What's the DP in Mass Effect (1 or 2)? Borderlands? Warhammer Online?
In ME 1&2 there were plenty of encounters that you could not save in the middle of, forcing you back to the beginning of the encounter if you die, with all enemies reset. Never played Borderlands or Warhammer, couldn't comment on those.
listening to Jack's interview he really does get it. The original MMO's that had harsh DP had it for one reason, to make people progress slowly so they would have to keep playing longer. THOSE MMO companies could truly be called 'greedy". Strange how people find this game easy enough to play that they can do so for a short time and choose to leave or stay, and yet they call Cryptic "greedy" for their design.
So you get that Jack's impression is that DP's are a gimmick to get players to play longer. Well shame on anyone for making games that people would want to play for a long time! We should want to play their game longer! This is an MMO, we shouldn't just play this game and be done with it! This isn't Assassin's Creed where you play the game and get to an end where you're done (ACII has a WoW-like gear durability DP btw...)! Surely, there's no reason anyone should want to play a game that's any more engrossing than a Word Jumble! What were they thinking? Congratulations to Jack for making games that I can spend as little time on as possible! A subscription based game that I don't need to spend more than one month's subscription for! Absolutely brilliant!
His idea that "Why can't a game just be fun enough that people want to play?" is doubly shot when you look at the miniscule content Cryptic games launch with. Sure eventually they get some decent content, but by the time they do, most people have already quit out of sheer boredom and have already gotten a bad impression of the game and won't want to return. Games can be fun, but MMO's also need depth. You WANT people to be coming back. You WANT people to never leave.
The Star Trek license is only going to carry this game so far. You need something to keep you tethered into this world, something to keep you involved. Something to keep you interested in playing the game, and improving yourself. A DP won't solve this alone, but it will be a big step. An "option" of having it or not having it will likely end up separating the universe of the game. In an MMO, you want as many people to be in the same reality as possible. A shared experience.
How would a DP foster teamwork in a PUG? I don't think a DP would have any bearing on that.
Well I mean it may. If you keep letting that zerging tactical in an escort die a few times without throwing him a heal and there is some kind of reason why he wants that heal (i.e. DP) then it would make him work with the group wouldnt it?
Thats how you teach people in lotro and ddo. I refuse to heal stupid.
Chances are, when it's rolled out, people wanting a DP will not be happy about what they get, because it's going to be lame in comparison to most other DP's.
Yep, by their track record they won't be creating elaborate DP mechanics. It will be very simplistic. And it's another reason to reward having DP enabled.
Depends on which "WE" we are talking about. Is this the We that thinks it will stop zerging? Is this the WE that likes a challenge so they want a DP? Is this the WE who wants a time or money sink? Which We are we talking about?
Don't forget the WE that want's to foster teamwork in a random PUG somehow.
Guess we was the wrong word to use. Sorry guys. And to answer your question: yes, I want a death penalty for all the reasons mentioned.
I dont mean to get in the way of your argument here but you are wrong my friend. Ive been in FPS clans since UT99 and i still play it once in awile but ive played everything from BF1942 to UT3 and they dont have DPs. Just like STO you die respawn and get back into the fight when you die you dont loose your weapon permentally or get damaged in some way. The only thing Death effects in any of those games is your or your teams score. So please dont say ALL games have a DPs cause they dont.
Guess we was the wrong word to use. Sorry guys. And to answer your question: yes, I want a death penalty for all the reasons mentioned.
LOL Ya, I wasn't sure which WE you were talking about.;)
The challenge I can understand. Everyone plays a game for different reasons.
The time sink or money sink can be done in other ways with out a DP but hey, to each their own right?
The thing is, DP won't stop zerging and it won't stop player griefing and I can't possibly see how it would foster team work. Do you think player will heal other players more because of a DP?
I dont mean to get in the way of your argument here but you are wrong my friend. Ive been in FPS clans since UT99 and i still play it once in awile but ive played everything from BF1942 to UT3 and they dont have DPs. Just like STO you die respawn and get back into the fight when you die you dont loose your weapon permentally or get damaged in some way. The only thing Death effects in any of those games is your or your teams score. So please dont say ALL games have a DPs cause they dont.
Guess we was the wrong word to use. Sorry guys. And to answer your question: yes, I want a death penalty for all the reasons mentioned.
And, here's the problem: STO is a casual game, and any DP you could expect Cryptic to implement wouldn't help foster any of that, nor would any DP you could expect other developers to implement, either, because this is a casual game, no matter how hardcore you want it to be.
I dont mean to get in the way of your argument here but you are wrong my friend. Ive been in FPS clans since UT99 and i still play it once in awile but ive played everything from BF1942 to UT3 and they dont have DPs. Just like STO you die respawn and get back into the fight when you die you dont loose your weapon permentally or get damaged in some way. The only thing Death effects in any of those games is your or your teams score. So please dont say ALL games have a DPs cause they dont.
The NPCs are already as weak as could be. What it really does is gives people a reason NOT to die, and try and keep each other alive. If you want to play solo without a DP, go for it. I could care less.
I'm talking under the assumption of the coming difficulty slider (and yes, most NPCs before the Borg are annoyingly easymode right now and even the Borg aren't great shakes).
Weren't we just agreeing that encounter resets are appropriate? That provides incentive for teamwork in relation to how difficult content is without punishing soloists or groups for choosing to take on encounters that they aren't guaranteed to steamroll.
Do you think player will heal other players more because of a DP?
Yes I do. I have no real evidence other than the many other games I've played with death penalty's that actually have healers. Maybe the only reason nobody plays in a team in STO is because the content is just too easy? Thats possible too, I don't have all the answers.
Well I mean it may. If you keep letting that zerging tactical in an escort die a few times without throwing him a heal and there is some kind of reason why he wants that heal (i.e. DP) then it would make him work with the group wouldnt it?
Thats how you teach people in lotro and ddo. I refuse to heal stupid.
You would like to think that but no it doesn't. The player may be having a bad day and doesn't care etc. DP won't foster teamwork.
Heh do you really want to go here? Last I hear Warhammer is on life support closing servers left and right.
There is little to suggest that they have any less than the 300,000 subscribers they had when they announced the large scale closure of servers to consolidate the population a year ago.
EA announced those server closures in the same breath as announcing that they had lost over a billion dollars for that year. It's not a coincidence. While Warhammer Online may not be a WoW juggernaut, it's far from dead or dying. That may not mean much to EA though, if they're so far down s*** creek they can't afford to maintain anything that isn't easy money, like pooping out another round of sports games for the year, that sort of thing.
Yes I do. I have no real evidence other than the many other games I've played with death penalty's that actually have healers. Maybe the only reason nobody plays in a team in STO is because the content is just too easy? Thats possible too, I don't have all the answers.
I understand. I just disagree that it will foster teamwork. I get heals now when I am in places where there are groups like defend missions etc. You can't force people to cooperate if they refuse to do so.
There is little to suggest that they have any less than the 300,000 subscribers they had when they announced the large scale closure of servers to consolidate the population a year ago.
EA announced those server closures in the same breath as announcing that they had lost over a billion dollars for that year. It's not a coincidence. While Warhammer Online may not be a WoW juggernaut, it's far from dead or dying. That may not mean much to EA though, if they're so far down s*** creek they can't afford to maintain anything that isn't easy money, like pooping out another round of sports games for the year, that sort of thing.
Well I dont know about all that I just know someone who plays it. They are looking for a new game due to low populations Im trying to recruit them to my kinship in lord of the rings actually.
The score in many of those games which is based on KDR is mainly for bragging rites most have objectives to hold or flags to take home. In many cases and i do have screen shots of old CTF clan matches that show higher KDR scores for the loosing team so it not a DP. Even in a Death match game the winner can often have way more deaths then the loosers
Wow, I'm not reading 70 pages, so could someone tell me what the consensus is? I've never cared much about the DP, but even I think optional is a dumb solution. Can anyone please summarize this thread?
Yes I do. I have no real evidence other than the many other games I've played with death penalty's that actually have healers. Maybe the only reason nobody plays in a team in STO is because the content is just too easy? Thats possible too, I don't have all the answers.
Well, the game scales encounters so it pretty much stays too easy, but you can faceroll enemy starship groups even faster than you can solo with a support ship or two letting the damage dealers just focus on vomiting DPS.
I understand. I just disagree that it will foster teamwork. I get heals now when I am in places where there are groups like defend missions etc. You can't force people to cooperate if they refuse to do so.
They'll cooperate if they have no other way of defeating the mission . Of course I'm talking solely of team play here, if they want to turn off open teaming and play with no DP, by all means.
I disagree I think if the DP was done properly it would make people work together just like it does in every other game I play.
Explain? It doesn't make anyone work together. This isn't a game where the difficulty is high enough to warrant large amounts of cooperation. Even after the difficulty sliders and an optional DP it won't make anyone do anything.
Wow, I'm not reading 70 pages, so could someone tell me what the consensus is? I've never cared much about the DP, but even I think optional is a dumb solution. Can anyone please summarize this thread?
The only consensus is that everyone else is wrong.
You would like to think that but no it doesn't. The player may be having a bad day and doesn't care etc. DP won't foster teamwork.
I get heals now and we don't have a DP.
Yup so do I. I heal too. If you're grouped with people you care about, you make the effort to succeed. And help them succeed. DP has little to do with that. Most People dont purposely play to die even without a DP.
What deaths there have been while I was grouped were rarely attributed to bad gameplay. But often attributed to things beyond player control. Bugs, disconnects, Zoning directly into hostile mobs while trying to read the mission briefing that popped up in your face, etc.
So you get that Jack's impression is that DP's are a gimmick to get players to play longer. Well shame on anyone for making games that people would want to play for a long time! We should want to play their game longer! This is an MMO, we shouldn't just play this game and be done with it! This isn't Assassin's Creed where you play the game and get to an end where you're done (ACII has a WoW-like gear durability DP btw...)! Surely, there's no reason anyone should want to play a game that's any more engrossing than a Word Jumble! What were they thinking? Congratulations to Jack for making games that I can spend as little time on as possible! A subscription based game that I don't need to spend more than one month's subscription for! Absolutely brilliant!
His idea that "Why can't a game just be fun enough that people want to play?" is doubly shot when you look at the miniscule content Cryptic games launch with. Sure eventually they get some decent content, but by the time they do, most people have already quit out of sheer boredom and have already gotten a bad impression of the game and won't want to return. Games can be fun, but MMO's also need depth. You WANT people to be coming back. You WANT people to never leave.
The Star Trek license is only going to carry this game so far. You need something to keep you tethered into this world, something to keep you involved. Something to keep you interested in playing the game, and improving yourself. A DP won't solve this alone, but it will be a big step. An "option" of having it or not having it will likely end up separating the universe of the game. In an MMO, you want as many people to be in the same reality as possible. A shared experience.
You're right. More games should be like EVE Online... where I don't even have to log in to progress my character and the DP is irrelevant so long as I purchase enough RMT.
So you get that Jack's impression is that DP's are a gimmick to get players to play longer. Well shame on anyone for making games that people would want to play for a long time! We should want to play their game longer! This is an MMO, we shouldn't just play this game and be done with it! This isn't Assassin's Creed where you play the game and get to an end where you're done (ACII has a WoW-like gear durability DP btw...)! Surely, there's no reason anyone should want to play a game that's any more engrossing than a Word Jumble! What were they thinking? Congratulations to Jack for making games that I can spend as little time on as possible! A subscription based game that I don't need to spend more than one month's subscription for! Absolutely brilliant!
His idea that "Why can't a game just be fun enough that people want to play?" is doubly shot when you look at the miniscule content Cryptic games launch with. Sure eventually they get some decent content, but by the time they do, most people have already quit out of sheer boredom and have already gotten a bad impression of the game and won't want to return. Games can be fun, but MMO's also need depth. You WANT people to be coming back. You WANT people to never leave.
The Star Trek license is only going to carry this game so far. You need something to keep you tethered into this world, something to keep you involved. Something to keep you interested in playing the game, and improving yourself. A DP won't solve this alone, but it will be a big step. An "option" of having it or not having it will likely end up separating the universe of the game. In an MMO, you want as many people to be in the same reality as possible. A shared experience.
Time sinks like DP's and the beloved 45 minute corpse run aren't a substitue for content. They're a hamhanded means of attempting to keep people from noticing a lack of content.
STO needs more content, sure. I'd like to see literally twice the story lines and arcs at every level, as well as a fully fleshed out Klingon PvE world. But installing a DP isn't going to do jack diddleeyo to provide that content. Annoying people doesn't keep them in a game. Look at the way people flocked from EQ to WoW, and how they rejoiced at the lack of corpse runs, and *relatively* short travel times.
You would like to think that but no it doesn't. The player may be having a bad day and doesn't care etc. DP won't foster teamwork.
I get heals now and we don't have a DP.
I find these arguments a bit non-responsive. You can always make the claim that at the extremes there will still be individuals that continue to zerg through encounters. DP proponents never claimed that every last person in the game will cease zerging if a DP is implemented. Even if the DP was perma character deletion this argument of "that player may just be having a bad day" or "that player just doesnt care" could still be made. The point is that a DP encourages teamwork and less zerging, not that 100% of players will choose to stop. Its all about creation of incentives to foster cooperation and tactics in most situations.
Comments
How would a DP foster teamwork in a PUG? I don't think a DP would have any bearing on that.
In ME 1&2 there were plenty of encounters that you could not save in the middle of, forcing you back to the beginning of the encounter if you die, with all enemies reset. Never played Borderlands or Warhammer, couldn't comment on those.
So you get that Jack's impression is that DP's are a gimmick to get players to play longer. Well shame on anyone for making games that people would want to play for a long time! We should want to play their game longer! This is an MMO, we shouldn't just play this game and be done with it! This isn't Assassin's Creed where you play the game and get to an end where you're done (ACII has a WoW-like gear durability DP btw...)! Surely, there's no reason anyone should want to play a game that's any more engrossing than a Word Jumble! What were they thinking? Congratulations to Jack for making games that I can spend as little time on as possible! A subscription based game that I don't need to spend more than one month's subscription for! Absolutely brilliant!
His idea that "Why can't a game just be fun enough that people want to play?" is doubly shot when you look at the miniscule content Cryptic games launch with. Sure eventually they get some decent content, but by the time they do, most people have already quit out of sheer boredom and have already gotten a bad impression of the game and won't want to return. Games can be fun, but MMO's also need depth. You WANT people to be coming back. You WANT people to never leave.
The Star Trek license is only going to carry this game so far. You need something to keep you tethered into this world, something to keep you involved. Something to keep you interested in playing the game, and improving yourself. A DP won't solve this alone, but it will be a big step. An "option" of having it or not having it will likely end up separating the universe of the game. In an MMO, you want as many people to be in the same reality as possible. A shared experience.
Well I mean it may. If you keep letting that zerging tactical in an escort die a few times without throwing him a heal and there is some kind of reason why he wants that heal (i.e. DP) then it would make him work with the group wouldnt it?
Thats how you teach people in lotro and ddo. I refuse to heal stupid.
That's an argument that's been used in support of a DP. I just tossed it out there because it wasn't in your list.
I also don't see how it would foster teamwork, but it was used.
Yep, by their track record they won't be creating elaborate DP mechanics. It will be very simplistic. And it's another reason to reward having DP enabled.
Guess we was the wrong word to use. Sorry guys. And to answer your question: yes, I want a death penalty for all the reasons mentioned.
I could see your point of view till I got to this part right here.
I dont mean to get in the way of your argument here but you are wrong my friend. Ive been in FPS clans since UT99 and i still play it once in awile but ive played everything from BF1942 to UT3 and they dont have DPs. Just like STO you die respawn and get back into the fight when you die you dont loose your weapon permentally or get damaged in some way. The only thing Death effects in any of those games is your or your teams score. So please dont say ALL games have a DPs cause they dont.
LOL Ya, I wasn't sure which WE you were talking about.;)
The challenge I can understand. Everyone plays a game for different reasons.
The time sink or money sink can be done in other ways with out a DP but hey, to each their own right?
The thing is, DP won't stop zerging and it won't stop player griefing and I can't possibly see how it would foster team work. Do you think player will heal other players more because of a DP?
Ah, but they do. Your teams score.
And, here's the problem: STO is a casual game, and any DP you could expect Cryptic to implement wouldn't help foster any of that, nor would any DP you could expect other developers to implement, either, because this is a casual game, no matter how hardcore you want it to be.
This is a good point. I forgot about FPS
I'm talking under the assumption of the coming difficulty slider (and yes, most NPCs before the Borg are annoyingly easymode right now and even the Borg aren't great shakes).
Weren't we just agreeing that encounter resets are appropriate? That provides incentive for teamwork in relation to how difficult content is without punishing soloists or groups for choosing to take on encounters that they aren't guaranteed to steamroll.
Yes I do. I have no real evidence other than the many other games I've played with death penalty's that actually have healers. Maybe the only reason nobody plays in a team in STO is because the content is just too easy? Thats possible too, I don't have all the answers.
You would like to think that but no it doesn't. The player may be having a bad day and doesn't care etc. DP won't foster teamwork.
I get heals now and we don't have a DP.
I disagree I think if the DP was done properly it would make people work together just like it does in every other game I play.
There is little to suggest that they have any less than the 300,000 subscribers they had when they announced the large scale closure of servers to consolidate the population a year ago.
EA announced those server closures in the same breath as announcing that they had lost over a billion dollars for that year. It's not a coincidence. While Warhammer Online may not be a WoW juggernaut, it's far from dead or dying. That may not mean much to EA though, if they're so far down s*** creek they can't afford to maintain anything that isn't easy money, like pooping out another round of sports games for the year, that sort of thing.
I understand. I just disagree that it will foster teamwork. I get heals now when I am in places where there are groups like defend missions etc. You can't force people to cooperate if they refuse to do so.
Well I dont know about all that I just know someone who plays it. They are looking for a new game due to low populations Im trying to recruit them to my kinship in lord of the rings actually.
Well, the game scales encounters so it pretty much stays too easy, but you can faceroll enemy starship groups even faster than you can solo with a support ship or two letting the damage dealers just focus on vomiting DPS.
They'll cooperate if they have no other way of defeating the mission
Explain? It doesn't make anyone work together. This isn't a game where the difficulty is high enough to warrant large amounts of cooperation. Even after the difficulty sliders and an optional DP it won't make anyone do anything.
The only consensus is that everyone else is wrong.
Yup so do I. I heal too. If you're grouped with people you care about, you make the effort to succeed. And help them succeed. DP has little to do with that. Most People dont purposely play to die even without a DP.
What deaths there have been while I was grouped were rarely attributed to bad gameplay. But often attributed to things beyond player control. Bugs, disconnects, Zoning directly into hostile mobs while trying to read the mission briefing that popped up in your face, etc.
You're right. More games should be like EVE Online... where I don't even have to log in to progress my character and the DP is irrelevant so long as I purchase enough RMT.
Time sinks like DP's and the beloved 45 minute corpse run aren't a substitue for content. They're a hamhanded means of attempting to keep people from noticing a lack of content.
STO needs more content, sure. I'd like to see literally twice the story lines and arcs at every level, as well as a fully fleshed out Klingon PvE world. But installing a DP isn't going to do jack diddleeyo to provide that content. Annoying people doesn't keep them in a game. Look at the way people flocked from EQ to WoW, and how they rejoiced at the lack of corpse runs, and *relatively* short travel times.
I find these arguments a bit non-responsive. You can always make the claim that at the extremes there will still be individuals that continue to zerg through encounters. DP proponents never claimed that every last person in the game will cease zerging if a DP is implemented. Even if the DP was perma character deletion this argument of "that player may just be having a bad day" or "that player just doesnt care" could still be made. The point is that a DP encourages teamwork and less zerging, not that 100% of players will choose to stop. Its all about creation of incentives to foster cooperation and tactics in most situations.