I was looking at your previous thread regarding this issue and you posted the following:
Daeke
Online Community Team
Join Date: Apr 2009
Limited-Time Subscription Deals!
We're very excited to announce two special subscription packages available for purchase for a limited-time! Both of these offers are only going to be around until supplies last, so sign up while you still can. Below are the details for both the lifetime and 6-month subscription packages.
Lifetime subscriptions include:
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Exclusive Retro Future costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions come with:
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Have either of these caught your eye?
I respectfully disagree, all features with exception to the MU uniforms were active in game Champions rewards for lifetime subscribers the MU were bonus toward STO. They were not redeemable in Champions therefore they were a future out of game bonus towards STO. (CHECKMATE)
and this :
I copied and pasted it from the Champions site......"Unique" Is the operative word!!, NOT EXCLUSIVE!!!!
MY POINT EXACTLY!!! Thank you for your brilliant powers of observation, thus being a bonus and not an in game exclusive...
Checkmate.
Buuuut I looked here on the STO forums and found the following:
For a limited time only six-month and lifetime subscribers to Cryptic Studios' other MMO, Champions Online, will receive, among other exciting perks, guaranteed access to the Star Trek Online beta test!
"Beyond the deep discount on the subscription rates, we wanted to come up with added incentives and exclusives that, as gamers, we could get excited about," said Jack Emmert, Cryptic Studios' Chief Operating Officer. "With an early commitment to Champions Online, granting guaranteed early access to our next big game, Star Trek Online, seemed like a great way to engage Cryptics biggest fans in other projects at the studio.
Lifetime subscribers will also receive an exclusive Mirror Universe costume set for Star Trek Online.
Here are the great features our loyal customers will receive.
* Guaranteed Star Trek Online Closed Beta Access
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers.
* Retro Future costume set.
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
Six Month Discounted Subscription ($59.99 USD | $65.99 CAN | £35.99 GBP | 44.99 EUR)
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Retro Future costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Dont miss out on these great deals! You can purchase your subscriptions now!
Dont miss out on these great deals! You can purchase your subscriptions now!
The simple truth is that all non lifetime subscribers, will at a certain point, eclipse the monetary investment of all lifetime subscribers. While I am all for a title and maybe a small unique item to commemorate their investment, the fact considered, most lifetime subscribers rewards, which are based upon the monetary investment, should become available to the general, paying public.
I was looking at your previous thread regarding this issue and you posted the following:
Daeke
Online Community Team
Join Date: Apr 2009
Limited-Time Subscription Deals!
We're very excited to announce two special subscription packages available for purchase for a limited-time! Both of these offers are only going to be around until supplies last, so sign up while you still can. Below are the details for both the lifetime and 6-month subscription packages.
Lifetime subscriptions include:
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Exclusive Retro Future costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions come with:
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Have either of these caught your eye?
I respectfully disagree, all features with exception to the MU uniforms were active in game Champions rewards for lifetime subscribers the MU were bonus toward STO. They were not redeemable in Champions therefore they were a future out of game bonus towards STO. (CHECKMATE)
and this :
I copied and pasted it from the Champions site......"Unique" Is the operative word!!, NOT EXCLUSIVE!!!!
MY POINT EXACTLY!!! Thank you for your brilliant powers of observation, thus being a bonus and not an in game exclusive...
Checkmate.
Buuuut I looked here on the STO forums and found the following:
Note the bit in red there.
I am sorry none of the links you provided take me anywhere to see factual documentation of this as a fact, and my information was pulled in its entirety from the Champions Online post for this offer. I would further submit you should of checked the fine print on the offer or Cryptic changed their minds about exclusivity, because It does not reflect your position in black and white. That is the equivalent of hear say and would not be considered admissible, entertaining, but not admissible as evidence.
The Terms of service were only stated on the Champions site as the point of purchase site, any and all commentary that is not spelled out can be chalked up to a slip of the tongue at best, That never was confirmed in the end user purchasing agreement (meaning the Champions Life Time Feature page). So I would say if that was the case, It still did not make it in the final deal, as it may or may not of been commented upon. I will go on to say some of the visions/ commentary of what STO was to become upon their announcement never made it into the end user content/purchase agreement.
On a side note this is the strongest counter point I have heard thus far and I thank you for making it. Unfortunately all the other advertisements are consistent in the same( Meaning their visual attributes and type) way(STO DDE) and PROVE EXCLUSIVE ARE called just that, and Unique items are unique to type and not exclusivity.
I refer you to the four ways in previous posts we were able to prove that to be fact by the preponderance of evidence(or beyond a reasonable doubt) I do thank you for your point of view, but the overwhelming opposition of documented facts (end user purchase agreement on CO features page) would NOT sway the facts to your counter point even if the commentary were to be true. At that point it would be considered a loophole probably designed into the offer. Furthermore as someone pointed out that the Champions Life time offer was unexpectedly canceled (documented by Cryptic on the CO thread) that it would be both reasonable and prudent that the uniforms would likely be offered in a different way, I agree and will add that it is good business not withhold and Iconic piece of the Star Trek Universe such as the MU Uniforms. Once again I thank you for your counter point, and I bid you good day sir
The simple truth is that all non lifetime subscribers, will at a certain point, eclipse the monetary investment of all lifetime subscribers. While I am all for a title and maybe a small unique item to commemorate their investment, the fact considered, most lifetime subscribers rewards, which are based upon the monetary investment, should become available to the general, paying public.
I agree, with this provided the subscriber has been with this title as long as Lifetime Subscription purchase ($299.) to begin receiving these as Veteran Unlocks Reward. The PreLaunch Lifetime Investors these things should be made available instantly, and for newer Lifetime Subscribers, Long term Subscribers and Mothly on a Veterans Reward system. This sounds very reasonable to me.
Its sound like you are trying to start up the argument you accused me of trying to start? I offer the documented evidence in all of my posts, I with further add that I did spell it out in the simplest terms for you point by point in crayon, and put this to bed by saying once more good day sir.
No what I'm saying is that the only way to disprove what you're claiming is to restart the arguements that caused the other thread to be locked. You should have stuck to the topic matter of this thread, but you couldn't resist trying to get the final word in for the locked thread.
Your opinions are still that: Opinions, no matter what you might think. Until Someone from Cryptic says otherwise.
The simple truth is that all non lifetime subscribers, will at a certain point, eclipse the monetary investment of all lifetime subscribers. While I am all for a title and maybe a small unique item to commemorate their investment, the fact considered, most lifetime subscribers rewards, which are based upon the monetary investment, should become available to the general, paying public.
I don't disagree. Which is why I've been in favor of a 400-500 day vet reward for those who didn't get it directly via the Champions Lifetime offer. That is roughly the point the LT investment is covered. So that we knew back then the alternate method to get the uniform, there would be a reasonable chance we would have picked the same route we did.
I am sorry none of the links you provided take me anywhere to see factual documentation of this as a fact, and my information was pulled in its entirety from the Champions Online post for this offer. I would further submit you should of checked the fine print on the offer or Cryptic changed their minds about exclusivity, because It does not reflect your position in black and white. That is the equivalent of hear say and would not be considered admissible, entertaining, but not admissible as evidence.
This should clear up the mystery, upon further research (91pages)and review It appears that due to initial out cry about the possibility of the Mirror Universe Uniforms being exclusive to the Champions Offer, Cryptic did respond by posting on the Champions Online Forum. They posted this offer below and removed any indication that the MU Uniform set would be exclusive, It was further posted that they were unsure when they would be made available again.
For a limited time only six-month and lifetime subscribers to Cryptic Studios' other MMO, Champions Online, will receive, among other exciting perks, guaranteed access to the Star Trek Online beta test!
"Beyond the deep discount on the subscription rates, we wanted to come up with added incentives and exclusives that, as gamers, we could get excited about," said Jack Emmert, Cryptic Studios' Chief Operating Officer. "With an early commitment to Champions Online, granting guaranteed early access to our next big game, Star Trek Online, seemed like a great way to engage Cryptics biggest fans in other projects at the studio.
Lifetime subscribers will also receive an exclusive Mirror Universe costume set for Star Trek Online.
Here are the great features our loyal customers will receive.
* Guaranteed Star Trek Online Closed Beta Access
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers.
* Retro Future costume set.
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
Six Month Discounted Subscription ($59.99 USD | $65.99 CAN | £35.99 GBP | 44.99 EUR)
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Retro Future costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Dont miss out on these great deals! You can purchase your subscriptions now!
Dont miss out on these great deals! You can purchase your subscriptions now!
Rekhan went on further to say to check the Champions posting for details and that This is a new market for us, and these decisions will be made as we take more cues from the market.( They removed all reference to exclusive from the purchaser agreement/advertisement when the offer went LIVE on Champions)
We are also offering two exclusive subscription packages, available only until September 1st.
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions: (REMOVED any usage of word EXCLUSIVE relating to the MU Uniforms OFFER)
* Price: $59.99 USD, $65.99 CAN, 44.99 EUR, and £35.99 GBP
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Retro Future costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Lifetime Subscriptions:
* Price: $199.99 USD, $219.99 CAN, 147.99 EUR, and £119.99 GBP
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Retro Future costume set
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
Default Champions Online Pricing
Atari and Cryptic Studios are happy to announce the final pricing and subscription programs for Champions Online!
Retail Pricing:
$49.99 USD, $54.99 CAN, 49.99 EUR, and £29.99 GBP
Regular Monthly Subscription:
$14.99 USD, $16.49 CAN, 12.99 EUR, and £8.99 GBP
We are also offering two exclusive subscription packages, available only until September 1st.
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions: (REMOVED any usage of word EXCLUSIVE relating to the MU Uniforms OFFER)
* Price: $59.99 USD, $65.99 CAN, 51.99 EUR, and £35.99 GBP
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Lifetime Subscriptions:
* Price: $199.99 USD, $219.99 CAN, 173.99 EUR, and £119.99 GBP
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Exclusive Retro Future costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
To purchase either of these packages, head over to the Exclusive Specials section of our site.
Link to the news post
__________________ "Don't tell me what I can't do." - John Locke
Hey folks, I wanted to hop in here to clear up a few things.
The original tone of the news post that started this thread was very STO-specific because we thought we should emphasize what we thought would be most exciting to STO fans. Once we read the thread and realized some of you had concerns about that messaging, we changed it to showcase the entire Champions Online subscription offer and make the overall post more informative. If you check the post on the Champions Site, youll notice the offers are the same.(REMOVED any usage of word EXCLUSIVE relating to the MU Uniforms OFFER)
In regard to questions specifically about the Mirror Universe costume set, I dont have an answer for you on its future availability, because we just dont know yet. But thank you for your posts on this issue, as your opinion will definitely help shape the future of our offers.
As far as the STO beta, the vast majority of our beta testers will be selected by conventional means, meaning well draw from a pool of people who sign up for beta via our website. This is how we did it for Champions and we were extremely happy with our testers and our test process.
And just to reiterate: Were cross-promoting both titles, and we plan to do so with all the games we make in the future. We want fans of our games to be fans of all our games, and we want to engage people who choose to play more than one; its just good business. Did you know, for instance, that your login here will also work on the Champions site, as is?
I really do appreciate the feedback youre posting in regard to this issue, and people from every level of the company are reading it.
__________________
Rekhan
Marketing Guy Star Trek Online/Champions Online
Picard Song, Best Song
Follow me on Twitter!
Originally Posted by trebort5050 View Post
Shush you! Rekhans response was long overdue.
Sometimes it takes a while to get things right. My response wasn't as timely as it could've been, but I'd hope it's a step in the right direction nonetheless.
__________________
Rekhan
Marketing Guy Star Trek Online/Champions Online
Picard Song, Best Song
Follow me on Twitter!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rota View Post
How far will these cross promotions go? Will there be STO benefits available ONLY to CO players who can do something in-game CO to get the reward in STO? ...and vise-versa?
Am I going to be required to have CO to avail myself of all the STO material that will be available? I would like to know now so I can buy the lifetime membership.
I would only ever login to CO to do whatever is required for STO rewards. If you must extort my money then tell us now please so I'm not a year into STO membership and then something comes along available only to CO players.
please excuse the glass-half-empty tone of this post. I know it was meant as a peace offering, but Cryptic has not exactly gone out of their way to earn people's trust in the last few days
See my answer about the future availability of Mirror Universe stuff. We don't know yet. This is a new market for us, and these decisions will be made as we take more cues from the market. It's also why we're reading your feedback. Knowing what you guys like and don't like helps us make decisions for the future.
__________________
Rekhan
Marketing Guy Star Trek Online/Champions Online
Picard Song, Best Song
Follow me on Twitter!
Can we just get this resolved with something in black and white from a gold name? Please?
I am tired of this endless interpretation of the slimmest sliver of hints and "facts" being manufactured from the absence of an actual statement, rather than the presence of one.
I don't care how many colors you post in, or how many times you make the same assertions, all arguments for and against this are nothing more than leaps of logic hinging on the interpretation of a SINGLE word or its absence, which sadly can prove nothing at all when one considers the source material's omissions could be anything fro a typo to an actual policy.
Phoxe, kindly give the team an in-person facepalm from me for the silence on this issue.
I have my opinion, and my heartfelt desire for how this should play out, based solely on the idea and ideals of why some rewards should remain exclusive. Others have their heart and considerable time sunk into their opinion that they have "proof" with little more actual evidence than can be found in any high-profile conspiracy theory.
1) PLEASE curtail the announcement by community members they have "proof" when they clearly only have conviction. (this applies to both sides of the argument)
2) PLEASE end this continuing squabble with specific policy and intent from the team regarding MU exclusivity, and its possible expiration of exclusivity, without resorting to openly interpretable phrases like "may change" and "for now" but clearly define and state the Cryptic policy for ALL STO exclusive rewards.
By doing the above you will concrete two things - whether or not it is worth actually taking a leap of faith in any rewarded activity or offer Cryptic provides, and of course settle once and for all the bickering and debate so we can get back to working together on constructive discussions about meaningful content, rather than teeth grinding fanaticism over vanity and the value of reward, loyalty, and effort.
Can we just get this resolved with something in black and white from a gold name? Please?
(Everything in gold in my above post was a Cryptic response with the respective link attached)
I am tired of this endless interpretation of the slimmest sliver of hints and "facts" being manufactured from the absence of an actual statement, rather than the presence of one. (I included all actual Cryptic statement in Yellow and respective links for verification)
I don't care how many colors you post in, or how many times you make the same assertions, all arguments for and against this are nothing more than leaps of logic hinging on the interpretation of a SINGLE word or its absence, which sadly can prove nothing at all when one considers the source material's omissions could be anything fro a typo to an actual policy.
(I did my research I color coded it so it would be easier for the lay person to see point by point.
their is not leap of logic it was as easily defined as a grade school assignment to me.)
The community initially complained and Cryptic responded by removing exclusivity in the offer. " Default Champions Online Pricing Atari and Cryptic Studios are happy to announce the final pricing and subscription programs for Champions Online!") This is not rocket science, It is basic reading comprehension.
This should clear up the mystery... They posted this offer below and removed any indication that the MU Uniform set would be exclusive, It was further posted that they were unsure when they would be made available again.
That actually makes it more confusing. You also seem to be omitting things, as I easily found links to news pieces which are dated after several of your links. What is the date of the "unsure" post?
This is August 20th, 2009. AFTER all your quotes but the last unquoted dev post in the last thread you quoted.
So, while on the forums there was debate not 15 days after your "not sure," we see official news stating "unique" which is of course open to interpretation, just like any other argument we could muster without official weigh-in.
"Unique" seems to signify, well... UNIQUE. Which is in all honesty not exclusive, per se, but suggestive that the specific version be limited/unique - which I tent to interpret as "we have x, but you have not x but similar"
At any rate, none of this matters unless and until there is official clarification.
The community initially complained and Cryptic responded by removing exclusivity in the offer. " Default Champions Online Pricing Atari and Cryptic Studios are happy to announce the final pricing and subscription programs for Champions Online!") This is not rocket science, It is basic reading comprehension.
... you are quoting items 9+ months old which ended in "we don't know"
I am calling out a gold post on this matter now because obviously, there is room for clarification.
PS- what was the date of the "final pricing" thing? I'm scrolling up for that, but it would be a timesaver to snag that link... maybe I just skimmed past it.
Edit- found it. did skim past. August 4th. So, despite the omission on the 4th, 16 days later on the 20th, its "Unique" in the same source's news site. Apparently, it is rocket science then.
Please find something more recent than 8/20/2009 which either omits or outright denies exclusivity. "Unique" is debatable, and I concede it is not definitive, but I also firmly stand against this matter being closed unless and until the policy is defined in clear words by the team, here and now.
That actually makes it more confusing. You also seem to be omitting things, as I easily found links to news pieces which are dated after several of your links. What is the date of the "unsure" post?
This is August 20th, 2009. AFTER all your quotes but the last unquoted dev post in the last thread you quoted.
So, while on the forums there was debate not 15 days after your "not sure," we see official news stating "unique" which is of course open to interpretation, just like any other argument we could muster without official weigh-in.
"Unique" seems to signify, well... UNIQUE. Which is in all honesty not exclusive, per se, but suggestive that the specific version be limited/unique - which I tent to interpret as "we have x, but you have not x but similar"
At any rate, none of this matters unless and until there is official clarification.
As to your reply above... you are quoting items 9+ months old which ended in "we don't know"
I am calling out a gold post on this matter now because obviously, there is room for clarification.
PS- what was the date of the "final pricing" thing? I'm scrolling up for that, but it would be a timesaver to snag that link... maybe I just skimmed past it.
I think you might have skimmed past all the links are directly above the Cryptic Response. It is in the 2nd and 3rd gold Champion offers. The offer ended on September 1, 2009 the post shows valid from 8/4 until the end of August.
I think you might have skimmed past all the links are directly above the Cryptic Response. It is in the 2nd and 3rd gold Champion offers. The offer ended on September 1, 2009 the post shows valid from 8/4 until the end of August.
And the statement of the items being "Unique" occurs 16 days later on the 20th.
This is all really simple to end if someone would step up from the team and end it.
I'll even accept "we still haven't decided, 9 months later"
Can we at least agree that the evidence is not clear, and our interpretations of it, despite being opposed, are both based on insufficient information?
Frankly i dont understand the fuss a lot of MU owners are making except for some childish need to feel superior than others because they have something they dont.
A whole load of us(including me) are definatley willing to "pay" for the MU uniforms for a reasonable price.
I don't feel superior. I do resent being labeled. Perhaps you feel inferior, and feel the need to insist the circumstances you feel inferior in are the fault of someone you perceive as superior? I cant say, but I certainly don't feel that way, and I'm quite certain telling me how I feel breaks some rules here...
That said, I do feel *deserving* of reward, which is of course a view of myself, and takes into consideration my actions alone. Were this some kind of competitive thing, where in I *competed* against others to be judged verses their abilities and as such found or not found to have superior ability, then yes I suppose an air of superiority would be difficult to avoid. But seeing as my actions were not in any competitive forum, I fail to see how anyone could honestly examine the circumstances and conclude anything about my personality from them without drawing into question their own motives and flaws.
Addendum: Based on your statement and the color of your name, I presume then you are among the LTS holders seeking to have Borg captain races given to anyone? You have no issue with TCT, LB, "Career Officer" and your other perks becoming commonplace?
Frankly i dont understand the fuss a lot of MU owners are making except for some childish need to feel superior than others because they have something they dont.
A whole load of us(including me) are definatley willing to "pay" for the MU uniforms for a reasonable price.
As explained earlier the fuss isn't about feeling superior. Its about having to pay hundreds to get something that becomes available for a few dollars less than a month later. Simple as that.
Any alternate method of getting them past the 400 day mark is fine with me. Vet reward just makes the most sense at that point.
Addendum: Based on your statement and the color of your name, I presume then you are among the LTS holders seeking to have Borg captain races given to anyone? You have no issue with TCT, LB, "Career Officer" and your other perks becoming commonplace?
As long as things like the MU uniforms remain non-obtainable then no, i do not want to see anyone else get the original LTS perks etc.
However if the MU Uniforms were to become obtainable then yes, i would not mind others being able to attain the Liberated Borg etc.
I did not mean that you specificly had a superiority complex, but unfortunatley i have had some bad experiences with some MU owners that have been all high and mighty and actually been trolling and flamebaiting(and been Banned for it).
So yeah, nothing personal there.
As explained earlier the fuss isn't about feeling superior. Its about having to pay hundreds to get something that becomes available for a few dollars less than a month later. Simple as that.
Any alternate method of getting them past the 400 day mark is fine with me. Vet reward just makes the most sense at that point.
That would suggest that the MU uniform was worth hundreds of dollars, which it clearly was not since those hundreds of dollars were for a whole package of things including a lifetime subscribtion which alone would be worth even more hundreds of dollars.
As explained earlier the fuss isn't about feeling superior. Its about having to pay hundreds to get something that becomes available for a few dollars less than a month later. Simple as that.
Any alternate method of getting them past the 400 day mark is fine with me. Vet reward just makes the most sense at that point.
Cryptics desicion to make customers buy a CO lifetime for the MU's was/is a very poor decision. Anyone, who knows anything about Star Trek could see the trouble coming the second the idea was conceived. It alienated the Star Trek fans to make something so important in Star Trek lore available by investing over $200 in another game.
It was/is unfair to those that felt they had to spend the money to get the Uniforms, but had no interesst in a lifetime CO sub. It is unfair to the paying customer Cryptic has in STO.
The best thing Cryptic could do is to offer anyone who has a STO sub a full rebate on their CO lifetime subs that had the MU's in them. Then the Mu's should be made available for a moderate amount of Cryptic points in the C-Store.
MU's for a lifetime sub in another game... whats next?
Rebate, are you serious?
If peoples sole motivation for buying the CO LTS was the MU uniform then thats their problem.
The value of the CO LTS alone like i greater than the price paid, hence no rebate would be in order.
Rebate, are you serious?
If peoples sole motivation for buying the CO LTS was the MU uniform then thats their problem.
The value of the CO LTS alone like i greater than the price paid, hence no rebate would be in order.
That would suggest that CO's lifetime offer was worth it on its own merits at the time it was offered. And it wasn't. Whether you like it or not, they did use the MU uniforms and the guaranteed beta access to sell it.
Because of this, a Vet reward is fair. Note I'm not saying a vet reward in CO, but a Vet reward in STO. That would honor at least the spirit of the offer, while still allowing an alternate method of obtaining them.
I think the cart and horse have been interpreted as being in the wrong order.
The MU & Beta Access was added to the CO LTS to increase the LTS's value to CO players.
To interpret that as being targeted at STO players seems a bit strange to me, as there are likely a very small number willing and able to drop $200 just to get a single top, belt, and badge. That was the INTENTION, at any rate. I think it would be amusing to hear what people think should have been used instead to set apart CO LTSers in STO.
My CO LTS is now underutilized, to be sure, but only because that game has failed to retain my interests. It is a sad commentary on the times to see so many assume anyone with a CO LTS who plays STO got that LTS just for the STO perks. I suppose ti is because many of them were willing to do so, but not able?
What ever happened to sour grapes? these days, the fox thinks the grapes have a superiority complex and should be cut down???
That would suggest that CO's lifetime offer was worth it on its own merits at the time it was offered. And it wasn't. Whether you like it or not, they did use the MU uniforms and the guaranteed beta access to sell it.
Because of this, a Vet reward is fair. Note I'm not saying a vet reward in CO, but a Vet reward in STO. That would honor at least the spirit of the offer, while still allowing an alternate method of obtaining them.
I disagree, slightly. I still maintain like you that alternate means to obtaining Mirror Universe uniforms become available, but I continue to insist that the uniqueness of the particular CO LTS uniform be maintained.
That said, I think the Kirk MU from TOS would be just fine as a 400+ day vet reward, but the Spock MU from TOS we have as CO LTS should not.
Unfortunately, I believe CO has determined that the CO LTS costume pieces for CO will become vet rewards in CO... then again I have that information second hand. (Correction, there appears to be 2 costumes from this, one "exclusive" and not vet reward material, another "limited" and there is debate on that coming to a future vet system)
Rebate, are you serious?
If peoples sole motivation for buying the CO LTS was the MU uniform then thats their problem.
The value of the CO LTS alone like i greater than the price paid, hence no rebate would be in order.
Well, those that truly want a CO LTS would not request a refund when offered.
I think the cart and horse have been interpreted as being in the wrong order.
The MU & Beta Access was added to the CO LTS to increase the LTS's value to CO players.
This is the crux of the matter. Cryptic made a very poor choice in offering the MU on the CO LTS. I have posted it before and will post again that the MU is a very important part of Star Trek lore. Making them available only to those willing to shell out $200 for another game was a very, very bad move that had trouble written all over it.
Beta access and a borg tribble or unique CO themed BO would have been more fitting.
And the statement of the items being "Unique" occurs 16 days later on the 20th. (Unique was in the initial offer, because It described the TYPE of uniforms, Unique Mirror Universe uniform set. Cryptic just removed the exclusive from the MU post due to the negative feed back(91 pages) of having to subscribe to CO for $200 to receive the MU set.)
This is all really simple to end if someone would step up from the team and end it.
I'll even accept "we still haven't decided, 9 months later"
Can we at least agree that the evidence is not clear, and our interpretations of it, despite being opposed, are both based on insufficient information?
Please find something more recent than 8/20/2009 which either omits or outright denies exclusivity. "Unique" is debatable, and I concede it is not definitive, but I also firmly stand against this matter being closed unless and until the policy is defined in clear words by the team, here and now.
I agree that more information is better than less, The facts presented by all strongly support my case. I will agree at bare minimum that the information due to poor launch communication may need to be followed up with the community. The information as it currently stands decisively supports my conclusion. I will further say that their is missing information, and that is in what offer or by what means will the MU uniforms be available again?
It is my opinion that Cryptic realized they had made a mistake offering the MU uniforms with the CO LTS based off of the STO forums prelaunch initial advertisement offer that received Very Strong NEGATIVE Feed back, Then Cryptic Changed the offer before it went live to appease the STO forum people, by removing the exclusivity from the advertisement, and then felt they could not make everyone happy, so then they answered everyone in vague manner, so that the STO people were happy with the Non Exclusivity change, and soft/ vague enough that the CO people would not burst into flames with anger. To further appease the CO people came out and said we do not know when the uniforms will be available again. Vague in this matter would be creating a loophole for non exclusivity, and not coming out and saying in bold letters we changed the exclusivity status prior to launch, they silently just removed it from the offer. Thus taking the exclusivity out of the final purchaser agreement/ advertisement, slipping it in under the noses of those who purchased the CO LTS . Doing so in this manner kept everyone calm.
I have drawn this conclusion based on the facts I have investigated and submitted to evidence for all to see.
This opinion summarizes all the known facts and tell the story of what they mean in context to this offer.
I agree that more information is better than less, The facts presented by all strongly support my case. I will agree at bare minimum that the information due to poor launch communication may need to be followed up with the community. The information as it currently stands decisively supports my conclusion. I will further say that their is missing information, and that is in what offer or by what means will the MU uniforms be available again?
It is my opinion that Cryptic realized they had made a mistake offering the MU uniforms with the CO LTS based off of the STO forums prelaunch initial advertisement offer that received Very Strong NEGATIVE Feed back, Then Cryptic Changed the offer before it went live to appease the STO forum people, by removing the exclusivity from the advertisement, and then felt they could not make everyone happy, so then they answered everyone in vague manner, so that the STO people were happy with the Non Exclusivity change, and soft/ vague enough that the CO people would not burst into flames with anger. To further appease the CO people came out and said we do not know when the uniforms will be available again. Vague in this matter would be creating a loophole for non exclusivity, and not coming out and saying in bold letters we changed the exclusivity status prior to launch, they silently just removed it from the offer. Thus taking the exclusivity out of the final purchaser agreement/ advertisement, slipping it in under the noses of those who purchased the CO LTS . Doing so in this manner kept everyone calm.
I have drawn this conclusion based on the facts I have investigated and submitted to evidence for all to see.
This opinion summarizes all the known facts and tell the story of what they mean in context to this offer.
It is well stated, and well founded, yes. A valid interpretation of the clues, despite the lack of an actual concrete statement. Lets call it a "circumstantially supported theory." I have a different interpretation, based on the same exact evidence, but including the lack of concrete evidence: That while brought into question and reviewed, the matter remains unsettled, not decided. That removing a phrase does not only indicate the opposing idea is now true, and that the final decision simply was never met. I feel both interpretations are valid - that the policy was reversed, and that the policy underwent review (and all wording was altered to reflect the policy was in question).
Show me the decision itself, and I'll concede. The only decision so far in all this has, obviously, been to change the wording of the offer, repeatedly, and to state that the future status is unknown.
Sounds to me like backpedaling and spin, but not policy.
Now, please take note, while I have my hopes on how this will turn out, I am continually debunking any decisive community statements specifically to call out the need for a decisive team statement. I want to know what they decided, in their words, on this forum. Not omission of a word, not "tbd" and not confusing things with new words. Back and white, simple statement defining the policy once and for all, and extending it to all "exclusive" rewards (to settle other debates).
Lets face it, the Schroeder's Cat experiment ultimately always ends with a dead cat if the box is never opened. The cause of death becomes the difference, assuming a limited supply of food is in the box. While a strange analogy, I think they expected the matter to be put to rest the same way - the matter would die down if they never reveal the result, eventually it would be a dead issue. Seems this time, they were wrong.
Careful! "Unique" has no significance as a word! Something that is "unique" is clearly still able to be commonplace, by the interpretations of this forum.
At any rate, you know it would have been Defender... and then wed get nothing but "WE HAVE TO BLOW UP **ALL** THESE KLINGON SHIPS!!! THEY'RE WHATS CAUSING THE KLINGONS TO ATTACK!!!" every time we load into a kill 6 patrols or deep space encounter mission.
Or worse, Foxbat for the Klingons... That away team encounter wouldn't end well.
Comments
Daeke
Online Community Team
Join Date: Apr 2009
Limited-Time Subscription Deals!
We're very excited to announce two special subscription packages available for purchase for a limited-time! Both of these offers are only going to be around until supplies last, so sign up while you still can. Below are the details for both the lifetime and 6-month subscription packages.
Lifetime subscriptions include:
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Exclusive Retro Future costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions come with:
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Have either of these caught your eye?
I respectfully disagree, all features with exception to the MU uniforms were active in game Champions rewards for lifetime subscribers the MU were bonus toward STO. They were not redeemable in Champions therefore they were a future out of game bonus towards STO. (CHECKMATE)
and this :
I copied and pasted it from the Champions site......"Unique" Is the operative word!!, NOT EXCLUSIVE!!!!
MY POINT EXACTLY!!! Thank you for your brilliant powers of observation, thus being a bonus and not an in game exclusive...
Checkmate.
Buuuut I looked here on the STO forums and found the following:
Note the bit in red there.
So yeah..... Exclusive and Unique really don't mean anything at all....
I am sorry none of the links you provided take me anywhere to see factual documentation of this as a fact, and my information was pulled in its entirety from the Champions Online post for this offer. I would further submit you should of checked the fine print on the offer or Cryptic changed their minds about exclusivity, because It does not reflect your position in black and white. That is the equivalent of hear say and would not be considered admissible, entertaining, but not admissible as evidence.
The Terms of service were only stated on the Champions site as the point of purchase site, any and all commentary that is not spelled out can be chalked up to a slip of the tongue at best, That never was confirmed in the end user purchasing agreement (meaning the Champions Life Time Feature page). So I would say if that was the case, It still did not make it in the final deal, as it may or may not of been commented upon. I will go on to say some of the visions/ commentary of what STO was to become upon their announcement never made it into the end user content/purchase agreement.
On a side note this is the strongest counter point I have heard thus far and I thank you for making it. Unfortunately all the other advertisements are consistent in the same( Meaning their visual attributes and type) way(STO DDE) and PROVE EXCLUSIVE ARE called just that, and Unique items are unique to type and not exclusivity.
I refer you to the four ways in previous posts we were able to prove that to be fact by the preponderance of evidence(or beyond a reasonable doubt) I do thank you for your point of view, but the overwhelming opposition of documented facts (end user purchase agreement on CO features page) would NOT sway the facts to your counter point even if the commentary were to be true. At that point it would be considered a loophole probably designed into the offer. Furthermore as someone pointed out that the Champions Life time offer was unexpectedly canceled (documented by Cryptic on the CO thread) that it would be both reasonable and prudent that the uniforms would likely be offered in a different way, I agree and will add that it is good business not withhold and Iconic piece of the Star Trek Universe such as the MU Uniforms. Once again I thank you for your counter point, and I bid you good day sir
I agree, with this provided the subscriber has been with this title as long as Lifetime Subscription purchase ($299.) to begin receiving these as Veteran Unlocks Reward. The PreLaunch Lifetime Investors these things should be made available instantly, and for newer Lifetime Subscribers, Long term Subscribers and Mothly on a Veterans Reward system. This sounds very reasonable to me.
No what I'm saying is that the only way to disprove what you're claiming is to restart the arguements that caused the other thread to be locked. You should have stuck to the topic matter of this thread, but you couldn't resist trying to get the final word in for the locked thread.
Your opinions are still that: Opinions, no matter what you might think. Until Someone from Cryptic says otherwise.
I don't disagree. Which is why I've been in favor of a 400-500 day vet reward for those who didn't get it directly via the Champions Lifetime offer. That is roughly the point the LT investment is covered. So that we knew back then the alternate method to get the uniform, there would be a reasonable chance we would have picked the same route we did.
Can we please just drop it?
Cryptic can do anything they want with any of these promo items. If they want to release it, they can!
I started this thread just to say that, when that day comes, I will be a sad panda.
STO Forum initial Advertisement below
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=24059
Rekhan went on further to say to check the Champions posting for details and that This is a new market for us, and these decisions will be made as we take more cues from the market. ( They removed all reference to exclusive from the purchaser agreement/advertisement when the offer went LIVE on Champions)
Posted the following on the Champions News page:
http://www.champions-online.com/node/112696
Aug
4
2009
Champions Online Pricing
Posted by Daeke
Atari and Cryptic Studios are happy to announce the final pricing and subscription programs for Champions Online!
Retail Pricing:
$49.99 USD, $54.99 CAN, 49.99 EUR, and £29.99 GBP
Regular Monthly Subscription:
$14.99 USD, $16.49 CAN, 12.99 EUR, and £8.99 GBP
We are also offering two exclusive subscription packages, available only until September 1st.
6-Month Discounted Subscriptions: (REMOVED any usage of word EXCLUSIVE relating to the MU Uniforms OFFER)
* Price: $59.99 USD, $65.99 CAN, 44.99 EUR, and £35.99 GBP
* Saves $29.95 USD (33% off!) over regular monthly subscription!
* Retro Future costume set
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
Lifetime Subscriptions:
* Price: $199.99 USD, $219.99 CAN, 147.99 EUR, and £119.99 GBP
* Access to the Star Trek Online Closed Beta, beginning later this year!
* Exclusive Art Deco costume set, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Retro Future costume set
* Unique Mirror Universe outfit for Star Trek Online, available at the games release
* Exclusive in-game Foxbat action figure, available only to lifetime subscribers
* Eight additional character slots!
Below is the forum link page
CRYPTIC responses in Yellow
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=630066
This was the Cryptic response to the out cry: Champions Online Special Offer thread on STO Forum pg 50,51.54,55,65
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=24059
I am tired of this endless interpretation of the slimmest sliver of hints and "facts" being manufactured from the absence of an actual statement, rather than the presence of one.
I don't care how many colors you post in, or how many times you make the same assertions, all arguments for and against this are nothing more than leaps of logic hinging on the interpretation of a SINGLE word or its absence, which sadly can prove nothing at all when one considers the source material's omissions could be anything fro a typo to an actual policy.
Phoxe, kindly give the team an in-person facepalm from me for the silence on this issue.
I have my opinion, and my heartfelt desire for how this should play out, based solely on the idea and ideals of why some rewards should remain exclusive. Others have their heart and considerable time sunk into their opinion that they have "proof" with little more actual evidence than can be found in any high-profile conspiracy theory.
1) PLEASE curtail the announcement by community members they have "proof" when they clearly only have conviction. (this applies to both sides of the argument)
2) PLEASE end this continuing squabble with specific policy and intent from the team regarding MU exclusivity, and its possible expiration of exclusivity, without resorting to openly interpretable phrases like "may change" and "for now" but clearly define and state the Cryptic policy for ALL STO exclusive rewards.
By doing the above you will concrete two things - whether or not it is worth actually taking a leap of faith in any rewarded activity or offer Cryptic provides, and of course settle once and for all the bickering and debate so we can get back to working together on constructive discussions about meaningful content, rather than teeth grinding fanaticism over vanity and the value of reward, loyalty, and effort.
The community initially complained and Cryptic responded by removing exclusivity in the offer. " Default Champions Online Pricing Atari and Cryptic Studios are happy to announce the final pricing and subscription programs for Champions Online!") This is not rocket science, It is basic reading comprehension.
That actually makes it more confusing. You also seem to be omitting things, as I easily found links to news pieces which are dated after several of your links. What is the date of the "unsure" post?
http://www.champions-online.com/node/172998
This is August 20th, 2009. AFTER all your quotes but the last unquoted dev post in the last thread you quoted.
So, while on the forums there was debate not 15 days after your "not sure," we see official news stating "unique" which is of course open to interpretation, just like any other argument we could muster without official weigh-in.
"Unique" seems to signify, well... UNIQUE. Which is in all honesty not exclusive, per se, but suggestive that the specific version be limited/unique - which I tent to interpret as "we have x, but you have not x but similar"
At any rate, none of this matters unless and until there is official clarification.
... you are quoting items 9+ months old which ended in "we don't know"
I am calling out a gold post on this matter now because obviously, there is room for clarification.
PS- what was the date of the "final pricing" thing? I'm scrolling up for that, but it would be a timesaver to snag that link... maybe I just skimmed past it.
Edit- found it. did skim past. August 4th. So, despite the omission on the 4th, 16 days later on the 20th, its "Unique" in the same source's news site. Apparently, it is rocket science then.
Please find something more recent than 8/20/2009 which either omits or outright denies exclusivity. "Unique" is debatable, and I concede it is not definitive, but I also firmly stand against this matter being closed unless and until the policy is defined in clear words by the team, here and now.
I think you might have skimmed past all the links are directly above the Cryptic Response. It is in the 2nd and 3rd gold Champion offers. The offer ended on September 1, 2009 the post shows valid from 8/4 until the end of August.
And the statement of the items being "Unique" occurs 16 days later on the 20th.
This is all really simple to end if someone would step up from the team and end it.
I'll even accept "we still haven't decided, 9 months later"
Can we at least agree that the evidence is not clear, and our interpretations of it, despite being opposed, are both based on insufficient information?
A whole load of us(including me) are definatley willing to "pay" for the MU uniforms for a reasonable price.
That said, I do feel *deserving* of reward, which is of course a view of myself, and takes into consideration my actions alone. Were this some kind of competitive thing, where in I *competed* against others to be judged verses their abilities and as such found or not found to have superior ability, then yes I suppose an air of superiority would be difficult to avoid. But seeing as my actions were not in any competitive forum, I fail to see how anyone could honestly examine the circumstances and conclude anything about my personality from them without drawing into question their own motives and flaws.
Addendum: Based on your statement and the color of your name, I presume then you are among the LTS holders seeking to have Borg captain races given to anyone? You have no issue with TCT, LB, "Career Officer" and your other perks becoming commonplace?
As explained earlier the fuss isn't about feeling superior. Its about having to pay hundreds to get something that becomes available for a few dollars less than a month later. Simple as that.
Any alternate method of getting them past the 400 day mark is fine with me. Vet reward just makes the most sense at that point.
As long as things like the MU uniforms remain non-obtainable then no, i do not want to see anyone else get the original LTS perks etc.
However if the MU Uniforms were to become obtainable then yes, i would not mind others being able to attain the Liberated Borg etc.
I did not mean that you specificly had a superiority complex, but unfortunatley i have had some bad experiences with some MU owners that have been all high and mighty and actually been trolling and flamebaiting(and been Banned for it).
So yeah, nothing personal there.
That would suggest that the MU uniform was worth hundreds of dollars, which it clearly was not since those hundreds of dollars were for a whole package of things including a lifetime subscribtion which alone would be worth even more hundreds of dollars.
Cryptics desicion to make customers buy a CO lifetime for the MU's was/is a very poor decision. Anyone, who knows anything about Star Trek could see the trouble coming the second the idea was conceived. It alienated the Star Trek fans to make something so important in Star Trek lore available by investing over $200 in another game.
It was/is unfair to those that felt they had to spend the money to get the Uniforms, but had no interesst in a lifetime CO sub. It is unfair to the paying customer Cryptic has in STO.
The best thing Cryptic could do is to offer anyone who has a STO sub a full rebate on their CO lifetime subs that had the MU's in them. Then the Mu's should be made available for a moderate amount of Cryptic points in the C-Store.
MU's for a lifetime sub in another game... whats next?
If peoples sole motivation for buying the CO LTS was the MU uniform then thats their problem.
The value of the CO LTS alone like i greater than the price paid, hence no rebate would be in order.
That would suggest that CO's lifetime offer was worth it on its own merits at the time it was offered. And it wasn't. Whether you like it or not, they did use the MU uniforms and the guaranteed beta access to sell it.
Because of this, a Vet reward is fair. Note I'm not saying a vet reward in CO, but a Vet reward in STO. That would honor at least the spirit of the offer, while still allowing an alternate method of obtaining them.
The MU & Beta Access was added to the CO LTS to increase the LTS's value to CO players.
To interpret that as being targeted at STO players seems a bit strange to me, as there are likely a very small number willing and able to drop $200 just to get a single top, belt, and badge. That was the INTENTION, at any rate. I think it would be amusing to hear what people think should have been used instead to set apart CO LTSers in STO.
My CO LTS is now underutilized, to be sure, but only because that game has failed to retain my interests. It is a sad commentary on the times to see so many assume anyone with a CO LTS who plays STO got that LTS just for the STO perks. I suppose ti is because many of them were willing to do so, but not able?
What ever happened to sour grapes? these days, the fox thinks the grapes have a superiority complex and should be cut down???
I disagree, slightly. I still maintain like you that alternate means to obtaining Mirror Universe uniforms become available, but I continue to insist that the uniqueness of the particular CO LTS uniform be maintained.
That said, I think the Kirk MU from TOS would be just fine as a 400+ day vet reward, but the Spock MU from TOS we have as CO LTS should not.
Unfortunately, I believe CO has determined that the CO LTS costume pieces for CO will become vet rewards in CO... then again I have that information second hand. (Correction, there appears to be 2 costumes from this, one "exclusive" and not vet reward material, another "limited" and there is debate on that coming to a future vet system)
Well, those that truly want a CO LTS would not request a refund when offered.
This is the crux of the matter. Cryptic made a very poor choice in offering the MU on the CO LTS. I have posted it before and will post again that the MU is a very important part of Star Trek lore. Making them available only to those willing to shell out $200 for another game was a very, very bad move that had trouble written all over it.
Beta access and a borg tribble or unique CO themed BO would have been more fitting.
I agree that more information is better than less, The facts presented by all strongly support my case. I will agree at bare minimum that the information due to poor launch communication may need to be followed up with the community. The information as it currently stands decisively supports my conclusion. I will further say that their is missing information, and that is in what offer or by what means will the MU uniforms be available again?
It is my opinion that Cryptic realized they had made a mistake offering the MU uniforms with the CO LTS based off of the STO forums prelaunch initial advertisement offer that received Very Strong NEGATIVE Feed back, Then Cryptic Changed the offer before it went live to appease the STO forum people, by removing the exclusivity from the advertisement, and then felt they could not make everyone happy, so then they answered everyone in vague manner, so that the STO people were happy with the Non Exclusivity change, and soft/ vague enough that the CO people would not burst into flames with anger. To further appease the CO people came out and said we do not know when the uniforms will be available again.
Vague in this matter would be creating a loophole for non exclusivity, and not coming out and saying in bold letters we changed the exclusivity status prior to launch, they silently just removed it from the offer. Thus taking the exclusivity out of the final purchaser agreement/ advertisement, slipping it in under the noses of those who purchased the CO LTS . Doing so in this manner kept everyone calm.
I have drawn this conclusion based on the facts I have investigated and submitted to evidence for all to see.
This opinion summarizes all the known facts and tell the story of what they mean in context to this offer.
It is well stated, and well founded, yes. A valid interpretation of the clues, despite the lack of an actual concrete statement. Lets call it a "circumstantially supported theory." I have a different interpretation, based on the same exact evidence, but including the lack of concrete evidence: That while brought into question and reviewed, the matter remains unsettled, not decided. That removing a phrase does not only indicate the opposing idea is now true, and that the final decision simply was never met. I feel both interpretations are valid - that the policy was reversed, and that the policy underwent review (and all wording was altered to reflect the policy was in question).
Show me the decision itself, and I'll concede. The only decision so far in all this has, obviously, been to change the wording of the offer, repeatedly, and to state that the future status is unknown.
Sounds to me like backpedaling and spin, but not policy.
Now, please take note, while I have my hopes on how this will turn out, I am continually debunking any decisive community statements specifically to call out the need for a decisive team statement. I want to know what they decided, in their words, on this forum. Not omission of a word, not "tbd" and not confusing things with new words. Back and white, simple statement defining the policy once and for all, and extending it to all "exclusive" rewards (to settle other debates).
Lets face it, the Schroeder's Cat experiment ultimately always ends with a dead cat if the box is never opened. The cause of death becomes the difference, assuming a limited supply of food is in the box. While a strange analogy, I think they expected the matter to be put to rest the same way - the matter would die down if they never reveal the result, eventually it would be a dead issue. Seems this time, they were wrong.
Careful! "Unique" has no significance as a word! Something that is "unique" is clearly still able to be commonplace, by the interpretations of this forum.
At any rate, you know it would have been Defender... and then wed get nothing but "WE HAVE TO BLOW UP **ALL** THESE KLINGON SHIPS!!! THEY'RE WHATS CAUSING THE KLINGONS TO ATTACK!!!" every time we load into a kill 6 patrols or deep space encounter mission.
Or worse, Foxbat for the Klingons... That away team encounter wouldn't end well.