People can say what they want about "catering to the hardcore," but I'm not buying it. 45+ levels of nothing but the most casual of content, and now we have one - 1, singular, uno - mission that requires tactics, skills, and teamwork, and even then is still somewhat difficult.
45 levels compared to one mission. I'm not seeing any "catering to the hardcore."
haha ^ this ^
i admit it is like running through the game and hitting a brick wall, but it is able to be beat.
i just finished it last night with a pick up group. we had all lost before, but were able to complete it without voice chat of any kind. just some simple conversation of tactics in the chat box.
this is hard, but not impossible. i enjoy the challenge, and await "The Cure" and all future dungeons
I tried it didnt seem to bad yeah we died but that was due to the borg numbers and the healing and shield power cooldowns are to long maybe they should look in to this or at least give an aoe shield refresh this would help.
I didnt have any problem juming about at all nor did we have a problem with activating the shields.
I did get caught outside the main shield in the last section when everyone else went in not sure why it went back up and no one on the team seemed to want to come open the shield :eek:
I think once people actually get used to doing this mission its not gonna be an issue i just wish the drops were better are guns are so cheap and i like expensive loot
That shield is only open on a timer. You need to be quick to get the whole team in, otherwise the shield goes up. If someone gets stuck, though, you could just have the team wipe and respawn outside the shield with you, and the shield will soon come back down.
Does the harder core side folks constitute a majority of the STO population? I'm sure Cryptic can datamine and do the metrics to find this out.
I'm going to hedge a guess and say they don't however. And if they don't, then that means Cryptic is developing content exclusively for a minority of their playerbase. Good? Bad? Not for me to decide although I do have my own opinions on it.
Jumping on Tribble is irrelevant. The content in question isn't what's on Tribble. The content in question is what's live ingame now. Without sounding like a complete TRIBBLE, please try to stay focused on the issue at hand and not provide distractions please.
Not sure if you folks in Cryptic ever caught on to this..but raids are not always hardcore. Going to pop a couple of words out there and see how many chuckles I get from people who call it snoozeville.
Molten Core.
Anyone else suddenly feel lethargic and like a nap might be in order? Yeah, me too.
Some raids can be fiendishly hard, sure, but others can have that raid atmosphere and not be ridiculous to finish. You have by intent, set the bar so high on the initial raid along with indicating that it is "easy" in comparison to future raids that it explicitly gives the impression that further raids will be nigh impossible unless you are a member of a fleet, have Vent, and etc.
I'm a advocate of voicechat, don't get me wrong. Best thing since peanut butter, and it has for all intents and purposes, found itself married to MMOs for good apparently.
However it along with having to have a fleet and a certain set of circumstances in order to even have a hope of accomplishing the first, initial beginner raid is just poor logic on your staff's part. Tell them so, please. There needs to be a curve of expectation here, not a ninety degree right angle. Beginner raids, intermediate raids, expert raids..you get the idea. Hell Zul'Gurub was a beginner raid, and it was challenging without being ridiculously so, and quite a lot of fun. So was killing Nagafen or Vox, for that matter too.
Point being to all of this...Cryptic is making it very clear by your and other employees input here on forums that the raid they created is for a minority of their playerbase and accomplishing it colloquially requires a miracle in terms of the right balance of voicechat, social conventions, et al.
I think alot of the frustration with this raid is that it's the first one and it requires so much to just get it to succeed that people feel if this is where it starts, it's just not worth it. Obviously not everyone feels that way, but purely from my own perspective, that's what it's starting to appear like given player feedback on forums. And when people feel like it's not worth it, obviously they will question why content isn't being made for a majority, and why if they are paying for the minority to experience new content, why they should continue to subscribe.
Of course, that's all based on the premise that the casual and raid-casual types constitute a majority in your MMO. If however, the majority of your playerbase are hardcore raiders, then by all means, please ignore this.
Does the harder core side folks constitute a majority of the STO population? I'm sure Cryptic can datamine and do the metrics to find this out.
I'm going to hedge a guess and say they don't however. And if they don't, then that means Cryptic is developing content exclusively for a minority of their playerbase. Good? Bad? Not for me to decide although I do have my own opinions on it.
Jumping on Tribble is irrelevant. The content in question isn't what's on Tribble. The content in question is what's live ingame now. Without sounding like a complete TRIBBLE, please try to stay focused on the issue at hand and not provide distractions please.
Not sure if you folks in Cryptic ever caught on to this..but raids are not always hardcore. Going to pop a couple of words out there and see how many chuckles I get from people who call it snoozeville.
Molten Core.
Anyone else suddenly feel lethargic and like a nap might be in order? Yeah, me too.
Some raids can be fiendishly hard, sure, but others can have that raid atmosphere and not be ridiculous to finish. You have by intent, set the bar so high on the initial raid along with indicating that it is "easy" in comparison to future raids that it explicitly gives the impression that further raids will be nigh impossible unless you are a member of a fleet, have Vent, and etc.
I'm a advocate of voicechat, don't get me wrong. Best thing since peanut butter, and it has for all intents and purposes, found itself married to MMOs for good apparently.
However it along with having to have a fleet and a certain set of circumstances in order to even have a hope of accomplishing the first, initial beginner raid is just poor logic on your staff's part. Tell them so, please. There needs to be a curve of expectation here, not a ninety degree right angle. Beginner raids, intermediate raids, expert raids..you get the idea. Hell Zul'Gurub was a beginner raid, and it was challenging without being ridiculously so, and quite a lot of fun. So was killing Nagafen or Vox, for that matter too.
Point being to all of this...Cryptic is making it very clear by your and other employees input here on forums that the raid they created is for a minority of their playerbase and accomplishing it colloquially requires a miracle in terms of the right balance of voicechat, social conventions, et al.
I think alot of the frustration with this raid is that it's the first one and it requires so much to just get it to succeed that people feel if this is where it starts, it's just not worth it. Obviously not everyone feels that way, but purely from my own perspective, that's what it's starting to appear like given player feedback on forums. And when people feel like it's not worth it, obviously they will question why content isn't being made for a majority, and why if they are paying for the minority to experience new content, why they should continue to subscribe.
Of course, that's all based on the premise that the casual and raid-casual types constitute a majority in your MMO. If however, the majority of your playerbase are hardcore raiders, then by all means, please ignore this.
wow great post. you really summed up my feelings on these STF's. not sure what coderangers reply meant, (o_O?) but I think they should listen to you.
I WAS a hardcore gamer/raider with Eq2 and other games prior, and I have tried the Infected and failed (numerous times). I also would like to say I am GLAD this is a difficult mission, and i want MORE like this (well, more that are difficult, require thought and coordination, not just more of the same! Don't cookie cutter the stuff!). I know 'how' the ring event at the end works to get to the queen (never did fight the queen, always wiped right before or just had to start over because of people taking too long), just dont want to lead the group cause well ... i've done enough of that stuff, and dont want to get on vent with a buncha people i dont know and end up barking at them for not listening..
But in all i say Bravo, Cryptic. A job well done with the Infected, a difficult mission ... now without looking up other peoples comments/stuff on it, I just hope theres a reward worth it at the end of the mission (I dont even remember what the quest reward was let alone item drops from the queen).
Infected Mission is easy, The Borg Queen is really easy. The only thing that makes it hard is the timer, cause your Team has to move very fast. Once you get the Strategy down you should have no problem.
Some people like the hardest of the hardcore, and some (like me) like more laid back stuff. Every mission can't be everything, and the STFs are explicitly supposed to be on the harder core side (closer to a "raid"). My recommendation would be to jump on Tribble and look at the other new stuffs on there. Don't forget to submit feedback too!
Please consider difficulty sliders for these missions. By doing this you could set difficulty levels so that all players have a chance to complete them.
Some suggested settings:
1. Solo - moderate difficulty - most players will complete this with some practice.
2. Solo - hard mode - only the best geared and skilled will complete this.
3. 5 man - moderate difficulty - most pugs can complete this.
4. 5 man hard mode - designed for well geared, well practised fleets with ventrilo coordination.
Reward the harder settings with more merits, tokens, higher drop rates on rare gear, etc.
This seems like such an easy way to expand content, and make a lot more people happy. If only I could be dev for a day...
Please consider difficulty sliders for these missions. By doing this you could set difficulty levels so that all players have a chance to complete them.
Some suggested settings:
1. Solo - moderate difficulty - most players will complete this with some practice.
2. Solo - hard mode - only the best geared and skilled will complete this.
3. 5 man - moderate difficulty - most pugs can complete this.
4. 5 man hard mode - designed for well geared, well practised fleets with ventrilo coordination.
Reward the harder settings with more merits, tokens, higher drop rates on rare gear, etc.
This seems like such an easy way to expand content, and make a lot more people happy. If only I could be dev for a day...
Or, leave it as it is, since not everyone is supposed to complete them.
Good evening ladies and gentleman. Welcome to life where Joe Schmoe can't do everything that John Awesome can.
Please stop complaining that you cant do "infected". Merely based on the fact that you get a pug group and try to tackle it the same way you did the rest of the game. The amount of complaining is not only selfish but also immature. The game is obviously relatively easy until infected. So play the rest of the game, you have already admitted the "loot" isn't that superior to anything you can get in a DPE. So either wait/do what i said in http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2377368&postcount=30 . Or do what i said in this post. Stop Complaining. Find something that warrants concern and not something that is too hard to run and gun through. If you like easy/mindless games, i recommend solitaire. Start>Games>Solitaire
Some people like the hardest of the hardcore, and some (like me) like more laid back stuff. Every mission can't be everything, and the STFs are explicitly supposed to be on the harder core side (closer to a "raid"). My recommendation would be to jump on Tribble and look at the other new stuffs on there. Don't forget to submit feedback too!
I was thinking about something. How will the new difficulty slider play into STF's. Will casual players be able to use it to make the missions easier? Will the super hardcore be able to make them so hard that only the most elite teams in all of STO will be able to complete them?
I've nver been a fan of the super hard stuff. Its a video game. It should be fun first, challenging second.
Its not even a particularly well designed mission, jumping isnt a smooth and predicitable as other MMOs. Its easy to fall in cuz you accidently roll or something stupid.
I think there needs to be more time for the generators to come back online.
I guess not everyone is supposed to keep their subscription and give cryptic money then?
ohwell. lawl.
So, wait, you mean to tell me that people will quit because only 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the content is designed for them, instead of 100%?
I've nver been a fan of the super hard stuff. Its a video game. It should be fun first, challenging second.
Its not even a particularly well designed mission, jumping isnt a smooth and predicitable as other MMOs. Its easy to fall in cuz you accidently roll or something stupid.
I think there needs to be more time for the generators to come back online.
No more time is needed. You just need to know how to do it. After they made it so you had to download the virus, my team had to re-learn the most efficient path, but after we did, it wasn't bad at all.
So, wait, you mean to tell me that people will quit because only 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the content is designed for them, instead of 100%?
That sounds pretty selfish to me.
Err, are you talking about the leveling content? The stuff that anyone who can do infected already finished and can't go do again without rerolling and burning one of their 3 char slots?
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what the borg chick and Lt. Karbo offer me?
Hardly a "straw man", and a very convenient way to sidestep literally everything I said. It falls short of a suitably intellectual response.
Let's start with basics then.
Is the majority of STO's playerbase coderanger, hardcore or casual?
I'm sure you're capable of answering that one, anyway.
From that, let's surmise that Infected is more for hardcore than casual, based on your previous statements. I'll link back to them if you need proof.
Also based on Phoxe's statements, let's assume that Infected is the easiest of these raids.
If the majority of STO's playerbase is casual, and the Infected raid is made for the hardcore only and is the easiest of these raids..
..it logically follows that Cryptic is developing content for a minority of it's playerbase.
There's simply no pat link or answer to refute that.
I agree/accept the first part of your argument. As for the last part, not at all. There is nothing that stops a casual player from successfully beating Infected. Yes it may take advice/help from another, but this is a MMORPG. Yes, chances are a casual player that isn't ready to devote a good deal of time to cant complete the STF when they are released. Give it time for the understanding of each instance to trickle down.
Err, are you talking about the leveling content? The stuff that anyone who can do infected already finished and can't go do again without rerolling and burning one of their 3 char slots?
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what the borg chick and Lt. Karbo offer me?
What about B'Tran, or PvP? What about a doing Fleet Actions? There's, what, six or seven of them to do?
At max level, Infected isn't the only option for those who want easy content. However, it's the only option in the entire game for those of us who want a challenge. Your comment also does nothing to alleviate my point, that all but Infected, from the first time you log on to this game to this moment, is crazy easy. Now people are asking for Infected to be made the same way. "I want to complete it in 20 minutes!" "This is too hard! I shouldn't have to plan on how to kill borg - never mind I can just run past them to get to the next respawn point!"
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what that Klingon offers me?
It is the definition of a straw man. None of those arguements are important or the reason why Infected is difficult.
EQ's Plane of Hate. That was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life from birth until this very afternoon.
My guild Silent Justice (Innoruuk Server) in EQ1 could clear Plane of Hate end to end in about four hours tops. Was easy.
It is by no means the definition of a "straw man"..that has turned into a convenient way to sidestep what people are refusing to address.
If these raids are for the hardcore and the majority of STO's population is casual, then Cryptic is developing this content for a minority.
The point being here, explicitly that Infected is the first and allegedly the "easiest" of what's to come. And while I'm all for things being fun AND challenging, the feedback is enormous in that Infected is only "fun" for a minority and most people go away from it simply frustrated.
It's like I said earlier, which people also conveniently sidestepped, there needs to be a "curve" of learning, and should Infected truly be the first and easiest, then it's a poor beginning.
Making the very first raid in a MMO nearly impossible for all but a select few where the game is predominantly casual, and basing it off of voicechat and the social convention of being in a fleet, or designing it around that is simply a poor developmental choice, regardless.
I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult. Make no mistakes. In fact I'll say it again just so people don't blow past it. I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult.
Now that that's clear, my point in all of this is that Infected should be the first step of several that lead up to the difficulty level that Infected is allegedly at.
Does this clarify things?
It's like I said initially, there's no straw man here whatsoever. There DOES appear however, to be a seriously marked lack of comprehension by certain readers.
My guild Silent Justice (Innoruuk Server) in EQ1 could clear Plane of Hate end to end in about four hours tops. Was easy.
It is by no means the definition of a "straw man"..that has turned into a convenient way to sidestep what people are refusing to address.
If these raids are for the hardcore and the majority of STO's population is casual, then Cryptic is developing this content for a minority.
The point being here, explicitly that Infected is the first and allegedly the "easiest" of what's to come. And while I'm all for things being fun AND challenging, the feedback is enormous in that Infected is only "fun" for a minority and most people go away from it simply frustrated.
It's like I said earlier, which people also conveniently sidestepped, there needs to be a "curve" of learning, and should Infected truly be the first and easiest, then it's a poor beginning.
Making the very first raid in a MMO nearly impossible for all but a select few where the game is predominantly casual, and basing it off of voicechat and the social convention of being in a fleet, or designing it around that is simply a poor developmental choice, regardless.
I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult. Make no mistakes. In fact I'll say it again just so people don't blow past it. I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult.
Now that that's clear, my point in all of this is that Infected should be the first step of several that lead up to the difficulty level that Infected is allegedly at.
Does this clarify things?
It's like I said initially, there's no straw man here whatsoever. There DOES appear however, to be a seriously marked lack of comprehension by certain readers.
What your point fails to address - thereby making it a straw man argument - is why it is bad for Cryptic to develop a few missions for a minority? PvPers are a minority, so do you believe that they shouldn't have implemented PvP? Klingon players are a minority, so should they get nothing?
Is the majority of STO's playerbase coderanger, hardcore or casual?
Because the majority is casual, they should provide nothing for hardcore players to do?
Personally, I won't be doing the raidisodes, because I'm a casual player. I have no problem with the devs adding some optional hardcore content for those players who like that kind of thing; just as I have no problem with the devs adding PvP missions, even though I don't like PvP.
There was really no hardcore content initially. The raidisodes provide challenging content that didn't previously exist (with the possible exception of the Crystalline Entity). There will be much more casual content in the future.
You think that you can't gain 45+ levels from B'Tran, or PvP? What about a doing Fleet Actions? There's, what, six or seven of them to do?
At max level, Infected isn't the only option for those who want easy content. However, it's the only option in the entire game for those of us who want a challenge.
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what that Klingon offers me?
B'tran - Grinding the same 5 variants of missions for hours on end? No thanks.
Fleet Actions - there is no Admiral level ones. I'm not going to go steal loot from lowbies killing **** that dies in 1 shot. The only one of those that is interesting in the slightest (CE) is usually ruined by the same people that make it impossible for some of us to beat Infected.
PvP - yea...you can go have fun with that.
You can't say that the other side has 99.9999999999% of the content when there is no real content for anyone at RA5.
This isn't like WoW and asking for an actual hard raid instance because all the others are too easy.
You assume that I lack the ability - myself - to complete the infected and that stance in of itself is inaccurate. I will admit I have not killed Rebecca, but I can only run around reviving pugs in the plasma for 5hrs+a night before it starts to get stale.
B'tran - Grinding the same 5 variants of missions for hours on end? No thanks.
Fleet Actions - there is no Admiral level ones. I'm not going to go steal loot from lowbies killing **** that dies in 1 shot. The only one of those that is interesting in the slightest (CE) is usually ruined by the same people that make it impossible for some of us to beat Infected.
PvP - yea...you can go have fun with that.
You can't say that the other side has 99.9999999999% of the content when there is no real content for anyone at RA5.
This isn't like WoW and asking for an actual hard raid instance because all the others are too easy.
You assume that I lack the ability - myself - to complete the infected and that stance in of itself is inaccurate. I will admit I have not killed Rebecca, but I can only run around reviving pugs in the plasma for 5hrs+a night before it starts to get stale.
I don't "assume" anything. You are arguing that the only content in this game designed to be difficult shouldn't be, because you don't like your options at RA5.
Many in my fleet have left STO because there is no real content for RA5.
And i know of many more that telling theyr friends not to buy this game because of
lack of content , bugs etc. And how many more do you THINK will stick around when the 5% that has the
means of vent and good tacs do do these missions are playing the next lv and the rest with theyr random teams still trying to do infected and get borred as hell , when all of them again tell they friends that the game is no good etc etc.
i have done infected all the way myself but i do realise that when most of the players cant
complete the mission just because they are not in a fleet who do tacs etc, but can only do infected with a random group everytime then they will get borred and leave.
As i said before, the end against the queen is not even a challenge as long as you just stand in a certain place in the room , then its just a matter of taking time to slowly kill her. (ARCADE DELUX)
What your point fails to address - thereby making it a straw man argument - is why it is bad for Cryptic to develop a few missions for a minority? PvPers are a minority, so do you believe that they shouldn't have implemented PvP? Klingon players are a minority, so should they get nothing?
Again, comprehension is a factor here.
I explicitly addressed this.
I stated explicitly that the circumstances for Infected were fine as a scenario of it's own. However as a initial raid, it's simply unsuitable. There should be a progression of difficulty leading up to the difficulty that Infected is at. Obviously not every casual player will be able to complete every raid. However they can complete some of the initial ones, and that is better than proverbially slamming the door in their faces from the onset, which is what Infected has essentially done.
Simply telling the majority of your playerbase, that you're developing the raids in your game only for a select few who are in fleets and use voicechat, is just poor. It could quite appear with this stance, that the endgame content being developed is only for a minority, and that the subscription fees people pay, however trivial or inconsequential, is being used for the advancement of that select minority. For those who cannot spend the time or cannot complete that content, it becomes a matter of them payihng for someone else's benefit, and t hat's a sure fire way to kill subscriptions.
It would be far better to state that you're making a progression of raids, each progressively harder, and that not all of the playerbase will be able to complete all raids. That at least empowers the casual player with the belief that there's something for them at endgame, and that Cryptic has taken them into account.
I mean, hell has anyone not considered WoW in this FFS? Zul'Gurub, Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, blah blah...Naxxramas, Kharazan, etc? For all of the finger pointing and laughing and derision, of which I do all three myself when WoW is brought up, they did this perfectly.
I stated explicitly that the circumstances for Infected were fine as a scenario of it's own. However as a initial raid, it's simply unsuitable. There should be a progression of difficulty leading up to the difficulty that Infected is at. Obviously not every casual player will be able to complete every raid. However they can complete some of the initial ones, and that is better than proverbially slamming the door in their faces from the onset, which is what Infected has essentially done.
Simply telling the majority of your playerbase, that you're developing the raids in your game only for a select few who are in fleets and use voicechat, is just poor. It could quite appear with this stance, that the endgame content being developed is only for a minority, and that the subscription fees people pay, however trivial or inconsequential, is being used for the advancement of that select minority. For those who cannot spend the time or cannot complete that content, it becomes a matter of them payihng for someone else's benefit, and t hat's a sure fire way to kill subscriptions.
It would be far better to state that you're making a progression of raids, each progressively harder, and that not all of the playerbase will be able to complete all raids. That at least empowers the casual player with the belief that there's something for them at endgame, and that Cryptic has taken them into account.
I mean, hell has anyone not considered WoW in this FFS? Zul'Gurub, Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, blah blah...Naxxramas, Kharazan, etc? For all of the finger pointing and laughing and derision, of which I do all three myself when WoW is brought up, they did this perfectly.
Cryptic did say that not all of the playerbase would be able to complete all of the raids. People started complaining, however, when Infected launched, because it was too hard for some in PUGs. That's when they said that being in a Fleet on a voicechat program will make it easier. They never said necessary.
Also, WoW raids are hardly "perfect." Scrape the walls, avoid aggro, and kill the boss. Excuse me that I actually want to DO something in a raid.
Cryptic did say that not all of the playerbase would be able to complete all of the raids. People started complaining, however, when Infected launched, because it was too hard for some in PUGs. That's when they said that being in a Fleet on a voicechat program will make it easier. They never said necessary.
Also, WoW raids are hardly "perfect." Scrape the walls, avoid aggro, and kill the boss. Excuse me that I actually want to DO something in a raid.
hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole. you're just not reading what others are saying.
hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole. you're just not reading what others are saying.
I demand an audio of you saying that. I love that word.
Also I still see no issue with infected, it's doable, easily so if you have a good team that actually listens and works together. I should cocoa, I been through it enough times.
I don't enitrely approve of having to do the boss in the centre, but we're going to be trying it that way ahead of schedule and trying to find a good way to adapt.
I don't "assume" anything. You are arguing that the only content in this game designed to be difficult shouldn't be, because you don't like your options at RA5.
Actually I had said it needs to be tweaked, not that it shouldn't be difficult. Difficulty != frustrating and aggravating. Also concentrating this on ground combat was a massive mistake considering it's the most hated mechanic of the game next to Memory Alpha.
When the death penalty comes these types of end content are going to do nothing but drive most people away from even attempting them since most PUGs die at least twenty times just getting to the final boss. Perhaps some of my distaste of the mission comes from the groups I've tried it in...I can't say since it always seems to be the same regardless and pugging is my only real option. I've taken a break from trying it since about Friday/Saturday though.
I never felt the mechanics of the instance were that difficult to begin with, but that's only if you ignore all the deaths you almost have to endure to reach the bosses. There's practically no pug science officers that go the healing route because the rest of the game people just have their BOffs do that for them so I can imagine that having a good one might make all the difference.
I will say that the majority of your playerbase not being able to complete the only content you really have to do at end game might not be the best plan.
Comments
haha ^ this ^
i admit it is like running through the game and hitting a brick wall, but it is able to be beat.
i just finished it last night with a pick up group. we had all lost before, but were able to complete it without voice chat of any kind. just some simple conversation of tactics in the chat box.
this is hard, but not impossible. i enjoy the challenge, and await "The Cure" and all future dungeons
That shield is only open on a timer. You need to be quick to get the whole team in, otherwise the shield goes up. If someone gets stuck, though, you could just have the team wipe and respawn outside the shield with you, and the shield will soon come back down.
Please see http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2377368&postcount=30
wow great post. you really summed up my feelings on these STF's. not sure what coderangers reply meant, (o_O?) but I think they should listen to you.
But in all i say Bravo, Cryptic. A job well done with the Infected, a difficult mission ... now without looking up other peoples comments/stuff on it, I just hope theres a reward worth it at the end of the mission (I dont even remember what the quest reward was let alone item drops from the queen).
Please consider difficulty sliders for these missions. By doing this you could set difficulty levels so that all players have a chance to complete them.
Some suggested settings:
1. Solo - moderate difficulty - most players will complete this with some practice.
2. Solo - hard mode - only the best geared and skilled will complete this.
3. 5 man - moderate difficulty - most pugs can complete this.
4. 5 man hard mode - designed for well geared, well practised fleets with ventrilo coordination.
Reward the harder settings with more merits, tokens, higher drop rates on rare gear, etc.
This seems like such an easy way to expand content, and make a lot more people happy. If only I could be dev for a day...
Or, leave it as it is, since not everyone is supposed to complete them.
I guess not everyone is supposed to keep their subscription and give cryptic money then?
ohwell. lawl.
Please stop complaining that you cant do "infected". Merely based on the fact that you get a pug group and try to tackle it the same way you did the rest of the game. The amount of complaining is not only selfish but also immature. The game is obviously relatively easy until infected. So play the rest of the game, you have already admitted the "loot" isn't that superior to anything you can get in a DPE. So either wait/do what i said in http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=2377368&postcount=30 . Or do what i said in this post. Stop Complaining.
I was thinking about something. How will the new difficulty slider play into STF's. Will casual players be able to use it to make the missions easier? Will the super hardcore be able to make them so hard that only the most elite teams in all of STO will be able to complete them?
Its not even a particularly well designed mission, jumping isnt a smooth and predicitable as other MMOs. Its easy to fall in cuz you accidently roll or something stupid.
I think there needs to be more time for the generators to come back online.
So, wait, you mean to tell me that people will quit because only 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the content is designed for them, instead of 100%?
That sounds pretty selfish to me.
No more time is needed. You just need to know how to do it. After they made it so you had to download the virus, my team had to re-learn the most efficient path, but after we did, it wasn't bad at all.
Hardly a "straw man", and a very convenient way to sidestep literally everything I said. It falls short of a suitably intellectual response.
Let's start with basics then.
Is the majority of STO's playerbase coderanger, hardcore or casual?
I'm sure you're capable of answering that one, anyway.
From that, let's surmise that Infected is more for hardcore than casual, based on your previous statements. I'll link back to them if you need proof.
Also based on Phoxe's statements, let's assume that Infected is the easiest of these raids.
If the majority of STO's playerbase is casual, and the Infected raid is made for the hardcore only and is the easiest of these raids..
..it logically follows that Cryptic is developing content for a minority of it's playerbase.
There's simply no pat link or answer to refute that.
EQ's Plane of Hate. That was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life from birth until this very afternoon.
Err, are you talking about the leveling content? The stuff that anyone who can do infected already finished and can't go do again without rerolling and burning one of their 3 char slots?
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what the borg chick and Lt. Karbo offer me?
I agree/accept the first part of your argument. As for the last part, not at all. There is nothing that stops a casual player from successfully beating Infected. Yes it may take advice/help from another, but this is a MMORPG.
What about B'Tran, or PvP? What about a doing Fleet Actions? There's, what, six or seven of them to do?
At max level, Infected isn't the only option for those who want easy content. However, it's the only option in the entire game for those of us who want a challenge. Your comment also does nothing to alleviate my point, that all but Infected, from the first time you log on to this game to this moment, is crazy easy. Now people are asking for Infected to be made the same way. "I want to complete it in 20 minutes!" "This is too hard! I shouldn't have to plan on how to kill borg - never mind I can just run past them to get to the next respawn point!"
Or is there some magical dimension I'm missing that contains vastly more than what that Klingon offers me?
My guild Silent Justice (Innoruuk Server) in EQ1 could clear Plane of Hate end to end in about four hours tops. Was easy.
It is by no means the definition of a "straw man"..that has turned into a convenient way to sidestep what people are refusing to address.
If these raids are for the hardcore and the majority of STO's population is casual, then Cryptic is developing this content for a minority.
The point being here, explicitly that Infected is the first and allegedly the "easiest" of what's to come. And while I'm all for things being fun AND challenging, the feedback is enormous in that Infected is only "fun" for a minority and most people go away from it simply frustrated.
It's like I said earlier, which people also conveniently sidestepped, there needs to be a "curve" of learning, and should Infected truly be the first and easiest, then it's a poor beginning.
Making the very first raid in a MMO nearly impossible for all but a select few where the game is predominantly casual, and basing it off of voicechat and the social convention of being in a fleet, or designing it around that is simply a poor developmental choice, regardless.
I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult. Make no mistakes. In fact I'll say it again just so people don't blow past it. I'm all for later raids being fiendishly difficult.
Now that that's clear, my point in all of this is that Infected should be the first step of several that lead up to the difficulty level that Infected is allegedly at.
Does this clarify things?
It's like I said initially, there's no straw man here whatsoever. There DOES appear however, to be a seriously marked lack of comprehension by certain readers.
What your point fails to address - thereby making it a straw man argument - is why it is bad for Cryptic to develop a few missions for a minority? PvPers are a minority, so do you believe that they shouldn't have implemented PvP? Klingon players are a minority, so should they get nothing?
Because the majority is casual, they should provide nothing for hardcore players to do?
Personally, I won't be doing the raidisodes, because I'm a casual player. I have no problem with the devs adding some optional hardcore content for those players who like that kind of thing; just as I have no problem with the devs adding PvP missions, even though I don't like PvP.
There was really no hardcore content initially. The raidisodes provide challenging content that didn't previously exist (with the possible exception of the Crystalline Entity). There will be much more casual content in the future.
B'tran - Grinding the same 5 variants of missions for hours on end? No thanks.
Fleet Actions - there is no Admiral level ones. I'm not going to go steal loot from lowbies killing **** that dies in 1 shot. The only one of those that is interesting in the slightest (CE) is usually ruined by the same people that make it impossible for some of us to beat Infected.
PvP - yea...you can go have fun with that.
You can't say that the other side has 99.9999999999% of the content when there is no real content for anyone at RA5.
This isn't like WoW and asking for an actual hard raid instance because all the others are too easy.
You assume that I lack the ability - myself - to complete the infected and that stance in of itself is inaccurate. I will admit I have not killed Rebecca, but I can only run around reviving pugs in the plasma for 5hrs+a night before it starts to get stale.
I don't "assume" anything. You are arguing that the only content in this game designed to be difficult shouldn't be, because you don't like your options at RA5.
And i know of many more that telling theyr friends not to buy this game because of
lack of content , bugs etc. And how many more do you THINK will stick around when the 5% that has the
means of vent and good tacs do do these missions are playing the next lv and the rest with theyr random teams still trying to do infected and get borred as hell , when all of them again tell they friends that the game is no good etc etc.
i have done infected all the way myself but i do realise that when most of the players cant
complete the mission just because they are not in a fleet who do tacs etc, but can only do infected with a random group everytime then they will get borred and leave.
As i said before, the end against the queen is not even a challenge as long as you just stand in a certain place in the room , then its just a matter of taking time to slowly kill her. (ARCADE DELUX)
Again, comprehension is a factor here.
I explicitly addressed this.
I stated explicitly that the circumstances for Infected were fine as a scenario of it's own. However as a initial raid, it's simply unsuitable. There should be a progression of difficulty leading up to the difficulty that Infected is at. Obviously not every casual player will be able to complete every raid. However they can complete some of the initial ones, and that is better than proverbially slamming the door in their faces from the onset, which is what Infected has essentially done.
Simply telling the majority of your playerbase, that you're developing the raids in your game only for a select few who are in fleets and use voicechat, is just poor. It could quite appear with this stance, that the endgame content being developed is only for a minority, and that the subscription fees people pay, however trivial or inconsequential, is being used for the advancement of that select minority. For those who cannot spend the time or cannot complete that content, it becomes a matter of them payihng for someone else's benefit, and t hat's a sure fire way to kill subscriptions.
It would be far better to state that you're making a progression of raids, each progressively harder, and that not all of the playerbase will be able to complete all raids. That at least empowers the casual player with the belief that there's something for them at endgame, and that Cryptic has taken them into account.
I mean, hell has anyone not considered WoW in this FFS? Zul'Gurub, Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, blah blah...Naxxramas, Kharazan, etc? For all of the finger pointing and laughing and derision, of which I do all three myself when WoW is brought up, they did this perfectly.
Cryptic did say that not all of the playerbase would be able to complete all of the raids. People started complaining, however, when Infected launched, because it was too hard for some in PUGs. That's when they said that being in a Fleet on a voicechat program will make it easier. They never said necessary.
Also, WoW raids are hardly "perfect." Scrape the walls, avoid aggro, and kill the boss. Excuse me that I actually want to DO something in a raid.
hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole. you're just not reading what others are saying.
I demand an audio of you saying that. I love that word.
Also I still see no issue with infected, it's doable, easily so if you have a good team that actually listens and works together. I should cocoa, I been through it enough times.
I don't enitrely approve of having to do the boss in the centre, but we're going to be trying it that way ahead of schedule and trying to find a good way to adapt.
Actually I had said it needs to be tweaked, not that it shouldn't be difficult. Difficulty != frustrating and aggravating. Also concentrating this on ground combat was a massive mistake considering it's the most hated mechanic of the game next to Memory Alpha.
When the death penalty comes these types of end content are going to do nothing but drive most people away from even attempting them since most PUGs die at least twenty times just getting to the final boss. Perhaps some of my distaste of the mission comes from the groups I've tried it in...I can't say since it always seems to be the same regardless and pugging is my only real option. I've taken a break from trying it since about Friday/Saturday though.
I never felt the mechanics of the instance were that difficult to begin with, but that's only if you ignore all the deaths you almost have to endure to reach the bosses. There's practically no pug science officers that go the healing route because the rest of the game people just have their BOffs do that for them so I can imagine that having a good one might make all the difference.
I will say that the majority of your playerbase not being able to complete the only content you really have to do at end game might not be the best plan.