I think you assume player malice when you were just shut down by an automated system that looks for URLs in public chat channels.
I doubt it, I've heard many stories of people abusing the spam system. I've been ignored by people I just walk by in ESD, I know for a fact that people are intentionally abusing this system for sake of jackassery.
What probably happened was people didn't click your link. I guarantee a lot of them don't know what Raptr even is (I don't either) and assumed you were spamming some garbage. No sane person is just going to click a random link to see if it's garbage or not, because that's a good way to get a virus. Additionally, very few players actually read the forums, so even fewer people will know what you're talking about. Not to mention, "lets get 500 likes over here " followed by said mystery link sounds an awful lot like attention ***** spam.
In essence, you got silenced because you posted something that looks for all the world like common spam. There was no trolling involved here. Frankly I'd've probably spam reported you for that too if I hadn't already known about that promotion.
How can anyone even justify this nonsense?
If or not that is the case, is irrelevant. Ignorance is no excuse to punish someone that didn't do anything wrong. This is why you do not give moderation power to the regular populous, they can and WILL abuse it.
There is NO EXCUSE for what happened here. Now I have to wait 24 hours for an unmute. "Write a ticket" when the ticket system has been broken for... months? it usually takes 3 business days for any tickets to get responded too anyway... so what is the point?
Write a ticket? Has anyone even tried using the ticket system? You can't select any menu drop down in the required fields.
Holding someone that put you at gun point is one thing. Punishing someone for informing others ONE TIME about an official STO event, is a complete other, they shouldn't have this power. End of story.
Again, what is to stop a troll from creating a bot to auto mute whoever he doesn't like? Do you have any idea how easy that is to do?
I think you assume player malice when you were just shut down by an automated system that looks for URLs in public chat channels.
Are you sure that's what happened?
I think jexamx's explanation is as or more likely. People may have seen a link and made a rash judgement that it was spam.
Which goes back to mewi's point, why should other players have the power to do that?
Personally, I suspect that Cryptic relies pretty heavily on the community to police itself, even though it also potentially opens the door to certain abuses.
Take the very policy that makes me a moderator. I am not an employee of PWE, I am a mere player, but I have the power invested in me to make decisions about whether people are posting according to the rules. I have and will likely in the future make mistakes in exercising that authority. I hope to get better at it with experience.
I don't think they have GM's monitoring chat, at least not on a continual basis. I suppose they could call for volunteers to help moderate that, too.
But the forums have certain controls that limit the potential that I might abuse the system and provide a kind of audit trail that would make it difficult if not impossible for me to hide it if I did.
Does the chat system have the same capabilities? Is there an audit trail?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Write a ticket? Has anyone even tried using the ticket system? You can't select any menu drop down in the required fields.
Are you aware that you can also send an email to CS?
But frankly, even if they chose to correct it, your 24 hours will probably be up before they got around to doing it.
I empathize with you, but I can't help you except to put feedback where it will be seen.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Does the chat system have the same capabilities? Is there an audit trail?
It has no capabilities except to be abused, there is no one to answer for, for abusing it. The abusers aren't punished. The only people who will complain about it, are the victims of it. The abusers go scott free, and it would be too hard to prove whether or not they were abusing it intentionally.
This is, for all intents and purposes a lawless player vs player based discrimination system, that needs to be removed.
Holding someone that put you at gun point is one thing. Punishing someone for informing others ONE TIME about an official STO event, is a complete other, they shouldn't have this power. End of story.
Except after proving it does, suddenly your own point isn't relevant to what you said anymore.
You didn't prove anything, I didn't commit a crime sanctioned by law. I was punished unjustly and by a corrupt and broken system. The argument you are making is, I deserved it, because the untrained civilian inquisition said so?
It has no capabilities except to be abused, there is no one to answer for, for abusing it.
...EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD CAN BE ABUSED. And yes, it would be fair and just to have the abusers face a punishment for doing so, or have the system not be able to be abused.
But reality doesn't always work like that. And you seem to be running in circles here to prove you're right...
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The only argument I'm making is you made a stupid comparison, got called on it, and tried to backtrack by invalidating your own comparison.
Simply because you think something is stupid, doesn't make it as such. In fact I find that comment provocative and offensive.
I didn't invalidate my argument just because your saying so. Where is the burden of proof here? Someone committing an arrest, has to PROVE the crime the one they are arresting committed, where is the burden of proof here? Who is held accountable except the one being punished by a lawless and nameless force?
So answer me, was I punished, by your judgment, justly?
...EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD CAN BE ABUSED. And yes, it would be fair and just to have the abusers face a punishment for doing so, or have the system not be able to be abused.
But reality doesn't always work like that. And you seem to be running in circles here to prove you're right...
So, I was punished appropriately and the system works as it was meant too?
[System] You have been silenced. You may chat again in 22 hours, 47 minutes, and 24 seconds.
No sane person is just going to click a random link to see if it's garbage or not, because that's a good way to get a virus. Additionally, very few players actually read the forums, so even fewer people will know what you're talking about. Not to mention, "lets get 500 likes over here " followed by said mystery link sounds an awful lot like attention ***** spam.
I agree with Jexsamx. Mewi, it is frustrating, but I truly doubt you were silenced out of malice. It sounds like people thought you were spamming (I mean, read what you said again, it does sound like spam.) and blocked you. I didn't know what Raptr was until just recently, and I only learned about it because I frequent these forums. Most people don't. If this had occurred a week or so ago, I would have silenced you too.
It has no capabilities except to be abused, there is no one to answer for, for abusing it. The abusers aren't punished. The only people who will complain about it, are the victims of it. The abusers go scott free, and it would be too hard to prove whether or not they were abusing it intentionally.
This is, for all intents and purposes a lawless player vs player based discrimination system, that needs to be removed.
I am only asking whether there are reasonable alternatives. I doubt Cryptic will remove the existing spam deterrent without replacing it with something else.
Fact, a computer doesn't recognize spam unless a person programs it to recognize it. Even then, it's still horribly inefficient and prone to mistakes like false positives and false negatives. If a computerized system could eliminate all spam, our email would be a lot emptier.
So, people are better at deciding what's spam and what's not, even though they are also prone to error and there's the added possibility for unethical abuse.
So what's the solution?
Let spam go? Open chat is already of dubious value. If there's no mechanism for dealing with it at all, nobody will be able to pick legitimate posts out of the crud.
Automate the system to filter out spam? You're already complaining that won't work. And I'd agree with you.
Hire chat moderators? Maybe, but I doubt they have the resources to do it.
Appoint volunteer chat moderators? Maybe, but how do you stop THEM from abusing the power? More systems on the backend, obviously. Do those systems exist, or will Cryptic have to create them?
Maybe a good first step would be to make chat bans shorter (6 hours?), and to limit them to public chat only. There's no good reason for them to affect fleet or team chat. Nor tells, either, since those can be ignored.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I agree with Jexsamx. Mewi, it is frustrating, but I truly doubt you were silenced out of malice. It sounds like people thought you were spamming (I mean, read what you said again, it does sound like spam.) and blocked you. I didn't know what Raptr was until just recently, and I only learned about it because I frequent these forums. Most people don't. If this had occurred a week or so ago, I would have silenced you too.
Out of Malice and out of Ignorance, what is the difference here? You look at the former with disgust and dismiss the latter?
So again, I ask you defenders of this, was I JUSTLY punished?
"We don't put civilians at risk --or even potentially at risk -- to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose a battle... and sometimes we lose our lives. But if you can't make that choice, you can't wear that uniform."
Cryptic Staff, after reading this thread, notice how many say they'd hit the spam report button out of ignorance, rather then read or investigate what the contents of the post was about. This is a job a moderator should be doing, not children.
I am only asking whether there are reasonable alternatives. I doubt Cryptic will remove the existing spam deterrent without replacing it with something else.
There are reasonable alternatives that do work, to an extent, but in the end bots will replace existing text with new text. This doesn't mean however, we give power to the players. They did not earn, and do not have within themselves the experience to manage moderation.
As a moderator for 10 years, you'll learn that the best way to get things done correctly, is to do it yourself. This is why you train staff, you hire volunteer help to assist with the issues.
This doesn't mean you always get every bot, but it also means players don't get unjustly punished. I have read many stories of people being silenced for no reason. Malice or Ignorance is besides the point, a player should not by ignorance have the power to punish another. A player should not by Malice have the power to punish another.
and for my second Star Trek DS9 Quote of the day
Don't you see? There isn't a test that's been created that a smart man can't find his way around!
You're clearly too angry to post with a level head and clear thoughts. It's not as simple as malice vs. ignorance, but you can't see that because you're incensed at the moment.
As for your question. Your punishment isn't just, no, but everyone who reported you for what looked like a spam link was perfectly justified, as much as they are for reporting anything that looks suspicious. End of story.
I know of no MMO that can afford to hire people to sit around all day and monitor the hundreds of chat channels in the game to possibly silence or ban people for. And I'm only talking about the public channels.
A combination of software algorithms and/or community participation is the only reasonable way to do it, and as anyone who's been on a MMO that only relies on automated systems knows, people will find a way to bypass those. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' or not the people who made the filters are.
You're clearly too angry to post with a level head and clear thoughts. It's not as simple as malice vs. ignorance, but you can't see that because you're incensed at the moment.
As for your question. Your punishment isn't just, no, but everyone who reported you for what looked like a spam link was perfectly justified, as much as they are for reporting anything that looks suspicious. End of story.
You place emotional bias on my person, which is both unfounded and illogical. Furthermore your insulting outburst earlier only proves this is rooting from your own personal projection.
Your second paragraph is counter intuitive, I was unjustly punished, but the people who punished me were justified to do so. Contradiction.
The last sentence of your post insinuates that there is someone with a brain, to review this process and administer punishment, whereas there isn't anyone.
How would anyone investigate the post without doing one of two things:
1. Ask you about it?
2. Click the link?
#1 would be better than reporting you for spam, yes, but it assumes they have reason to believe you're not a spammer.
#2 would be most unwise, unless they already recognized where the link was going to take them.
If you had seen it come up in chat from someone you didn't know, and had no idea what the link was for, what would you have done?
Personally, I would have ignored it completely.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
If I would put a non descript link in zonechat i would expect to get muted, blacklisted or ignored (or whatever other system is in place in any game), I do not see any abuse here only an anti spamsystem working as intended blocking links wether that be because of the link or people blocking you does not matter, links do not belong in zonechat...
If you need to link to an out of game resource PM them...
(Gee thx for the "edit" bluegeek)
I would imagine it is not easy being a developer when faced with this "Community List of Demands" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KLyBapfTc every day, all day, (offended by bad language dont watch..)
How would anyone investigate the post without doing one of two things:
1. Ask you about it?
2. Click the link?
#1 would be better than reporting you for spam, yes, but it assumes they have reason to believe you're not a spammer.
#2 would be most unwise, unless they already recognized where the link was going to take them.
If you had seen it come up in chat from someone you didn't know, and had no idea what the link was for, what would you have done?
Personally, I would have ignored it completely.
I don't promote ignorance on the mass scale that is being promoted here. I do not unjustly use game functions based on little to no information. If I don't know what it is, I wont touch it, if I want to learn what it is further, I will educate myself before proceeding.
A players action on the unknown is unjustified. There is NO ONE except a counter to review this process.
So I ask you, is this logical?
I also find that "reporting" someone for x action is misleading. "Reporting" would suggest that the process is up for review, which it is not. I was punished automatically based on a figure, and not a judgment.
I know of no MMO that can afford to hire people to sit around all day and monitor the hundreds of chat channels in the game to possibly silence or ban people for. And I'm only talking about the public channels.
A combination of software algorithms and/or community participation is the only reasonable way to do it, and as anyone who's been on a MMO that only relies on automated systems knows, people will find a way to bypass those. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' or not the people who made the filters are.
Please name ONE note worthy MMO that is not Star Trek Online, that allows other players to automatically punish players based on a report number that is not reviewed by a moderation entity?
I do not see any abuse here only an anti spamsystem working as intended blocking links wether that be because of the link or people blocking you does not matter, links do not belong in zonechat...
Well, I would debate about links not belonging in zonechat.
What if I'm helping somebody find a particular thread on this very forum? Or sending them to STOWiki?
People post item links in chat all the time. Is that wrong too?
Mewi is right about one thing... there are a lot of players out there who would have the kneejerk reaction to hit the report as spam button just because they don't like spam.
But Mewi, I believe you are wrong to think that everyone who hits that button is a troll, or that players have no right to report spam. Some people are trying to have actual chat conversations and to have their conversation broken up and scrolled off the top by spam is at best annoying. I'm not excusing it, but I understand it.
It would be nice if those reports went to a live PWE employee to deal with when they hit a certain threshold. But they don't, and I doubt it's going to happen.
Like I said before... I think the chat ban could be shortened and I do not believe it needs to be a total ban. Fleet chat, team chat, and tells can be self-policed without resorting to a chat ban.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
But Mewi, I believe you are wrong to think that everyone who hits that button is a troll, or that players have no right to report spam. Some people are trying to have actual chat conversations and to have their conversation broken up and scrolled off the top by spam is at best annoying. I'm not excusing it, but I understand it.
I'll ask you what I asked another player, name one note worthy MMO not by cryptic or PWE that has a player vs player based reporting system that is automated and not reviewed and administers punishment based on a figure?
There is a reason why you don't see this system, because it is provocative and easily abused. Anyone with a proxy can silence anyone for anything.
Other MMO's approach this more logically, I don't understand why STO doesn't.
Don't like what the person is saying? Hit the ignore button, and YOU no longer have to see them, NOT everyone else.
Giving power to one player to be able to completely silence another player is absolute BS. It needs to be removed and reworked entirely.
This isn't about the "personal responsibility" of a player to make the right choice or something. Cryptic pulled a bad move out of it's torn apart wranglers and it needs to be removed, all there is to it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[Unrepentant] Lapo@overlapo: the problem with space STF
is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
Unrepentant: Home of the Rainbow Warrior and the Rainbow Brigade.
I'll ask you what I asked another player, name one note worthy MMO not by cryptic or PWE that has a player vs player based reporting system that is automated and not reviewed based on a figure?
No idea. I don't play any other MMO's currently.
But I've seen totally unmoderated chat before and I believe that's even worse. Heck, what we have right now is not all that far off from unmoderated chat.
Let me turn that back around tho and ask you what MMO has a system that you approve of? How does it work? How many people does it take to run it? How much spam gets through anyhow (i.e. is it effective?)
You seem to be assuming that Cryptic/PWE has the resources to moderate chat with live employees, and that they would have recognized your message as non-spam.
Anyone who's spent any time on these forums knows that Cryptic has been understaffed in the past and that they could probably still be considered light on staffing. Even if they wanted to moderate chat directly, I can't believe it would be cost-effective for them to do it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I say something against popular belief in zone chat, does not violate the rules, but players do not like it, they then consider my comments spam, then use the function as such.
I am then silenced, effectively they silenced the minority for the sake of preserving their comfort level.
How is that any different from any other form of discrimination? How will I prove I was abused? The burden of proof would be on me, and not on them.
In effect, I am guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty. Punishment before the judgment.
A players action on the unknown is unjustified. There is NO ONE except a counter to review this process.
Incorrect; the review process is linked in my signature, and in bluegeek's.
If you're silenced and you feel it was inappropriate, open a ticket, and mention in the subject that you were silenced.
People have been banned for misusing the system. I can't promise you'll get unsilenced before the 24 hours runs out, but they will investigate abuse of the system.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Other MMO's approach this more logically, I don't understand why STO doesn't.
Don't like what the person is saying? Hit the ignore button, and YOU no longer have to see them, NOT everyone else.
Giving power to one player to be able to completely silence another player is absolute BS. It needs to be removed and reworked entirely.
This isn't about the "personal responsibility" of a player to make the right choice or something. Cryptic pulled a bad move out of it's torn apart wranglers and it needs to be removed, all there is to it.
The current system has not always been in place. Cryptic was getting a ton of complaints about spam in chat. This is a result. In a way, the Community did this to itself. Not that it's the best system around or that Cryptic holds no responsibility for how they "solved" the problem or that it shouldn't be changed somehow to be more fair. But real live players asked for a solution and they got one.
So here's my question... IF a player still had partial access to chat... Fleet chat, Team chat, and personal tells... why would they need public chat to play the game?
That's the part I would like to see changed. A total chat ban can easily make team play near impossible, and since that's shooting themselves in the foot I believe Cryptic has an incentive to at least look into modifying how it works.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Incorrect; the review process is linked in my signature, and in bluegeek's.
If you're silenced and you feel it was inappropriate, open a ticket, and mention in the subject that you were silenced.
People have been banned for misusing the system. I can't promise you'll get unsilenced before the 24 hours runs out, but they will investigate abuse of the system.
Get them to fix the ticket system and I will gladly do such. Email is besides the point. The system has been broken for months and should be fixed immediately.
There is no review process, how is there a review process here? I was punished before anyone even reviewed the report ( if they really can which I am skeptical here ). Reviews should happen before the punishment is administered. We are talking literally seconds here after I did the one single comment in zone chat TO HELP people.
Did I mention I was trying to help others get the rewards from this, so they didn't miss it?
They can review the people that reported me? Although I doubt that is ever going to happen, even if it could happen.
The current system has not always been in place. Cryptic was getting a ton of complaints about spam in chat. This is a result. In a way, the Community did this to itself. Not that it's the best system around or that Cryptic holds no responsibility for how they "solved" the problem or that it shouldn't be changed somehow to be more fair. But real live players asked for a solution and they got one.
So here's my question... IF a player still had partial access to chat... Fleet chat, Team chat, and personal tells... why would they need public chat to play the game?
That's the part I would like to see changed. A total chat ban can easily make team play near impossible, and since that's shooting themselves in the foot I believe Cryptic has an incentive to at least look into modifying how it works.
EVERY person who meets the qualifications of "Spam" should be reviewed by a QUALIFIED PERSON before punished. No exceptions, players shouldn't have direct access to administering punishments, and that is what this system grants.
Yes, my 24 hour silence, that is a conspiracy and all in my head.
Not that you were silenced, in that you instantly assume that other players conspire against you. That could be the case, but also points to paranoia. You should simply fill out a ticket if you feel that other players are responsible, though.
Comments
I doubt it, I've heard many stories of people abusing the spam system. I've been ignored by people I just walk by in ESD, I know for a fact that people are intentionally abusing this system for sake of jackassery.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Well, the whole "legally" part makes this tricky due to the kinds of things the arresting person opens themselves up to by doing so, but by and large... it's technically legal (except in my state, but even we have laws pertaining to similar kinds of detention of others), and does happen.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
How can anyone even justify this nonsense?
If or not that is the case, is irrelevant. Ignorance is no excuse to punish someone that didn't do anything wrong. This is why you do not give moderation power to the regular populous, they can and WILL abuse it.
There is NO EXCUSE for what happened here. Now I have to wait 24 hours for an unmute. "Write a ticket" when the ticket system has been broken for... months? it usually takes 3 business days for any tickets to get responded too anyway... so what is the point?
Write a ticket? Has anyone even tried using the ticket system? You can't select any menu drop down in the required fields.
Holding someone that put you at gun point is one thing. Punishing someone for informing others ONE TIME about an official STO event, is a complete other, they shouldn't have this power. End of story.
Again, what is to stop a troll from creating a bot to auto mute whoever he doesn't like? Do you have any idea how easy that is to do?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Are you sure that's what happened?
I think jexamx's explanation is as or more likely. People may have seen a link and made a rash judgement that it was spam.
Which goes back to mewi's point, why should other players have the power to do that?
Personally, I suspect that Cryptic relies pretty heavily on the community to police itself, even though it also potentially opens the door to certain abuses.
Take the very policy that makes me a moderator. I am not an employee of PWE, I am a mere player, but I have the power invested in me to make decisions about whether people are posting according to the rules. I have and will likely in the future make mistakes in exercising that authority. I hope to get better at it with experience.
I don't think they have GM's monitoring chat, at least not on a continual basis. I suppose they could call for volunteers to help moderate that, too.
But the forums have certain controls that limit the potential that I might abuse the system and provide a kind of audit trail that would make it difficult if not impossible for me to hide it if I did.
Does the chat system have the same capabilities? Is there an audit trail?
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Are you aware that you can also send an email to CS?
But frankly, even if they chose to correct it, your 24 hours will probably be up before they got around to doing it.
I empathize with you, but I can't help you except to put feedback where it will be seen.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
It has no capabilities except to be abused, there is no one to answer for, for abusing it. The abusers aren't punished. The only people who will complain about it, are the victims of it. The abusers go scott free, and it would be too hard to prove whether or not they were abusing it intentionally.
This is, for all intents and purposes a lawless player vs player based discrimination system, that needs to be removed.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
You said this directly relating to your scenario.
I showed you that in fact you do see it happen.
Except after proving it does, suddenly your own point isn't relevant to what you said anymore.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
You didn't prove anything, I didn't commit a crime sanctioned by law. I was punished unjustly and by a corrupt and broken system. The argument you are making is, I deserved it, because the untrained civilian inquisition said so?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
But reality doesn't always work like that. And you seem to be running in circles here to prove you're right...
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Simply because you think something is stupid, doesn't make it as such. In fact I find that comment provocative and offensive.
I didn't invalidate my argument just because your saying so. Where is the burden of proof here? Someone committing an arrest, has to PROVE the crime the one they are arresting committed, where is the burden of proof here? Who is held accountable except the one being punished by a lawless and nameless force?
So answer me, was I punished, by your judgment, justly?
So, I was punished appropriately and the system works as it was meant too?
[System] You have been silenced. You may chat again in 22 hours, 47 minutes, and 24 seconds.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I agree with Jexsamx. Mewi, it is frustrating, but I truly doubt you were silenced out of malice. It sounds like people thought you were spamming (I mean, read what you said again, it does sound like spam.) and blocked you. I didn't know what Raptr was until just recently, and I only learned about it because I frequent these forums. Most people don't. If this had occurred a week or so ago, I would have silenced you too.
I am only asking whether there are reasonable alternatives. I doubt Cryptic will remove the existing spam deterrent without replacing it with something else.
Fact, a computer doesn't recognize spam unless a person programs it to recognize it. Even then, it's still horribly inefficient and prone to mistakes like false positives and false negatives. If a computerized system could eliminate all spam, our email would be a lot emptier.
So, people are better at deciding what's spam and what's not, even though they are also prone to error and there's the added possibility for unethical abuse.
So what's the solution?
Let spam go? Open chat is already of dubious value. If there's no mechanism for dealing with it at all, nobody will be able to pick legitimate posts out of the crud.
Automate the system to filter out spam? You're already complaining that won't work. And I'd agree with you.
Hire chat moderators? Maybe, but I doubt they have the resources to do it.
Appoint volunteer chat moderators? Maybe, but how do you stop THEM from abusing the power? More systems on the backend, obviously. Do those systems exist, or will Cryptic have to create them?
Maybe a good first step would be to make chat bans shorter (6 hours?), and to limit them to public chat only. There's no good reason for them to affect fleet or team chat. Nor tells, either, since those can be ignored.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Out of Malice and out of Ignorance, what is the difference here? You look at the former with disgust and dismiss the latter?
So again, I ask you defenders of this, was I JUSTLY punished?
"We don't put civilians at risk --or even potentially at risk -- to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose a battle... and sometimes we lose our lives. But if you can't make that choice, you can't wear that uniform."
Cryptic Staff, after reading this thread, notice how many say they'd hit the spam report button out of ignorance, rather then read or investigate what the contents of the post was about. This is a job a moderator should be doing, not children.
There are reasonable alternatives that do work, to an extent, but in the end bots will replace existing text with new text. This doesn't mean however, we give power to the players. They did not earn, and do not have within themselves the experience to manage moderation.
As a moderator for 10 years, you'll learn that the best way to get things done correctly, is to do it yourself. This is why you train staff, you hire volunteer help to assist with the issues.
This doesn't mean you always get every bot, but it also means players don't get unjustly punished. I have read many stories of people being silenced for no reason. Malice or Ignorance is besides the point, a player should not by ignorance have the power to punish another. A player should not by Malice have the power to punish another.
and for my second Star Trek DS9 Quote of the day
Don't you see? There isn't a test that's been created that a smart man can't find his way around!
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
As for your question. Your punishment isn't just, no, but everyone who reported you for what looked like a spam link was perfectly justified, as much as they are for reporting anything that looks suspicious. End of story.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
A combination of software algorithms and/or community participation is the only reasonable way to do it, and as anyone who's been on a MMO that only relies on automated systems knows, people will find a way to bypass those. It doesn't matter how 'lazy' or not the people who made the filters are.
You place emotional bias on my person, which is both unfounded and illogical. Furthermore your insulting outburst earlier only proves this is rooting from your own personal projection.
Your second paragraph is counter intuitive, I was unjustly punished, but the people who punished me were justified to do so. Contradiction.
The last sentence of your post insinuates that there is someone with a brain, to review this process and administer punishment, whereas there isn't anyone.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
How would anyone investigate the post without doing one of two things:
1. Ask you about it?
2. Click the link?
#1 would be better than reporting you for spam, yes, but it assumes they have reason to believe you're not a spammer.
#2 would be most unwise, unless they already recognized where the link was going to take them.
If you had seen it come up in chat from someone you didn't know, and had no idea what the link was for, what would you have done?
Personally, I would have ignored it completely.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
If I would put a non descript link in zonechat i would expect to get muted, blacklisted or ignored (or whatever other system is in place in any game), I do not see any abuse here only an anti spamsystem working as intended blocking links wether that be because of the link or people blocking you does not matter, links do not belong in zonechat...
If you need to link to an out of game resource PM them...
(Gee thx for the "edit" bluegeek)
I would imagine it is not easy being a developer when faced with this "Community List of Demands" --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2KLyBapfTc every day, all day, (offended by bad language dont watch..)
I don't promote ignorance on the mass scale that is being promoted here. I do not unjustly use game functions based on little to no information. If I don't know what it is, I wont touch it, if I want to learn what it is further, I will educate myself before proceeding.
A players action on the unknown is unjustified. There is NO ONE except a counter to review this process.
So I ask you, is this logical?
I also find that "reporting" someone for x action is misleading. "Reporting" would suggest that the process is up for review, which it is not. I was punished automatically based on a figure, and not a judgment.
Please name ONE note worthy MMO that is not Star Trek Online, that allows other players to automatically punish players based on a report number that is not reviewed by a moderation entity?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
Well, I would debate about links not belonging in zonechat.
What if I'm helping somebody find a particular thread on this very forum? Or sending them to STOWiki?
People post item links in chat all the time. Is that wrong too?
Mewi is right about one thing... there are a lot of players out there who would have the kneejerk reaction to hit the report as spam button just because they don't like spam.
But Mewi, I believe you are wrong to think that everyone who hits that button is a troll, or that players have no right to report spam. Some people are trying to have actual chat conversations and to have their conversation broken up and scrolled off the top by spam is at best annoying. I'm not excusing it, but I understand it.
It would be nice if those reports went to a live PWE employee to deal with when they hit a certain threshold. But they don't, and I doubt it's going to happen.
Like I said before... I think the chat ban could be shortened and I do not believe it needs to be a total ban. Fleet chat, team chat, and tells can be self-policed without resorting to a chat ban.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Yes, my 24 hour silence, that is a conspiracy and all in my head.
I'll ask you what I asked another player, name one note worthy MMO not by cryptic or PWE that has a player vs player based reporting system that is automated and not reviewed and administers punishment based on a figure?
There is a reason why you don't see this system, because it is provocative and easily abused. Anyone with a proxy can silence anyone for anything.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Don't like what the person is saying? Hit the ignore button, and YOU no longer have to see them, NOT everyone else.
Giving power to one player to be able to completely silence another player is absolute BS. It needs to be removed and reworked entirely.
This isn't about the "personal responsibility" of a player to make the right choice or something. Cryptic pulled a bad move out of it's torn apart wranglers and it needs to be removed, all there is to it.
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is that you can't properly teabag your defeated opponent
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No idea. I don't play any other MMO's currently.
But I've seen totally unmoderated chat before and I believe that's even worse. Heck, what we have right now is not all that far off from unmoderated chat.
Let me turn that back around tho and ask you what MMO has a system that you approve of? How does it work? How many people does it take to run it? How much spam gets through anyhow (i.e. is it effective?)
You seem to be assuming that Cryptic/PWE has the resources to moderate chat with live employees, and that they would have recognized your message as non-spam.
Anyone who's spent any time on these forums knows that Cryptic has been understaffed in the past and that they could probably still be considered light on staffing. Even if they wanted to moderate chat directly, I can't believe it would be cost-effective for them to do it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I say something against popular belief in zone chat, does not violate the rules, but players do not like it, they then consider my comments spam, then use the function as such.
I am then silenced, effectively they silenced the minority for the sake of preserving their comfort level.
How is that any different from any other form of discrimination? How will I prove I was abused? The burden of proof would be on me, and not on them.
In effect, I am guilty until proven innocent, rather than innocent until proven guilty. Punishment before the judgment.
This system is flawed in every single way.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Incorrect; the review process is linked in my signature, and in bluegeek's.
If you're silenced and you feel it was inappropriate, open a ticket, and mention in the subject that you were silenced.
People have been banned for misusing the system. I can't promise you'll get unsilenced before the 24 hours runs out, but they will investigate abuse of the system.
The current system has not always been in place. Cryptic was getting a ton of complaints about spam in chat. This is a result. In a way, the Community did this to itself. Not that it's the best system around or that Cryptic holds no responsibility for how they "solved" the problem or that it shouldn't be changed somehow to be more fair. But real live players asked for a solution and they got one.
So here's my question... IF a player still had partial access to chat... Fleet chat, Team chat, and personal tells... why would they need public chat to play the game?
That's the part I would like to see changed. A total chat ban can easily make team play near impossible, and since that's shooting themselves in the foot I believe Cryptic has an incentive to at least look into modifying how it works.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Get them to fix the ticket system and I will gladly do such. Email is besides the point. The system has been broken for months and should be fixed immediately.
There is no review process, how is there a review process here? I was punished before anyone even reviewed the report ( if they really can which I am skeptical here ). Reviews should happen before the punishment is administered. We are talking literally seconds here after I did the one single comment in zone chat TO HELP people.
Did I mention I was trying to help others get the rewards from this, so they didn't miss it?
They can review the people that reported me? Although I doubt that is ever going to happen, even if it could happen.
No good deed, goes unpunished.
EVERY person who meets the qualifications of "Spam" should be reviewed by a QUALIFIED PERSON before punished. No exceptions, players shouldn't have direct access to administering punishments, and that is what this system grants.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.