We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
If you can couple that with moving dispersal patterns down a tier each so DPB 3 no longer requires the only CMD level Tac slot on a ship, maybe.
Can you just reduce the damage of Tricos in PvP?
Player ships only have 40-50k hull before resistances, that's why this is such a massive issue. It's not nearly as much of an issue against 1.5 to 2 million points of hull.
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
Dreadnought NPCs are the only ones worth using DPB + Trico mines on in the first place, and they almost universally all have BFAW standard.
If they then had a soft-counter perma PDS spam on top of that I'm pretty sure Tricos and Dispersal Patterns would disappear back into "bad power limbo" from where they recently emerged.
Maybe this is the time to push for NPCs that function more like player ships with player ship values and the ability to actually move and heal themselves and not float helplessly in space soaking damage through sheer, inordinate, amounts of hull and dealing their own 6 figure burst damage onto players.
Or alternatively working on separating PvE and PvP power values to allow for finer tuning for balance.
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.
The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):
- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.
- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)
- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
T*** ricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
Clarification to Borticus
Unfortunately, the mines when they're in vast numbers in use they're extremely difficult to effectively combat with generic builds. In which case, people need to reassess their builds before going into the queues.
In other words, I need to put on my tricobalt fighting style before going into the queues. If I run into a tricobalt bomber team, I may have success destroying their mines but not them. This is the pressing issue, people are fighting tric mines, not players in the queues.
Their lengthy cool downs are in junction with brace for impact and other anti mine abilities. Unfortunately, they are at par or fall short. Example: An entire team deploys mines after the team has used their brace for impact. Take reference from Bran, a target caller in TRH Teamspeak will call out for general "Brace for Impact" and the team will deploy due to an imminent tricobalt bombing. Thereafter, a few others lay mines and these abilities are either on cool down or aren't enough to combat the vast number of trics.
One mine brings down a shield facing, and stuns the target thus not allowing them to be able to hit any follow up defenses. The second mine hits, it either destroys you or it puts you in bad ship. However this occurs across the entire team, which means the dispensed heals already are exhausted just from the first two mines per target. There after come the third, fourth, and sometimes 5th mines onto each and every target in a match vs tricobalt premades. This is of course if none of the mines do any AOE, because the explosions from the 2nd mines are enough to finish off targets from AOE. The sacrifices made in their boff/doff/consoles is well off for the investment into a god hammer, it isn't a sacrifice at that point it's a game gene plugged into your NES.
Your generalized assessment about the mines is well mistaken, and very unfounded when considering PvP game play.
Feedback on Proposed Changes:
The proposed changes are a mediocre improvement to say the least. The proposed 10% damage reduction on each mine that hits for an average of 35,000 without critical damage is reduced to 31,500. This is hardly an improvement.
The damage variance nerf is a definite nerf, but the base damage of the mines still were enough even if they did not crit. Example, 35k hit destroyed a shield facing, another 35k brought you below 50% another mine destroys you, provided no AOE from the 1st and 2nd explosions didn't destroy you. Again the amounts of heals used such as hazards cool down is exceeded by tric mine deployment.
The deployment of these mines have evolved Borticus. They're now being hidden in theta radiation, warp plasma, and protected my aceton assimilators from energy weapon AOE. Also, the sheer tactics used, are whats confusing you. These mines aren't just laid out like some traps in some Acme cartoon, the player literally makes you immobile and then drops the mines on you weather its in the aforementioned abilities or not, those mines are dropped at point blank and actively move towards you without any kind of reaction time. Do you fight their immobility tactics or their trics? You sure as heck aren't fighting them at this point, I can tell you that much.
TRH's Master Yoda's proposed Nerf Feedback (Cryptic Version is above)
Tricobalt mines should never of been included in this game if you ask me and many others. Did we need these mines in the first place? The answer is no. People still were able to kill stuff effectively, and in a well coordinated manner, these mines however destroy that whole logistical understanding of the game and create a player base that only know how to hit 1 button, and that's the deployment of mines. With the bootcamp project having 600 sign ups, it is difficult to teach these skills to a group of players that will arguably protest to the idea that everything should have a tricobalt mine on it. Borticus, you once said yourself something about cookie cutter builds, well that's what the tricobalt mine is.
Anyway, back to the provided changes, the scaling is backwards and I'll provide rationale for it:
DP 1: 50% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 2: 60% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 3: 75% Damage Reduction per mine
It was not so much the single mine that threatened PvP game play balance Borticus, it was the vast number of them being used.
These proposed changes will make it difficult for the player to heavily rely on this one weapon to deploy their attack on someone. However, with all the spam in this game, it will be an utmost effective weapon to use against it. I furthermore do also suggest a minor buff to all other mines so they are in competitive statistical values to the tricobalt mine. Or even better, just take the tric mine out of the game.
Fun fact: In the good old days, tric mines were not affected by dispersal patterns.
Problems occured once the current designers thought they knew better than the old ones who originally came up with the system.
And it's only in conjunction with dispersal patterns that tric mines have become a problem. Back when we the game was full of full aux healers with mines in the back, once in a blue moon a tric mine would hit and severely cripple a ship. It was a rare occurrence and nothing that posed a problem for balance.
Psssst don't scare away the current team that is double the size of the old pvp team....
Fun fact: In the good old days, tric mines were not affected by dispersal patterns.
Another fun fact: Nobody was using mines in these days because they didn't to do any noticable damage. Everyone shrugged them off as if they were nothing.
Well, IMO, first solution looks just fine. Altho some ppl wll say that some counters dont work on them, actually they do. I`ve been playin a bit with trics on my sci, did some matches to to see what will happen, and how many kills i will get with "one shot". Well result of kills is rly low - why? Mines are easy to counter, in lot of cases when i tryed to kill some1 with them i failed. Tricobalts where destroyed by; CSV, torp spreads, TBR`s, etc etc. OR, my target was very well prepared to mines and had EPtS + TT on (probably even more resistance than that), OR they just ran off like U - KNOW - WHO. Not to mention enemy`s pets, photonic fleet, and enemy`s players mines as well.
Exactly. The only real issues I see with mines in general are their multicrits and the mannheim-device exploit (really, it should be considered an exploit, when time freezes mines should be frozen, too).
I hope the devs don't overnerf them. There is only a thin line between having mines as a viable weapon option and making them completely useless again. As it is most mines never hit a target in PvP thanks to the overall pet and AoE spam. If all these proposed changes hit I fear we will be back to pre-season 6 when mines were just laughable.
I'm afraid some of the proposed fixes would swing too far in the wrong direction. Sticking the automated defense battery on NPCs will revert mines to their previous state- that is, a weapon no one ever uses.
why would you give high end npc's mine and potentially target able projectile immunity? are npcs capable of complaining now?
as for the dispersal pattern damage reduction, do they currently buff damage or each mine over base? maybe start with the ability not buffing damage at all, and just launching additional base damage mines
also, tricobalt torps are basically harmless, and arguably easier to shoot down because they are so visible. tric mines with a hold are much more likely to hit. the torps should proboly get a damage buff, they are harmless when they hit shields, compared to a tric mine hit.
I would like to add to PaxOttomana's lengthy detail, on two fronts:
The damage variance nerf is a definite plus. Ideally, the one-crit-all-crit would be fixed too, but since you've already said it's on the backburner I'll let it slide. Generally toning down the randomness or freak nature of the mines is a very positive direction to head towards.
The proposed nerfs, while welcome, are not even remotely close to truly balancing tric mines, and more importantly they miss the crucial factor that's turned them into such a threat.
When a DPB3 (or even some lower ranks) is laid out, what happens is that the extremely high per-mine damage will first knock out a facing, and the rest of the mines will hit bare hull. The issue is with how dispersal patterns affect tric mines, and any nerf will not have a substantial effect in game unless you as developers start there.
In truth, I wish trics weren't in the game. Silly RNG-type one-shot weapons belong in a mid-90s Final Fantasy or some kind of single-player game, they're terrible for PvP. Luck can be a fun element in a multiplayer setting, but there's a limit; no one enjoys being one-shotted because the RNG gods didn't smile upon thee that day. And in any case, trics are so brutally strong right now that you really don't even need a good crit roll. Just mash your face over DPB3, hit an immobilize and profit.
If you're not willing to remove tricobalt mines from STO, I'd propose one of two major solutions:
Remove the interaction between dispersal patterns and tric mines;
Nerf the damage per mine between patterns so that extra mines deal 50%, 25% and 10% for DPB1, DPB2, and DPB3 respectively. There's some leeway for numbers here I guess but the idea is that extra tric mines are only minor supplementary damage to the main tric mine laid out.
Myself and my fleetmates are more than willing to demonstrate the issues with trics to any interested devs, and we're in almost complete concurrence about the gravity of the situation.
I would also like to add that the rest of the mines will not be affected by tric nerfs, and that many mine types are very viable as weapons as it stands (chron, tachyon, trannies, maybe quants).
Just as an FYI while it won't counter high end crits, aux2damp does have stun immunity and a high kinetic resist. It also has a fairly decent cooldown and nice movement bonus. Players may want to keep this in mind w/the photonic shockwave torp changes.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It's nice to see some careful consideration in making these changes, as well as acknowledgement of the issue. I'm not particularly fond of the last two proposals, especially the NPC's receiving a point defense bonus.
I'm curious though, what are the chances that the splash damage from Tricobalt mines could be adjusted to be a danger to the user, as with Tricobalt Torpedoes? Is there a way to prevent the splash damage of the first one from destroying the others? I could be wrong, but it seems like Tricobalt Spread doesn't kill itself but can still hurt the user if they are too close. I haven't used them in a while so I could be mistaken. It would certainly raise the stakes. People would have to plan tactically, rather than just drop and hope for the best.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
I Dont Know about the Griefers that spawn camp in Kerrat with Trico-Mines/
But Me for One Love the Variability it gives me and My Fleet and Allied Fleeties in other Wise Boring Space STF's after Months And Months of doing this say in CSE MRRML over and Over and Over gets BORING.
yes if you Re-SPec your toon into making the functionality of the tricos boosted.
and Yes if you layout your Ship Consoles bridge officers and Space Doff to help with your timing and probabilities that could help you you CAN have a ball.
Yes i Have A trico-Bomber and i use that on Space STF's i have tried PVP at Kerrat but the delays and timing associated with that build doesn't work well against a seasoned and skilled PVP'er..( the ones that know how to counter an opponents attacks efficiently)
Myself and Fellow Trico-Bombers Have Fun In a Game that we Enjoy.
just have a look at some of the Video's we have done.
you will change / Nerf our Fun but true Players will always find a way to research into how a weapon, Console, BOFF, DOFF or Toon Skill tree can help or Boost what and how they want to play a GAME.
i am in this to Have fun with my friends and fleeties.
If someone is Griefing or trolling gamers "PLEASE GIVE US THE OPTION TO VOTE BOOT"
Finally if you are going to Change / Alter /Nerf the game at least give us a free FREE .
Respec to allow us to use the game that WE PAY FOR.
Well, IMO, first solution looks just fine. Altho some ppl wll say that some counters dont work on them, actually they do. I`ve been playin a bit with trics on my sci, did some matches to to see what will happen, and how many kills i will get with "one shot". Well result of kills is rly low - why? Mines are easy to counter, in lot of cases when i tryed to kill some1 with them i failed. Tricobalts where destroyed by; CSV, torp spreads, TBR`s, etc etc. OR, my target was very well prepared to mines and had EPtS + TT on (probably even more resistance than that), OR they just ran off like U - KNOW - WHO. Not to mention enemy`s pets, photonic fleet, and enemy`s players mines as well.
I know my reply will be hardly attacked but IDK,
One crits all crits issue, dunno, DHC`s are also critting like crazy, just take a not how many times escort will "cloak" while firing on you :rolleyes:
Cheers
I always killed my target with them all it took was a little timing and a good old scramble/ams and a tractorbeam :P then a subnuke if they tried any runaways was a 99% chance to kill the other guy lol. Just dropping a mine 1vs1 never really worked on its own real well but if spammed with 2 mines you could overcome the targets defense cool-downs! In large fights they worked real good especially if you were kdf vs feds!
I am glad to see they are finely going to look at these I will no longer be able to easily do a one man infected which was laughable that anyone could do this in the first place!
Its only a 10% reduction so its not like they are going to make them useless even if they take them down by 50% they will still do 50k damage a hit! but looks like the defenses will work better but i bet i can still one pop people with a 4 mine drop with ams/scramble tb subnuke :P not that ill do it cause it is cheese!
It's nice to see some careful consideration in making these changes, as well as acknowledgement of the issue. I'm not particularly fond of the last two proposals, especially the NPC's receiving a point defense bonus.
I'm curious though, what are the chances that the splash damage from Tricobalt mines could be adjusted to be a danger to the user, as with Tricobalt Torpedoes? Is there a way to prevent the splash damage of the first one from destroying the others? I could be wrong, but it seems like Tricobalt Spread doesn't kill itself but can still hurt the user if they are too close. I haven't used them in a while so I could be mistaken. It would certainly raise the stakes. People would have to plan tactically, rather than just drop and hope for the best.
increase the shockwave sphere radius for these mines so that when the first hits, the shockwave destroys OR disables the others for a short time.
put a sphere radius around each mine so that they cannot be within a certain distance of one another. ie: 4 mines are deployed, each mine cannot get within 3km of another one, or 2km. just some distance so even if the first mine hits a player, that player still has a chance to make a decision to defend themselves.
allowing these mines to damage the ship that deployed them would also be great. ( i know that ill get attacked for that one):D
as it stands, I can defend decently against one mine that will lower my shields and deal massive hull damage, it is the other mines that I do not have time to react to before they hit. they all hit at once, or within 1 second of each other. as far as I have seen.
Chain crits fix, would fix trics and cannons thus making the game balanced. While making it impossible to kill anyone in the game, who is a seasoned pvper. sad but true.
And if the devs need help (sorry TRH) I am better equipped to show the imbalance of trics. My videos are evident of that. (no offense)
overall conclusion, sorry devs, your still going to get op messages about trics. It was a smart move though to reduce the radius area of dmg. That would stop most chain kills. and would reduce the kind of kill I did in my Vesta vs. Wells vid.
And 2, with any significant target getting a point-defense system of some kind, all those expensive Omega and Hyper Plasma HYTs, along with even normal tric torps, become useless against the only enemies otherwise worth using them on.
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
Although his suggestion did not scale as high as the proposed terms here, but nonetheless the reductions increased as the dispersal patterns did.
75% off per mine DP 3
60% off per mine DP 2
50% off per mine DP 1
This makes more sense, because it works out to about 8k damage per mine at DP 3 (still OP as heck if you ask me, but manageable). TRH will probably not even use them even with this change. But at least this way, you won't have 4 mines crash on you from point blank deployment doing 17,500 per mine as per the proposed changes.
1. I think that the time ship ability should freeze all mines (friendly and enemy) as well as the enemy ship/s and whatever else it freezes (that may take some doing though)
2. In my opinion debuffing mines base damage is a bad idea (and the variation in damage reduction is a good one), the dispersal pattern nerf is a much better choice as a temporary fix. That would probably be a simple copy and past of code from another mine varient and a few tweaks.
3. NPC issues mainly killing the CSE cubes before the generators with trikes (as far as I know) making mines (and esp targetable torps) useless against NPCs is insane, half the NPC issues (if not all of them, I don't know how OP trics are in STFs other than that I have never used them effectively) would be fixed by making the generator heals in STFs give full 100% resist (like the Vesta shield) and not heal to the NPCs they are targeting.
4. This may sound insane and would probably be highly debatible and not to mention quite a bit of work for the devs: the op made me think of an option to disable all damage variation from your ship on tribble (so any damage you do to anything else will not have any variation in amounts of damage per hit) to make testing a lot easier.
- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
After more testing and feedback, we may decide that the overall damage dealt by Tricobalts needs to be reduced even further at some point in the future. If it comes to that, we will also re-evaluate the cooldowns associated with these weapons to ensure that their overall combat viability remains strong.
I'm totally for changing tricobolts, but the dispersal pattern change you mentioned would be terrible. You destroy both faucets of spike damage and sustained. Nobody would ever use them., especially if they are useless against large NPC targets but still maintain a huge 1 minute cooldown,
You need to reduce their cooldown to 30 seconds, and reduce their damage accordingly; so their spike isn't so concentrated as in a 1 minute cooldown.
Comments
And Tricos?
Was anyone seriously using Tricos before the changes to DPB?
So why not just roll that back and not let Trics use the dispersal patterns? Seems to be a simpler idea, and less likely to add in more bugs.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Edit:
And yeah, I never understood why some premades would autofire chronos against PuGs, lol.
If you can couple that with moving dispersal patterns down a tier each so DPB 3 no longer requires the only CMD level Tac slot on a ship, maybe.
Can you just reduce the damage of Tricos in PvP?
Player ships only have 40-50k hull before resistances, that's why this is such a massive issue. It's not nearly as much of an issue against 1.5 to 2 million points of hull.
Dreadnought NPCs are the only ones worth using DPB + Trico mines on in the first place, and they almost universally all have BFAW standard.
If they then had a soft-counter perma PDS spam on top of that I'm pretty sure Tricos and Dispersal Patterns would disappear back into "bad power limbo" from where they recently emerged.
Maybe this is the time to push for NPCs that function more like player ships with player ship values and the ability to actually move and heal themselves and not float helplessly in space soaking damage through sheer, inordinate, amounts of hull and dealing their own 6 figure burst damage onto players.
Or alternatively working on separating PvE and PvP power values to allow for finer tuning for balance.
This is a misnomer.
Once you are on the receiving end of 6 figure damage, it completely blows through your shielding like it doesn't exist.
This is why people constantly, and frequently, have been complaining about borg one shot torpedos killing them through full shields and hull.
Player ships are not designed to withstand 6 figure damage in the 200-300K+ range.
Clarification to Borticus
Unfortunately, the mines when they're in vast numbers in use they're extremely difficult to effectively combat with generic builds. In which case, people need to reassess their builds before going into the queues.
In other words, I need to put on my tricobalt fighting style before going into the queues. If I run into a tricobalt bomber team, I may have success destroying their mines but not them. This is the pressing issue, people are fighting tric mines, not players in the queues.
Their lengthy cool downs are in junction with brace for impact and other anti mine abilities. Unfortunately, they are at par or fall short. Example: An entire team deploys mines after the team has used their brace for impact. Take reference from Bran, a target caller in TRH Teamspeak will call out for general "Brace for Impact" and the team will deploy due to an imminent tricobalt bombing. Thereafter, a few others lay mines and these abilities are either on cool down or aren't enough to combat the vast number of trics.
One mine brings down a shield facing, and stuns the target thus not allowing them to be able to hit any follow up defenses. The second mine hits, it either destroys you or it puts you in bad ship. However this occurs across the entire team, which means the dispensed heals already are exhausted just from the first two mines per target. There after come the third, fourth, and sometimes 5th mines onto each and every target in a match vs tricobalt premades. This is of course if none of the mines do any AOE, because the explosions from the 2nd mines are enough to finish off targets from AOE. The sacrifices made in their boff/doff/consoles is well off for the investment into a god hammer, it isn't a sacrifice at that point it's a game gene plugged into your NES.
Your generalized assessment about the mines is well mistaken, and very unfounded when considering PvP game play.
Feedback on Proposed Changes:
The proposed changes are a mediocre improvement to say the least. The proposed 10% damage reduction on each mine that hits for an average of 35,000 without critical damage is reduced to 31,500. This is hardly an improvement.
The damage variance nerf is a definite nerf, but the base damage of the mines still were enough even if they did not crit. Example, 35k hit destroyed a shield facing, another 35k brought you below 50% another mine destroys you, provided no AOE from the 1st and 2nd explosions didn't destroy you. Again the amounts of heals used such as hazards cool down is exceeded by tric mine deployment.
The deployment of these mines have evolved Borticus. They're now being hidden in theta radiation, warp plasma, and protected my aceton assimilators from energy weapon AOE. Also, the sheer tactics used, are whats confusing you. These mines aren't just laid out like some traps in some Acme cartoon, the player literally makes you immobile and then drops the mines on you weather its in the aforementioned abilities or not, those mines are dropped at point blank and actively move towards you without any kind of reaction time. Do you fight their immobility tactics or their trics? You sure as heck aren't fighting them at this point, I can tell you that much.
TRH's Master Yoda's proposed Nerf Feedback (Cryptic Version is above)
Tricobalt mines should never of been included in this game if you ask me and many others. Did we need these mines in the first place? The answer is no. People still were able to kill stuff effectively, and in a well coordinated manner, these mines however destroy that whole logistical understanding of the game and create a player base that only know how to hit 1 button, and that's the deployment of mines. With the bootcamp project having 600 sign ups, it is difficult to teach these skills to a group of players that will arguably protest to the idea that everything should have a tricobalt mine on it. Borticus, you once said yourself something about cookie cutter builds, well that's what the tricobalt mine is.
Anyway, back to the provided changes, the scaling is backwards and I'll provide rationale for it:
DP 1: 50% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 2: 60% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 3: 75% Damage Reduction per mine
It was not so much the single mine that threatened PvP game play balance Borticus, it was the vast number of them being used.
These proposed changes will make it difficult for the player to heavily rely on this one weapon to deploy their attack on someone. However, with all the spam in this game, it will be an utmost effective weapon to use against it. I furthermore do also suggest a minor buff to all other mines so they are in competitive statistical values to the tricobalt mine. Or even better, just take the tric mine out of the game.
Thanks for your time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Psssst don't scare away the current team that is double the size of the old pvp team....
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Another fun fact: Nobody was using mines in these days because they didn't to do any noticable damage. Everyone shrugged them off as if they were nothing.
Exactly. The only real issues I see with mines in general are their multicrits and the mannheim-device exploit (really, it should be considered an exploit, when time freezes mines should be frozen, too).
I hope the devs don't overnerf them. There is only a thin line between having mines as a viable weapon option and making them completely useless again. As it is most mines never hit a target in PvP thanks to the overall pet and AoE spam. If all these proposed changes hit I fear we will be back to pre-season 6 when mines were just laughable.
as for the dispersal pattern damage reduction, do they currently buff damage or each mine over base? maybe start with the ability not buffing damage at all, and just launching additional base damage mines
also, tricobalt torps are basically harmless, and arguably easier to shoot down because they are so visible. tric mines with a hold are much more likely to hit. the torps should proboly get a damage buff, they are harmless when they hit shields, compared to a tric mine hit.
When a DPB3 (or even some lower ranks) is laid out, what happens is that the extremely high per-mine damage will first knock out a facing, and the rest of the mines will hit bare hull. The issue is with how dispersal patterns affect tric mines, and any nerf will not have a substantial effect in game unless you as developers start there.
In truth, I wish trics weren't in the game. Silly RNG-type one-shot weapons belong in a mid-90s Final Fantasy or some kind of single-player game, they're terrible for PvP. Luck can be a fun element in a multiplayer setting, but there's a limit; no one enjoys being one-shotted because the RNG gods didn't smile upon thee that day. And in any case, trics are so brutally strong right now that you really don't even need a good crit roll. Just mash your face over DPB3, hit an immobilize and profit.
If you're not willing to remove tricobalt mines from STO, I'd propose one of two major solutions:
Myself and my fleetmates are more than willing to demonstrate the issues with trics to any interested devs, and we're in almost complete concurrence about the gravity of the situation.
I would also like to add that the rest of the mines will not be affected by tric nerfs, and that many mine types are very viable as weapons as it stands (chron, tachyon, trannies, maybe quants).
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I'm curious though, what are the chances that the splash damage from Tricobalt mines could be adjusted to be a danger to the user, as with Tricobalt Torpedoes? Is there a way to prevent the splash damage of the first one from destroying the others? I could be wrong, but it seems like Tricobalt Spread doesn't kill itself but can still hurt the user if they are too close. I haven't used them in a while so I could be mistaken. It would certainly raise the stakes. People would have to plan tactically, rather than just drop and hope for the best.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
But Me for One Love the Variability it gives me and My Fleet and Allied Fleeties in other Wise Boring Space STF's after Months And Months of doing this say in CSE MRRML over and Over and Over gets BORING.
yes if you Re-SPec your toon into making the functionality of the tricos boosted.
and Yes if you layout your Ship Consoles bridge officers and Space Doff to help with your timing and probabilities that could help you you CAN have a ball.
Yes i Have A trico-Bomber and i use that on Space STF's i have tried PVP at Kerrat but the delays and timing associated with that build doesn't work well against a seasoned and skilled PVP'er..( the ones that know how to counter an opponents attacks efficiently)
Myself and Fellow Trico-Bombers Have Fun In a Game that we Enjoy.
just have a look at some of the Video's we have done.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw9mOvMnJxsrRi9YqjqF_bw?feature=mhee
you will change / Nerf our Fun but true Players will always find a way to research into how a weapon, Console, BOFF, DOFF or Toon Skill tree can help or Boost what and how they want to play a GAME.
i am in this to Have fun with my friends and fleeties.
If someone is Griefing or trolling gamers "PLEASE GIVE US THE OPTION TO VOTE BOOT"
Finally if you are going to Change / Alter /Nerf the game at least give us a free FREE .
Respec to allow us to use the game that WE PAY FOR.
and yes i am a lifetime subscriber.
I always killed my target with them all it took was a little timing and a good old scramble/ams and a tractorbeam :P then a subnuke if they tried any runaways was a 99% chance to kill the other guy lol. Just dropping a mine 1vs1 never really worked on its own real well but if spammed with 2 mines you could overcome the targets defense cool-downs! In large fights they worked real good especially if you were kdf vs feds!
I am glad to see they are finely going to look at these I will no longer be able to easily do a one man infected which was laughable that anyone could do this in the first place!
increase the shockwave sphere radius for these mines so that when the first hits, the shockwave destroys OR disables the others for a short time.
put a sphere radius around each mine so that they cannot be within a certain distance of one another. ie: 4 mines are deployed, each mine cannot get within 3km of another one, or 2km. just some distance so even if the first mine hits a player, that player still has a chance to make a decision to defend themselves.
allowing these mines to damage the ship that deployed them would also be great. ( i know that ill get attacked for that one):D
as it stands, I can defend decently against one mine that will lower my shields and deal massive hull damage, it is the other mines that I do not have time to react to before they hit. they all hit at once, or within 1 second of each other. as far as I have seen.
And if the devs need help (sorry TRH) I am better equipped to show the imbalance of trics. My videos are evident of that. (no offense)
overall conclusion, sorry devs, your still going to get op messages about trics. It was a smart move though to reduce the radius area of dmg. That would stop most chain kills. and would reduce the kind of kill I did in my Vesta vs. Wells vid.
This isn't a thread for you to take a cheap shot at TRH.
R.I.P
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
Cheers, we appreciate the sentiment.
I doubt the Devs will entertain his suggestion anyway, since this is a collective forum of opinions.
Thanks again.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And 2, with any significant target getting a point-defense system of some kind, all those expensive Omega and Hyper Plasma HYTs, along with even normal tric torps, become useless against the only enemies otherwise worth using them on.
Terrific.
I'd go for this.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
I hate the Dev Tracker!
Numbers are backwards, and make no sense in that version. We suggested in this thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6796831&postcount=54
Although his suggestion did not scale as high as the proposed terms here, but nonetheless the reductions increased as the dispersal patterns did.
75% off per mine DP 3
60% off per mine DP 2
50% off per mine DP 1
This makes more sense, because it works out to about 8k damage per mine at DP 3 (still OP as heck if you ask me, but manageable). TRH will probably not even use them even with this change. But at least this way, you won't have 4 mines crash on you from point blank deployment doing 17,500 per mine as per the proposed changes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Worst case scenario- Tric Mines become completely useless again.
Best case scenario- The changes really only impact players who don't spec and console out for them.
2. In my opinion debuffing mines base damage is a bad idea (and the variation in damage reduction is a good one), the dispersal pattern nerf is a much better choice as a temporary fix. That would probably be a simple copy and past of code from another mine varient and a few tweaks.
3. NPC issues mainly killing the CSE cubes before the generators with trikes (as far as I know) making mines (and esp targetable torps) useless against NPCs is insane, half the NPC issues (if not all of them, I don't know how OP trics are in STFs other than that I have never used them effectively) would be fixed by making the generator heals in STFs give full 100% resist (like the Vesta shield) and not heal to the NPCs they are targeting.
4. This may sound insane and would probably be highly debatible and not to mention quite a bit of work for the devs: the op made me think of an option to disable all damage variation from your ship on tribble (so any damage you do to anything else will not have any variation in amounts of damage per hit) to make testing a lot easier.
I'm totally for changing tricobolts, but the dispersal pattern change you mentioned would be terrible. You destroy both faucets of spike damage and sustained. Nobody would ever use them., especially if they are useless against large NPC targets but still maintain a huge 1 minute cooldown,
You need to reduce their cooldown to 30 seconds, and reduce their damage accordingly; so their spike isn't so concentrated as in a 1 minute cooldown.