More than any changes to tric mines themselves, THIS needs to be looked at.
Even with these changes, the timeships will still have usage of these at their current levels. If they do stop using tric mines, they can still use something else. Maybe it won't be soon, but there WILL be something they'll use to a far far greater effect than they should all because of a console.
2. Chain critting. While not a player's fault, the fact that they can and do, is partially what makes them so wicked. I think that's the whole reason why tric torpedos don't hit mega-hard without being buffed somehow, because all that instant damage along with the disable and repel is why they were kept that way in the first place.
3. Things really won't change much even by doing all this. People will still probably tric bomb. They may not do as much damage, but they can still be buffed by consoles and more importantly, TAC BUFFs (including, extra crit chance and severity).
That's something to keep in mind, between tac buffs and tric consoles, the actual damage and crits won't really change all that much to be honest. It'll still be easy to hit 6 figure damages.
4. The nerf-bat might be swung too hard. This is particularly important to me, because I feel all strategies should be at least fairly even to use, in both risk and reward. It shouldn't be that whole teams of tric bombers can utterly destroy anything and everything in their way in PvE and PvP without slowing down. That's a huge issue.
BUT, if these are nerfed too hard, as others said, then they become little more than the joke they were at the get-go. No one would use em, and the whole point of the revamped mines would be kind of moot, at least for trics.
However, I don't think that bigger ships should get a PDS though. That would just ruin using any mines or HY torps at all. But maybe a more adaptive approach might be better.
Say...give a lot of larger enemies Polarize Hull (ESPECIALLY Borg cubes). That'd make them immune to tractors, while also allowing for a nice, free chunk of damage resistance.
A simpler way, would just be to make all enemies more resistant in PvE stuff, the more you used something. I don't mean like more resistance to cannon fire, but more like the disable from them, give the enemies more resistance the more you use it. And this would be a map-wide thing. So if you tric mine a borg cube, the next thing you try and use it on, would not be as affected.
That could also include the damage from ONLY trics (to prevent near-immunity to damage or anything). It might not remove tric bombing PvE stuff, but it'd at least make people strategize a little more.
I have more to say, but I'll hold for now.
The biggest thing though, is the time ship consoles, and the chain critting. Those two things are the major problems, not so much the other stuff.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I don't mind changes to the Tric Mines, I just have a few worries:
1. The timeship consoles are really a major problem, because they freeze everybody, preventing ANY chance of a counter whatsoever, essentially guaranteeing a kill while using very little skill and effort. More than any changes to tric mines themselves, THIS needs to be looked at.
Even with these changes, the timeships will still have usage of these at their current levels. If they do stop using tric mines, they can still use something else. Maybe it won't be soon, but there WILL be something they'll use to a far far greater effect than they should all because of a console.
2. Chain critting. While not a player's fault, the fact that they can and do, is partially what makes them so wicked. I think that's the whole reason why tric torpedos don't hit mega-hard without being buffed somehow, because all that instant damage along with the disable and repel is why they were kept that way in the first place.
3. Things really won't change much even by doing all this. People will still probably tric bomb. They may not do as much damage, but they can still be buffed by consoles and more importantly, TAC BUFFs (including, extra crit chance and severity).
That's something to keep in mind, between tac buffs and tric consoles, the actual damage and crits won't really change all that much to be honest. It'll still be easy to hit 6 figure damages.
4. The nerf-bat might be swung too hard. This is particularly important to me, because I feel all strategies should be at least fairly even to use, in both risk and reward. It shouldn't be that whole teams of tric bombers can utterly destroy anything and everything in their way in PvE and PvP without slowing down. That's a huge issue.
BUT, if these are nerfed too hard, as others said, then they become little more than the joke they were at the get-go. No one would use em, and the whole point of the revamped mines would be kind of moot, at least for trics.
However, I don't think that bigger ships should get a PDS though. That would just ruin using any mines or HY torps at all. But maybe a more adaptive approach might be better.
Say...give a lot of larger enemies Polarize Hull (ESPECIALLY Borg cubes). That'd make them immune to tractors, while also allowing for a nice, free chunk of damage resistance.
A simpler way, would just be to make all enemies more resistant in PvE stuff, the more you used something. I don't mean like more resistance to cannon fire, but more like the disable from them, give the enemies more resistance the more you use it. And this would be a map-wide thing. So if you tric mine a borg cube, the next thing you try and use it on, would not be as affected.
That could also include the damage from ONLY trics (to prevent near-immunity to damage or anything). It might not remove tric bombing PvE stuff, but it'd at least make people strategize a little more.
I have more to say, but I'll hold for now.
The biggest thing though, is the time ship consoles, and the chain critting. Those two things are the major problems, not so much the other stuff.
Yeah, Tac's being able to buff Torps is stupid.
The major problem I see with increasing NPC Damage resitence is in timed optional missions in STF's. Cryptic would probably have to increase the time limit to compensate but I don't think anyone wants to be in an STF any longer than 6-10 minutes. Not to mention would make killing probes in KA and Assimilated Raptors/Warships in Cure a real pain, to say nothing of The Hive.
Personally I vote for "Tricobalt mines are not affected by dispersal patterns" ...
Just like the Hargh'Peng Torp, which is not affected by Torpedo Skills, but still worth using because of it's insanely high damage, this would become the case with trico mines.
No other complicated nerfing would be neccesary IMHO.
We've been watching and listening to the large amount of feedback that's come from the PvP community, and elsewhere, in regards to the astonishing amount of damage Tricobalt Mines have become capable of dealing since the Mine Revamp, and the recent Mine Console bug fix. For the most part, we held off on making any further changes to their functionality until more feedback and hands-on testing occurred, due to the fact that these weapons remain susceptible to counter, and come with a very steep cost of opportunity to be used effectively:
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.
Despite these drawbacks, the amount of feedback we receive on a daily basis has kept the issue on our radar, and under tight scrutiny. After a recent series of internal tests, we've decided that a few changes are warranted, and will soon be carried out:
The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):
- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)
- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
The few changes you mentioned that you're implementing seem good enough to start. Adding in the splash damage is debatable. If we got splash damage from tricos can we expect splash from plasma mines? We already know both HY versions will hit friendly targets as well as the target.
I think the changes to dispersal pattern beta if universal may kill all mines in game. Why would I ever launch 16 transphasic or quantum mines when they damage is only double 4 of them? There was a time when NO ONE in any event PvP or PvE was running mines -- destroying DPB ruins the equipment and the BOFF slots. Why not make it so CRF3 only does 2x as much damage as your normal cannons? If it's not universal and this change only affects Tricobalts you're just pandering to the tricobalt haters and it's clear where Cryptic and PWE's intentions lie in taking the game forward: allowing a small but vocal group of players to control the game experience for everyone who's only evidence for anything being broken is anecdotal at best.
As far as the NPCs I'm not terribly worried about it, but I am curious why you need to implement this considering that the Borg Queen already does an excellent job of taking down mines. Can't you just give other NPC dreadnaughts the same AI that she has? It would at least make for more fun fleet alert missions haha.
The major problem I see with increasing NPC Damage resitence is in timed optional missions in STF's. Cryptic would probably have to increase the time limit to compensate but I don't think anyone wants to be in an STF any longer than 6-10 minutes. Not to mention would make killing probes in KA and Assimilated Raptors/Warships in Cure a real pain, to say nothing of The Hive.
Hmm...I dunno, I feel more along the lines of it'd make debuffing much more of a necessary thing, then just trying to DPS your way through everything without pause or care in an STF.
Making other classes more worthwhile, because a sci could use SNB if a boss suddenly starts unloading large amounts of buffs (see: Donatra), and then Sensor scan, maybe a Gravitic Anchor, etc. So the boss is weakened, and suddenly everyone can really start unloading on it.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Could I possibly throw out a suggestion that might be a bit easier to apply without breaking multiple aspects of the game?
Why not just add resistances to types of kinetic damage and have them scale up with more points into kinetic resistance?
For example... if I have 100 points into kinetic resistance, it should reduce the mine damage in half or possibly even more (depending on the way the figures drop) which would effectively fix the PvP aspects without breaking the PvE aspects.
This works in 2 fronts since it would mean those that don't invest into kinetic resist would need to keep an eye out on mines as their resistance isn't as high so they need other ways to take care of the issue and those that do invest points could take a hit if they put the points into it.
This coupled with fixing crit linking would be a nice solution I'd think.
I think that fixing the Dispersal critical problem and reducing Tricobalt mine damage to half and their cooldown to half would be good without the need to nerf other mines that don't need it.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
just please make sure when you mention the auto defense battery on the npc's that this wasnt the pvp communites evil ploy to inhibit their "fun".
Nope, let them know who blew the whistle, STFs are already too bloody easy, let them at least do them properly!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Oh my dear!
excuse me please.
i picture many people here like biting on their lower lips while staring from 5 inches on their monitor while CRF spamming and not caring about defense!!!
(just kidding)^^
cry nerf and let slip the dogs of boredom
Defense is EASY. Mostly noobs and people who better do some first person shooter flame here! Excuse me. But this game is not only for CRF freaks. Its for tacticians. Some TBR or Grav well, APO or evasive maneuvers do the trick. Its not too difficult. Render the trics useless does not seem to be apropriate.
Rather nerf the CRF spammers to encourage them to think of something creative.
Whoever read this thread already can be fully capable of rendering any tricobalt build totally useless.
Tric spammers are not tacticians. They are PvE heroes who can't play worth a damn, so they use the currently insane damage and crit bonuses of Trics with DPB to get kills they otherwise wouldn't get. :P
Btw, any of the people complaining about Trics in this thread, especially the fleets, could use those setups and troll the hell out of the queues, basically shutting them down.
They don't do that because it's lame and because they don't want to ruin what little community still plays the game.
Why is Cryptic pandering to PVP players who last I knew represented less than 10-20% of the player base? I vote for option 3 which is to leave it alone.
Why stop here? Science ships need some attention, balance the skills so science ships can better compete with other classes in PVE, STF's, and PVP. I get tired of getting attitude from other players when I warp into an instance with a Sci ship, players think because I am not DPSing to the level of Escort that I can't pull my own weight.
I wouldn't even mind making these mines ineffective or useless if I could respec for free but you have to pay for that. Why can't we have a patch once every 4 months that will balance/buff/nerf skills and give a free respec token with it or least give players a chance to save up to buy tokens? I don't mind doing my fair share to buy stuff to support the game but being expected to pick up the tab because a FEW players in the game are complaining about mines is unfair.
"Live Long and Prosper but always carry a fully charged phaser, just in case!". Arrr'ow
Why is Cryptic pandering to PVP players who last I knew represented less than 10-20% of the player base? I vote for option 3 which is to leave it alone.
Why stop here? Science ships need some attention, balance the skills so science ships can better compete with other classes in PVE, STF's, and PVP. I get tired of getting attitude from other players when I warp into an instance with a Sci ship, players think because I am not DPSing to the level of Escort that I can't pull my own weight.
I wouldn't even mind making these mines ineffective or useless if I could respec for free but you have to pay for that. Why can't we have a patch once every 4 months that will balance/buff/nerf skills and give a free respec token with it or least give players a chance to save up to buy tokens? I don't mind doing my fair share to buy stuff to support the game but being expected to pick up the tab because a FEW players in the game are complaining about mines is unfair.
Could you explain why you're in the PvP boards if you don't care about it?
The Dev tracker is the devil! Point of fact, most of these folk wouldn't even notice a change if not for it or word of mouth.
Seriously though, I think it's important to get as many voices in on a conversation as possible. It could really be better for the game as a whole. Unfortunately, for that to work all of the voices chiming in would need to actually care enough to educate themselves about how what works and why.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Could you explain why you're in the PvP boards if you don't care about it?
Because what goes on in this forum has large effects elsewhere in the game. See: Photonic Shockwave, Danube pets, the Omega shield heal, now Tric Mines, among others.
I was under the impression that the core problem of (Tricobalt) mines was the phenomenon of "linked crits", i.e. if one mine of a dispersal pattern crits, they all crit.
Tric spammers are not tacticians. They are PvE heroes who can't play worth a damn, so they use the currently insane damage and crit bonuses of Trics with DPB to get kills they otherwise wouldn't get. :P
Btw, any of the people complaining about Trics in this thread, especially the fleets, could use those setups and troll the hell out of the queues, basically shutting them down.
They don't do that because it's lame and because they don't want to ruin what little community still plays the game.
Trics are not the issue, it's the chained crits from DPB. To say that there is no tact involved is an overstatement when most PvP'rs now keep an eye out for them and know when to hit CSV, TBR, FAW, APO, Aceton Assimilators, AMS, EM, EWP, VTR.
Personally, I find the Jem Attack Ship a bigger issue because it makes lousy PvP'rs seem respectable, marginally decent PvP'rs competative and once exceptional PvP'rs look godly. It's training wheels that scale upward with player skill. It's not available to everyone and those who have it will defend it to the death because they'd never fly anything else.
One crit to rule them all is the biggest problem. That needs to be fixed, then let trics sit for 3 months and see where they are.
In the short term, what if DPB spread out way more? So that the entire batch would be unlikely to hit the same target, or if it did there would be a delay since there's still travel time. After the first one hits you even a half a second is enough to pop an aoe or stomp on the gas until you can manually target the rest of its friends. This would also leave the option for cubes and gates to still be targeted with the entire pattern since they're huge.
Not a perfect solution, but it could lessen the chances of an entire cluster hitting a player.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Personally, I find the Jem Attack Ship a bigger issue because it makes lousy PvP'rs seem respectable, marginally decent PvP'rs competative and once exceptional PvP'rs look godly. It's training wheels that scale upward with player skill. It's not available to everyone and those who have it will defend it to the death because they'd never fly anything else.
Nah, JHAS are great ships, I wish I had one. But even a well piloted one, and I've been up against quite a few, won't have the overall spike capacity of DPB3 tric ownage. And a proper team that uses all of the tricks of the trade: confuse, debuffs, disables, holds + DPB trics, would roll the hell out of a team that wasn't using them.
Someone here posted a video earlier where these guys were getting murdered by DPB Tric mines.
It's ridiculous. Look at that, 2 man team just owning a 5 man with Trics.
And those aren't noobs there, you have Jedinikon on there too.
There's no way in hell that a 2 man team of JHAS with pure burst would demolish a 5 man team unless they were the worst players of all time, that had the most utterly fail builds ever as well.
Nah, JHAS are great ships, I wish I had one. But even a well piloted one, and I've been up against quite a few, won't have the overall spike capacity of DPB3 tric ownage. And a proper team that uses all of the tricks of the trade: confuse, debuffs, disables, holds + DPB trics, would roll the hell out of a team that wasn't using them.
Someone here posted a video earlier where these guys were getting murdered by DPB Tric mines.
It's ridiculous. Look at that, 2 man team just owning a 5 man with Trics.
And those aren't noobs there, you have Jedinikon on there too.
There's no way in hell that a 2 man team of JHAS with pure burst would demolish a 5 man team unless they were the worst players of all time, that had the most utterly fail builds ever as well.
Again, it's the DPB Crit Chain that's deadly but unless the player is using the Tippler Console in the Vesta with Trics or you happen to be facing an all-tric premade (which generally is unlikely), there's absolutely no reason a PvPr with any common sense should be hit by those things, especially in a JHAS when they can be out of combat range within 1.5 seconds. It's the arrogant pilot who thinks they can park on their target's TRIBBLE at close range and unload a fully buffed CRF without any repurcussions.
Videos can be staged and don't provide a reliable concensus.
Again, it's the DPB Crit Chain that's deadly but unless the player is using the Tippler Console in the Vesta with Trics or you happen to be facing an all-tric premade (which generally is unlikely), there's absolutely no reason a PvPr with any common sense should be hit by those things, especially in a JHAS when they can be out of combat range within 1.5 seconds. It's the arrogant pilot who thinks they can park on their target's TRIBBLE at close range and unload a fully buffed CRF without any repurcussions.
Videos can be staged and don't provide an overall assessment of PvP as a whole.
Of course DPB is the problem. That's why they're going to nerf it. I think Tric mines should be taken out of DPB functionality to what they were before. If you manage to crit someone with 'em, it should be considered a pleasant surprise because you did everything right and the target was too weak. They shouldn't wax anyone with full shields and resists up.
Of course DPB is the problem. That's why they're going to nerf it. I think Tric mines should be taken out of DPB functionality to what they were before. If you manage to crit someone with 'em, it should be considered a pleasant surprise because you did everything right and the target was too weak. They shouldn't wax anyone with full shields and resists up.
Remove them from DPB and they become utterly useless. At least with a Tric Torp, you can launch it just as your target's shields are about to go down. A Tric Mine takes about 5 seconds to deploy and arm.
Either remove a Tric Mine's ability damage shields or remove it's ability to function with DPB. Not both.
The chain crit is the ONLY issue that's outta whack with tric mines and DPB.
I understand there is an issue with Trics and PvP, but these changes kill any viable STF Tricobalt build. I currently run one toon with a tric build, and I've been saving up my zen for a vesta. I'm not sure if I will buy one, knowing these changes are inbound.
Having to use a Lt Cmd. Tact slot to deploy mines equal to 1.6 times a normal mine is not worth it, much less using a Cmd tact slot on another ship just to get 2 mines worth of dmg.
The true solution has been hit on here, you need to stop the chained crits, that would solve alot of the greif.
If these changes are implemented, then you should also consider reducing the cool-down to 30 seconds.
All these changes will do, is take Tricobalts out of the game again, much like it was the last time they were nerfed. Please just fix the actual problems with DPB, don't nerf the dmg, (and I mean just the chained crits, don't drop tricobalts from DPB again.) I was very disheartened after reading these changes.
Sollaf: Join date Sep 2009, Lifer. Disgruntled with the JHSS, my Bug feels less shiny now.
In the short term, what if DPB spread out way more? So that the entire batch would be unlikely to hit the same target, or if it did there would be a delay since there's still travel time. After the first one hits you even a half a second is enough to pop an aoe or stomp on the gas until you can manually target the rest of its friends. This would also leave the option for cubes and gates to still be targeted with the entire pattern since they're huge.
Dispersal Pattern Beta 2 and 1 actually don't spit the mines out very far. They are close and clustered together, where as Dispersal Pattern Beta 3 splits them up far enough to make them even deadlier because they are so much further apart. Granted it's not like it is with other mines being shot WAY out, it's still far enough to be noticeable.
As far as the proposed changes.. First note:
There is no Dispersal Pattern Alpha 3 player side, Borticus. Just FYI there.
The Proposed change where the dispersal pattern it's self reduces the damage the Tricobalt mines can produce at the base does seem like a good Band-Aid till the Software team can get the actual Crit issue for not just Tric mine + Dispersal Pattern beta (And only Dispersal Pattern Beta) but to all the effected abilities and effects. (Like EWP, for example)
If you are going to give NPC ships a point defense system, it should either have a Reduced Accuracy, or I agree with making it only able to target mines, or at least making Mines the priority target vs non Mines if possible.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I understand there is an issue with Trics and PvP, but these changes kill any viable STF Tricobalt build. I currently run one toon with a tric build, and I've been saving up my zen for a vesta. I'm not sure if I will buy one, knowing these changes are inbound.
Having to use a Lt Cmd. Tact slot to deploy mines equal to 1.6 times a normal mine is not worth it, much less using a Cmd tact slot on another ship just to get 2 mines worth of dmg.
The true solution has been hit on here, you need to stop the chained crits, that would solve alot of the greif.
If these changes are implemented, then you should also consider reducing the cool-down to 30 seconds.
All these changes will do, is take Tricobalts out of the game again, much like it was the last time they were nerfed. Please just fix the actual problems with DPB, don't nerf the dmg, (and I mean just the chained crits, don't drop tricobalts from DPB again.) I was very disheartened after reading these changes.
You see though, that's just it.
The fact that anybody can just make a tric build, without the slightest bit of strategy or work, then go into an STF and demolish it all is the whole point.
Trics are acting as little more than an...and I REALLY hate saying this, 'I win' button. You can go into STFs, drop trics, and everything dies, pretty much guaranteed.
That's nothing against you, but it honestly doesn't help players in the long run, if all they see is 'trics = winning'. Then they will apply that logic to other PvE stuff in the game, not really truly trying to learn or improve their gameplay at all, which won't bode well if this game ever gets more difficult PvE stuff (besides just Into the Hive and Hive Onslaught), or if they try and PvP.
If 'Joe Average' can make a tric build and head into PvP, thinking he's all that, and suddenly gets wasted by a premade stomping him into the ground, I REALLY doubt he's gonna be happy, but as we see too often on these forums, 'Joe Average' is gonna whine about being toasted and NOT want his trics nerfed.
Again, nothing on you at all. But if anyone can use trics, that means big-time PvPers can use trics as well.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
wrong it will significantly wreck pve. know what? i've pvp"d with that setup and i ended up getting killed more than anyone else. why do you guys hafta cry, every () time someone gets a tiny edge??? pvp has a lot more issues than "oooh, lets complain, that guy is op!!!
pvp need some system work not all game item nerfs. i have a great idea, the minute anyone enters pvp, all powers, all consoles, all doffs lock out and all ya got are raw engines, shields, and guns, that should make ya happy.
[SIGPIC]tritrophic mutualism: we get a viable game experience, and perfect worlds new ai "ARC" dines on our zen[/SIGPIC]
wrong it will significantly wreck pve. know what? i've pvp"d with that setup and i ended up getting killed more than anyone else. why do you guys hafta cry, every () time someone gets a tiny edge??? pvp has a lot more issues than "oooh, lets complain, that guy is op!!!
pvp need some system work not all game item nerfs. i have a great idea, the minute anyone enters pvp, all powers, all consoles, all doffs lock out and all ya got are raw engines, shields, and guns, that should make ya happy.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
My view one it? Pve was fine when Tricobalts were damn near useless, and it will be fine after the nerf. Seriously, even nerfed the things are better in pve than they were originally, you could always go back to firing one at a time and dropping one tricobalt TRIBBLE behind your ship when facing the borg.
I know, it might be hard and a little frightning to remember what the other buttons on your tray do, but pve will still be fairly easy for you. I joke of course..sort of.
Seriously though, they are not going to suck as bad as they did when they came into the game originally, and if you can not remember what that was like, lucky you!
Comments
1. The timeship consoles are really a major problem, because they freeze everybody, preventing ANY chance of a counter whatsoever, essentially guaranteeing a kill while using very little skill and effort. More than any changes to tric mines themselves, THIS needs to be looked at.
Even with these changes, the timeships will still have usage of these at their current levels. If they do stop using tric mines, they can still use something else. Maybe it won't be soon, but there WILL be something they'll use to a far far greater effect than they should all because of a console.
2. Chain critting. While not a player's fault, the fact that they can and do, is partially what makes them so wicked. I think that's the whole reason why tric torpedos don't hit mega-hard without being buffed somehow, because all that instant damage along with the disable and repel is why they were kept that way in the first place.
3. Things really won't change much even by doing all this. People will still probably tric bomb. They may not do as much damage, but they can still be buffed by consoles and more importantly, TAC BUFFs (including, extra crit chance and severity).
That's something to keep in mind, between tac buffs and tric consoles, the actual damage and crits won't really change all that much to be honest. It'll still be easy to hit 6 figure damages.
4. The nerf-bat might be swung too hard. This is particularly important to me, because I feel all strategies should be at least fairly even to use, in both risk and reward. It shouldn't be that whole teams of tric bombers can utterly destroy anything and everything in their way in PvE and PvP without slowing down. That's a huge issue.
BUT, if these are nerfed too hard, as others said, then they become little more than the joke they were at the get-go. No one would use em, and the whole point of the revamped mines would be kind of moot, at least for trics.
However, I don't think that bigger ships should get a PDS though. That would just ruin using any mines or HY torps at all. But maybe a more adaptive approach might be better.
Say...give a lot of larger enemies Polarize Hull (ESPECIALLY Borg cubes). That'd make them immune to tractors, while also allowing for a nice, free chunk of damage resistance.
A simpler way, would just be to make all enemies more resistant in PvE stuff, the more you used something. I don't mean like more resistance to cannon fire, but more like the disable from them, give the enemies more resistance the more you use it. And this would be a map-wide thing. So if you tric mine a borg cube, the next thing you try and use it on, would not be as affected.
That could also include the damage from ONLY trics (to prevent near-immunity to damage or anything). It might not remove tric bombing PvE stuff, but it'd at least make people strategize a little more.
I have more to say, but I'll hold for now.
The biggest thing though, is the time ship consoles, and the chain critting. Those two things are the major problems, not so much the other stuff.
Yeah, Tac's being able to buff Torps is stupid.
The major problem I see with increasing NPC Damage resitence is in timed optional missions in STF's. Cryptic would probably have to increase the time limit to compensate but I don't think anyone wants to be in an STF any longer than 6-10 minutes. Not to mention would make killing probes in KA and Assimilated Raptors/Warships in Cure a real pain, to say nothing of The Hive.
Been existant in TSI/god premades sense season1.
Just like the Hargh'Peng Torp, which is not affected by Torpedo Skills, but still worth using because of it's insanely high damage, this would become the case with trico mines.
No other complicated nerfing would be neccesary IMHO.
The few changes you mentioned that you're implementing seem good enough to start. Adding in the splash damage is debatable. If we got splash damage from tricos can we expect splash from plasma mines? We already know both HY versions will hit friendly targets as well as the target.
I think the changes to dispersal pattern beta if universal may kill all mines in game. Why would I ever launch 16 transphasic or quantum mines when they damage is only double 4 of them? There was a time when NO ONE in any event PvP or PvE was running mines -- destroying DPB ruins the equipment and the BOFF slots. Why not make it so CRF3 only does 2x as much damage as your normal cannons? If it's not universal and this change only affects Tricobalts you're just pandering to the tricobalt haters and it's clear where Cryptic and PWE's intentions lie in taking the game forward: allowing a small but vocal group of players to control the game experience for everyone who's only evidence for anything being broken is anecdotal at best.
As far as the NPCs I'm not terribly worried about it, but I am curious why you need to implement this considering that the Borg Queen already does an excellent job of taking down mines. Can't you just give other NPC dreadnaughts the same AI that she has? It would at least make for more fun fleet alert missions haha.
Hmm...I dunno, I feel more along the lines of it'd make debuffing much more of a necessary thing, then just trying to DPS your way through everything without pause or care in an STF.
Making other classes more worthwhile, because a sci could use SNB if a boss suddenly starts unloading large amounts of buffs (see: Donatra), and then Sensor scan, maybe a Gravitic Anchor, etc. So the boss is weakened, and suddenly everyone can really start unloading on it.
Why not just add resistances to types of kinetic damage and have them scale up with more points into kinetic resistance?
For example... if I have 100 points into kinetic resistance, it should reduce the mine damage in half or possibly even more (depending on the way the figures drop) which would effectively fix the PvP aspects without breaking the PvE aspects.
This works in 2 fronts since it would mean those that don't invest into kinetic resist would need to keep an eye out on mines as their resistance isn't as high so they need other ways to take care of the issue and those that do invest points could take a hit if they put the points into it.
This coupled with fixing crit linking would be a nice solution I'd think.
Nope, let them know who blew the whistle, STFs are already too bloody easy, let them at least do them properly!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
excuse me please.
i picture many people here like biting on their lower lips while staring from 5 inches on their monitor while CRF spamming and not caring about defense!!!
(just kidding)^^
cry nerf and let slip the dogs of boredom
Defense is EASY. Mostly noobs and people who better do some first person shooter flame here! Excuse me. But this game is not only for CRF freaks. Its for tacticians. Some TBR or Grav well, APO or evasive maneuvers do the trick. Its not too difficult. Render the trics useless does not seem to be apropriate.
Rather nerf the CRF spammers to encourage them to think of something creative.
Whoever read this thread already can be fully capable of rendering any tricobalt build totally useless.
Btw, any of the people complaining about Trics in this thread, especially the fleets, could use those setups and troll the hell out of the queues, basically shutting them down.
They don't do that because it's lame and because they don't want to ruin what little community still plays the game.
Why stop here? Science ships need some attention, balance the skills so science ships can better compete with other classes in PVE, STF's, and PVP. I get tired of getting attitude from other players when I warp into an instance with a Sci ship, players think because I am not DPSing to the level of Escort that I can't pull my own weight.
I wouldn't even mind making these mines ineffective or useless if I could respec for free but you have to pay for that. Why can't we have a patch once every 4 months that will balance/buff/nerf skills and give a free respec token with it or least give players a chance to save up to buy tokens? I don't mind doing my fair share to buy stuff to support the game but being expected to pick up the tab because a FEW players in the game are complaining about mines is unfair.
Co-Leader of Serenity's Grasp
Could you explain why you're in the PvP boards if you don't care about it?
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Seriously though, I think it's important to get as many voices in on a conversation as possible. It could really be better for the game as a whole. Unfortunately, for that to work all of the voices chiming in would need to actually care enough to educate themselves about how what works and why.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
Because what goes on in this forum has large effects elsewhere in the game. See: Photonic Shockwave, Danube pets, the Omega shield heal, now Tric Mines, among others.
Oh I'm sorry I didn't know I couldn't express my opinion in a PUBLIC forum.
Co-Leader of Serenity's Grasp
Trics are not the issue, it's the chained crits from DPB. To say that there is no tact involved is an overstatement when most PvP'rs now keep an eye out for them and know when to hit CSV, TBR, FAW, APO, Aceton Assimilators, AMS, EM, EWP, VTR.
Personally, I find the Jem Attack Ship a bigger issue because it makes lousy PvP'rs seem respectable, marginally decent PvP'rs competative and once exceptional PvP'rs look godly. It's training wheels that scale upward with player skill. It's not available to everyone and those who have it will defend it to the death because they'd never fly anything else.
In the short term, what if DPB spread out way more? So that the entire batch would be unlikely to hit the same target, or if it did there would be a delay since there's still travel time. After the first one hits you even a half a second is enough to pop an aoe or stomp on the gas until you can manually target the rest of its friends. This would also leave the option for cubes and gates to still be targeted with the entire pattern since they're huge.
Not a perfect solution, but it could lessen the chances of an entire cluster hitting a player.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Nah, JHAS are great ships, I wish I had one. But even a well piloted one, and I've been up against quite a few, won't have the overall spike capacity of DPB3 tric ownage. And a proper team that uses all of the tricks of the trade: confuse, debuffs, disables, holds + DPB trics, would roll the hell out of a team that wasn't using them.
Someone here posted a video earlier where these guys were getting murdered by DPB Tric mines.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVKA625XUf4&feature=plcp
It's ridiculous. Look at that, 2 man team just owning a 5 man with Trics.
And those aren't noobs there, you have Jedinikon on there too.
There's no way in hell that a 2 man team of JHAS with pure burst would demolish a 5 man team unless they were the worst players of all time, that had the most utterly fail builds ever as well.
Again, it's the DPB Crit Chain that's deadly but unless the player is using the Tippler Console in the Vesta with Trics or you happen to be facing an all-tric premade (which generally is unlikely), there's absolutely no reason a PvPr with any common sense should be hit by those things, especially in a JHAS when they can be out of combat range within 1.5 seconds. It's the arrogant pilot who thinks they can park on their target's TRIBBLE at close range and unload a fully buffed CRF without any repurcussions.
Videos can be staged and don't provide a reliable concensus.
Of course DPB is the problem. That's why they're going to nerf it. I think Tric mines should be taken out of DPB functionality to what they were before. If you manage to crit someone with 'em, it should be considered a pleasant surprise because you did everything right and the target was too weak. They shouldn't wax anyone with full shields and resists up.
Remove them from DPB and they become utterly useless. At least with a Tric Torp, you can launch it just as your target's shields are about to go down. A Tric Mine takes about 5 seconds to deploy and arm.
Either remove a Tric Mine's ability damage shields or remove it's ability to function with DPB. Not both.
The chain crit is the ONLY issue that's outta whack with tric mines and DPB.
Why??
I understand there is an issue with Trics and PvP, but these changes kill any viable STF Tricobalt build. I currently run one toon with a tric build, and I've been saving up my zen for a vesta. I'm not sure if I will buy one, knowing these changes are inbound.
Having to use a Lt Cmd. Tact slot to deploy mines equal to 1.6 times a normal mine is not worth it, much less using a Cmd tact slot on another ship just to get 2 mines worth of dmg.
The true solution has been hit on here, you need to stop the chained crits, that would solve alot of the greif.
If these changes are implemented, then you should also consider reducing the cool-down to 30 seconds.
All these changes will do, is take Tricobalts out of the game again, much like it was the last time they were nerfed. Please just fix the actual problems with DPB, don't nerf the dmg, (and I mean just the chained crits, don't drop tricobalts from DPB again.) I was very disheartened after reading these changes.
Dispersal Pattern Beta 2 and 1 actually don't spit the mines out very far. They are close and clustered together, where as Dispersal Pattern Beta 3 splits them up far enough to make them even deadlier because they are so much further apart. Granted it's not like it is with other mines being shot WAY out, it's still far enough to be noticeable.
As far as the proposed changes.. First note:
There is no Dispersal Pattern Alpha 3 player side, Borticus. Just FYI there.
The Proposed change where the dispersal pattern it's self reduces the damage the Tricobalt mines can produce at the base does seem like a good Band-Aid till the Software team can get the actual Crit issue for not just Tric mine + Dispersal Pattern beta (And only Dispersal Pattern Beta) but to all the effected abilities and effects. (Like EWP, for example)
If you are going to give NPC ships a point defense system, it should either have a Reduced Accuracy, or I agree with making it only able to target mines, or at least making Mines the priority target vs non Mines if possible.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
New team is two people? :P
You see though, that's just it.
The fact that anybody can just make a tric build, without the slightest bit of strategy or work, then go into an STF and demolish it all is the whole point.
Trics are acting as little more than an...and I REALLY hate saying this, 'I win' button. You can go into STFs, drop trics, and everything dies, pretty much guaranteed.
That's nothing against you, but it honestly doesn't help players in the long run, if all they see is 'trics = winning'. Then they will apply that logic to other PvE stuff in the game, not really truly trying to learn or improve their gameplay at all, which won't bode well if this game ever gets more difficult PvE stuff (besides just Into the Hive and Hive Onslaught), or if they try and PvP.
If 'Joe Average' can make a tric build and head into PvP, thinking he's all that, and suddenly gets wasted by a premade stomping him into the ground, I REALLY doubt he's gonna be happy, but as we see too often on these forums, 'Joe Average' is gonna whine about being toasted and NOT want his trics nerfed.
Again, nothing on you at all. But if anyone can use trics, that means big-time PvPers can use trics as well.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
pvp need some system work not all game item nerfs. i have a great idea, the minute anyone enters pvp, all powers, all consoles, all doffs lock out and all ya got are raw engines, shields, and guns, that should make ya happy.
You got killed more because you became the priority target. Nobody likes tric-based setups. That is, assuming you were competent in setting up your survival powers.
And it will significantly wreck PvE? How will changing things so that you can't oneshot NPCs be wrecking it?
If I am wrong, provide a counterpoint. Argue your point properly, or you're just whining.
My view one it? Pve was fine when Tricobalts were damn near useless, and it will be fine after the nerf. Seriously, even nerfed the things are better in pve than they were originally, you could always go back to firing one at a time and dropping one tricobalt TRIBBLE behind your ship when facing the borg.
I know, it might be hard and a little frightning to remember what the other buttons on your tray do, but pve will still be fairly easy for you. I joke of course..sort of.
Seriously though, they are not going to suck as bad as they did when they came into the game originally, and if you can not remember what that was like, lucky you!