currently basically every ship type tanks about the same, it just depends on how long they can keep it up. a cruiser can cycle whats available to him indefinitely and survive incredible damage. an escort, well they can tank for a long time, much longer then they should be able to but he cant keep up that invincible wall as long as a cruiser or sci can, and he will run out of healing eventually if you can do ok cruiser damage. this is why a dps cruiser almost always beats an escort in an isolated 1v1, attrition.
Really? I admit I stay away from OPvP and the only place I can met (or rather I could) a player from OPvP zone was Ker'rat so perhaps I was never against very good cruiser captain. But still cruiser could never kill me. The best thing he could do was to force me just move away from his range to replenish my heals. And even that was pretty hard in Patrol Escort (easier when I was in AE).
Heck, when in PE I met a BoP pilot or two that were unable to harm me seriously with alpha cause double EPtS and double TT (with TSS for the small hole in TT coverage) was making me pretty thought nut to crack.
I have not flown VA-level escort in several month as I was not playing STO for most time and staying in cruiser in the rest. But I doubt much changed in those months.
Now, "nerfing" TT would a good thing. Merging shield distro with DOFF system is not the best idea. It would make those DOFFs a "must be" and will replace one problem with another. I think the best idea would be to make the shield distro speed dependant on both TT rank and EPS skill points. It should also affect the manual distribution.
I think it should go into something like this:
- "clean" TT1 - current manual distribution. It should just remove the need for manual distribution, nothing else. Should be sufficient for most PvE, not breaking the game balance for PvP as a "must be" skill.
- "clean" TT2 should be aroun 150% of current manual distribution. Still reachable for all ships including sci and cruisers, giving boost to survivability, but at cost of some damage from CRF 1 or BO2.
- "clean" TT3 should be twice as fast as manual distribution. Available for escorts (and some cruisers with universal lt.cmdr slot). Quite good boost to survivability, but a great cost of damage.
Each point in EPS skill should give a 0,5% boost to the speed distribution peeking at 45% boost at 9pts in EPS skill (15+15+15+10+10+10+5+5+5 = 90pts = 45% faster). It would give those with EPS maxed and TT1 a speed of "clean" TT2 and people who invest into TT3 and fully boost EPS a 250% speed of manual distro. Eng EPS consoles would boost it even further.
One could tweek the numbers for example fully buffed TT3 should ba at current auto-distro speeds, with fully buffed TT1 being also of this and manual distro being 1/4 or something like this. But any way of making the distro speed dependant on build will break the safety booble that escorts are flying in now. And allow for players to actually choose if they want a high survivability or high damage.
And hunsakx - I also want old times back. Times when an escort coming to alpha my DSSV coul quickly end on the wrong side of Gravity Well or Tykens, SNB and phasers. Blowing up like a bubble they were if their attack went wrong and I was able to survive.
I just don't like the idea of using DOFFs to balance powers. Powers should be balanced against each other and DOFFs should be balanced against each other.
The reality, as I see it, is that replaceing TT redistribution with DOFF procs would make those DOFFs as must have as TT currently is. BFI DOFFs are being nerfed for this reason. They are too powerful and you almost have to have them.
If auto-redistribution is removed from TT and manual redistribution is improved, then yes, I can see creating a DOFF that would enhance the rate, but not be totally responsible for it.
I agree with you about boff abilities balancing against each other and doffs doing the same. That's why I think the shield redistribution being tied to TT means it is unbalanced compared to other boff abilities, and not just against the other teams that it shares a direct cd with.
Somebody call me out on this if my math is too simple, ok? While TT is up and all of your shields get redistributed then your opponents have to do 4x the damage to get through to hull. That's the same as getting your resists up to 75%, right? Because in that case they would have to do 4x the damage too, if I have that right. Even though things that grant resists also grant a heal none of them approach quadrupling your SP or taking resists that high, especially not at an ensign level. So I think you either have to nerf TT's numbers or buff other abilities if they are going to be balanced within the set of boff abilities.
BFI is crazy good, that's why I think making shield redistribution cost doffs takes the two things that are currently OP and makes them compete against each other.
I know that BFI is heading for a nerf, but I'm skeptical. Nothing against bort, but I am really suspicious of how numbers get rolled in game. The strings or clusters of procs I see which are unlikely in the extreme make me think that as long as they refuse to walk back things being slottable in 3's we're going to see little improvement from attempted reductions to the magnitude of BFI's heal. Maybe an immunity to re-application, but that hasn't gone real well in the past either.
Originally Posted by skyranger1414
I prefer it where players can freely fly whatever they want.
hah... with the tankiness of escorts, people don't feel justified to fly anything else anymore. This is especially true for PvE, where showing up in anything but an escort means you'll be underperforming. Before, showing up in a sciship or cruiser could be justified by keeping the escorts alive.
People used to be free to fly whatever they wanted, and matter. Now, they're not.
Now, "nerfing" TT would a good thing. Merging shield distro with DOFF system is not the best idea. It would make those DOFFs a "must be" and will replace one problem with another. I think the best idea would be to make the shield distro speed dependant on both TT rank and EPS skill points. It should also affect the manual distribution.
I think it should go into something like this:
- "clean" TT1 - current manual distribution. It should just remove the need for manual distribution, nothing else. Should be sufficient for most PvE, not breaking the game balance for PvP as a "must be" skill.
- "clean" TT2 should be aroun 150% of current manual distribution. Still reachable for all ships including sci and cruisers, giving boost to survivability, but at cost of some damage from CRF 1 or BO2.
- "clean" TT3 should be twice as fast as manual distribution. Available for escorts (and some cruisers with universal lt.cmdr slot). Quite good boost to survivability, but a great cost of damage.
Each point in EPS skill should give a 0,5% boost to the speed distribution peeking at 45% boost at 9pts in EPS skill (15+15+15+10+10+10+5+5+5 = 90pts = 45% faster). It would give those with EPS maxed and TT1 a speed of "clean" TT2 and people who invest into TT3 and fully boost EPS a 250% speed of manual distro. Eng EPS consoles would boost it even further.
One could tweek the numbers for example fully buffed TT3 should ba at current auto-distro speeds, with fully buffed TT1 being also of this and manual distro being 1/4 or something like this. But any way of making the distro speed dependant on build will break the safety booble that escorts are flying in now. And allow for players to actually choose if they want a high survivability or high damage.
I'm really open to the idea that merging the shield redistribution with doffs isn't the best thing. But taking the current level of redistribution and making it accessible only to ships that can run TT3 is going to be seen as a nerf to science vessels and cruisers, and while the EPS element is a good idea it still seems to benefit one class of ship. Every ship has access to the same doffs, so everybody ends up with the same increased cost. I'm not saying my idea is the best solution, just trying to explain my thinking.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I just don't like the idea of using DOFFs to balance powers. Powers should be balanced against each other and DOFFs should be balanced against each other.
The reality, as I see it, is that replaceing TT redistribution with DOFF procs would make those DOFFs as must have as TT currently is. BFI DOFFs are being nerfed for this reason. They are too powerful and you almost have to have them.
I agree with this.
Not to be too repetitive, but I really think reducing the effectiveness of SDOs, reducing TT 10s cleanse and RSP keeping the linked cooldown with EPTS would be a pretty big change overall, and that TT's shield distribution should be left alone until things are re-evaluated after those changes (if they ever happen).
I'm really open to the idea that merging the shield redistribution with doffs isn't the best thing. But taking the current level of redistribution and making it accessible only to ships that can run TT3 is going to be seen as a nerf to science vessels and cruisers
I agree, I think that would create as many issues as it solves.
I think there is merit to decoupling the shield redistribution power from tac team, but not to tying it to a doff. Instead, make it a separate boff power available at ensign. Then make some changes to both powers to make them valuable.
So we'd have two powers:
Tactical Team: tac debuff cleanse, boarding party cleanse, attack pattern buff (which is currently on the Conn Officer doff), and perhaps a crew resistance buff or something like that.
Reinforce Shields: automated shield redistribution, small shield resistance buff, resistance to shield system power drain.
We want more good ensign tactical powers, right? Or even make the latter an engineering or science power (like everything else shield related).
I think there is merit to decoupling the shield redistribution power from tac team, but not to tying it to a doff. Instead, make it a separate boff power available at ensign. Then make some changes to both powers to make them valuable.
So we'd have two powers:
Tactical Team: tac debuff cleanse, boarding party cleanse, attack pattern buff (which is currently on the Conn Officer doff), and perhaps a crew resistance buff or something like that.
Reinforce Shields: automated shield redistribution, small shield resistance buff, resistance to shield system power drain.
We want more good ensign tactical powers, right? Or even make the latter an engineering or science power (like everything else shield related).
"I'm Commander Shepard, and I approve of this idea."
"I'm Commander Shepard, and I approve of this idea."
Ya taking the skill and splitting it into 2 has been suggested before... honesty The guys at cryptic doing any work anymore... seem to say they can't go and add or make major changes to skills....
I think thats where the doff ideas come in.... adding and tweeking doffs seem to be the only thing Cryptic is willing to do to swing balance.
Suggesting something they could Sell in a "Doff Reinforcement Pack Holiday Edition" is something that could end up happening.
Although yes... seeing a second skill created to do the shield spinning job is indeed another good option.
Comments
Really? I admit I stay away from OPvP and the only place I can met (or rather I could) a player from OPvP zone was Ker'rat so perhaps I was never against very good cruiser captain. But still cruiser could never kill me. The best thing he could do was to force me just move away from his range to replenish my heals. And even that was pretty hard in Patrol Escort (easier when I was in AE).
Heck, when in PE I met a BoP pilot or two that were unable to harm me seriously with alpha cause double EPtS and double TT (with TSS for the small hole in TT coverage) was making me pretty thought nut to crack.
I have not flown VA-level escort in several month as I was not playing STO for most time and staying in cruiser in the rest. But I doubt much changed in those months.
Now, "nerfing" TT would a good thing. Merging shield distro with DOFF system is not the best idea. It would make those DOFFs a "must be" and will replace one problem with another. I think the best idea would be to make the shield distro speed dependant on both TT rank and EPS skill points. It should also affect the manual distribution.
I think it should go into something like this:
- "clean" TT1 - current manual distribution. It should just remove the need for manual distribution, nothing else. Should be sufficient for most PvE, not breaking the game balance for PvP as a "must be" skill.
- "clean" TT2 should be aroun 150% of current manual distribution. Still reachable for all ships including sci and cruisers, giving boost to survivability, but at cost of some damage from CRF 1 or BO2.
- "clean" TT3 should be twice as fast as manual distribution. Available for escorts (and some cruisers with universal lt.cmdr slot). Quite good boost to survivability, but a great cost of damage.
Each point in EPS skill should give a 0,5% boost to the speed distribution peeking at 45% boost at 9pts in EPS skill (15+15+15+10+10+10+5+5+5 = 90pts = 45% faster). It would give those with EPS maxed and TT1 a speed of "clean" TT2 and people who invest into TT3 and fully boost EPS a 250% speed of manual distro. Eng EPS consoles would boost it even further.
One could tweek the numbers for example fully buffed TT3 should ba at current auto-distro speeds, with fully buffed TT1 being also of this and manual distro being 1/4 or something like this. But any way of making the distro speed dependant on build will break the safety booble that escorts are flying in now. And allow for players to actually choose if they want a high survivability or high damage.
And hunsakx - I also want old times back. Times when an escort coming to alpha my DSSV coul quickly end on the wrong side of Gravity Well or Tykens, SNB and phasers. Blowing up like a bubble they were if their attack went wrong and I was able to survive.
Sigh.
Somebody call me out on this if my math is too simple, ok? While TT is up and all of your shields get redistributed then your opponents have to do 4x the damage to get through to hull. That's the same as getting your resists up to 75%, right? Because in that case they would have to do 4x the damage too, if I have that right. Even though things that grant resists also grant a heal none of them approach quadrupling your SP or taking resists that high, especially not at an ensign level. So I think you either have to nerf TT's numbers or buff other abilities if they are going to be balanced within the set of boff abilities.
BFI is crazy good, that's why I think making shield redistribution cost doffs takes the two things that are currently OP and makes them compete against each other.
I know that BFI is heading for a nerf, but I'm skeptical. Nothing against bort, but I am really suspicious of how numbers get rolled in game. The strings or clusters of procs I see which are unlikely in the extreme make me think that as long as they refuse to walk back things being slottable in 3's we're going to see little improvement from attempted reductions to the magnitude of BFI's heal. Maybe an immunity to re-application, but that hasn't gone real well in the past either.
This is just quoted for truth.
I'm really open to the idea that merging the shield redistribution with doffs isn't the best thing. But taking the current level of redistribution and making it accessible only to ships that can run TT3 is going to be seen as a nerf to science vessels and cruisers, and while the EPS element is a good idea it still seems to benefit one class of ship. Every ship has access to the same doffs, so everybody ends up with the same increased cost. I'm not saying my idea is the best solution, just trying to explain my thinking.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I agree with this.
Not to be too repetitive, but I really think reducing the effectiveness of SDOs, reducing TT 10s cleanse and RSP keeping the linked cooldown with EPTS would be a pretty big change overall, and that TT's shield distribution should be left alone until things are re-evaluated after those changes (if they ever happen).
I agree, I think that would create as many issues as it solves.
So we'd have two powers:
Tactical Team: tac debuff cleanse, boarding party cleanse, attack pattern buff (which is currently on the Conn Officer doff), and perhaps a crew resistance buff or something like that.
Reinforce Shields: automated shield redistribution, small shield resistance buff, resistance to shield system power drain.
We want more good ensign tactical powers, right? Or even make the latter an engineering or science power (like everything else shield related).
"I'm Commander Shepard, and I approve of this idea."
Ya taking the skill and splitting it into 2 has been suggested before... honesty The guys at cryptic doing any work anymore... seem to say they can't go and add or make major changes to skills....
I think thats where the doff ideas come in.... adding and tweeking doffs seem to be the only thing Cryptic is willing to do to swing balance.
Suggesting something they could Sell in a "Doff Reinforcement Pack Holiday Edition" is something that could end up happening.
Although yes... seeing a second skill created to do the shield spinning job is indeed another good option.