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Much less likely to buy lifetime again

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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    People who must have things immediately just to be first don't necessarily care about expense. To them, its more important to be first and to have something right now.

    Agreed. There will always be those who will want things first. However, Cryptic will lose money from the other people who realize they can save half the cost of the game and still get the items they want just by buying the "standard" edition and waiting a few months.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    joe_blue wrote:
    So, let's summarize your argument.

    Your summary was so completely off of anything I was actually saying that I wouldn't know where to begin on responding to it. So kudos on that. You have won the internet.:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Agreed. There will always be those who will want things first. However, Cryptic will lose money from the other people who realize they can save half the cost of the game and still get the items they want just by buying the "standard" edition and waiting a few months.

    I think it depends upon people's motivation. While I do believe there are those that will go out of their way to get all the bonuses regardless of cost, I don't think that's the case for most people. Once you've decided you're going to buy the game at release then doing a pre-order is a no-brainer cause you get a bonus item at no additional cost.

    Now if you're on the fence about buying the game, then yeah, waiting to get it cheaper is something to consider. Which is true of any game. But for these people I'm not convinced they will care all that much about the bonus items anyway. I just got Arkham Asylum on Steam, on sale. And while it happened to be the "game of the year" edition, with bonus items, I really didn't care either way.

    But I agree it might impact the "digital deluxe" versions of games. Unlike the collector's editions where you get physical swag, the digital deluxe versions are kinda a waste IMO, especially if the bonus items are going to show up in the C-Store. The flip side is that since they aren't physical boxed copies there really is no profit loss if they don't sell.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Agreed. There will always be those who will want things first. However, Cryptic will lose money from the other people who realize they can save half the cost of the game and still get the items they want just by buying the "standard" edition and waiting a few months.

    People who don't mind waiting are not going to buy pre-orders or pay early for exclusives, so it's a moot point.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    personae wrote:
    Honest answer and I do appreciate it. Wasn't really a trick question. I was just curious.

    No problemo. :)

    I can see where you're coming from in terms of a LTS for STO as well. I decided to go with the LTS not for the Liberated Borg, but because in the long run I'll be paying less. I've paid a monthly sub for over six years for CoX that equates to ~$900 + or more. If I continue playing CoX, I'll be spending even more as time goes on.

    For STO, the opportunity to save that money was more important to me personally and worth the risk. Even if by some chance Cryptic royally screws up STO tomorrow to the point where I won't play it anymore, I still wouldn't blame them for my purchase of a LTS and demand a refund. It was my choice to take the risk.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    personae wrote:
    Your summary was so completely off of anything I was actually saying that I wouldn't know where to begin on responding to it. So kudos on that. You have won the internet.:)

    Let's put this in doctor joe's translat-o-matic wheel, and see what we come up with:

    "I can't answer your summary because I can't think of a way to demonstrate its inaccuracy. Therefore, while I have to admit complete failure, I'll cover it up by using a hackneyed clich
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    StormShade wrote:
    I'm sorry you feel that way, and I disagree. I have a lot of fun playing Champs, and always have.

    You should try checking Champs out again if you haven't looked at it in a long time. They've made some great improvements between launch and now. Revelation has launched, with some of the best content that team has ever pout out, and last night they released The Serpent Lantern. If you've already paid for the game and a lifetime, then you have nothing to lose by checking it out.

    I won't disagree that we used the Mirror Universe Uniforms to drive sales, but I think you have it backwards. We used that perk to further interest in STO, not the other way around. What you purchased however, was a Lifetime Subscription to Champions, which you still have, and always will. Again, I'm sorry you feel mislead, it was never our intention to make any of our players feel that way.

    Thanks,

    Stormshade


    As a UK CO Lifetimer I do check in now and again to the game. I do agree the system has improved immensely compared to the hastily released unfinished unbalanced game it was a launch (I know this being a playtester for it and giving some quite descriptive and insightful suggestions on the quite glaring flaws the system had).

    However when I do log in I often see tumbleweeds roll across my screen and no thats not when I am in the Desert zone! The release day system revamp debacle, the Lifetime/6 month subscription debacle, the poorly organised/designed special events, the content bottlenecks at release and the unbalanced powers system (which only in the last two months got properly overhauled) have all contributed to demolishing the CO playerbase.

    My CO lifetime isnt worth squat, not due to a poor game, but due to poor management, miscommunication and handling of customer service. One thing I could say was that I had an exclusive outfit in STO that very few other people had. Now I cant even say that.

    STO on the other hand is a much better game that CO and I do enjoy it being a trek fan since the original series. However with the way marketing decisions/customer service are handled I suspect the ONLY reason you manage to maintain a decent player base in this game is due to the Respected and popular Star Trek IP name. Was trying to maintain a player base by offering our exclusive items a factor in making a quick buck through the C-Store? Is Cryptic having capital flow problems we should worry about?

    Personally my thoughts are that by releasing 'exclusive' items you now need to recompense everyone who purchased box sets with exclusivity (and see my post previously that quite clearly defines what exclusive means). And no people didnt necessarily read every post on this forum before the game was released so possibly stating you may release items a later date is not a caveat for this latest customer service travesty. Listing items as NON- exclusive would have been acceptable but by standard definitions of the english language marketing and selling items with the word "exclusive" does indeed mean that and is a breach of consumer trust (and probably law too... I have little knowledge of consumer law outside of the UK).

    So the fairest way to do this which I what I would recommend to your marketing/customer service people would be the following (and on a side note sack the marketing dept if it is still the same people who were working when Champions was released):

    Offer everyone who had a box set 400 or 500 officer skill points (with the exception of the box sets that already provided this!)
    Refund everyone the equivalent value Cryptic points for every item that people had unlocked through box sets/special offers based on what has been offered in the C-store now.
    Release every other exclusive that has been offered i.e. Playable Liberated Borg character, Phaser rifle, Shuttle, Chromodynamic Armor, Multi-spatial Shield, Del Taco Shuttle pet (as a UK resident I wasnt able to get this yet I would like one!) etc
    To CO and STO lifetime subscribers you need to offer a new "EXCLUSIVE" (will not be offered elsewhere) perk - Suggestions could be a Delta Flyer device (shuttle flys around the ship firing weak phasers like the Tactical Console), a new Costume (could be Archer's Enterprise uniform or DS9 Mirror Universe leather outfits), a unique Changling (Odo) or Ocampa (Kes) bridge officer or something along these lines.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    The logic in making special items available for all is without a fault, since nobody is especially served by envy and jealousy. Using such items initially as a Carrot to make people fork out more money, is on the other hand somewhat unethical, using the same line of logic, since nobody like the feeling of being cheated.

    This kind of logic might miss the money-generating aspect of all this of course. Probably why it is applied unevenly throughout the board. ;)

    ---
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    krako wrote: »
    I didn't find it deceptive at all. I read enough (astonishingly - the very same information you had access to) to understand that the 'exclusivity' of the items had to do with getting early access to them.

    Bottom line. It's your opinion that the advertising was 'deliberately deceptive'. This is probably because:

    a.) Either you didn't read enough information about what was being offered, or...
    b.) You failed to comprehend the information, or...
    c.) You disregarded information that did not jive with your preconceived notion of what the offer was.

    In any of the above cases, it wasn't some other entity being 'deliberately deceptive'. It was you not being a good consumer.

    Caveat Emptor.

    I am pretty sure that if you are advertising something as exclusive then it has to also be listed on the same package by what terms that exclusivity is. Thats why its called fine print because they have to squeeze in the clauses. Listing something as exclusive in one place then saying in an entirely different place that someone may not have seen that the exclusivity is only on a limited time period is I am pretty sure NOT a defence.

    All the people who are trying to justify this as a legitimate decision are either ones who have benefited from it or are those just trying to stir or flame. This IS a legitimate consumer issue and to be a naysayer is just aggravating the situation. You may have agreed with the decision or been happy about it... fine... but that doesnt mean it was a Corrrect decision on the part of Cryptic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Drina wrote: »
    Personally my thoughts are that by releasing 'exclusive' items you now need to recompense everyone who purchased box sets with exclusivity (and see my post previously that quite clearly defines what exclusive means). And no people didnt necessarily read every post on this forum before the game was released so possibly stating you may release items a later date is not a caveat for this latest customer service travesty. Listing items as NON- exclusive would have been acceptable but by standard definitions of the english language marketing and selling items with the word "exclusive" does indeed mean that and is a breach of consumer trust (and probably law too... I have little knowledge of consumer law outside of the UK).

    Just so we can all operate from the same principles, please demonstrate (again) how the word "exclusive" by definition indicates "for all time.'

    Also, show me a lawsuit or legal notice, heck just link to the law, where the word "exclusive" is shown to have the meaning that you claim it does.

    If you can do that, I will happily lobby Cryptic for your compensation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I see this is still going on. I am not surprised. I figure there will be a new crisis sooner or later and this one will fade. Although I am kind of sad I missed the brothel thread.


    Funny thing though, the best item I bought yesterday in the c-store had nothing to do with this subject at all.


    Sometimes I think we forget that it doesn't matter if you bought the pre orders or exclusives or even what sub you have. We all spent money to play the game.

    Oh well, just an observation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    joe_blue wrote:
    Just so we can all operate from the same principles, please demonstrate (again) how the word "exclusive" by definition indicates "for all time.'

    Also, show me a lawsuit or legal notice, heck just link to the law, where the word "exclusive" is shown to have the meaning that you claim it does.

    If you can do that, I will happily lobby Cryptic for your compensation.

    It is you who is playing with words. Drina is 100% correct.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Drina wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that if you are advertising something as exclusive then it has to also be listed on the same package by what terms that exclusivity is. Thats why its called fine print because they have to squeeze in the clauses. Listing something as exclusive in one place then saying in an entirely different place that someone may not have seen that the exclusivity is only on a limited time period is I am pretty sure NOT a defence.

    "Pretty sure" is nowhere near enough: you need to show us where such an explanation of the word exclusive is necessary. Citing the appropriate law will suffice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    I see this is still going on. I am not surprised. I figure there will be a new crisis sooner or later and this one will fade. Although I am kind of sad I missed the brothel thread.

    .

    i figured that would go in waves for the next week. it would calm down at night, and slowly pick up in the morning until it peaks in the evening. then the cycle continues.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Sernon wrote:
    The logic in making special items available for all is without a fault, since nobody is especially served by envy and jealousy. Using such items initially as a Carrot to make people fork out more money, is on the other hand somewhat unethical, using the same line of logic, since nobody like the feeling of being cheated.

    So I tell you what.... next time anyone buys something - regardless of what it is and where they buy it - then sees that item they bought go on sale or be offered at a discount several months later, go back to that store and demand a refund or store credit. See how far you get.

    I can assure you... not very far at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    It is you who is playing with words. Drina is 100% correct.

    Ok, then I must plead ignorance of the language. Could you please provide me with the requested information, so that I know how to use the words correctly?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    I see this is still going on. I am not surprised. I figure there will be a new crisis sooner or later and this one will fade. Although I am kind of sad I missed the brothel thread.


    Funny thing though, the best item I bought yesterday in the c-store had nothing to do with this subject at all.


    Sometimes I think we forget that it doesn't matter if you bought the pre orders or exclusives or even what sub you have. We all spent money to play the game.

    Oh well, just an observation.

    Something you've forgotten is they handed out free crptic points, so while some people payed for items others haven't. Yet both parties now have them. That is unethical.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    joe_blue wrote:
    Ok, then I must plead ignorance of the language. Could you please provide me with the requested information, so that I know how to use the words correctly?

    I didn't say that, but if you want to brand yourself as such feel free.

    You're doing nothing more than word play to wind people up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    No problemo. :)

    I can see where you're coming from in terms of a LTS for STO as well. I decided to go with the LTS not for the Liberated Borg, but because in the long run I'll be paying less. I've paid a monthly sub for over six years for CoX that equates to ~$900 + or more. If I continue playing CoX, I'll be spending even more as time goes on.

    For STO, the opportunity to save that money was more important to me personally and worth the risk. Even if by some chance Cryptic royally screws up STO tomorrow to the point where I won't play it anymore, I still wouldn't blame them for my purchase of a LTS and demand a refund. It was my choice to take the risk.

    I was really on the fence on the STO-LTS. I could have gone either way on it. The reason you gave was certainly the major factor in favor of it. Which was weighed on the opposite side of how long I actually expected to play. At least a year seemed incredibly likely, but I knew it might be as long as six months after launch before the game really got up to speed. What tipped me in favor of getting it was so small a factor, it was comical. I really wanted something resembling an eyepatch for my mirror captain, and the borg was the only way to get one. :D

    So the bit of hindsight that would have tipped that purchase in the other direction would be the Mercenary Costume pack coming with Season 2. But it was the deciding factor, not the only reason for the purchase. I'd have had no objections about the Borg hitting the C-store anyways, since the pre-order Faq was clearly posted at that point and I went into that purchase with eyes open. I've always been in favor of all Lifetimers getting it at the very least, since some paid more.

    Because of that Faq I also avoided buying multiple copies. I did choose poorly on the ones I did buy (DDEs) but that was completely my own fault for not noticing it didn't say exclusive or unique next to the TOS unforms I bought them for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    I didn't say that, but if you want to brand yourself as such feel free.

    You're doing nothing more than word play to wind people up.

    I'm still trying to figure out how asking people to justify their definition of the word "exclusive" is "word play."

    Thus far, nobody has been able to explain why "exclusive" has some kind of time limit on it, or how an item that is still restricted to only those who purchase it is not an exclusive item.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Drina wrote: »
    Personally my thoughts are that by releasing 'exclusive' items you now need to recompense everyone who purchased box sets with exclusivity (and see my post previously that quite clearly defines what exclusive means). And no people didnt necessarily read every post on this forum before the game was released so possibly stating you may release items a later date is not a caveat for this latest customer service travesty.

    So because you didn't read the fine print it's Cryptic's fault?
    Listing items as NON- exclusive would have been acceptable but by standard definitions of the english language marketing and selling items with the word "exclusive" does indeed mean that and is a breach of consumer trust (and probably law too... I have little knowledge of consumer law outside of the UK).

    Actually the Mirror Universe costumes (as well as most of the bonus items) aren't listed as "exclusive", so what again are you arguing about?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    Something you've forgotten is they handed out free crptic points, so while some people payed for items others haven't. Yet both parties now have them. That is unethical.

    how is that unethical?

    lets look at it in a better example. now that example is built from what you said.

    you bought a car when it first came out. then the price dropped a lot on the same type of car and other people got it cheaper. but they also had a contest, and lets say they gave away the same type of car to 50 people.

    how is that unethical?

    and it falls in the same boat, they gave away points for doing something, which a business has a right to do. so once again how it is unethical?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    Something you've forgotten is they handed out free crptic points, so while some people payed for items others haven't. Yet both parties now have them. That is unethical.

    Say what? How does that have anything to do with what I posted?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    Say what? How does that have anything to do with what I posted?

    I want to know how it is unethical.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    how is that unethical?

    lets look at it in a better example. now that example is built from what you said.

    you bought a car when it first came out. then the price dropped a lot on the same type of car and other people got it cheaper. but they also had a contest, and lets say they gave away the same type of car to 50 people.

    how is that unethical?

    and it falls in the same boat, they gave away points for doing something, which a business has a right to do. so once again how it is unethical?

    It unethical, because they pulled people in with an offer (which was only recent), then gave away the items for free (to the value of the free Cryptic points).

    Just like giving aware the TOS uniform, when they encouraged and knew people had bought additional boxes simply for them.

    The clearly have the BBB rating for a reason.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    I want to know how it is unethical.

    Well that is a good question too
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    joe_blue wrote:
    Yes. If a person purchases a car in order to get the nifty air freshener, there's nothing to stop them because they are well within their rights to do so. And there's nothing wrong with the dealer listing the air freshener as part of the package.

    What we have here is some people who purchased a car, and are currently driving it around, but claim that they really only wanted the air freshener.

    Is it the dealer's responsibility to tell the buyer that he or she is buying the car for the wrong reason?

    Actually do people not buy more expensive models of cars BECAUSE of the added perks in those cars (air fresheners notwithstanding)? I think you will find they do!
    Seat warmers, aircon, electric mirrors etc... these are all additional perks people buy as part of a package for more expensive models!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dryan wrote:
    It unethical, because they pulled people in with an offer (which was only recent), then gave away the items for free (to the value of the free Cryptic points).

    Just like giving aware the TOS uniform, when they knew (and encouraged) people had bought boxes simply for them.

    The clearly have the BBB rating for a reason.

    I am afraid you don't understand the point, purpose and role of the BBB.


    However, you still didn't address what this had to do with what I posted?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    Well that is a good question too

    Yeah, its cultural and also changes with time. Common ethics though are not to mislead and rip people off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Drina wrote: »
    Actually do people not buy more expensive models of cars BECAUSE of the added perks in those cars (air fresheners notwithstanding)? I think you will find they do!
    Seat warmers, aircon, electric mirrors etc... these are all additional perks people buy as part of a package for more expensive models!

    What is the difference between a perk and a feature? Seat warmers, air conditioning, electric mirrors are features not perks.
This discussion has been closed.