Well, when someone starts a thread called "Decouple TT and Redistribution," and a dev responds: "Tactical Team is definitely a high priority review," then, in my mind, that can only really mean one thing: we're gonna nerf the TRIBBLE out of it, and very soon!
Please, prove me wrong!
Go away... man its crazy how fast one dev post turns a pvp thread into a pve thread.
First off if you feel like Tac team is needed for pve you must have one terrible pve build.... its a good skill yes... but trust me we got through pve content prior to the tac team change. lol
Honesty saying that the PvE in this game requires anything is hiliarious.
Honstly I just got through a round of pugging stfs on 8 or 9 of my toons... ya I know I needed some dilithium... damn though the average skill level in a puged stf is so insanely low... I was playing with people that didin't distriubue there shields at all... had rainbow builds... and I don't mean just a few I was in one Pug Infected where really all 4 of them had rainbow builds.
Tac Team needs a good wack with the nerf bat... for PVE never mind PvP.
TT and the distribution should not be decoupled, but slightly rebalanced along with BFI. without TT basically any decent alpha strike would be death. manual redistribution does not do enough on its own, and at least fed cruisers don't have the maneuverability to protect faceings. pvp would require a dedicated healer to back up the targeted at all times, you couldn't do it by yourself anymore, at that point puging in anything but an escort would be truly useless. puging would end up as different as premade teaming as pve is different from pvp.
Here's another game mechanic I just thought about. Healers will probably be the only ones that end up using these in a team environment.
Edit: we'll, depending on how many it takes. If its one, then escorts may take it to make the worthless ens slot worth something. If three, I cat see them choosing these
Thats why I am really liking the idea... right now there is far to much tac team all over the place... this would make healers so much more important... and engi healers that can afford to not be using the team distribute on themselevs even more important.
We have been talking accross a bunch of threads the last few days about ways to make engi cruisers more viable... I think this change would add to that for sure... I would think healing sci and healing cruisers would be the only answer to getting this effect thrown on the focus targets... I think it would be a great dynamic to throw into the team game.
TT and the distribution should not be decoupled, but slightly rebalanced along with BFI. without TT basically any decent alpha strike would be death. manual redistribution does not do enough on its own, and at least fed cruisers don't have the maneuverability to protect faceings. pvp would require a dedicated healer to back up the targeted at all times, you couldn't do it by yourself anymore, at that point puging in anything but an escort would be truly useless. puging would end up as different as premade teaming as pve is different from pvp.
Really cause the escorts won't be chaining Tac Teams either... are you saying the majority of players have the chops to pilot an escort with out dual distributing tac teams... I doubt many of them do... Frankly if you take it away from escorts. (or allow them to have it at the cost of 3 doffs)....
We go back to the way the game was 1.5 years ago... when the best escort pilots flew escorts... and the terrible escorts flew there tac cruisers instead. lol
man its crazy how fast one dev post turns a pvp thread into a pve thread.
Hey man... there are certain things, including but not limited to tec team, that affect all of us so why can't we discuss this as PLAYERS rather than as PvE'ers and PvP'ers (or US and THEM for a better analogy)
I think shield distribution should be linked to Electro Plasma Systems. EPS is the transfer rate between subsystems (different parts of the ship), and it should also set the rate at which shield power is transferred (between different sides of the ship).
EPS is in the middle of the skill tree, not too expensive.
Hey man... there are certain things, including but not limited to tec team, that affect all of us so why can't we discuss this as PLAYERS rather than as PvE'ers and PvP'ers (or US and THEM for a better analogy)
We can and every pvper left at this point talks about pve balance when they talk about changes... I was simply commenting on how one dev post starts turning up posts from people that obviously are just following the dev tracker and would otherwise never step into thread about balance.
Its so easy to want them to add more and more toys... all of which make pve easier and easier... but one dev mentions that something might need adjusting and the knives come out pretty quick from that crowd... I mean look at all the new toys in the game since the tac team change. I don't know even with the terrible stf pugs I still manage to accomplish the mission bonuses 95% of the time... I mean damn I remember me and a fleet mate ending up being the only 2 to start an infected when 3 of our fleet mates got DQed 15 seconds in... we completed that sucker with 6 min on the board with 2 of us... and these people argue that tac team would kill pve... it more then annoys me it sort of Pi**es me off.
As it is I think there is too much rubbish in the game, skills that are useless, skills that are musts, skills that are overpowered, doffs that should never exist... the list goes on.
What the game needs is a complete overhaul of the space combat system such that player balance is set before NPCs are even thought of. If we bring damage buffs down and set a limit to the maximum damage ANY player can do and then find out the average casual players damage is so that you can set heals accordingly and then bring sci back in in a way that allows them to mess with that but not TRIBBLE it up completely (such are the problems with running 3 classes). once this is sorted such that the best tac/scort and eng/cruiser are balanced and negate one another, you can think about NPCs as PvP will be perfectly balanced.
The NPCs should come in about half way between the max damage and the average damage, this way there is room for variety in boff skills as well as those optimised builds to do well in PvE... in effect you can take the worst of the worst and survive PvE, you can take the average and do.. well average in PvE then you can take your PvP build and do well in PvE but not to the point that anything (except the worst of the worst builds) look or feel utterly rubbish.
When this is done you just add new ships based on the player balance, if it does not fit this balance then it is broken, if it under-performs then it needs an improvement, if you want to run P2W then you create above average ships that don't break the balance i.e the Excelsior (better than free but doesn't break the balance) and you wouldn't need P2L as nothing would be THAT powerful.
We can and every pvper left at this point talks about pve balance when they talk about changes... I was simply commenting on how one dev post starts turning up posts from people that obviously are just following the dev tracker and would otherwise never step into thread about balance.
Or otherwise don't pore over every forum due to time constraints. That Bort posted means there's a thread that's at least worth reading. Furthermore, how people are attracted to a thread does not devalue their two cents.
Its so easy to want them to add more and more toys... all of which make pve easier and easier
Quite the Opposite. In STFs, the newer fleet actions, and elite mode everywhere else, 2xTT is required. Which is why I responded: Having doffs to tie ReDistro to whichever team power you like allows you actually use the other team powers in PvE. That's not "MOAR TOYS! LULZ IMMA WORTHLESS PvEer (as perceived by an Eltist PvPer)", that's "this could benefit both sides of the game, I could buy into that". It would also free up slots in general. Too many tac slots are wasted on TT on ships that don't have tac slots to spare.
I didn't really know how to play the game effectively until after TT got the Shield ReDistro. I wonder how anybody made it before then.
I didn't really know how to play the game effectively until after TT got the Shield ReDistro. I wonder how anybody made it before then.
It wasn't really that hard... but yes your point is valid. Also sorry to take any frustration out on you. In general in past threads a dev makes a post where we are having a real conversation, and beforeyou know it the thread gets derailed in general by people that don't even take the time to read anything posted before the dev post. In the past is has been used as an excuse by some of our devs to simply NOT post there thoughts at all. Bort does try to add his 2 cents here and there and we appreciate it of course... I wouldn't assume he is planning to completely kill the tac team dynamic that exists. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone at this point that the skill has a rework coming... I mean its plainly OP, pve or pvp.
without TT basically any decent alpha strike would be death. manual redistribution does not do enough on its own, and at least fed cruisers don't have the maneuverability to protect faceings. pvp would require a dedicated healer to back up the targeted at all times, you couldn't do it by yourself anymore, at that point puging in anything but an escort would be truly useless. puging would end up as different as premade teaming as pve is different from pvp.
What part of TT do you think is enabling people to live through the alpha strike? Because I'm saying keep the shield redistribution in the game.
Unless you're saying that people would require a dedicated healer because they wouldn't figure out to use it if it wasn't tied to an easily accessible ensign skill? I have low faith in pugs, but not that low.
Or otherwise don't pore over every forum due to time constraints. That Bort posted means there's a thread that's at least worth reading. Furthermore, how people are attracted to a thread does not devalue their two cents.
True, but if they find it that way and reply without having read even the OP it does. This wasn't a 20 page thread with a murky title.
Quite the Opposite. In STFs, the newer fleet actions, and elite mode everywhere else, 2xTT is required.
This is not at all my experience. But to each his own. If it took 3 purple doffs to get to the effect of the current TT I would be trying to skimp with 1 or 2.
Which is why I responded: Having doffs to tie ReDistro to whichever team power you like allows you actually use the other team powers in PvE. That's not "MOAR TOYS! LULZ IMMA WORTHLESS PvEer (as perceived by an Eltist PvPer)", that's "this could benefit both sides of the game, I could buy into that". It would also free up slots in general. Too many tac slots are wasted on TT on ships that don't have tac slots to spare.
True, and tacs would rejoice as well because their FOMM and APB would not be cleared.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Really cause the escorts won't be chaining Tac Teams either... are you saying the majority of players have the chops to pilot an escort with out dual distributing tac teams... I doubt many of them do... Frankly if you take it away from escorts. (or allow them to have it at the cost of 3 doffs)....
We go back to the way the game was 1.5 years ago... when the best escort pilots flew escorts... and the terrible escorts flew there tac cruisers instead. lol
i don't want to argue if escort damage on average is higher now then ever, but i certainly think spike damage is higher, purple mkXII weapons and consoles have seen to that, along with 5 tac console escorts. a game without TT's distribution would basically be like playing a station powerless match, an escort would win that every time. every one would take escorts, because that the only thing capable of killing, and every fight between escorts would end in a single pass, it really would look like DS9. TT is the only thing that can save you from fully buffed alphas, nothing else can counter it.
What part of TT do you think is enabling people to live through the alpha strike? Because I'm saying keep the shield redistribution in the game.
oh keep the distribute around in something else? ok thats fine. i think the tac debuff clear should just be rediced to 1-4 seconds, but i guess that works too.
Unless you're saying that people would require a dedicated healer because they wouldn't figure out to use it if it wasn't tied to an easily accessible ensign skill? I have low faith in pugs, but not that low.
Why not do this:
1) Keep the Tactical Team shield distribution the way it is.
2) Increase the damage buff.
3) Give Science Team and Engineering Team shield distribution as well.
4) Keep duration 10 seconds for Tactical Team, and increase the duration of Science Team and Engineering Team to 10 seconds.
5) Change the shield and hull heals to heals over time, rather than instant.
Why not do this:
1) Keep the Tactical Team shield distribution the way it is.
2) Increase the damage buff.
3) Give Science Team and Engineering Team shield distribution as well.
4) Keep duration 10 seconds for Tactical Team, and increase the duration of Science Team and Engineering Team to 10 seconds.
This way, everyone is happy...no?
No, Sci team lasting 10 seconds and distributing shields would completely kill off a lot of sci skills. Engi team probably wouldn't be as bad, but still.
One thing to keep in mind, all cannon builds that have a 3rd Tac Ensign slot already struggle to fill those Tac Ensign slots.
Increasing the cost on Tac Team means you:
1) Lose out on higher tier powers that are generally critical to damage output.
2) Now have to fill at least 2 Tac Ensign slots with something. This is OK if you like Torpedos and DBBs, and completely build destroying if you don't.
Now if Tac Team did the following:
Gave a very large damage boost to X & Y skills (scaling with tier)
Cleared debuffs for 5s (the same as ST & ET)
and then:
Manual Shield Distribution was massively improved
Then I think this would be a better way to go for changing TT personally.
If we monkey with any of this, 3 things move at once. So let's remove the shield redistribution from Tac team and tie it to a doff. 3 different doffs, actually, one to add shield redistribution on each of the Team abilities.
I think this would become the defacto 3x DOFF choice on every ship (based on team skill chosen), the way SDOs are right now.
IMO, this limits builds in the same way everyone using TT does now, except it limits DOFF slots instead of Tac BOFF slots and for that reason I dislike it.
This takes a critical ability, shield distribution, and places it squarely into DOFF only territory (again, unless some massive improvements were made to manual distribution).
It also totally forces you to specialize at that point, either TT or ST or ET and this is not really better than the situation we're in now (due to the DOFFs not working across all team skills)
I'd much rather see a solution that allows the team skills to play friendlier with each other than we have now.
Go away... man its crazy how fast one dev post turns a pvp thread into a pve thread.
Go away yourself... Man, it's crazy how fast one guy turns this into a 'pvp vs. pve' thread.
First off if you feel like Tac team is needed for pve you must have one terrible pve build.... its a good skill yes... but trust me we got through pve content prior to the tac team change. lol
Has it ever occured to you that NPC damage output simply is, and always has been, tuned to the tools available for people to defend themselves?
Fact of the matter is, there are already signs missions are getting tougher (possibly in preparation of new and better gear?). Not a bad thing, per se; but no, you can't really tank an Elite Borg cube without the shield distribution that comes with TT. And no, not you either. Or are you just one of those guys that allows himself to simply die often and be carried by others? If not, you need means to stay alive. And no, just gratuitously yelling "Hey, I'm the big bad PvP-er, I can do anything!" won't cut it. You are subject to the same rules and game-mechanics as everyone else.
Honstly I just got through a round of pugging stfs on 8 or 9 of my toons... ya I know I needed some dilithium... damn though the average skill level in a puged stf is so insanely low... I was playing with people that didin't distriubue there shields at all... had rainbow builds... and I don't mean just a few I was in one Pug Infected where really all 4 of them had rainbow builds.
Do you really think this thread is the appropriate venue to voice your frustrations with the pug's rainbow builds? Perhaps it even is (after all, pretty much anything goes); but your issues with the pug have nothing to do with TT.
Tac Team needs a good wack with the nerf bat... for PVE never mind PvP.
Yeah, yeah, we get it: you look down on PvE-ers, you think they have it way too easy, and you love every opportunity to see them nerfed, just to underline how bad-TRIBBLE you are yourself, right? I played EVE. Trust me, all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
I don't know even with the terrible stf pugs I still manage to accomplish the mission bonuses 95% of the time... I mean damn I remember me and a fleet mate ending up being the only 2 to start an infected when 3 of our fleet mates got DQed 15 seconds in... we completed that sucker with 6 min on the board with 2 of us... and these people argue that tac team would kill pve... it more then annoys me it sort of Pi**es me off.
More pointless e-peening from you. What's next? You're gonna tell us you solo-ed an Elite Infected and still made the Optional?
N.B. Is this the thing that usually goes on in PvP threads, people just endlessly showing off the size of their d*ck?! Seriously, is this what it's normally like, people talking about the need for one skill, with others yelling "You don't need that; I can tank the entire room myself, and moar!!" Frankly, I'm not impressed. Actually, I think it's a bit pathetic. Then again, in a room full of male PvP-ers, what was I expecting, right?
More pointless e-peening from you. What's next? You're gonna tell us you solo-ed an Elite Infected and still made the Optional?
N.B. Is this the thing that usually goes on in PvP threads, people just endlessly showing off the size of their d*ck?! Seriously, is this what it's normally like, people talking about the need for one skill, with others yelling "You don't need that; I can tank the entire room myself, and moar!!" Frankly, I'm not impressed. Actually, I think it's a bit pathetic. Then again, in a room full of male PvP-ers, what was I expecting, right?
LOL.
The only point was Pve Is already stupid easy... and it was just as easy before tac team became the poor mans rsp it is today. The npcs have not changed much no matter what people want to believe.
If anything Cryptic has made pve even easier... sure there are the odd one shot hits in STFS... still that doesn't at all make it any harder. Unless you really have a team full of useless players.
Call it epeen swinging if it makes you feel better... but frankly any PvPer that has jumped in a team full of other pvp players to run some PvE understands... PvE is way way to easy.
Frankly dialing back a handful of skills to make pve a bit harder isn't such a bad idea. If in the process pvp ends up a little more balanced thats not a bad thing either.
The only point was Pve Is already stupid easy... and it was just as easy before tac team became the poor mans rsp it is today. The npcs have not changed much no matter what people want to believe.
If anything Cryptic has made pve even easier... sure there are the odd one shot hits in STFS... still that doesn't at all make it any harder. Unless you really have a team full of useless players.
Call it epeen swinging if it makes you feel better... but frankly any PvPer that has jumped in a team full of other pvp players to run some PvE understands... PvE is way way to easy.
Frankly dialing back a handful of skills to make pve a bit harder isn't such a bad idea. If in the process pvp ends up a little more balanced thats not a bad thing either.
The 'easiness' of PvE very much depends on the quality of the rest of your team. If everyone is doing their part, it's a breeze. If not, and you become pretty much the sole brunt of the angry cubes and spheres, well, then you'll need your TT pairs.
Naturally, you could take away TT and let people continually die, but where's the fun in that? In fact, more importantly, it undermines the sense of having some sort of control. Or at least the skills and tools to give you said control. If you take away people's means to tank effectively, and there's nothing they can do about it, skill-, doff-, or otherwise, then what's the point of even playing? Then it's literally become a 'No Win' scenario. And I think any game, not just STO, should give ppl the tools to overcome NPC adversity. That's the sport.
N.B. Is this the thing that usually goes on in PvP threads, people just endlessly showing off the size of their d*ck?! Seriously, is this what it's normally like, people talking about the need for one skill, with others yelling "You don't need that; I can tank the entire room myself, and moar!!" Frankly, I'm not impressed. Actually, I think it's a bit pathetic. Then again, in a room full of male PvP-ers, what was I expecting, right?
LOL.
Since we're doing the e-peen thing. I beat Elite STFs in DSSV aux healboats. :P
The dude is completely right, TacTeam has more value in PvP.
Besides which, decoupling the ability of redistribution to a separate power will still allow you to slot it, but it won't have the double whammy of making Tac debuffs useless by default.
So you'll still have your shield redistribution crutch, but the PvPers will get a nice Tac buff in return.
Don't sweat it anyway. Cryptic won't do anything that will severely inconvenience PvErs anyway.
PvP is lower in priority than PvE to them, sad to say.
Naturally, you could take away TT and let people continually die, but where's the fun in that?
If these people would use keybinds and add shield distribution to their spacebar, they could get away without using TacTeam all the time.
Switch to shield power from time to time as well.
The problem with a lot of these people is they never do these things because of ignorance, so naturally they think TacTeam is the only thing that works.
It's amazing how often I have to keep throwing TacTeam on dudes, because they don't know how to redistribute their shields.
The dude is completely right, TacTeam has more value in PvP.
A bit of a strawman, as I've seen no one dispute that.
Besides which, decoupling the ability of redistribution to a separate power will still allow you to slot it, but it won't have the double whammy of making Tac debuffs useless by default.
I can live with that, kinda (as long as there will be an equally good shield distribution skill that will go in the ensign slot as well). For PvE, the dude is completely right, lol: you don't need the tact buffs, per se (although this will hurt cruisers further). But you *do* need effective ways to tank.
If these people would use keybinds and add shield distribution to their spacebar, they could get away without using TacTeam all the time.
Switch to shield power from time to time as well.
The problem with a lot of these people is they never do these things because of ignorance, so naturally they think TacTeam is the only thing that works.
It's amazing how often I have to keep throwing TacTeam on dudes, because they don't know how to redistribute their shields.
Are you suggesting manual shield distribution is as effective as the one TT offers? Cuz it's not. Even at TT1 the shield distro is much more powerful than what you can accomplish manually.
And, erm, no, with 2x EPtS running, there's no need to switch to shield power from time to time: my shields have more power than they're ever going to need.
Also, speaking of decoupling, Engineering Team should really be taken off shared cooldown with Tactical Team: shields and hull repair are really two entirely different systems. And with 2x TT1 running, it just makes it awkward to squeeze in an ET skill as well (you can still use the ET skill, at an average of waiting 7.5 secs, but then you skip a beat of your TT1 cycle).
Are you suggesting manual shield distribution is as effective as the one TT offers? Cuz it's not. Even at TT1 the shield distro is much more powerful than what you can accomplish manually.
And, erm, no, with 2x EPtS running, there's no need to switch to shield power from time to time: my shields have more power than they're ever going to need.
Speaking of strawmen. I never said manual distribution was as effective as TacTeam, merely that you don't need constant TT coverage in PvE. And that those dumb pugs who get blown up in PvE could survive more readily if they relied on distribution as well.
I rarely use TT at all in PvE and I draw aggro from mobs too. Maybe they need to make builds that don't blow balls? They need to learn from PvPers like Mavairo and others who post in my siglink, then they won't blow up as often.
In PvP where people can output 100k damage in a short while is where TacTeam has the most benefit. Therefore any subsequent hypothetical nerf to the power has relevance to PvP not PvE, no matter how fail build using players think otherwise.
Anyway, your entire decision to whine in this thread was based on the idea that Bort was going to nerf TT, but he said nothing of the sort, he just said the power was going to get a look at in the future.
And like I mentioned earlier, PvErs get priority over PvPers, so if they thought the power would weaken PvErs (wrong or right), they won't do it.
Anyway, your entire decision to whine in this thread was based on the idea that Bort was going to nerf TT, but he said nothing of the sort, he just said the power was going to get a look at in the future.
Now you're just deliberately playing dumb. Or did you really think he was planning to review TT, so as to make it even more powerful? Be honest now, for a moment.
Ahm do u guys remember that there was a time tacteam did not redistribute shields?
And it was possible to play pve and pvp and it was fun.
Yesterday i played a couple of pug pvp. And there are still a lot of players that dont use tacteam and/or dont know that distributing shields is a must in space combat.
New players dont know that u can bind shild distribution to the spacebar.
The 'easiness' of PvE very much depends on the quality of the rest of your team. If everyone is doing their part, it's a breeze. If not, and you become pretty much the sole brunt of the angry cubes and spheres, well, then you'll need your TT pairs.
Naturally, you could take away TT and let people continually die, but where's the fun in that? In fact, more importantly, it undermines the sense of having some sort of control. Or at least the skills and tools to give you said control. If you take away people's means to tank effectively, and there's nothing they can do about it, skill-, doff-, or otherwise, then what's the point of even playing? Then it's literally become a 'No Win' scenario. And I think any game, not just STO, should give ppl the tools to overcome NPC adversity. That's the sport.
Please read the original post. I really am not getting the impression that you have yet. You are arguing against taking away TT, which I did not propose. I said let's look at the elements of TT that make it essential and break them up so they can be used in different ways.
A bit of a strawman, as I've seen no one dispute that.
I can live with that, kinda (as long as there will be an equally good shield distribution skill that will go in the ensign slot as well). For PvE, the dude is completely right, lol: you don't need the tact buffs, per se (although this will hurt cruisers further). But you *do* need effective ways to tank.
I hope this means you're catching on to what I actually suggested with this thread. But part of the problem with TT is that it so effective for so little cost. I think the fact that the shield redistribution only costs an ensign slot is something that should be changed.
Also, I couldn't disagree more with tac buffs in PvE. For stf optionals you need tac buffs first and foremost. If you are tanking you are not choosing the best strategy for completing optionals. Tac buffed tric mines are pretty much all you need.
Also, speaking of decoupling, Engineering Team should really be taken off shared cooldown with Tactical Team: shields and hull repair are really two entirely different systems. And with 2x TT1 running, it just makes it awkward to squeeze in an ET skill as well (you can still use the ET skill, at an average of waiting 7.5 secs, but then you skip a beat of your TT1 cycle).
Again, I couldn't disagree with you more. You are arguing against any opportunity loss. Some ability choices should be either/or. Strengthening one area should cost you the ability to strengthen another. This is a pretty fundamental difference of opinion on how games should work, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Tactical Team is definitely a high priority review that will take place after Season 7 is released. As a result of that power review, it's possible that changes may also be made to Engineering Team and Science Team, but that has yet to be determined with any level of finality.
I think the best change to TT I've seen so far was one I jacked from someone else. They seemed to have abandoned the idea so I'll carry it.
TT should only clear tac debuffs for 4 seconds.
This has a Huge impact on pvp, and it would dramatically affect healing and the way healing is performed in STO. Abilities like APB, the APD Debuff and Fire on my mark would not only become useful but Desirable again, which in the case of APB would tremendously help tactical beam boats like the Excelsior and Regent... helping those means you sell more of them. Selling more Cstore ships = more money for you. More money for you = good thing, yes? The reason beam boats benefit so much from this is due to there being only One decent beam skill (Beam Overload), this gives beams the least opportunity cost from using them.
It also would indirectly boost the effectiveness of DEM, and Torpedoes across the board since APB, FOMM and Delta debuff, would for the former raise DEMs effective damage to be noticable again, which would make teams carry more hull heals. Teams carrying more hull heals would then have a little less shield healing at their disposal as well. which means Torpedoes, which not only benefit Tremendously from enemy hull being debuffed (Superiorly to all infact including beam overload), but also have more opportunities to strike home, due to there being less shield heals to keep enemy facings up.
Grav Well would also receive an indirect boost from it, since it's damage went to TRIBBLE, without tactical debuffs helping it.
Infact I would prioritize this change over almost any others save for changes to Siphon Drones or any possible nerfs to Shield Distribution Officers.
TT is why the old Deadly Broadside Excelsior (and all her cousins) doesn't work like it should anymore. It's also why DEM isn't really good at providing pressure anymore either, because it insta clears all hull debuffs for it's full duration.
PPS this also indirectly boosts Disruptor weapons, as Disruptors stacked quite nicely with ABP, FOMM, and APD. Anything to give people more incentives to Not Use Phasers is a great thing.
Comments
Go away... man its crazy how fast one dev post turns a pvp thread into a pve thread.
First off if you feel like Tac team is needed for pve you must have one terrible pve build.... its a good skill yes... but trust me we got through pve content prior to the tac team change. lol
Honesty saying that the PvE in this game requires anything is hiliarious.
Honstly I just got through a round of pugging stfs on 8 or 9 of my toons... ya I know I needed some dilithium... damn though the average skill level in a puged stf is so insanely low... I was playing with people that didin't distriubue there shields at all... had rainbow builds... and I don't mean just a few I was in one Pug Infected where really all 4 of them had rainbow builds.
Tac Team needs a good wack with the nerf bat... for PVE never mind PvP.
Thats why I am really liking the idea... right now there is far to much tac team all over the place... this would make healers so much more important... and engi healers that can afford to not be using the team distribute on themselevs even more important.
We have been talking accross a bunch of threads the last few days about ways to make engi cruisers more viable... I think this change would add to that for sure... I would think healing sci and healing cruisers would be the only answer to getting this effect thrown on the focus targets... I think it would be a great dynamic to throw into the team game.
Really cause the escorts won't be chaining Tac Teams either... are you saying the majority of players have the chops to pilot an escort with out dual distributing tac teams... I doubt many of them do... Frankly if you take it away from escorts. (or allow them to have it at the cost of 3 doffs)....
We go back to the way the game was 1.5 years ago... when the best escort pilots flew escorts... and the terrible escorts flew there tac cruisers instead.
Hey man... there are certain things, including but not limited to tec team, that affect all of us so why can't we discuss this as PLAYERS rather than as PvE'ers and PvP'ers (or US and THEM for a better analogy)
EPS is in the middle of the skill tree, not too expensive.
We can and every pvper left at this point talks about pve balance when they talk about changes... I was simply commenting on how one dev post starts turning up posts from people that obviously are just following the dev tracker and would otherwise never step into thread about balance.
Its so easy to want them to add more and more toys... all of which make pve easier and easier... but one dev mentions that something might need adjusting and the knives come out pretty quick from that crowd... I mean look at all the new toys in the game since the tac team change. I don't know even with the terrible stf pugs I still manage to accomplish the mission bonuses 95% of the time... I mean damn I remember me and a fleet mate ending up being the only 2 to start an infected when 3 of our fleet mates got DQed 15 seconds in... we completed that sucker with 6 min on the board with 2 of us... and these people argue that tac team would kill pve... it more then annoys me it sort of Pi**es me off.
What the game needs is a complete overhaul of the space combat system such that player balance is set before NPCs are even thought of. If we bring damage buffs down and set a limit to the maximum damage ANY player can do and then find out the average casual players damage is so that you can set heals accordingly and then bring sci back in in a way that allows them to mess with that but not TRIBBLE it up completely (such are the problems with running 3 classes). once this is sorted such that the best tac/scort and eng/cruiser are balanced and negate one another, you can think about NPCs as PvP will be perfectly balanced.
The NPCs should come in about half way between the max damage and the average damage, this way there is room for variety in boff skills as well as those optimised builds to do well in PvE... in effect you can take the worst of the worst and survive PvE, you can take the average and do.. well average in PvE then you can take your PvP build and do well in PvE but not to the point that anything (except the worst of the worst builds) look or feel utterly rubbish.
When this is done you just add new ships based on the player balance, if it does not fit this balance then it is broken, if it under-performs then it needs an improvement, if you want to run P2W then you create above average ships that don't break the balance i.e the Excelsior (better than free but doesn't break the balance) and you wouldn't need P2L as nothing would be THAT powerful.
Your ideas?
I didn't really know how to play the game effectively until after TT got the Shield ReDistro. I wonder how anybody made it before then.
It wasn't really that hard... but yes your point is valid. Also sorry to take any frustration out on you. In general in past threads a dev makes a post where we are having a real conversation, and beforeyou know it the thread gets derailed in general by people that don't even take the time to read anything posted before the dev post. In the past is has been used as an excuse by some of our devs to simply NOT post there thoughts at all. Bort does try to add his 2 cents here and there and we appreciate it of course... I wouldn't assume he is planning to completely kill the tac team dynamic that exists. It shouldn't be shocking to anyone at this point that the skill has a rework coming... I mean its plainly OP, pve or pvp.
Unless you're saying that people would require a dedicated healer because they wouldn't figure out to use it if it wasn't tied to an easily accessible ensign skill? I have low faith in pugs, but not that low.
True, but if they find it that way and reply without having read even the OP it does. This wasn't a 20 page thread with a murky title. This is not at all my experience. But to each his own. If it took 3 purple doffs to get to the effect of the current TT I would be trying to skimp with 1 or 2. True, and tacs would rejoice as well because their FOMM and APB would not be cleared.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
i don't want to argue if escort damage on average is higher now then ever, but i certainly think spike damage is higher, purple mkXII weapons and consoles have seen to that, along with 5 tac console escorts. a game without TT's distribution would basically be like playing a station powerless match, an escort would win that every time. every one would take escorts, because that the only thing capable of killing, and every fight between escorts would end in a single pass, it really would look like DS9. TT is the only thing that can save you from fully buffed alphas, nothing else can counter it.
oh keep the distribute around in something else? ok thats fine. i think the tac debuff clear should just be rediced to 1-4 seconds, but i guess that works too.
is it possible to have less then 0 faith in them?
1) Keep the Tactical Team shield distribution the way it is.
2) Increase the damage buff.
3) Give Science Team and Engineering Team shield distribution as well.
4) Keep duration 10 seconds for Tactical Team, and increase the duration of Science Team and Engineering Team to 10 seconds.
5) Change the shield and hull heals to heals over time, rather than instant.
This way, everyone is happy...no?
No, Sci team lasting 10 seconds and distributing shields would completely kill off a lot of sci skills. Engi team probably wouldn't be as bad, but still.
One thing to keep in mind, all cannon builds that have a 3rd Tac Ensign slot already struggle to fill those Tac Ensign slots.
Increasing the cost on Tac Team means you:
1) Lose out on higher tier powers that are generally critical to damage output.
2) Now have to fill at least 2 Tac Ensign slots with something. This is OK if you like Torpedos and DBBs, and completely build destroying if you don't.
Now if Tac Team did the following:
and then:
Manual Shield Distribution was massively improved
Then I think this would be a better way to go for changing TT personally.
I think this would become the defacto 3x DOFF choice on every ship (based on team skill chosen), the way SDOs are right now.
IMO, this limits builds in the same way everyone using TT does now, except it limits DOFF slots instead of Tac BOFF slots and for that reason I dislike it.
This takes a critical ability, shield distribution, and places it squarely into DOFF only territory (again, unless some massive improvements were made to manual distribution).
It also totally forces you to specialize at that point, either TT or ST or ET and this is not really better than the situation we're in now (due to the DOFFs not working across all team skills)
I'd much rather see a solution that allows the team skills to play friendlier with each other than we have now.
Go away yourself... Man, it's crazy how fast one guy turns this into a 'pvp vs. pve' thread.
Has it ever occured to you that NPC damage output simply is, and always has been, tuned to the tools available for people to defend themselves?
Fact of the matter is, there are already signs missions are getting tougher (possibly in preparation of new and better gear?). Not a bad thing, per se; but no, you can't really tank an Elite Borg cube without the shield distribution that comes with TT. And no, not you either. Or are you just one of those guys that allows himself to simply die often and be carried by others? If not, you need means to stay alive. And no, just gratuitously yelling "Hey, I'm the big bad PvP-er, I can do anything!" won't cut it. You are subject to the same rules and game-mechanics as everyone else.
Do you really think this thread is the appropriate venue to voice your frustrations with the pug's rainbow builds? Perhaps it even is (after all, pretty much anything goes); but your issues with the pug have nothing to do with TT.
Yeah, yeah, we get it: you look down on PvE-ers, you think they have it way too easy, and you love every opportunity to see them nerfed, just to underline how bad-TRIBBLE you are yourself, right? I played EVE. Trust me, all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.
More pointless e-peening from you. What's next? You're gonna tell us you solo-ed an Elite Infected and still made the Optional?
N.B. Is this the thing that usually goes on in PvP threads, people just endlessly showing off the size of their d*ck?! Seriously, is this what it's normally like, people talking about the need for one skill, with others yelling "You don't need that; I can tank the entire room myself, and moar!!" Frankly, I'm not impressed. Actually, I think it's a bit pathetic. Then again, in a room full of male PvP-ers, what was I expecting, right?
LOL.
The only point was Pve Is already stupid easy... and it was just as easy before tac team became the poor mans rsp it is today. The npcs have not changed much no matter what people want to believe.
If anything Cryptic has made pve even easier... sure there are the odd one shot hits in STFS... still that doesn't at all make it any harder. Unless you really have a team full of useless players.
Call it epeen swinging if it makes you feel better... but frankly any PvPer that has jumped in a team full of other pvp players to run some PvE understands... PvE is way way to easy.
Frankly dialing back a handful of skills to make pve a bit harder isn't such a bad idea. If in the process pvp ends up a little more balanced thats not a bad thing either.
The 'easiness' of PvE very much depends on the quality of the rest of your team. If everyone is doing their part, it's a breeze. If not, and you become pretty much the sole brunt of the angry cubes and spheres, well, then you'll need your TT pairs.
Naturally, you could take away TT and let people continually die, but where's the fun in that? In fact, more importantly, it undermines the sense of having some sort of control. Or at least the skills and tools to give you said control. If you take away people's means to tank effectively, and there's nothing they can do about it, skill-, doff-, or otherwise, then what's the point of even playing? Then it's literally become a 'No Win' scenario. And I think any game, not just STO, should give ppl the tools to overcome NPC adversity. That's the sport.
Since we're doing the e-peen thing. I beat Elite STFs in DSSV aux healboats. :P
The dude is completely right, TacTeam has more value in PvP.
Besides which, decoupling the ability of redistribution to a separate power will still allow you to slot it, but it won't have the double whammy of making Tac debuffs useless by default.
So you'll still have your shield redistribution crutch, but the PvPers will get a nice Tac buff in return.
Don't sweat it anyway. Cryptic won't do anything that will severely inconvenience PvErs anyway.
PvP is lower in priority than PvE to them, sad to say.
If these people would use keybinds and add shield distribution to their spacebar, they could get away without using TacTeam all the time.
Switch to shield power from time to time as well.
The problem with a lot of these people is they never do these things because of ignorance, so naturally they think TacTeam is the only thing that works.
It's amazing how often I have to keep throwing TacTeam on dudes, because they don't know how to redistribute their shields.
A bit of a strawman, as I've seen no one dispute that.
I can live with that, kinda (as long as there will be an equally good shield distribution skill that will go in the ensign slot as well). For PvE, the dude is completely right, lol: you don't need the tact buffs, per se (although this will hurt cruisers further). But you *do* need effective ways to tank.
Are you suggesting manual shield distribution is as effective as the one TT offers? Cuz it's not. Even at TT1 the shield distro is much more powerful than what you can accomplish manually.
And, erm, no, with 2x EPtS running, there's no need to switch to shield power from time to time: my shields have more power than they're ever going to need.
Speaking of strawmen. I never said manual distribution was as effective as TacTeam, merely that you don't need constant TT coverage in PvE. And that those dumb pugs who get blown up in PvE could survive more readily if they relied on distribution as well.
I rarely use TT at all in PvE and I draw aggro from mobs too. Maybe they need to make builds that don't blow balls? They need to learn from PvPers like Mavairo and others who post in my siglink, then they won't blow up as often.
In PvP where people can output 100k damage in a short while is where TacTeam has the most benefit. Therefore any subsequent hypothetical nerf to the power has relevance to PvP not PvE, no matter how fail build using players think otherwise.
Anyway, your entire decision to whine in this thread was based on the idea that Bort was going to nerf TT, but he said nothing of the sort, he just said the power was going to get a look at in the future.
And like I mentioned earlier, PvErs get priority over PvPers, so if they thought the power would weaken PvErs (wrong or right), they won't do it.
Now you're just deliberately playing dumb. Or did you really think he was planning to review TT, so as to make it even more powerful? Be honest now, for a moment.
And it was possible to play pve and pvp and it was fun.
Yesterday i played a couple of pug pvp. And there are still a lot of players that dont use tacteam and/or dont know that distributing shields is a must in space combat.
New players dont know that u can bind shild distribution to the spacebar.
_______________________________________________________________________
First: remove shield distribution from tac team
Second: make the manual shield distribution more effective maybe depending on skillpoints spent into starship eps
Third: bind shield distribution to the spacebar as a standart setting
Fourth: decrease shield resists an epts (makes rsf more usefull) or give shield resists only for 5s like the all energy dmg bonus on eptw
Fifth: double the shield regeneration, so shields regenerate every 3s instead of 6s
Please read the original post. I really am not getting the impression that you have yet. You are arguing against taking away TT, which I did not propose. I said let's look at the elements of TT that make it essential and break them up so they can be used in different ways.
I hope this means you're catching on to what I actually suggested with this thread. But part of the problem with TT is that it so effective for so little cost. I think the fact that the shield redistribution only costs an ensign slot is something that should be changed.
Also, I couldn't disagree more with tac buffs in PvE. For stf optionals you need tac buffs first and foremost. If you are tanking you are not choosing the best strategy for completing optionals. Tac buffed tric mines are pretty much all you need.
Again, I couldn't disagree with you more. You are arguing against any opportunity loss. Some ability choices should be either/or. Strengthening one area should cost you the ability to strengthen another. This is a pretty fundamental difference of opinion on how games should work, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I think the best change to TT I've seen so far was one I jacked from someone else. They seemed to have abandoned the idea so I'll carry it.
TT should only clear tac debuffs for 4 seconds.
This has a Huge impact on pvp, and it would dramatically affect healing and the way healing is performed in STO. Abilities like APB, the APD Debuff and Fire on my mark would not only become useful but Desirable again, which in the case of APB would tremendously help tactical beam boats like the Excelsior and Regent... helping those means you sell more of them. Selling more Cstore ships = more money for you. More money for you = good thing, yes? The reason beam boats benefit so much from this is due to there being only One decent beam skill (Beam Overload), this gives beams the least opportunity cost from using them.
It also would indirectly boost the effectiveness of DEM, and Torpedoes across the board since APB, FOMM and Delta debuff, would for the former raise DEMs effective damage to be noticable again, which would make teams carry more hull heals. Teams carrying more hull heals would then have a little less shield healing at their disposal as well. which means Torpedoes, which not only benefit Tremendously from enemy hull being debuffed (Superiorly to all infact including beam overload), but also have more opportunities to strike home, due to there being less shield heals to keep enemy facings up.
Grav Well would also receive an indirect boost from it, since it's damage went to TRIBBLE, without tactical debuffs helping it.
Infact I would prioritize this change over almost any others save for changes to Siphon Drones or any possible nerfs to Shield Distribution Officers.
TT is why the old Deadly Broadside Excelsior (and all her cousins) doesn't work like it should anymore. It's also why DEM isn't really good at providing pressure anymore either, because it insta clears all hull debuffs for it's full duration.
PPS this also indirectly boosts Disruptor weapons, as Disruptors stacked quite nicely with ABP, FOMM, and APD. Anything to give people more incentives to Not Use Phasers is a great thing.