Exactly. It should be a cruiser. It can be science based, sure, but a cruiser it should be.
Ditto, that's why I was glad they considered the UNI slot. The Nebula is a multi-role ship and that adds to the flexibility.
On the other hand, I do agree that these new ships are stepping outside of the promise that C-Store content would not give anyone advantage.
Here is the rule: Jack of all trades, master of none. The Sovereign should be the "master" of tactical. However, I support an increase of Boff power to the Sovereign rather than a nerf of the, unreleased, Nebula.
While I am at it, I add my vote to PLEASE also make a lower-tiered version like the excelsior. Maybe T4 or very much so T3 so that we SCI people don't have to fly the ugly Golf balls
Ditto, that's why I was glad they considered the UNI slot. The Nebula is a multi-role ship and that adds to the flexibility.
On the other hand, I do agree that these new ships are stepping outside of the promise that C-Store content would not give anyone advantage.
Here is the rule: Jack of all trades, master of none. The Sovereign should be the "master" of tactical. However, I support an increase of Boff power to the Sovereign rather than a nerf of the, unreleased, Nebula.
While I am at it, I add my vote to PLEASE also make a lower-tiered version like the excelsior. Maybe T4 but very much so PLEASE T3 so that we SCI people don't have to fly the ugly Golf balls
Indeed. The DSSV consoles and officer slots look good, favouring Science over Engineering, (so you can still have Commander Science) but the ship itself should still be, in my opinion, a cruiser.
Indeed. The DSSV consoles and officer slots look good, favouring Science over Engineering, (so you can still have Commander Science) but the ship itself should still be, in my opinion, a cruiser.
Being that it is a cruiser and not a scout ship like the BOP is....there should be no universal, but instead be released in 2 options with the engineering and science stations being the different options.
Being that it is a cruiser and not a scout ship like the BOP is....there should be no universal, but instead be released in 2 options with the engineering and science stations being the different options.
OK?
I'm not too fussed about a universal slot, but I know a lot of people are including the majority of posters in this thread.
I was trying to get the point across more that I would like to see a Science based Nebula but classified as a cruiser, thats all.
I'm not too fussed about a universal slot, but I know a lot of people are including the majority of posters in this thread.
I was trying to get the point across more that I would like to see a Science based Nebula but classified as a cruiser, thats all.
I was saying it should be more science or engineer based since it is a cruiser...but then again its science ability to detect cloaked ships does make it more science so there I'd have to side with you...allowing for an extra tac officer spot makes it that much more of a threat to Sovereign captains playing fed vs fed pvp.
Seriously, this is the only ship I've wanted to play, since I first heard about STO a decade ago. If I have to pay IRL money to get it, or do some BS badge grinding, I'm never playing STO again.
well see ya later ............i actually see them making two variants of these one eng one sci both of which ill buy with gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............................ahem!!!!!! ok now about that ambassador class
well see ya later ............i actually see them making two variants of these one eng one sci both of which ill buy with gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............................ahem!!!!!! ok now about that ambassador class
That'll wait until the Klingon T5 refits are completed and in-game for KDF.......
Also remember C-Store items (which this ship is) can't be tested. At all. So they go directly live.
As frustrating as this style of feedback process may be, it's all they have.
Why?
Shouldn't they be able to make them available on tribble for testing? isn't the point of a test server to be able to do things you cant do on production just to see if it breaks anything?
Long explanation given to us by ... dscotty? ... ages ago ... was it had a lot to do with how the c-store mechanics work behind the scenes.
My memory on this is vague. And someone could probably provide a better explanation or even the quote itself.
Shouldn't they be able to make them available on tribble for testing? isn't the point of a test server to be able to do things you cant do on production just to see if it breaks anything?
I think they should be able to provide it for testing. They did offer the first retrofits with a free token vendor in 2.0. And they had the T3 excelsior up for testing. But some c-store stuff they just send live as is ... and then you get people buying it and bug reporting it. This happens a lot with bridge packs.
Shouldn't they be able to make them available on tribble for testing? isn't the point of a test server to be able to do things you cant do on production just to see if it breaks anything?
If they gave access to C-Store ships before hand then players might test drive them rather than balance test them. Cryptic may not want to offer access because of concern over lost revenue to customers who test drive an upcoming ship and find it's not worth the price tag it will sport.
This just opens up a new line of criticism, in my opinion. The C-Store causes a break in the standard testing procedure by eliminating the most important step in testing . . . OFFERING ACCESS TO THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TESTED.
If they gave access to C-Store ships before hand then players might test drive them rather than balance test them. Cryptic may not want to offer access becasue of concern over lost revenue to customers who test drive an upcoming ship and find it's not worth the price tag it will sport.
This just opens up a new line of criticism, in my opinion. The C-Store causes a break in the standard testing procedure by eliminating the most important step in testing . . . OFFERING ACCESS TO THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TESTED.
Why they are making all the c-store ships OP'd test drive is irrelevant. All you are going to see is spamming of higer tier sci abilities with little in the way of damage repercussions because of the high level eng skills to help heal. Just like how the high level tac skills make the excelsior a very dangerous ship in PvP now poeple have to decide do we go after the deadly tanks first or the squishy glass cannons first. Then with the nerf to RSP the cruisers, especially the Excelsior will be the primary damage dealers in matches. All of this could have been avoided by holding out the BOff layout change until all T5 ships were on equal footing. Right now majority of the cruisers in Pvp are excelsiors and when the nebula hits most of the sci guys will be in Nebulas.
Why they are making all the c-store ships OP'd test drive is irrelevant. All you are going to see is spamming of higer tier sci abilities with little in the way of damage repercussions because of the high level eng skills to help heal. Just like how the high level tac skills make the excelsior a very dangerous ship in PvP now poeple have to decide do we go after the deadly tanks first or the squishy glass cannons first. Then with the nerf to RSP the cruisers, especially the Excelsior will be the primary damage dealers in matches. All of this could have been avoided by holding out the BOff layout change until all T5 ships were on equal footing. Right now majority of the cruisers in Pvp are excelsiors and when the nebula hits most of the sci guys will be in Nebulas.
Like I said before, this thread IS the Nebula's play test.
I was saying it should be more science or engineer based since it is a cruiser...but then again its science ability to detect cloaked ships does make it more science so there I'd have to side with you...allowing for an extra tac officer spot makes it that much more of a threat to Sovereign captains playing fed vs fed pvp.
Right, I get you. Apologies. Yes, I completely agree. Sacrifice a high tactical and gain a high Science makes sense and allows all three endgame cruisers to be different.
I tend to like a lot of what Cryptic does ship-wise... but I really don't like this Nebula concept. Without a directly comparable ship for the Klingon guys... I just don't see how letting the feds stealth detect arguably the entire map as being very beneficial to fair gameplay.
I'm also not a canon fanatic. Still, this to me is a lot like turning what it is to be in the Star Trek universe on its head. Without an equally comparable ship on the Klingon side, you're in essence allowing Feds to be the hard to detect cloakers and it makes Klingons opposite of that. We should not be able to see them with a button click that reveals the whole map.
I'm not a huge fan of the universal station either. It could make for some interesting gameplay options though.
In the end, I think the thing I don't like most is that this is quickly becoming Cruisers Online. I'm a cruiser pilot mostly, but even I know when enough is enough. For me, enough is enough with the Excelsior. Everything we Feds get is cruisers, cruisers, cruisers.
Bacon is good too but I would get tired of it if I ate nothing but bacon every day for a week. Sooner or later I'd want some vienna sausages, beanie weenies or something.
I think the general consensus is that the Cruiser build will work best. The Science Build will not work without modifaction, some possibly more severe. The first thing is that the turn rate is just too low for a science ship. The second is that a second Lt. Tactical slot would be useless for most science ships. You can't use cannons, you got the innate Target Beam Subsystem skills conflicting with the relevant Tactical power cooldowns, and a Science Vessel just doesn't have that many weapon slots to begin with, making boosting that firepower very ineffective. So the Universal slot is only interesting for Science or Engineering powers. If you want to use the full Science template, be prepared for disappointment among the players of the ship and the overall sales.
Another justified concern is - is this power a mix of too specific and too strong? Will it negate advantages of the Klingons (advantages they pay with lower hull and shields, after all), but will they be useless in FvF?
Regarding the concern that players suck at balancing abilities. Yes, they sometimes do. But keep in mind that we are just suggesting stuff and presenting our thoughts - it's not the same as us getting to write the configuration files for the ship and offering them for download. The devs can evaluate the comments and figure out which points have merits and which builds are just a fantasy power trips of the poster in question. And to be honest, so far I usually see pretty reasonable suggestions and rarely people on such power trips. Maybe the fanbase is more mature at least in that regard. Or it's just due to the way the question is presented - We can be reasonably sure that the item will be bought for money, and that Cryptic will eventually nerf overpowered stuff. And no one wants his favorite ubership he payed good C-Store points on nerfed to uselessness. So better start with a mroe reasonable suggestion than the outrageous ones.
I like the tacyon detection grid idea dastahl. It would make sense a ship that small would need the protection of other ships, and the triangle nacelle? reminds me of that triangle ship from the Original series episdoe where the ship trappned the enterprise in a grid.
Seeing how the Devs refuse to see reason regarding the class of this ship, I guess this will be one less C-Store item for me to buy. I had intended on buying all ships in C-Store eventually...but only if they reflect a balance in class distribution. However...it seems Devs are favoring Engineers over Tactical and Science. Now, I undertstand a lot of you might pilot ships that are outside of your character class which is fine, but what about those of use that like to RP? It seems we are left to the wayside. Oh well, congrats to all you Engineers on the next 15 ships that will probably end up in the C-Store for you next.:rolleyes:
Seeing how the Devs refuse to see reason regarding the class of this ship, I guess this will be one less C-Store item for me to buy. I had intended on buying all ships in C-Store eventually...but only if they reflect a balance in class distribution. However...it seems Devs are favoring Engineers over Tactical and Science. Now, I undertstand a lot of you might pilot ships that are outside of your character class which is fine, but what about those of use that like to RP? It seems we are left to the wayside. Oh well, congrats to all you Engineers on the next 15 ships that will probably end up in the C-Store for you next.:rolleyes:
I think the problem is Startrek itself favored cruisers. Or the problem is that the distinction Cryptic makes is not... canon? There are only two ships that fall into the Cryptic categories. The Defiant was classified as an Escort, and the Oberth might be the example of a Science ship. Escort is basically a Federation euphemism for Warship, and Oberth was clearly not capable of holding up in a fight. Currently Science Vessels might seem undergunned, but the Oberth was a lot worse than that.
So, in the end, most ships in Startrek are best qualified as "Cruisers". Some might get the qualifaction "light" (Intrepid?), some might be classified heavy (Galaxy, Sovereign), but that's pretty much it. If more existed, it was not really shown on screen.
This still points the ship toward the intended Cruiser designation with the LC Eng but gives us poor science people an opportunity to use it effectively as well, even if we have to respec our ship skills...
Since this ship was supposedly a very modular ship and primarily a science ship it seemed...
Now, I undertstand a lot of you might pilot ships that are outside of your character class which is fine, but what about those of use that like to RP? It seems we are left to the wayside.
Um...b-but Picard was a scientist...Kirk was a warrior...both flew cruisers...
Um...b-but Picard was a scientist...Kirk was a warrior...both flew cruisers...
While I believe screen evidence largely suggests Kirk would actually be an Engineer instead (the only captain to ever fabricate a deployable on-screen, among other things) this is definitely going down the right track. For another example, Sisko was part of the design team for the Defiant, suggesting an Engineering background himself, and the Defiant isn't just an escort, it's the escort. Captain type != ship role, especially for RP purposes where several of the escorts and science ships have generally been referred to as cruisers in other material.
Honestly this ship is the first federation ship who's stats have made me think anything other than "meh". As originally perposed, it looks like a very good representation of a multi-roll starship, with an ability that's probably not going to matter that much in practice but in theory is awsum (you're not going to spread the detection range all that far if you're still flying in a fed-ball), plus it's not like detecting cloaked ships is hard now it's just dificult to turn the couple of seconds you have before they catch on and drop cloak into a meaningful advantage.
As for the version with the commander universal station, That would make it truly perfect for my intended use of it, but I'm concerned it may make the ship to versitile to the point of out-shining to many of the other classes.
My vote is to keep it as originaly perposed. Though I will probably buy it in either of the forms I discussed above.
I believe you It would make a lot of people happy were you to implement this setup over the cruiser centric one. though I like both the setups myself, maybe the team should seriously consider offering both.
Hell if you wanted to really stretch it out make a tac varient as well and pop all three in the one c-store pack (though seriously, the backlash for not making them obtainable in-game will likely be immense)
Tac idea. Leave the rear weapon turn rate and hull like a cruiser, escort power levels, commander tac slot, etc. The idea is the rear weapon and hull should counter the turn rate relative to other escorts. Ok so I haven't though about it that much but the seed is there at least.
I really believe Cryptic made the right call classifying this ship as a Cruiser. It has way too many cruiser features to be anything else. I like the pod varient idea and the adjusting the stats based on whether it is a Engineering or Science varient, but classifying this ship as just science would be wrong. It's a crusier that can be modified into a science ship, but it's still a crusier none the less.
T1
Science: Oberth
Cruiser: Constitution
Escort: Miranda
T2
Science: Nova
Cruiser: Excelsior
Escort: Sabre
T3
Science: Intrepid
Cruiser: Ambassador
Escort: Defiant
T4
Science: Nebula
Cruiser: Galaxy
Escort: Akira
T5
Science: ?
Cruiser: Sovereign
Escort: ?
Science ships would not be combat ships, and should have had weak shields and hull, and minimal weapons. They would have an inherent sensor jamming ability that would allow them to escape being targeted (allowing them to survive combat). Their role would be purely supportive.
Escorts would be combat ships (I would have termed them "Warships" instead of "Escorts"), but meant for quick attacks. Think of Destroyers from WW2. They would have average weapons, average shields, and weak hulls. They would have better manueverability. They would have an inherent evasion ability that would make them harder to hit. Their role would be to do damage (largely via officer skills and Cannons)
Cruisers would be the sturdy, general use ship. They would have average shields and weaponry, but strong hull. They would be geared toward engineering, and would have a special ability to that end. The advanced Warp Core fits that description, but I might have looked for something a little different.
This shiplist is almost exactly the one i would have used Mojo. Finally someone who has the right idea
As for the T5 escort, im quite happy with the prometheus there. T5 Science, the Luna maybe. Its smaller than the Nebula but more advanced, so might work.
Comments
Ditto, that's why I was glad they considered the UNI slot. The Nebula is a multi-role ship and that adds to the flexibility.
On the other hand, I do agree that these new ships are stepping outside of the promise that C-Store content would not give anyone advantage.
Here is the rule: Jack of all trades, master of none. The Sovereign should be the "master" of tactical. However, I support an increase of Boff power to the Sovereign rather than a nerf of the, unreleased, Nebula.
While I am at it, I add my vote to PLEASE also make a lower-tiered version like the excelsior. Maybe T4 or very much so T3 so that we SCI people don't have to fly the ugly Golf balls
Indeed. The DSSV consoles and officer slots look good, favouring Science over Engineering, (so you can still have Commander Science) but the ship itself should still be, in my opinion, a cruiser.
Being that it is a cruiser and not a scout ship like the BOP is....there should be no universal, but instead be released in 2 options with the engineering and science stations being the different options.
OK?
I'm not too fussed about a universal slot, but I know a lot of people are including the majority of posters in this thread.
I was trying to get the point across more that I would like to see a Science based Nebula but classified as a cruiser, thats all.
I was saying it should be more science or engineer based since it is a cruiser...but then again its science ability to detect cloaked ships does make it more science so there I'd have to side with you...allowing for an extra tac officer spot makes it that much more of a threat to Sovereign captains playing fed vs fed pvp.
well see ya later ............i actually see them making two variants of these one eng one sci both of which ill buy with gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............................ahem!!!!!! ok now about that ambassador class
That'll wait until the Klingon T5 refits are completed and in-game for KDF.......
Last I heard ...
Oh wait ... it's September now! Damn!
September and they get yet ANOTHER ship...Oh wait...we get to wait until 10 October....
Why?
Shouldn't they be able to make them available on tribble for testing? isn't the point of a test server to be able to do things you cant do on production just to see if it breaks anything?
Long explanation given to us by ... dscotty? ... ages ago ... was it had a lot to do with how the c-store mechanics work behind the scenes.
My memory on this is vague. And someone could probably provide a better explanation or even the quote itself.
I think they should be able to provide it for testing. They did offer the first retrofits with a free token vendor in 2.0. And they had the T3 excelsior up for testing. But some c-store stuff they just send live as is ... and then you get people buying it and bug reporting it. This happens a lot with bridge packs.
If they gave access to C-Store ships before hand then players might test drive them rather than balance test them. Cryptic may not want to offer access because of concern over lost revenue to customers who test drive an upcoming ship and find it's not worth the price tag it will sport.
This just opens up a new line of criticism, in my opinion. The C-Store causes a break in the standard testing procedure by eliminating the most important step in testing . . . OFFERING ACCESS TO THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TESTED.
Why they are making all the c-store ships OP'd test drive is irrelevant. All you are going to see is spamming of higer tier sci abilities with little in the way of damage repercussions because of the high level eng skills to help heal. Just like how the high level tac skills make the excelsior a very dangerous ship in PvP now poeple have to decide do we go after the deadly tanks first or the squishy glass cannons first. Then with the nerf to RSP the cruisers, especially the Excelsior will be the primary damage dealers in matches. All of this could have been avoided by holding out the BOff layout change until all T5 ships were on equal footing. Right now majority of the cruisers in Pvp are excelsiors and when the nebula hits most of the sci guys will be in Nebulas.
Like I said before, this thread IS the Nebula's play test.
Right, I get you. Apologies. Yes, I completely agree. Sacrifice a high tactical and gain a high Science makes sense and allows all three endgame cruisers to be different.
I'm also not a canon fanatic. Still, this to me is a lot like turning what it is to be in the Star Trek universe on its head. Without an equally comparable ship on the Klingon side, you're in essence allowing Feds to be the hard to detect cloakers and it makes Klingons opposite of that. We should not be able to see them with a button click that reveals the whole map.
I'm not a huge fan of the universal station either. It could make for some interesting gameplay options though.
In the end, I think the thing I don't like most is that this is quickly becoming Cruisers Online. I'm a cruiser pilot mostly, but even I know when enough is enough. For me, enough is enough with the Excelsior. Everything we Feds get is cruisers, cruisers, cruisers.
Bacon is good too but I would get tired of it if I ate nothing but bacon every day for a week. Sooner or later I'd want some vienna sausages, beanie weenies or something.
I think the general consensus is that the Cruiser build will work best. The Science Build will not work without modifaction, some possibly more severe. The first thing is that the turn rate is just too low for a science ship. The second is that a second Lt. Tactical slot would be useless for most science ships. You can't use cannons, you got the innate Target Beam Subsystem skills conflicting with the relevant Tactical power cooldowns, and a Science Vessel just doesn't have that many weapon slots to begin with, making boosting that firepower very ineffective. So the Universal slot is only interesting for Science or Engineering powers. If you want to use the full Science template, be prepared for disappointment among the players of the ship and the overall sales.
Another justified concern is - is this power a mix of too specific and too strong? Will it negate advantages of the Klingons (advantages they pay with lower hull and shields, after all), but will they be useless in FvF?
Regarding the concern that players suck at balancing abilities. Yes, they sometimes do. But keep in mind that we are just suggesting stuff and presenting our thoughts - it's not the same as us getting to write the configuration files for the ship and offering them for download. The devs can evaluate the comments and figure out which points have merits and which builds are just a fantasy power trips of the poster in question. And to be honest, so far I usually see pretty reasonable suggestions and rarely people on such power trips. Maybe the fanbase is more mature at least in that regard. Or it's just due to the way the question is presented - We can be reasonably sure that the item will be bought for money, and that Cryptic will eventually nerf overpowered stuff. And no one wants his favorite ubership he payed good C-Store points on nerfed to uselessness. So better start with a mroe reasonable suggestion than the outrageous ones.
I think the problem is Startrek itself favored cruisers. Or the problem is that the distinction Cryptic makes is not... canon? There are only two ships that fall into the Cryptic categories. The Defiant was classified as an Escort, and the Oberth might be the example of a Science ship. Escort is basically a Federation euphemism for Warship, and Oberth was clearly not capable of holding up in a fight. Currently Science Vessels might seem undergunned, but the Oberth was a lot worse than that.
So, in the end, most ships in Startrek are best qualified as "Cruisers". Some might get the qualifaction "light" (Intrepid?), some might be classified heavy (Galaxy, Sovereign), but that's pretty much it. If more existed, it was not really shown on screen.
I'd rather see it be:
1 Lt Tact
1 Lt Science
1 LC Eng
1 Cm Universal
This still points the ship toward the intended Cruiser designation with the LC Eng but gives us poor science people an opportunity to use it effectively as well, even if we have to respec our ship skills...
Since this ship was supposedly a very modular ship and primarily a science ship it seemed...
Um...b-but Picard was a scientist...Kirk was a warrior...both flew cruisers...
While I believe screen evidence largely suggests Kirk would actually be an Engineer instead (the only captain to ever fabricate a deployable on-screen, among other things) this is definitely going down the right track. For another example, Sisko was part of the design team for the Defiant, suggesting an Engineering background himself, and the Defiant isn't just an escort, it's the escort. Captain type != ship role, especially for RP purposes where several of the escorts and science ships have generally been referred to as cruisers in other material.
As for the version with the commander universal station, That would make it truly perfect for my intended use of it, but I'm concerned it may make the ship to versitile to the point of out-shining to many of the other classes.
My vote is to keep it as originaly perposed. Though I will probably buy it in either of the forms I discussed above.
I really believe Cryptic made the right call classifying this ship as a Cruiser. It has way too many cruiser features to be anything else. I like the pod varient idea and the adjusting the stats based on whether it is a Engineering or Science varient, but classifying this ship as just science would be wrong. It's a crusier that can be modified into a science ship, but it's still a crusier none the less.
T1
Science: Oberth
Cruiser: Constitution
Escort: Miranda
T2
Science: Nova
Cruiser: Excelsior
Escort: Sabre
T3
Science: Intrepid
Cruiser: Ambassador
Escort: Defiant
T4
Science: Nebula
Cruiser: Galaxy
Escort: Akira
T5
Science: ?
Cruiser: Sovereign
Escort: ?
Science ships would not be combat ships, and should have had weak shields and hull, and minimal weapons. They would have an inherent sensor jamming ability that would allow them to escape being targeted (allowing them to survive combat). Their role would be purely supportive.
Escorts would be combat ships (I would have termed them "Warships" instead of "Escorts"), but meant for quick attacks. Think of Destroyers from WW2. They would have average weapons, average shields, and weak hulls. They would have better manueverability. They would have an inherent evasion ability that would make them harder to hit. Their role would be to do damage (largely via officer skills and Cannons)
Cruisers would be the sturdy, general use ship. They would have average shields and weaponry, but strong hull. They would be geared toward engineering, and would have a special ability to that end. The advanced Warp Core fits that description, but I might have looked for something a little different.
As for the T5 escort, im quite happy with the prometheus there. T5 Science, the Luna maybe. Its smaller than the Nebula but more advanced, so might work.