Tactical Team is definitely a high priority review that will take place after Season 7 is released. As a result of that power review, it's possible that changes may also be made to Engineering Team and Science Team, but that has yet to be determined with any level of finality.
I don't understand why teams aren't effected by crew, aka the larger crew you have the more effective teams are, Say they use a percentage of the able crew of your ship the total number used could serve as a modifier to increase the effectiveness of the ability. So a big cruisers and science ships with a much larger able crew will do increase hull heal and science team increased shield heal with a regeneration over time of the amount over healed. Tactical team could have its weapon damage duration increased....
Becuase honestly crew needs to be worth something besides passive regeneration.
I hope this means you're catching on to what I actually suggested with this thread. But part of the problem with TT is that it so effective for so little cost. I think the fact that the shield redistribution only costs an ensign slot is something that should be changed.
So, now we're going from merely decoupling to not having shield distro for ensign slots at all? How fast the nerf wheels turn! Besides, the way ships are currently designed, often with a single tact ensign station (for use with TT1 in mind), means you would, indeed, break the game. It's like saying the ensign engineering slot can no longer be used for EPtS1.
Also, I couldn't disagree more with tac buffs in PvE. For stf optionals you need tac buffs first and foremost. If you are tanking you are not choosing the best strategy for completing optionals. Tac buffed tric mines are pretty much all you need.
Staying alive is *always* the best strategy for Optionals: you're no good to anyone, with your buffed 5 tact consoles, when you're dead, and out of the game for half-a-minute. If you can do a lot of DPS on top of that, great! but you need to be able to stay in the fight, foremost.
And buffed tricobalt mines? Is that some sort of secret PvP thing, whilst the rest of the world uses DHCs and aft turrets? I shall look ito it.
Again, I couldn't disagree with you more. You are arguing against any opportunity loss. Some ability choices should be either/or. Strengthening one area should cost you the ability to strengthen another. This is a pretty fundamental difference of opinion on how games should work, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Everyone needs shields. It's a meta-skill, in that sense.
Also, it makes sense to put, say, ES and RSP on the same cooldown, as they both belong to the same subsystem-class. But to effectively block engineers from repping their hull, simply because, gawd forbid, they want shields too, has never made good sense. It's not a deal breaker, though, as angineers can always resort to Miracle Worker III too, if need be (but it comes with a significantly longer cooldown).
So, now we're going from merely decoupling to not having shield distro for ensign slots at all? How fast the nerf wheels turn! Besides, the way ships are currently designed, often with a single tact ensign station (for use with TT1 in mind), means you would, indeed, break the game. It's like saying the ensign engineering slot can no longer be used for EPtS1.
You really haven't read my original post. There would still be shield redistribution available at an ensign slot, but with an increased cost. You quoted me but you didn't actually get my point.
I think the fact that the shield redistribution only costs an ensign slot is something that should be changed.
I understand how you mistunderstood it to mean that I think shield redistribution shouldn't be available at ensign, but if you'd started from the beginning of this you would understand, and you wouldn't be so bent out of shape over what you consider a nerf.
My proposal is that at a slightly higher cost we could attach the shield redistribution to any of the 3 team abilities. Please stop making it out that I want to remove shield redistribution.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
You really haven't read my original post. There would still be shield redistribution available at an ensign slot, but with an increased cost. You quoted me but you didn't actually get my point.
I think the proposed cost is too high for something as basic as improved shield distribution.
My proposal is that at a slightly higher cost we could attach the shield redistribution to any of the 3 team abilities. Please stop making it out that I want to remove shield redistribution.
Again, I think the cost is much higher than that.
Forcing Escorts (and other ships for that matter) out of skills like APO 1, CRF2 and into ensign skills they don't really want to use or actually have no use for is a fairly huge cost, on top of that they also need 3x purple DOFFs to make it work.
That's a very high price.
I think the following are higher priority.
RSP & EPTS lockout to stay in place.
SDOs should be brought in line.
I also think that ES should be looked at again, and there should be some cost associated when using it (not necessarily the one that has CD linked with EPTS - maybe something like an incremental power drain to shield subsystem powerlevel similar to when you keep your ship going in reverse, perhaps it could start at the 10s mark).
TT's debuff cleanses should be brought in line with the other Team debuff cleanses (ST & ET currently 5s).
Once all that is done, then TT's shield distribution could be looked at if there are still issues.
I think that the above 4 changes would be a pretty large scale change to shield tanking alone.
I think the proposed cost is too high for something as basic as improved shield distribution.
Well thats the point its far from basic. New tac team has quadrupled the amount of shields players have. It allows ships that should NOT be the tanks like escorts with 2 tac teams to be the tanks....
Now that would be fine if they where trading something useful for that functionality. However lets be honest they trade NOTHING at all for it. 2 ensign level slots that have almost zero value right now... lets be honest before new tac team many of us had a tac team down there anyway cause there was no point in slotting anything else... if you dropped if of your bar you wouldn't worry about it. I used to hit tac team out of battle to regen crew just to make the RPer in me feel better. lol
Yes some players would not choose to have the redistribution effect at all... and thats ok... some would only slot one doff and have a reduced effect to what they have now....
Some people would feel they needed it and slot 3... and have to give something real up to have it... and the way RedR is talking about doing it they could choose to tie the skill to say a Sci team 1 or Engi team 1.... or perhaps its a heal boat and he ties it to Engi Team... and Runs Engi team 3 with 2 maintence doffs as well for a 15 second uber heal for his teammates.
There isn't enough choice when it comes to tac team right now... it clears tactical debuffs (which used to be the main way to kill people) almost all the time if you run 2 copies... and the shield spin is far to good for a skill with Zero Opportunity cost.
Forcing Escorts (and other ships for that matter) out of skills like APO 1, CRF2 and into ensign skills they don't really want to use or actually have no use for is a fairly huge cost, on top of that they also need 3x purple DOFFs to make it work.
That's a very high price.
I'm not proposing bumping the teams up from ensign. Only tying the shield redistribution to doffs so that the increased cost comes from the competition with other doffs.
I think 1 or 3 doffs to get the desired effect as well as what quality it would take would require tweaking.
I suspect that if it took 3 purples to get the current effect there are a lot of situations people would find they could make it through with 1 or 2 purples.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
It allows ships that should NOT be the tanks like escorts with 2 tac teams to be the tanks....
There are no tanks in PvP.
This bring up the question, who are the tanks?
Cruisers are not tanks, they are healboats.
I think if the concept of a true tank is not relevant in PvP, then worrying about the ship class that gets heavily focus fired and has the worst shields available having access to something like TT is also not relevant (since it's also available to everyone).
I also think if the other changes I suggested above were first implemented the environment would change enough that Tac Team might not need a reworking.
Now that would be fine if they where trading something useful for that functionality. However lets be honest they trade NOTHING at all for it. 2 ensign level slots that have almost zero value right now...
Those two ensign slots would go back to having zero value.
There isn't enough choice when it comes to tac team right now... it clears tactical debuffs (which used to be the main way to kill people) almost all the time if you run 2 copies...
I agree on the debuffs, that's why I suggest it be reduced to 5s debuff cleanse the same as ST & ET.
That creates a much larger opening for tactical debuffs.
I also think the other changes I suggested above would be sufficient.
EDIT:
Here's another thought.
What if FOMM acted like APB?
In that, APB is both a buff (to your guns) for the duration of the power, as well as a Debuff (on the target).
With TT's debuff cleanse brought down to 5s, we'd go from a situation where there is a 10s window of debuff opportunity (in a 30s time frame) to a 20s window within a 30s time frame.
On top of this, FOMM would go from being a 2 min cooldown power that could be cleared in an instant to a sticky power that could get reapplied within the 30s duration of the power.
I'm not proposing bumping the teams up from ensign. Only tying the shield redistribution to doffs so that the increased cost comes from the competition with other doffs.
I'm sorry, I think I got partly confused with another suggestion that pushed the distribution effect to higher tiers of the skill.
OTOH, it it does still have a very high cost for builds that are all cannons IMO.
I'll agree that the current overall situation is not perfect, but I also think the suggestions I made above are the better place to start.
I think if manual distribution was improved, that I'd be more interested in seeing changes to TTs distribution.
I run a Sci ship on one toon with a hull tanking build, (for the lulzy), i can tell you point blank that without tac team spike PVE damage can and will cut through a sheild facing, (yes i manually re-distribute my sheilds and becuase of other factors can easiyl rund 125 Aux and 125 Sheild Power), and blow a big chunk out of your hull and there's nothing you can do about it. Now since i can spike heal for 45K hull over 15 seconds, (without the borg proc), thats not an issue on my sci ship even if they continue to pound that sheild facing as for as long as HE3 lasts i can heal through their damage and then some. But on a sheild tank setup this would be devestating as there's no way for them to reliably repair that hull damage before they get spiked again, (and belive me these spikes happen far more frequently than you can handle with just Aux2SIF and maybe an eng team), or deal with an enemy thats pounding on a red sheild facing, they just can't heal that much hull.
The fact is if you don't want to be incrediblly vulnrable to spike damage in PVE you need tac team on a sheild build. Without it sooner or later they will cut you down with a relativlly normal attack you completly unable to do anything about it.
And thats just for ships like my sci.
For cruisers setup as tanks am it's a non-starter of epic proportions. They tend to attract far more incoming fire than any other ship, especially when setup for it. Without the full range of self heals they have acess to and the benefit of redistribute they can't hope to handle the inbound effectivlly. You could argue in that case that maybe cruisers should get it as some sort of defualt passive but that does nothign about everyone else and spike damage.
I agree however that ta team need the redistribute removd. But i disagree with solutions like doffs. Thats taking away one build limitation and adding another in it's place which defeats the point of the change. he redistribute needs to be freely avalibile to everyone without a build limiting downside. IMHO the correct anwser is to look at sheild healing in general. My passive regen on MACO sheilds on a cruiser cycling EPtS2 along can hold of 5K orth of dps. Proc TSS1 with and Aux battery up and i can hold of 27K DPS for the length of the heal. ES2 + Passive regen is 10.7K hold off, (and can be sustained), and as long as a target is doing less than 29K DPS he EPtS2 heal + passive regen will hold off thenm breaking your sheilds.
I think if the concept of a true tank is not relevant in PvP, then worrying about the ship class that gets heavily focus fired and has the worst shields available having access to something like TT is also not relevant (since it's also available to everyone).
Those two ensign slots would go back to having zero value.
I agree on the debuffs, that's why I suggest it be reduced to 5s debuff cleanse the same as ST & ET.
I'm sorry, I think I got partly confused with another suggestion that pushed the distribution effect to higher tiers of the skill.
OTOH, it it does still have a very high cost for builds that are all cannons IMO.
Sorry to snip so much just didn't want to go through the whole thing.
You are mostly right about tanks... I know we all just say there are no tanks in pvp... and what most people think as tanking doesn't exist no. However a properly played Cruiser Healboat is basicly a Heal tank. They will have to tank enough dmg to be able to continue providing heals... if they can't tank some fire the other team will simply target them for 10 seconds force there heals and then lay waste to there team.
I know you don't think cannon scorts would pay any price for running 3 new "distro" doffs. However I disagree I sort of think most escorts won't even bother running them... or they will run 1... running 3 of them leaves only 2 boff slots... so the 3 BFI magic free RSP isn't an option... you can't stack 2-3 sub nuke doffs anymore... you could still slot 2 Attack pattern Doffs... but that would fill up your slots. I think bottom line is you would have to make some major decisions... right now there is no real decision to make in a cannon escort... you run 3 Shield Distro Doffs... and 2 of what ever you fancy.
Everyone would still have the option to run a Tac Team 1 in there ensign slot... they would simply have to decide how important the distribution effect is to them... if its not they save 3 doff slots... if its supper important they have to burn 3 doff slots... and people could choose to slot 1 or 2 if they wish as well.
I agree with you on the cleans as well... 5s I think is right... its what tac team used to do... and should do again. IMO
Also I like your thoughts on FOMM... not sure if that might not make it to powerful... I like the idea though... perhaps that change could come with a slightly higher cool down on it... say 3 min instead of 2... but 30 seconds of FOMM debuff to weapon dmg... that is interesting.
it doesn't go far enough. 1 second clear, on all 3 team skills
I swear you people are like devs. the only time you listen to me is when I make the special youtube video links or get snippy!
(as far as youtube links. I'll have to find one for some kind of "personal hygiene" product that I haven't used yet. Gimme time I'll find one :-P )
if you don't make a post you could potentially get banned for, your doing it wrong!
I just want you to know I'm archiving this.
And it confirms my suspicion. You guys love seeing how far I can push it before I take a special vacation
Pure comedic gold that post is.
This is the obvious and easy solution. It would fix everything. But I'd actually like to take it one step further:
- Keep the distribute
- Clear debuffs on activation
- Increased +to damage, especially for the higher versions!!!
Today there is no reason to run TT2 or 3, as TT1 does all the usefull stuff.
In addition to clearing debuffs on activation, I think the different versions should:
TT1 - +30% to all damage
TT2 - +30%+30% to all damage
TT3 - +30%+30%+30% to all damage
basically making each step count as one extra tac console. That might make the higher versions more popular? Even if they're competing against other extremely powerful abilities.
I think bottom line is you would have to make some major decisions... right now there is no real decision to make in a cannon escort... you run 3 Shield Distro Doffs... and 2 of what ever you fancy.
That's very true, but I think one part of that is the massive power of SDOs as well as another part (a smaller part) is the poor choices available in Tactical DOFFs.
IMO:
> PWOS are overly specific, and obviously useless for all cannon builds.
> Energy DOFFs either leave too much to chance (cannon doffs) or buff something that does nothing for cannon builds (beam doffs of both types).
> Conn has nice options, but you're limited in that you can only slot 3 total from Conn. So if you're min maxing, you basically pick 1 of them and run with it. Also, only running 1 copy of TT with TT Doffs frees up an Ensign slot an all cannon build can't make use of.
Also I like your thoughts on FOMM... not sure if that might not make it to powerful... I like the idea though... perhaps that change could come with a slightly higher cool down on it... say 3 min instead of 2... but 30 seconds of FOMM debuff to weapon dmg... that is interesting.
Yeah, it would definitely need to be tested thoroughly but could be a good direction to make FOMM something to be feared.
it doesn't go far enough. 1 second clear, on all 3 team skills
The issue with this would mean that Tac Team would be completely useless vs. Attack Pattern Beta - which would continually re-apply its debuff every time you attack the target.
This would mean you'd clear the debuff to have it almost instantly reapplied.
But I'd actually like to take it one step further:
- Clear debuffs on activation
See above.
An example:
3x AP Conn DOFF brings APB CD to 16s.
APB buffs your guns for 10s, marking the target and debuffing their resistance for 5s - which continually reapplies. Effectively allowing for 15s of debuff as long as you keep attacking the target.
This would mean a single Escort with 3x AP Conn DOFFs could keep APB3 with -50% Resistance on a target almost permanently, as long as they continue to attack the target.
The target would only be able to give themselves 1s of respite from this every 15s cycle if TT only cleared debuffs on activation.
So, you mean to say Escorts and co would actually ahve to throw TT to friendlies after 4 seconds of TT coverage to insure safety instead of just having TT sit there, uselessly until they are fired upon.
It would clear debuffs on it's own for 5sec.
Hell even in terms of self applying it would totally change the sequence that you fire TT off. Do you fire off at the start of a enemy attack? or do you wait?
So, you mean to say Escorts and co would actually ahve to throw TT to friendlies after 4 seconds of TT coverage to insure safety instead of just having TT sit there, uselessly until they are fired upon.
It would clear debuffs on it's own for 5sec.
I was responding to the above posters suggesting a 1s only debuff cleanse, or a cleanse on activation (which is 1s, effectively).
Even a full team with 2x TT could not possibly keep you from being constantly debuffed by APB.
I took their suggestions to mean that the debuff cleanse would literally, only last for 1s.
Your suggestion of 4s cleanse, is right around what I think is a good number (I propose 5s, the same as ST and ET but I think we're both saying the same thing on this point).
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the idea I put forward earlier in the thread about changing FOMM to work like APB with a buff to the guns, and mark to the target that could be re-applied?
As opposed to now, where it is a single debuff effect that does not reapply.
This is the obvious and easy solution. It would fix everything. But I'd actually like to take it one step further:
- Keep the distribute
- Clear debuffs on activation
- Increased +to damage, especially for the higher versions!!!
Today there is no reason to run TT2 or 3, as TT1 does all the usefull stuff.
In addition to clearing debuffs on activation, I think the different versions should:
TT1 - +30% to all damage
TT2 - +30%+30% to all damage
TT3 - +30%+30%+30% to all damage
basically making each step count as one extra tac console. That might make the higher versions more popular? Even if they're competing against other extremely powerful abilities.
i agree with this, on activation basically equals the 1 second clear as far as im concerned. and with how APB works, there sould be an immunity from reapplication from the source the cleared beta, or delta came from for 10 seconds. so if someone uses TT, and THEN you use APB on them, they could not clear it. or change Beta to work the same way FOMM works.
as far as the tac buff goes, i would have it be +15, +30 might be a bit much. TT2 would be 1 extra console for 10 seconds, and TT3 would be a console and a half. thats still a large buff.
separating the distribute and creating a new station skill would be an unprecedented act at this point, thats NEVER been done. console powers sure, but never a station power
I was responding to the above posters suggesting a 1s only debuff cleanse, or a cleanse on activation (which is 1s, effectively).
Even a full team with 2x TT could not possibly keep you from being constantly debuffed by APB.
I took their suggestions to mean that the debuff cleanse would literally, only last for 1s.
Your suggestion of 4s cleanse, is right around what I think is a good number (I propose 5s, the same as ST and ET but I think we're both saying the same thing on this point).
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the idea I put forward earlier in the thread about changing FOMM to work like APB with a buff to the guns, and mark to the target that could be re-applied?
As opposed to now, where it is a single debuff effect that does not reapply.
Gotcha.
I think it might need balancing later. but I love the initial idea. it would also give it a use in this TT world we have as even a 4 second clear still makes a mockery of the captain skill in question.
I'm honestly flabbergasted no one here seems to get it. Why was Tac Team chosen to include shield distribution in the first place? To bolster Tac team? Or to concentrate FUN stuff so that the average player, who has ABYSMAL knowledge and skill can more easily get FUN stuff? Perhaps it was a good way to do both?
I hear people talk about balance and move and counter move. NONE of that matters to the average players outside the little hardcore PvP bubble that most people in this forum live in. To them all of that is BS because ET and ST are just not as fun to use as TT. Its that simple. TT makes you move faster, makes it so you don't have to click as much (binding is as arcane to the average player as 5th dimensional math is to most of us, and will remain that way regardless of anything that is done about it, please, lets not waste time arguing that point) AND makes you have MORE DAKKA!!! That is FUN and exciting. Makes you want to cheer! ET and ST are heals... yay.
The biggest beneficiaries were probably cruiser pilots, having to use TT as a given is a great help because it lets you have MORE FUN flying your ship instead of using boff slots with yet more heals... yay. Same with an escort, and a sci ship (although sci ships can be more about asymmetrical attack vectors, so they are a bit weird in that regard).
Everyone seems to be forgetting that this imbalance was likely ON PURPOSE as a way to make players have to make less difficult choices so they could have more fun. If the solution isn't to make ET and ST more FUN to use they can be removed altogether. Does anyone think that deep strategic considerations are given any due in the average player's playstyle? Does anyone here really think that devoting more time to acting on things with the exact correct counter would be more fun than immersing into flying your ships? If you want to move and counter move then Eve is probably a better game for you, STO is about flying your ship. I realize the rest of the game may make STO more attractive to some here, and that changing the parts you don't like to be more Eve-like seems like a solution to you. But understand that what you want and the game regular STO players want are different things.
In the past I might've have thought the hardcore pvpers might be on to something that I just wasn't getting , but after the recent shared CD debacle I no longer think so at all. The main argument was that the shared CDs created gaps in defense.... THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT!!! Hardcore pvp is so healer-centric that its clouded people's views on what was a good solution.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that this imbalance was likely ON PURPOSE as a way to make players have to make less difficult choices so they could have more fun. If the solution isn't to make ET and ST more FUN to use they can be removed altogether. Does anyone think that deep strategic considerations are given any due in the average player's playstyle? Does anyone here really think that devoting more time to acting on things with the exact correct counter would be more fun than immersing into flying your ships? If you want to move and counter move then Eve is probably a better game for you, STO is about flying your ship. I realize the rest of the game may make STO more attractive to some here, and that changing the parts you don't like to be more Eve-like seems like a solution to you. But understand that what you want and the game regular STO players want are different things.
You have a good argument, albeit, IMHO, steered somewhat too much towards alleged simple-minded folks just wanting to have fun, and life on easy-street.
From my perspective, shield distribution should always remain low cost, simply because shields are so basic. So, you can't just say "We could start off in a place where it takes 3 purple doffs to get the current level of redistribution," as needing 3 doffs (out of 5), just to keep the current level of distribution going, would so disproportionally tax the current doff-system, that doing so would effectively nullify it. 1 doff? Maybe. But even that's probably asking too much.
As others have argued too, can't really put shield distribution on anything else but ensign, either, as you can't ask escorts to sacrifice important things like BO2/CRF2, or up, just to have decent shield distro.
Were it up to me, I'd be okay with removing shield distribution from TT altogether, and make it an innate ship-abiliy (which it is now too, after a fashion, but too weak). So, just let ppl do it manually, be have the distribution be as good as that of TT.
You have a good argument, albeit, IMHO, steered somewhat too much towards alleged simple-minded folks just wanting to have fun, and life on easy-street.
snip, snip
Were it up to me, I'd be okay with removing shield distribution from TT altogether, and make it an innate ship-abiliy (which it is now too, after a fashion, but too weak). So, just let ppl do it manually, be have the distribution be as good as that of TT.
I would say the average player is not so simple minded as simply not caring about things in the level of detail a lot of people in this thread do. They want to have a fun time flying their ships ad leading their away teams.
I think your proposed solution is the best so far... but I don't see the desperate need to take out Shield Distro from something most players, once they learn how to use, WANT to use it at all times.
The change to shared CDs was far more important I think, especially for PvP. And yet that one got "revoked". That has made me doubt Cryptic even more than before. Finally a step in the right direction! Only to take it back because people complained the current pvp metagame might not include 100% uptime coverage. They SAY they want "interesting choices" but refused to allow for a simple priority and risk level choice.
I would say the average player is not so simple minded as simply not caring about things in the level of detail a lot of people in this thread do. They want to have a fun time flying their ships ad leading their away teams.
I think your proposed solution is the best so far... but I don't see the desperate need to take out Shield Distro from something most players, once they learn how to use, WANT to use it at all times.
The change to shared CDs was far more important I think, especially for PvP. And yet that one got "revoked". That has made me doubt Cryptic even more than before. Finally a step in the right direction! Only to take it back because people complained the current pvp metagame might not include 100% uptime coverage. They SAY they want "interesting choices" but refused to allow for a simple priority and risk level choice.
Here is where your argument falls apart however.
TT's current prowess as a tac debuff cleanser, takes away fun and Takes Away Dakka. You see, it's quite simple really, Simpleton A, shoots Hot Shot A. Simpleton A has absolutely attrocious buff timing and rotation. Simpleton A has Attack Pattern Beta, and FOMM hot heavy and ready to go. He blows his load, all of it, including those two. He swings as hard as he can time and time again onto Hot Shot A. Who just cracks open his emergency power to shields 1, and TT. And then promptly says ''lol'' at the use of APB. Hotshot A knows that TT defeats any and all amounts of incoming Attack pattern beta. There is nothing Simpleton A is going to be able to do to realistically kill Hotshot A now.
Hot Shot A, lets a gap form in his TTs, long enough to get down under 50 percent hull. Then promptly fully bangs out all his shield heals with a max go down fighting bonus. Unlike Simpleton A, however he doesn't have APB on his ship. He has APO. Just for kicks and the chance to pierce TT he blows that too in his counter swing. Hot Shot A, swings as hard as he can, and saves his Beam Overload or HY, for the coming gap in tac team coverage. Simpleton A gets vaped, in one pass.
Simpleton A, rages, calls Hot Shot A an TRIBBLE, A cheater, an exploiter, and alot of other not nice names.
Now for another example.
Simpleton B, has a Tac Excelsior (or Regent now). Now, in pre season 3 environments, this ship was pretty hot and sexy, thanks to APB and FOMM. Infact it was amazing. Great fun for anyone that wanted to fly a cruiser but didn't want to heal. He has 7 beams, and one Dual Beam array. He has APB1, DEM3, and BO3. now thanks to TT's stupid arsed change to clear for 8 seconds, he'll never do enough damage outside of 1v1s to realistically pressure anyone and make them melt. To make this ship work at all in pvp even on a casual level he would have to come to the forum, look at my most recent TacXcelsior build and change his weapons, and his boffs. Just to regain former glory. This is far far more effort than most people want to do. So he quits pvp, and or rages like simpleton A.
You can say "they did it for the rookies!' all you want, but frankly TT, actually Hurts the casual player more than it helps them by removing core and critical tactical debuffs from the field, permenately. It also tremendously increases the dependency of Sub Nucleonic beam to get anything done.
Which means it also forces the Sci Player to have to step his game up beyond just casual play in order for his team to perform well. It forces the casual player to either que in a team or hope his opponents aren't carrying science of their own.
Now do you want me to shoot down your whine that extends got it's shared removed? :P
You can say "they did it for the rookies!' all you want, but frankly TT, actually Hurts the casual player more than it helps them by removing core and critical tactical debuffs from the field, permenately. It also tremendously increases the dependency of Sub Nucleonic beam to get anything done.
Tactical debuffs, by themselves, without a means to counter them, are OP very soon (in EVE terms, it would be akin to having only ECM, and removing ECCM). Heck, even subnucleonic beam can be cleared (Science Team; thought it won't rebuff, of course).
Something which can always remove almost everything all the time, hmm, sounds indeed a bit OP too (see, in EVE they do this better; ECCM, while you can have it running permanently, doesn't remove debuffs altogether: it just makes it harder to debuff you).
Tactical debuffs, by themselves, without a means to counter them, are OP very soon (in EVE terms, it would be akin to having only ECM, and removing ECCM). Heck, even subnucleonic beam can be cleared (Science Team; thought it won't rebuff, of course).
Something which can always remove almost everything all the time, hmm, sounds indeed a bit OP too (see, in EVE they do this better; ECCM, while you can have it running permanently, doesn't remove debuffs altogether: it just makes it harder to debuff you).
Hence why I say TT needs to have it's duration of cleanse 1/2ed to 4 seconds.
I know what tac debuffs stacked can do, as pre season 3 that's what we Premade Boys did when we could. It actually wasn't all -that- bad for those of us that rolled up tough with Resilient Shields (I did it looong before it was "cool").
I'm for them keeping the skill as it is. I don't want 2 seperated skills for it as no one in their right mind would honestly take TT on it's own even for a 10 second tac debuff cleanse. It also clutters up the ensign slots which we don't need. It just needs the cleanse 1/2ed.
I like the OP's idea. Right now TT totally overshadows ST and ET in usefulness. The ability to harness those other teams without feeling sacrifing so much that TT provides would be nice.
Comments
I don't understand why teams aren't effected by crew, aka the larger crew you have the more effective teams are, Say they use a percentage of the able crew of your ship the total number used could serve as a modifier to increase the effectiveness of the ability. So a big cruisers and science ships with a much larger able crew will do increase hull heal and science team increased shield heal with a regeneration over time of the amount over healed. Tactical team could have its weapon damage duration increased....
Becuase honestly crew needs to be worth something besides passive regeneration.
[23:35] Horta deals 1738411 (1538303) Toxic Damage to Centurion Engineer with Corrosive Acid.
So, now we're going from merely decoupling to not having shield distro for ensign slots at all? How fast the nerf wheels turn! Besides, the way ships are currently designed, often with a single tact ensign station (for use with TT1 in mind), means you would, indeed, break the game. It's like saying the ensign engineering slot can no longer be used for EPtS1.
Staying alive is *always* the best strategy for Optionals: you're no good to anyone, with your buffed 5 tact consoles, when you're dead, and out of the game for half-a-minute. If you can do a lot of DPS on top of that, great! but you need to be able to stay in the fight, foremost.
And buffed tricobalt mines? Is that some sort of secret PvP thing, whilst the rest of the world uses DHCs and aft turrets? I shall look ito it.
Everyone needs shields. It's a meta-skill, in that sense.
Also, it makes sense to put, say, ES and RSP on the same cooldown, as they both belong to the same subsystem-class. But to effectively block engineers from repping their hull, simply because, gawd forbid, they want shields too, has never made good sense. It's not a deal breaker, though, as angineers can always resort to Miracle Worker III too, if need be (but it comes with a significantly longer cooldown).
So, yeah, let's disagree to agree.
You really haven't read my original post. There would still be shield redistribution available at an ensign slot, but with an increased cost. You quoted me but you didn't actually get my point. I understand how you mistunderstood it to mean that I think shield redistribution shouldn't be available at ensign, but if you'd started from the beginning of this you would understand, and you wouldn't be so bent out of shape over what you consider a nerf.
My proposal is that at a slightly higher cost we could attach the shield redistribution to any of the 3 team abilities. Please stop making it out that I want to remove shield redistribution.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I think the proposed cost is too high for something as basic as improved shield distribution.
Again, I think the cost is much higher than that.
Forcing Escorts (and other ships for that matter) out of skills like APO 1, CRF2 and into ensign skills they don't really want to use or actually have no use for is a fairly huge cost, on top of that they also need 3x purple DOFFs to make it work.
That's a very high price.
I think the following are higher priority.
Once all that is done, then TT's shield distribution could be looked at if there are still issues.
I think that the above 4 changes would be a pretty large scale change to shield tanking alone.
Well thats the point its far from basic. New tac team has quadrupled the amount of shields players have. It allows ships that should NOT be the tanks like escorts with 2 tac teams to be the tanks....
Now that would be fine if they where trading something useful for that functionality. However lets be honest they trade NOTHING at all for it. 2 ensign level slots that have almost zero value right now... lets be honest before new tac team many of us had a tac team down there anyway cause there was no point in slotting anything else... if you dropped if of your bar you wouldn't worry about it. I used to hit tac team out of battle to regen crew just to make the RPer in me feel better. lol
Yes some players would not choose to have the redistribution effect at all... and thats ok... some would only slot one doff and have a reduced effect to what they have now....
Some people would feel they needed it and slot 3... and have to give something real up to have it... and the way RedR is talking about doing it they could choose to tie the skill to say a Sci team 1 or Engi team 1.... or perhaps its a heal boat and he ties it to Engi Team... and Runs Engi team 3 with 2 maintence doffs as well for a 15 second uber heal for his teammates.
There isn't enough choice when it comes to tac team right now... it clears tactical debuffs (which used to be the main way to kill people) almost all the time if you run 2 copies... and the shield spin is far to good for a skill with Zero Opportunity cost.
I think 1 or 3 doffs to get the desired effect as well as what quality it would take would require tweaking.
I suspect that if it took 3 purples to get the current effect there are a lot of situations people would find they could make it through with 1 or 2 purples.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Well, it is basic, the act of distributing shields.
This is why it's available to every ship. TT is just an amazing version of shield distribution.
There are no tanks in PvP.
This bring up the question, who are the tanks?
Cruisers are not tanks, they are healboats.
I think if the concept of a true tank is not relevant in PvP, then worrying about the ship class that gets heavily focus fired and has the worst shields available having access to something like TT is also not relevant (since it's also available to everyone).
I also think if the other changes I suggested above were first implemented the environment would change enough that Tac Team might not need a reworking.
Those two ensign slots would go back to having zero value.
That's something I'm against.
I agree on the debuffs, that's why I suggest it be reduced to 5s debuff cleanse the same as ST & ET.
That creates a much larger opening for tactical debuffs.
I also think the other changes I suggested above would be sufficient.
EDIT:
Here's another thought.
What if FOMM acted like APB?
In that, APB is both a buff (to your guns) for the duration of the power, as well as a Debuff (on the target).
With TT's debuff cleanse brought down to 5s, we'd go from a situation where there is a 10s window of debuff opportunity (in a 30s time frame) to a 20s window within a 30s time frame.
On top of this, FOMM would go from being a 2 min cooldown power that could be cleared in an instant to a sticky power that could get reapplied within the 30s duration of the power.
I'm sorry, I think I got partly confused with another suggestion that pushed the distribution effect to higher tiers of the skill.
OTOH, it it does still have a very high cost for builds that are all cannons IMO.
I'll agree that the current overall situation is not perfect, but I also think the suggestions I made above are the better place to start.
I think if manual distribution was improved, that I'd be more interested in seeing changes to TTs distribution.
The fact is if you don't want to be incrediblly vulnrable to spike damage in PVE you need tac team on a sheild build. Without it sooner or later they will cut you down with a relativlly normal attack you completly unable to do anything about it.
And thats just for ships like my sci.
For cruisers setup as tanks am it's a non-starter of epic proportions. They tend to attract far more incoming fire than any other ship, especially when setup for it. Without the full range of self heals they have acess to and the benefit of redistribute they can't hope to handle the inbound effectivlly. You could argue in that case that maybe cruisers should get it as some sort of defualt passive but that does nothign about everyone else and spike damage.
I agree however that ta team need the redistribute removd. But i disagree with solutions like doffs. Thats taking away one build limitation and adding another in it's place which defeats the point of the change. he redistribute needs to be freely avalibile to everyone without a build limiting downside. IMHO the correct anwser is to look at sheild healing in general. My passive regen on MACO sheilds on a cruiser cycling EPtS2 along can hold of 5K orth of dps. Proc TSS1 with and Aux battery up and i can hold of 27K DPS for the length of the heal. ES2 + Passive regen is 10.7K hold off, (and can be sustained), and as long as a target is doing less than 29K DPS he EPtS2 heal + passive regen will hold off thenm breaking your sheilds.
Sorry to snip so much just didn't want to go through the whole thing.
You are mostly right about tanks... I know we all just say there are no tanks in pvp... and what most people think as tanking doesn't exist no. However a properly played Cruiser Healboat is basicly a Heal tank. They will have to tank enough dmg to be able to continue providing heals... if they can't tank some fire the other team will simply target them for 10 seconds force there heals and then lay waste to there team.
I know you don't think cannon scorts would pay any price for running 3 new "distro" doffs. However I disagree I sort of think most escorts won't even bother running them... or they will run 1... running 3 of them leaves only 2 boff slots... so the 3 BFI magic free RSP isn't an option... you can't stack 2-3 sub nuke doffs anymore... you could still slot 2 Attack pattern Doffs... but that would fill up your slots. I think bottom line is you would have to make some major decisions... right now there is no real decision to make in a cannon escort... you run 3 Shield Distro Doffs... and 2 of what ever you fancy.
Everyone would still have the option to run a Tac Team 1 in there ensign slot... they would simply have to decide how important the distribution effect is to them... if its not they save 3 doff slots... if its supper important they have to burn 3 doff slots... and people could choose to slot 1 or 2 if they wish as well.
I agree with you on the cleans as well... 5s I think is right... its what tac team used to do... and should do again. IMO
Also I like your thoughts on FOMM... not sure if that might not make it to powerful... I like the idea though... perhaps that change could come with a slightly higher cool down on it... say 3 min instead of 2... but 30 seconds of FOMM debuff to weapon dmg... that is interesting.
Is it not trolltastic.. I mean radical enough?
it doesn't go far enough. 1 second clear, on all 3 team skills
I swear you people are like devs. the only time you listen to me is when I make the special youtube video links or get snippy!
(as far as youtube links. I'll have to find one for some kind of "personal hygiene" product that I haven't used yet. Gimme time I'll find one :-P )
if you don't make a post you could potentially get banned for, your doing it wrong!
I just want you to know I'm archiving this.
And it confirms my suspicion. You guys love seeing how far I can push it before I take a special vacation
Pure comedic gold that post is.
This is the obvious and easy solution. It would fix everything. But I'd actually like to take it one step further:
- Keep the distribute
- Clear debuffs on activation
- Increased +to damage, especially for the higher versions!!!
Today there is no reason to run TT2 or 3, as TT1 does all the usefull stuff.
In addition to clearing debuffs on activation, I think the different versions should:
TT1 - +30% to all damage
TT2 - +30%+30% to all damage
TT3 - +30%+30%+30% to all damage
basically making each step count as one extra tac console. That might make the higher versions more popular? Even if they're competing against other extremely powerful abilities.
No worries, it was pretty long.
That's very true, but I think one part of that is the massive power of SDOs as well as another part (a smaller part) is the poor choices available in Tactical DOFFs.
IMO:
> PWOS are overly specific, and obviously useless for all cannon builds.
> Energy DOFFs either leave too much to chance (cannon doffs) or buff something that does nothing for cannon builds (beam doffs of both types).
> Conn has nice options, but you're limited in that you can only slot 3 total from Conn. So if you're min maxing, you basically pick 1 of them and run with it. Also, only running 1 copy of TT with TT Doffs frees up an Ensign slot an all cannon build can't make use of.
Leaving SDOs as that point.
Yeah, it would definitely need to be tested thoroughly but could be a good direction to make FOMM something to be feared.
The issue with this would mean that Tac Team would be completely useless vs. Attack Pattern Beta - which would continually re-apply its debuff every time you attack the target.
This would mean you'd clear the debuff to have it almost instantly reapplied.
See above.
An example:
3x AP Conn DOFF brings APB CD to 16s.
APB buffs your guns for 10s, marking the target and debuffing their resistance for 5s - which continually reapplies. Effectively allowing for 15s of debuff as long as you keep attacking the target.
This would mean a single Escort with 3x AP Conn DOFFs could keep APB3 with -50% Resistance on a target almost permanently, as long as they continue to attack the target.
The target would only be able to give themselves 1s of respite from this every 15s cycle if TT only cleared debuffs on activation.
It would clear debuffs on it's own for 5sec.
Hell even in terms of self applying it would totally change the sequence that you fire TT off. Do you fire off at the start of a enemy attack? or do you wait?
And this is a bad thing how?
I was responding to the above posters suggesting a 1s only debuff cleanse, or a cleanse on activation (which is 1s, effectively).
Even a full team with 2x TT could not possibly keep you from being constantly debuffed by APB.
I took their suggestions to mean that the debuff cleanse would literally, only last for 1s.
Your suggestion of 4s cleanse, is right around what I think is a good number (I propose 5s, the same as ST and ET but I think we're both saying the same thing on this point).
Out of curiosity, what do you think about the idea I put forward earlier in the thread about changing FOMM to work like APB with a buff to the guns, and mark to the target that could be re-applied?
As opposed to now, where it is a single debuff effect that does not reapply.
i agree with this, on activation basically equals the 1 second clear as far as im concerned. and with how APB works, there sould be an immunity from reapplication from the source the cleared beta, or delta came from for 10 seconds. so if someone uses TT, and THEN you use APB on them, they could not clear it. or change Beta to work the same way FOMM works.
as far as the tac buff goes, i would have it be +15, +30 might be a bit much. TT2 would be 1 extra console for 10 seconds, and TT3 would be a console and a half. thats still a large buff.
separating the distribute and creating a new station skill would be an unprecedented act at this point, thats NEVER been done. console powers sure, but never a station power
Gotcha.
I think it might need balancing later. but I love the initial idea. it would also give it a use in this TT world we have as even a 4 second clear still makes a mockery of the captain skill in question.
no its not
I hear people talk about balance and move and counter move. NONE of that matters to the average players outside the little hardcore PvP bubble that most people in this forum live in. To them all of that is BS because ET and ST are just not as fun to use as TT. Its that simple. TT makes you move faster, makes it so you don't have to click as much (binding is as arcane to the average player as 5th dimensional math is to most of us, and will remain that way regardless of anything that is done about it, please, lets not waste time arguing that point) AND makes you have MORE DAKKA!!! That is FUN and exciting. Makes you want to cheer! ET and ST are heals... yay.
The biggest beneficiaries were probably cruiser pilots, having to use TT as a given is a great help because it lets you have MORE FUN flying your ship instead of using boff slots with yet more heals... yay. Same with an escort, and a sci ship (although sci ships can be more about asymmetrical attack vectors, so they are a bit weird in that regard).
Everyone seems to be forgetting that this imbalance was likely ON PURPOSE as a way to make players have to make less difficult choices so they could have more fun. If the solution isn't to make ET and ST more FUN to use they can be removed altogether. Does anyone think that deep strategic considerations are given any due in the average player's playstyle? Does anyone here really think that devoting more time to acting on things with the exact correct counter would be more fun than immersing into flying your ships? If you want to move and counter move then Eve is probably a better game for you, STO is about flying your ship. I realize the rest of the game may make STO more attractive to some here, and that changing the parts you don't like to be more Eve-like seems like a solution to you. But understand that what you want and the game regular STO players want are different things.
In the past I might've have thought the hardcore pvpers might be on to something that I just wasn't getting , but after the recent shared CD debacle I no longer think so at all. The main argument was that the shared CDs created gaps in defense.... THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT!!! Hardcore pvp is so healer-centric that its clouded people's views on what was a good solution.
You have a good argument, albeit, IMHO, steered somewhat too much towards alleged simple-minded folks just wanting to have fun, and life on easy-street.
From my perspective, shield distribution should always remain low cost, simply because shields are so basic. So, you can't just say "We could start off in a place where it takes 3 purple doffs to get the current level of redistribution," as needing 3 doffs (out of 5), just to keep the current level of distribution going, would so disproportionally tax the current doff-system, that doing so would effectively nullify it. 1 doff? Maybe. But even that's probably asking too much.
As others have argued too, can't really put shield distribution on anything else but ensign, either, as you can't ask escorts to sacrifice important things like BO2/CRF2, or up, just to have decent shield distro.
Were it up to me, I'd be okay with removing shield distribution from TT altogether, and make it an innate ship-abiliy (which it is now too, after a fashion, but too weak). So, just let ppl do it manually, be have the distribution be as good as that of TT.
I would say the average player is not so simple minded as simply not caring about things in the level of detail a lot of people in this thread do. They want to have a fun time flying their ships ad leading their away teams.
I think your proposed solution is the best so far... but I don't see the desperate need to take out Shield Distro from something most players, once they learn how to use, WANT to use it at all times.
The change to shared CDs was far more important I think, especially for PvP. And yet that one got "revoked". That has made me doubt Cryptic even more than before. Finally a step in the right direction! Only to take it back because people complained the current pvp metagame might not include 100% uptime coverage. They SAY they want "interesting choices" but refused to allow for a simple priority and risk level choice.
Here is where your argument falls apart however.
TT's current prowess as a tac debuff cleanser, takes away fun and Takes Away Dakka. You see, it's quite simple really, Simpleton A, shoots Hot Shot A. Simpleton A has absolutely attrocious buff timing and rotation. Simpleton A has Attack Pattern Beta, and FOMM hot heavy and ready to go. He blows his load, all of it, including those two. He swings as hard as he can time and time again onto Hot Shot A. Who just cracks open his emergency power to shields 1, and TT. And then promptly says ''lol'' at the use of APB. Hotshot A knows that TT defeats any and all amounts of incoming Attack pattern beta. There is nothing Simpleton A is going to be able to do to realistically kill Hotshot A now.
Hot Shot A, lets a gap form in his TTs, long enough to get down under 50 percent hull. Then promptly fully bangs out all his shield heals with a max go down fighting bonus. Unlike Simpleton A, however he doesn't have APB on his ship. He has APO. Just for kicks and the chance to pierce TT he blows that too in his counter swing. Hot Shot A, swings as hard as he can, and saves his Beam Overload or HY, for the coming gap in tac team coverage. Simpleton A gets vaped, in one pass.
Simpleton A, rages, calls Hot Shot A an TRIBBLE, A cheater, an exploiter, and alot of other not nice names.
Now for another example.
Simpleton B, has a Tac Excelsior (or Regent now). Now, in pre season 3 environments, this ship was pretty hot and sexy, thanks to APB and FOMM. Infact it was amazing. Great fun for anyone that wanted to fly a cruiser but didn't want to heal. He has 7 beams, and one Dual Beam array. He has APB1, DEM3, and BO3. now thanks to TT's stupid arsed change to clear for 8 seconds, he'll never do enough damage outside of 1v1s to realistically pressure anyone and make them melt. To make this ship work at all in pvp even on a casual level he would have to come to the forum, look at my most recent TacXcelsior build and change his weapons, and his boffs. Just to regain former glory. This is far far more effort than most people want to do. So he quits pvp, and or rages like simpleton A.
You can say "they did it for the rookies!' all you want, but frankly TT, actually Hurts the casual player more than it helps them by removing core and critical tactical debuffs from the field, permenately. It also tremendously increases the dependency of Sub Nucleonic beam to get anything done.
Which means it also forces the Sci Player to have to step his game up beyond just casual play in order for his team to perform well. It forces the casual player to either que in a team or hope his opponents aren't carrying science of their own.
Now do you want me to shoot down your whine that extends got it's shared removed? :P
Tactical debuffs, by themselves, without a means to counter them, are OP very soon (in EVE terms, it would be akin to having only ECM, and removing ECCM). Heck, even subnucleonic beam can be cleared (Science Team; thought it won't rebuff, of course).
Something which can always remove almost everything all the time, hmm, sounds indeed a bit OP too (see, in EVE they do this better; ECCM, while you can have it running permanently, doesn't remove debuffs altogether: it just makes it harder to debuff you).
Hence why I say TT needs to have it's duration of cleanse 1/2ed to 4 seconds.
I know what tac debuffs stacked can do, as pre season 3 that's what we Premade Boys did when we could. It actually wasn't all -that- bad for those of us that rolled up tough with Resilient Shields (I did it looong before it was "cool").
I'm for them keeping the skill as it is. I don't want 2 seperated skills for it as no one in their right mind would honestly take TT on it's own even for a 10 second tac debuff cleanse. It also clutters up the ensign slots which we don't need. It just needs the cleanse 1/2ed.