I believe that Human Rights laws take precedence over a games company's chat channels.
I'm pretty sure you waive any inalienable rights and agree to their Terms Of Service, End User License Agreement, etc. whenever you log into their service (a service hosted by a private corporation that has bound you with legally-binding agreements and contracts).
Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want, just not here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
I'm pretty sure you waive any inalienable rights and agree to their Terms Of Service, End User License Agreement, etc. whenever you log into their service (a service hosted by a private corporation that has bound you with legally-binding agreements and contracts).
Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want, just not here.
Folks, the topic has very little to do with freedom of speech and arguing about it will get us nowhere. Please stay on topic.
The topic has to do with the nature of the punishment, the mechanism by which it is applied, and the lack of checks and balances preventing abuse.
I think we can all agree that Cryptic needs to preserve chat as a useful tool, one that is necessary for an MMO.
I like the suggestions having to do with progressive "timeouts", shortening the length of the ban, and excluding certain forms of chat from the ban which do not affect the general population. I reject the idea that all restrictions should be removed, or that Cryptic has to hire an army of moderators to deal with spam and other ToS violations.
I will add another idea. I do not think that players should be able to report other players on a whim.
If a player had to read through a Chat Terms of Service before using chat for the first time, and again if they wish to report another player for violating them, that might be a good deterrent.
This would be similar to the EULA statements that pop up when installing software, where you have to scroll through to the end of the text before the "Accept" button is enabled. In this case, you would have to select a valid reason from a dropdown box before you could finally submit the report.
Would it stop abuse? Does it force people to actually read it? No. But it would probably make it less easy to abuse and more trouble than it's worth to ban people for no good reason.
It would also spell out what are really infractions and what other users should just learn to deal with.
As soon as the report button is clicked, the system should automatically generate a ticket so it can be tracked and referenced by Customer Support. Both the reporting user and the reported user should get the ticket number, but not be able to open it themselves. The ticket would tell CS who submitted the report, and why.
Finally, since the ban process is very automated, perhaps the appeal process should be, too. Why not give every user three "Get Out Of Jail" tokens a month, or something like that? If you've been banned, you get three chances to get the ban lifted immediately. Everytime you use one, another ticket is automatically generated for tracking purposes. After that, you're out of luck till next month or until you open a ticket to get the ban reviewed. If CS finds you were wrongly reported, they restore your "Anti-Ban" tokens and deal with the abuser. Bots and trolls will burn through their tokens in no time and won't be able to appeal.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
"Human Rights laws" don't compel companies to host (and pay for) your "free speech".
Agreed
This is a game not the corner of 5th and Main, the providers are under no obligation legal or otherwise to provide you with freedom of speech here. This is a private space and as such you are required to abide by your host's conditions, if you can not do so you have the freedom to leave. I find it laughable when someone starts talking about humans rights to justify something as stupid as spamming chat with fleet invites.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
If a player had to read through a Chat Terms of Service before using chat for the first time, and again if they wish to report another player for violating them, that might be a good deterrent.
This would be similar to the EULA statements that pop up when installing software, where you have to scroll through to the end of the text before the "Accept" button is enabled. In this case, you would have to select a valid reason from a dropdown box before you could finally submit the report.
I like this; it provides a nice warning to those who would abuse the system that if you do so, Cryptic is watching and actions will be taking against you for abuse. It could also help provide some guidelines; perhaps a small "What is Spam?" type deal. Just for example, is recruitment messages once every 5 minutes in zone chat Spam? These could be writting down in the message if/when Cryptic makes a decision on these types of items.
As soon as the report button is clicked, the system should automatically generate a ticket so it can be tracked and referenced by Customer Support. Both the reporting user and the reported user should get the ticket number, but not be able to open it themselves. The ticket would tell CS who submitted the report, and why.
I like this as well although I feel when the ticket is 'resolved' a note should go to what was decided. For someone who was chat banned for no reason; knowing the person(s) involved (without having to know their handle) had an action taking (specific action doesn't need to be known) can provide faith/transparency to the system.
The downside of my suggestion is that it wouldn't be a quick fix. Assuming PWE decided to implement it, it would take time to set it up.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I'm game for it bluegeek, But keep the damn first Amendment and international rights TRIBBLE out of a video game. Those rights were made so you can speak out Vs government not in a Business's Section. I ban or Delete peoples Comments from the websites I run and host all the time.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
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Maybe them adding Trade and Recruiting Tabs to the default chat channels would help, it would give the recruiters and traders a place to legitimately post their advertisements without disrupting the main chat channel.
If I'm not mistaken, flagging someone for spam already identifies you as the one doing the flagging, not publicly but on the server side of things. Given human nature, any system that can be abused, will be, being required to ratify a TOS statement is unlikely to change that and any system that would require human oversight would mean an increased workload for GMs with all of the problems that would entail.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Folks, the topic has very little to do with freedom of speech and arguing about it will get us nowhere. Please stay on topic.
The topic has to do with the nature of the punishment, the mechanism by which it is applied, and the lack of checks and balances preventing abuse.
I think we can all agree that Cryptic needs to preserve chat as a useful tool, one that is necessary for an MMO.
I like the suggestions having to do with progressive "timeouts", shortening the length of the ban, and excluding certain forms of chat from the ban which do not affect the general population. I reject the idea that all restrictions should be removed, or that Cryptic has to hire an army of moderators to deal with spam and other ToS violations.
I will add another idea. I do not think that players should be able to report other players on a whim.
If a player had to read through a Chat Terms of Service before using chat for the first time, and again if they wish to report another player for violating them, that might be a good deterrent.
This would be similar to the EULA statements that pop up when installing software, where you have to scroll through to the end of the text before the "Accept" button is enabled. In this case, you would have to select a valid reason from a dropdown box before you could finally submit the report.
Would it stop abuse? Does it force people to actually read it? No. But it would probably make it less easy to abuse and more trouble than it's worth to ban people for no good reason.
It would also spell out what are really infractions and what other users should just learn to deal with.
As soon as the report button is clicked, the system should automatically generate a ticket so it can be tracked and referenced by Customer Support. Both the reporting user and the reported user should get the ticket number, but not be able to open it themselves. The ticket would tell CS who submitted the report, and why.
Finally, since the ban process is very automated, perhaps the appeal process should be, too. Why not give every user three "Get Out Of Jail" tokens a month, or something like that? If you've been banned, you get three chances to get the ban lifted immediately. Everytime you use one, another ticket is automatically generated for tracking purposes. After that, you're out of luck till next month or until you open a ticket to get the ban reviewed. If CS finds you were wrongly reported, they restore your "Anti-Ban" tokens and deal with the abuser. Bots and trolls will burn through their tokens in no time and won't be able to appeal.
All you are doing is slapping on an exception rule to a fundamentally flawed system. This system is designed to save Cryptic Money, so they don't have to hire REAL staff. The "undermanned" thing is due to systems like this, and the pinch every penny you can methodology you see in Corporations around the world, not due to lack of money, but an unwillingness to spend the money on the company itself. Because customer service by itself does not make money, so they feel why should they pay money to satisfy the customer? TRIBBLE the customer, just implement the lazy penny pinch system instead.
If they give us a trade or recruitment channel, maybe those channels should have "report as spam" disabled.
Of course you would want to put your item/fleet out there so people could see it. Since you aren't interrupting normal conversation, what would be the point of spam reporting?
If someone is really abusing it, and spamming something 10 times a second, its easy enough to ignore that player.
All you are doing is slapping on an exception rule to a fundamentally flawed system. This system is designed to save Cryptic Money, so they don't have to hire REAL staff. The "undermanned" thing is due to systems like this, and the pinch every penny you can methodology you see in Corporations around the world, not due to lack of money, but an unwillingness to spend the money on the company itself. Because customer service by itself does not make money, so they feel why should they pay money to satisfy the customer? TRIBBLE the customer, just implement the lazy penny pinch system instead.
Again, I contest the notion that the system is fundamentally flawed.
If you go to some other MMOs there are a ton of spammers around. I remember the last time I played Vindictus - people regularly block/ignore the spammers, but they're not really hindered and constantly generate new characters with nonsensical names. Mention a system like this on the Vindictus forum and you'd probably get the entirety of the forum agreeing with it.
The difference is that guilds in Vindictus don't have actual benefits beyond a second Friends List. Here, there's actual progression and fighting for recruitment, leading to abuse of the system.
The problem is not the system, but abuse of the system - which requires coordination amongst a group of conspirators. If these reports were actually flagged and recorded, systematic abusers can be identified and punished.
As for those who get silenced without the coordinated efforts of a group of conspirators - clearly their message was unwelcome there, and the system still works.
Again, I contest the notion that the system is fundamentally flawed.
If you go to some other MMOs there are a ton of spammers around. I remember the last time I played Vindictus - people regularly block/ignore the spammers, but they're not really hindered and constantly generate new characters with nonsensical names. Mention a system like this on the Vindictus forum and you'd probably get the entirety of the forum agreeing with it.
The difference is that guilds in Vindictus don't have actual benefits beyond a second Friends List. Here, there's actual progression and fighting for recruitment, leading to abuse of the system.
The problem is not the system, but abuse of the system - which requires coordination amongst a group of conspirators. If these reports were actually flagged and recorded, systematic abusers can be identified and punished.
As for those who get silenced without the coordinated efforts of a group of conspirators - clearly their message was unwelcome there, and the system still works.
Listen to me now, I don't care if there are spam bots when it means I have a chance of being punished unfairly by players who have the maturity level of 4th graders.
just create a fleet recruitment channel, and an "i have this and you dont" item channel and all will be well in the universe.
as many have said, some see it as spam when you push a recruitment msg more then x times in a given time frame.
some see the "see what i have and you dont" msgs as the same type of spam.
ultimately, if a fleet recruit channel was the only addition, you would not need the "get out of jail free" scernario you propose, which is faulty to begin with.
just sayin...
What others think of as "spam" is irrelevant, they are abusing the report function on things that ARE NOT chat spam. On things that are part of other games, have been part of THIS game, and considered legitimate forms of recruitment, item searching, etc.
Case and Point, you are punishing people for using the system appropriately and things that are not against the rules. If this was a GM manually doing this, that GM would of been declared corrupt, so why wouldn't you call this system corrupt? It promotes corruption.
Keep in mind I was silenced for something that was NOT spam, wasn't even recruitment or advertising anything except an official game event, and was only said ONE TIME. The argument that it isn't being abused is absurd.
Listen to me now, I don't care if there are spam bots when it means I have a chance of being punished unfairly by players who have the maturity level of 4th graders.
You know, I thought you were targeted by a group of morons, but I just went back and looked at the line that got you silenced. It wasn't even an abuse of the system. People online saw you apparently advertise, and so reported you. Given my own antipathy to Raptr/XFire and its ilk, I find I don't care about you being silenced if it means spam bots are effectively neutered.
Regardless, the feature wasn't abused, it was just a false-positive because sufficient amounts of people thought it was advertising. It's still better than the situation in many other MMOs.
You know, I thought you were targeted by a group of morons, but I just went back and looked at the line that got you silenced. It wasn't even an abuse of the system. People online saw you apparently advertise, and so reported you. Given my own antipathy to Raptr/XFire and its ilk, I find I don't care about you being silenced if it means spam bots are effectively neutered.
Regardless, the feature wasn't abused, it was just a false-positive because sufficient amounts of people thought it was advertising. It's still better than the situation in many other MMOs.
False positive!? Yeah, no, I was FALSELY punished for something I DID NOT DO, I was not FALSELY POSITIVELY PUNISHED. PERIOD. There is NO EXCUSE for what happened to me. This isn't an anti virus program, we are talking about REAL people here REAL, NOT FAKE.
Wasn't abused? It WAS abused, and IS being abused. How many posts you see in this thread alone about people being silenced the FIRST time they post something in zone chat? IT IS Being abused. Don't play this nonsense that it is not, because it IS. How you all are excusing players being punished by other players, disgusts me.
You don't care I got silenced by abusive players because of bots? Well wait until you get silenced for 24 hours for trying to help the community, see how much you like it, and see how much I care when you come to complain about it.
For those talking about a trading channel, there is one that I run, I understand it's not "official" but it's better than nothing if you ask me. Join "Market and Trades" if you're interested. About 60 members in it thus far but we're growing.
As for a fleet recruitment channel, I could probably whip one up but I doubt I'm the first one to think of it. Look around, ask around first, and if it doesn't already exist, why not start it?
For those talking about a trading channel, there is one that I run, I understand it's not "official" but it's better than nothing if you ask me. Join "Market and Trades" if you're interested. About 60 members in it thus far but we're growing.
As for a fleet recruitment channel, I could probably whip one up but I doubt I'm the first one to think of it. Look around, ask around first, and if it doesn't already exist, why not start it?
What this game needs is to make zone chat public only to level 50 silver members, and unrestricted to gold and lifetime members and to remove this joke of a system that has punished so many innocent people.
False positive!? Yeah, no, I was FALSELY punished for something I DID NOT DO, I was not FALSELY POSITIVELY PUNISHED. PERIOD. There is NO EXCUSE for what happened to me. This isn't an anti virus program, we are talking about REAL people here REAL, NOT FAKE.
Wasn't abused? It WAS abused, and IS being abused. How many posts you see in this thread alone about people being silenced the FIRST time they post something in zone chat? IT IS Being abused. Don't play this nonsense that it is not, because it IS. How you all are excusing players being punished by other players, disgusts me.
You don't care I got silenced by abusive players because of bots? Well wait until you get silenced for 24 hours for trying to help the community, see how much you like it, and see how much I care when you come to complain about it.
The system is designed so that the community can identify and silence spammers, advertisements, and otherwise unwelcome messages. Abuse occurs when a small group colludes to silence specific people for personal reasons.
Lots of those complaining about being silenced after "one message" happen to be selling/buying or recruiting. Enough members of the community in the channel they were doing it in identified it as unwanted spam or advertising, and they were silenced. That's not an abuse of the system. The system relies on sufficient members of the community identifying and reporting spam, advertising, and otherwise unwelcome messages.
The community identified your message as spam, and you were silenced.
Appearance matters. When you're shipping analog clocks to a store before they open, leaving an unmarked ticking paper&string package outside will cause people to treat it as a bomb and react appropriately. You're doing the equivalent of complaining after the police detonated the package and ruined your shipment of merchandise.
Your message looked almost exactly like a spammy advertisement - so people reacted as such. If I randomly go into a channel and my only message is "Hey guys, super awesome: <LINK>" I'm pretty sure I'd be silenced in seconds, too.
The system is designed so that the community can identify and silence spammers, advertisements, and otherwise unwelcome messages. Abuse occurs when a small group colludes to silence specific people for personal reasons.
Wrong, this system is being abused, there were no rules violated when I was silenced. Punishment came because players are abusing the function. Do you understand the term abuse doesn't only come from intentional use, but also misguided or emotional use. No rule was violated, I am a part of the frelling community, I was punished BY the community for not violating a rule Where is the LOGIC in that? How can you even defend what was done to me and others?
Just because you THINK something is spam, doesn't make it so, and doesn't mean you should punish someone based on what you feel. This is why only qualified people are in charge of administering punishments in MOST MMOs, whereas, this broken system is allowing 13 year olds to mute long term players for no just reason and without any due process for review. Just get reported, and bam silenced, no review, nothing, you are already punished, so the damage has already been done.
Either way, you are saying it is never abused? You are wrong, there are many cases of people being silenced by other peoples fleets and buddies simply because they do not like them. I was silenced for 24 hours, that 24 hours I had to wait out the whole thing, based on following the rules of the game, but not by the rules of the emotional instability of zone chat regulars. So don't give me that "Oh yeah it is being used properly" BS.
It's amazing how one poorly thought out zone chat post can lead to such entertaining rage threads.
I tried to offer a logical reason. I tried to tell you to relax. But ultimately I'm glad you didn't because it's hilarious how this whole thread has escalated.
What this game needs is to make zone chat public only to level 50 silver members, and unrestricted to gold and lifetime members and to remove this joke of a system that has punished so many innocent people.
Nice idea but for the fact that being level 50 would not insure that a person acts any better then a level 22 player.
Some gold and lifetime players are also going to be a problem. Human nature does not end because of the amount of money spent.
Nobody likes recruitment spam. It's arguably worse than random fleet invites because instead of one person, you're annoying large swaths of people with it.
That said, it's rather stupid that they jumped on you like that after only one message. I only spam report the idiots that repeat it more than five times in ten minutes.
I would rather get a personal invite like a /tell. However I find a recruitment message, done at most once every five minutes far better then random invites.
Not just for the popup. The fact that sometimes they come up at the worst times. You go to do a deep space or borg. You get a group invite and as you go to click it a Fleet invite pops up and you wind up clicking it instead.
Mewi would you prefer unfiltered, unhindered "zone chat" over a system that is actually working as intended, selfpolicing, muting what others consider spam or unwelcome chat..
Have you ever seen a game that had no chat filters or option to block, mute, ignore, it is not a pretty sight and people will actually leave such games because of it.
I have yet to see another game last as long as STO without being almost over run with spam bots putting links and what not in chat no one wants to read, if you have not experienced it ask around its MUCH more annoying then an occasional 24 hour mute.
More Often then not Game companies are forced to implement some system like this to ensure customers stay with the game. If they did not EVERYONE would have chatblock in any Zone or Global chat 24/7 because of automated spambots filling the chat faster then most people can read.
+ Since people are not perfect why would an antispam system be?
I would imagine it is not easy being a developer when faced with this "Community List of Demands" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KLyBapfTc every day, all day, (offended by bad language dont watch..)
Nice idea but for the fact that being level 50 would not insure that a person acts any better then a level 22 player.
Some gold and lifetime players are also going to be a problem. Human nature does not end because of the amount of money spent.
Just thoughts
No? A bot store isn't going to be paying for gold member subscriptions because that would not be a profitable motive. When it comes to gold members There is a person behind the computer, so if that person gets silenced or banned for violating the rules, then that person feels the punishment, whereas a silver member bot wouldn't, it would just create the next account and continue spamming.
Adding a high level cap on zone chat rights, would probably deter and reduce most bot spam. Actual player related violations should be handled by actual moderators.
Mewi would you prefer unfiltered, unhindered "zone chat" over a system that is actually working as intended, selfpolicing, muting what others consider spam or unwelcome chat..
Have you ever seen a game that had no chat filters or option to block, mute, ignore, it is not a pretty sight and people will actually leave such games because of it.
Uh don't put words on my person in which I never spoke. I never once advocated that there would be no filters or no punishment for those that violated the rules.
Let me ask you, if it was working as "intended" then how are so many people getting reported for "Spam" then silenced for "Spam" for 1 message on zone chat, which wasnt against any rule?
Fleets targetting individuals they don't like and getting them silenced for 24 hours, is intended?
Buddies targetting individuals they don't like and getting them silenced for 24 hours, is intended?
So if it was working as intended, why are there so many complaints?
It's amazing how one poorly thought out zone chat post can lead to such entertaining rage threads.
I tried to offer a logical reason. I tried to tell you to relax. But ultimately I'm glad you didn't because it's hilarious how this whole thread has escalated.
Carry on.
I consider that post spam, you should be silenced for 24 hours.
It's amazing how one poorly thought out zone chat post can lead to such entertaining rage threads.
I tried to offer a logical reason. I tried to tell you to relax. But ultimately I'm glad you didn't because it's hilarious how this whole thread has escalated.
Carry on.
Glad you're enjoying this, personally I think this incessant raging is unsightly, it's a temporary chat ban, not a death sentence and if your inability to post in chat for 24 hours is of such paramount importance you have issues to deal with of far greater importance than anything within the scope of this game.
No? A bot store isn't going to be paying for gold member subscriptions because that would not be a profitable motive. When it comes to gold members There is a person behind the computer, so if that person gets silenced or banned for violating the rules, then that person feels the punishment, whereas a silver member bot wouldn't, it would just create the next account and continue spamming.
That is wishful thinking, a bot store has money to burn from all of the people swindled by them, a gold subscription would be pocket change in comparison. Placing a limit on chat for silver accounts would not guarantee a denial of access to gold vendors and would be punishing far more innocent people than has ever occurred with the current system and for no good reason.
The current chat system isn't perfect, but then such a thing does not exist, people who feel that they have been wrongfully silenced have an appeal process available but even without that, it's not the end of the freaking world.
Given the tenor of some of the posts in this thread I can honestly say I wish we had options similar to the game available here.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Comments
Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want, just not here.
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
I just want to point this out:
Definition of "inalienable" =
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inalienable
An inalienable right cannot be waived, given, limited, or removed in any way.
The topic has to do with the nature of the punishment, the mechanism by which it is applied, and the lack of checks and balances preventing abuse.
I think we can all agree that Cryptic needs to preserve chat as a useful tool, one that is necessary for an MMO.
I like the suggestions having to do with progressive "timeouts", shortening the length of the ban, and excluding certain forms of chat from the ban which do not affect the general population. I reject the idea that all restrictions should be removed, or that Cryptic has to hire an army of moderators to deal with spam and other ToS violations.
I will add another idea. I do not think that players should be able to report other players on a whim.
If a player had to read through a Chat Terms of Service before using chat for the first time, and again if they wish to report another player for violating them, that might be a good deterrent.
This would be similar to the EULA statements that pop up when installing software, where you have to scroll through to the end of the text before the "Accept" button is enabled. In this case, you would have to select a valid reason from a dropdown box before you could finally submit the report.
Would it stop abuse? Does it force people to actually read it? No. But it would probably make it less easy to abuse and more trouble than it's worth to ban people for no good reason.
It would also spell out what are really infractions and what other users should just learn to deal with.
As soon as the report button is clicked, the system should automatically generate a ticket so it can be tracked and referenced by Customer Support. Both the reporting user and the reported user should get the ticket number, but not be able to open it themselves. The ticket would tell CS who submitted the report, and why.
Finally, since the ban process is very automated, perhaps the appeal process should be, too. Why not give every user three "Get Out Of Jail" tokens a month, or something like that? If you've been banned, you get three chances to get the ban lifted immediately. Everytime you use one, another ticket is automatically generated for tracking purposes. After that, you're out of luck till next month or until you open a ticket to get the ban reviewed. If CS finds you were wrongly reported, they restore your "Anti-Ban" tokens and deal with the abuser. Bots and trolls will burn through their tokens in no time and won't be able to appeal.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This is a game not the corner of 5th and Main, the providers are under no obligation legal or otherwise to provide you with freedom of speech here. This is a private space and as such you are required to abide by your host's conditions, if you can not do so you have the freedom to leave. I find it laughable when someone starts talking about humans rights to justify something as stupid as spamming chat with fleet invites.
I like this as well although I feel when the ticket is 'resolved' a note should go to what was decided. For someone who was chat banned for no reason; knowing the person(s) involved (without having to know their handle) had an action taking (specific action doesn't need to be known) can provide faith/transparency to the system.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
Proud Listener of Subspace-Radio.net The Voice of Star Trek Online.
[SIGPIC]http://massivechaos.enjin.com/[/SIGPIC]
If I'm not mistaken, flagging someone for spam already identifies you as the one doing the flagging, not publicly but on the server side of things. Given human nature, any system that can be abused, will be, being required to ratify a TOS statement is unlikely to change that and any system that would require human oversight would mean an increased workload for GMs with all of the problems that would entail.
All you are doing is slapping on an exception rule to a fundamentally flawed system. This system is designed to save Cryptic Money, so they don't have to hire REAL staff. The "undermanned" thing is due to systems like this, and the pinch every penny you can methodology you see in Corporations around the world, not due to lack of money, but an unwillingness to spend the money on the company itself. Because customer service by itself does not make money, so they feel why should they pay money to satisfy the customer? TRIBBLE the customer, just implement the lazy penny pinch system instead.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Of course you would want to put your item/fleet out there so people could see it. Since you aren't interrupting normal conversation, what would be the point of spam reporting?
If someone is really abusing it, and spamming something 10 times a second, its easy enough to ignore that player.
Again, I contest the notion that the system is fundamentally flawed.
If you go to some other MMOs there are a ton of spammers around. I remember the last time I played Vindictus - people regularly block/ignore the spammers, but they're not really hindered and constantly generate new characters with nonsensical names. Mention a system like this on the Vindictus forum and you'd probably get the entirety of the forum agreeing with it.
The difference is that guilds in Vindictus don't have actual benefits beyond a second Friends List. Here, there's actual progression and fighting for recruitment, leading to abuse of the system.
The problem is not the system, but abuse of the system - which requires coordination amongst a group of conspirators. If these reports were actually flagged and recorded, systematic abusers can be identified and punished.
As for those who get silenced without the coordinated efforts of a group of conspirators - clearly their message was unwelcome there, and the system still works.
Listen to me now, I don't care if there are spam bots when it means I have a chance of being punished unfairly by players who have the maturity level of 4th graders.
What others think of as "spam" is irrelevant, they are abusing the report function on things that ARE NOT chat spam. On things that are part of other games, have been part of THIS game, and considered legitimate forms of recruitment, item searching, etc.
Case and Point, you are punishing people for using the system appropriately and things that are not against the rules. If this was a GM manually doing this, that GM would of been declared corrupt, so why wouldn't you call this system corrupt? It promotes corruption.
Keep in mind I was silenced for something that was NOT spam, wasn't even recruitment or advertising anything except an official game event, and was only said ONE TIME. The argument that it isn't being abused is absurd.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
You know, I thought you were targeted by a group of morons, but I just went back and looked at the line that got you silenced. It wasn't even an abuse of the system. People online saw you apparently advertise, and so reported you. Given my own antipathy to Raptr/XFire and its ilk, I find I don't care about you being silenced if it means spam bots are effectively neutered.
Regardless, the feature wasn't abused, it was just a false-positive because sufficient amounts of people thought it was advertising. It's still better than the situation in many other MMOs.
False positive!? Yeah, no, I was FALSELY punished for something I DID NOT DO, I was not FALSELY POSITIVELY PUNISHED. PERIOD. There is NO EXCUSE for what happened to me. This isn't an anti virus program, we are talking about REAL people here REAL, NOT FAKE.
Wasn't abused? It WAS abused, and IS being abused. How many posts you see in this thread alone about people being silenced the FIRST time they post something in zone chat? IT IS Being abused. Don't play this nonsense that it is not, because it IS. How you all are excusing players being punished by other players, disgusts me.
You don't care I got silenced by abusive players because of bots? Well wait until you get silenced for 24 hours for trying to help the community, see how much you like it, and see how much I care when you come to complain about it.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
As for a fleet recruitment channel, I could probably whip one up but I doubt I'm the first one to think of it. Look around, ask around first, and if it doesn't already exist, why not start it?
What this game needs is to make zone chat public only to level 50 silver members, and unrestricted to gold and lifetime members and to remove this joke of a system that has punished so many innocent people.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
The system is designed so that the community can identify and silence spammers, advertisements, and otherwise unwelcome messages. Abuse occurs when a small group colludes to silence specific people for personal reasons.
Lots of those complaining about being silenced after "one message" happen to be selling/buying or recruiting. Enough members of the community in the channel they were doing it in identified it as unwanted spam or advertising, and they were silenced. That's not an abuse of the system. The system relies on sufficient members of the community identifying and reporting spam, advertising, and otherwise unwelcome messages.
The community identified your message as spam, and you were silenced.
Appearance matters. When you're shipping analog clocks to a store before they open, leaving an unmarked ticking paper&string package outside will cause people to treat it as a bomb and react appropriately. You're doing the equivalent of complaining after the police detonated the package and ruined your shipment of merchandise.
Your message looked almost exactly like a spammy advertisement - so people reacted as such. If I randomly go into a channel and my only message is "Hey guys, super awesome: <LINK>" I'm pretty sure I'd be silenced in seconds, too.
Wrong, this system is being abused, there were no rules violated when I was silenced. Punishment came because players are abusing the function. Do you understand the term abuse doesn't only come from intentional use, but also misguided or emotional use. No rule was violated, I am a part of the frelling community, I was punished BY the community for not violating a rule Where is the LOGIC in that? How can you even defend what was done to me and others?
Just because you THINK something is spam, doesn't make it so, and doesn't mean you should punish someone based on what you feel. This is why only qualified people are in charge of administering punishments in MOST MMOs, whereas, this broken system is allowing 13 year olds to mute long term players for no just reason and without any due process for review. Just get reported, and bam silenced, no review, nothing, you are already punished, so the damage has already been done.
Either way, you are saying it is never abused? You are wrong, there are many cases of people being silenced by other peoples fleets and buddies simply because they do not like them. I was silenced for 24 hours, that 24 hours I had to wait out the whole thing, based on following the rules of the game, but not by the rules of the emotional instability of zone chat regulars. So don't give me that "Oh yeah it is being used properly" BS.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I tried to offer a logical reason. I tried to tell you to relax. But ultimately I'm glad you didn't because it's hilarious how this whole thread has escalated.
Carry on.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Nice idea but for the fact that being level 50 would not insure that a person acts any better then a level 22 player.
Some gold and lifetime players are also going to be a problem. Human nature does not end because of the amount of money spent.
Just thoughts
I would rather get a personal invite like a /tell. However I find a recruitment message, done at most once every five minutes far better then random invites.
Not just for the popup. The fact that sometimes they come up at the worst times. You go to do a deep space or borg. You get a group invite and as you go to click it a Fleet invite pops up and you wind up clicking it instead.
Have you ever seen a game that had no chat filters or option to block, mute, ignore, it is not a pretty sight and people will actually leave such games because of it.
I have yet to see another game last as long as STO without being almost over run with spam bots putting links and what not in chat no one wants to read, if you have not experienced it ask around its MUCH more annoying then an occasional 24 hour mute.
More Often then not Game companies are forced to implement some system like this to ensure customers stay with the game. If they did not EVERYONE would have chatblock in any Zone or Global chat 24/7 because of automated spambots filling the chat faster then most people can read.
+ Since people are not perfect why would an antispam system be?
I would imagine it is not easy being a developer when faced with this "Community List of Demands" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KLyBapfTc every day, all day, (offended by bad language dont watch..)
No? A bot store isn't going to be paying for gold member subscriptions because that would not be a profitable motive. When it comes to gold members There is a person behind the computer, so if that person gets silenced or banned for violating the rules, then that person feels the punishment, whereas a silver member bot wouldn't, it would just create the next account and continue spamming.
Adding a high level cap on zone chat rights, would probably deter and reduce most bot spam. Actual player related violations should be handled by actual moderators.
Uh don't put words on my person in which I never spoke. I never once advocated that there would be no filters or no punishment for those that violated the rules.
Let me ask you, if it was working as "intended" then how are so many people getting reported for "Spam" then silenced for "Spam" for 1 message on zone chat, which wasnt against any rule?
Fleets targetting individuals they don't like and getting them silenced for 24 hours, is intended?
Buddies targetting individuals they don't like and getting them silenced for 24 hours, is intended?
So if it was working as intended, why are there so many complaints?
Prove I never read any of your posts in which I responded too.
What are you talking about?
I consider that post spam, you should be silenced for 24 hours.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
That is wishful thinking, a bot store has money to burn from all of the people swindled by them, a gold subscription would be pocket change in comparison. Placing a limit on chat for silver accounts would not guarantee a denial of access to gold vendors and would be punishing far more innocent people than has ever occurred with the current system and for no good reason.
The current chat system isn't perfect, but then such a thing does not exist, people who feel that they have been wrongfully silenced have an appeal process available but even without that, it's not the end of the freaking world.
Given the tenor of some of the posts in this thread I can honestly say I wish we had options similar to the game available here.