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Ten Forward Weekly 10/24/23

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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,279 Arc User
    You know, if there would be one crossover I'd really like to see with Star Trek Online, it would be Starcraft...the Federation thought the Dominion, Borg, Undine, and Iconians were bad? Imagine facing a species that embodies all of their most dangerous features at once, all cranked up to 111.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,008 Community Moderator
    edited November 2023
    On the topic of Crossovers, they're now totally possible with this current Story Arc, the characters just have to be from an AU, Alternate Timeline, Cloning or summoned by Q, Like I could argue that SNW and TOS are alternate timelines, TOS takes place in a timeline without Borg Time Travelers, while ENT, Disco and SNW take place in a timeline after the events of First Contact.

    Except that the events of Trouble with Tribbles is referenced in DS9, we see Riker and Troi during the events surrounding the Pegasus in the series finale of Enterprise...

    Time Travel in Star Trek is a bit messy. Most of the time its portrayed as whatever happens in the past affects the future, and thus any damage must be repaired to restore the timeline. Which is exactly how the events of First Contact are portrayed. Enterprise going back in time to ensure history proceeds as it is meant to. Therefore the events of Enterprise, Discovery, and Strange New Worlds happen in the Prime Timeline alongside TOS and TNG.

    The problem with prequels is that you have to contend with the fact that those events being portrayed were either only referenced in passing or not referenced at all in things that came before because... they weren't thought of at the time. The only time that an instance of Time Travel actually altered history and that altered history STUCK was the Kelvin Timeline. But it still required everything from the Prime Timeline to exist, as evidenced by not only Old Spock's existence, but the picture of the Prime Timeline Enterprise crew, and even mention of events prior to the timeline split in 2233, such as the Earth-Romulan War, founding of the Federation, and mention of MACO when going over the history of the USS Franklin.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    On the topic of Crossovers, they're now totally possible with this current Story Arc, the characters just have to be from an AU, Alternate Timeline, Cloning or summoned by Q, Like I could argue that SNW and TOS are alternate timelines, TOS takes place in a timeline without Borg Time Travelers, while ENT, Disco and SNW take place in a timeline after the events of First Contact.

    Except that the events of Trouble with Tribbles is referenced in DS9, we see Riker and Troi during the events surrounding the Pegasus in the series finale of Enterprise...

    Time Travel in Star Trek is a bit messy. Most of the time its portrayed as whatever happens in the past affects the future, and thus any damage must be repaired to restore the timeline. Which is exactly how the events of First Contact are portrayed. Enterprise going back in time to ensure history proceeds as it is meant to. Therefore the events of Enterprise, Discovery, and Strange New Worlds happen in the Prime Timeline alongside TOS and TNG.

    The problem with prequels is that you have to contend with the fact that those events being portrayed were either only referenced in passing or not referenced at all in things that came before because... they weren't thought of at the time. The only time that an instance of Time Travel actually altered history and that altered history STUCK was the Kelvin Timeline. But it still required everything from the Prime Timeline to exist, as evidenced by not only Old Spock's existence, but the picture of the Prime Timeline Enterprise crew, and even mention of events prior to the timeline split in 2233, such as the Earth-Romulan War, founding of the Federation, and mention of MACO when going over the history of the USS Franklin.
    I'd say time travel is messy even in Doctor Who and that's an IP built around time travel. Both Picard and Lower Decks refer too much to previous events for there being a timeline swap that way and both them are set after First Contact.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Not only that, I think the old City of Villians didn't fair as well as City of Heroes did.
    ^^^
    Oh, it didn't. Down the road, the City Of Dev team (Paragon Studios which was made up of Cryptic Devs who stayed when they sold the CoH IP to NCSoft and went off to make Marvel Heroes which would ultimately become Champions Online when Microsoft bailed and Cryptic was bought by French Infogames/ATARI), wished they had never done it and they learned that effectively splitting the playerbase in the way the CoV expansion did was just not good for the financial health of the game - and it hurt both by making the overall game playerbase appear smaller to prospective new players of either.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited November 2023
    You know, if there would be one crossover I'd really like to see with Star Trek Online, it would be Starcraft...the Federation thought the Dominion, Borg, Undine, and Iconians were bad? Imagine facing a species that embodies all of their most dangerous features at once, all cranked up to 111.​​

    If you're going that route you may as well do Starcraft's inspiration, Warhammer 40k has a much more developed roster of space ships and cranks things up to 12.

    Chaos Borg, nuff said.

    If I was to take this seriously though I'd opt for Foundation. The series has criminally under-appreciated ship design and it would be fantastic to get them in a game. It also totally works as an alt-timeline, as warp travel and hyperspace work on similar principles but varying degrees (surprise surprise given Asimov advised for TMP). The other great candidate is Niven's Known Space, which could be integrated to our current timeline by just throwing Puppeteers into the Trek universe and General Products as a general ship builder used by a wide variety of civilian outlets. Also Protectors and Ringworlds, with the former being a thing any humanoid can be mutated into rather than just humans.

    Ie. go for the scifi masters who already contributed to the IP.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    You know, if there would be one crossover I'd really like to see with Star Trek Online, it would be Starcraft...the Federation thought the Dominion, Borg, Undine, and Iconians were bad? Imagine facing a species that embodies all of their most dangerous features at once, all cranked up to 111.​​

    If you're going that route you may as well do Starcraft's inspiration, Warhammer 40k has a much more developed roster of space ships and cranks things up to 12.

    Chaos Borg, nuff said.

    40k isn't that hard to do, you could even spin it as some sort of Trek AU, since Borgs are basically Necrons, Romulans cover the Drukhari with Vulcans basically being Eldar, Terrans themselves cover the Imperium of Man and Tyranids are the Hurq.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,008 Community Moderator
    40k isn't that hard to do, you could even spin it as some sort of Trek AU, since Borgs are basically Necrons, Romulans cover the Drukhari with Vulcans basically being Eldar, Terrans themselves cover the Imperium of Man and Tyranids are the Hurq.

    I am hesitant to cross 40k with ANYTHING because of the fact most of their stuff is OP by nature compared to any other Sci-Fi. I mean a Bolter is literally a 40mm Grenade Launcher Gyrojet designed to punch through Adamantium! And its full auto! And most of their ships START around the size of a Sovereign class starship to an Imperial Star Destroyer... for FRIGATES. I think one of the only things in Star Trek that can match most of 40ks ships in size is V'Ger.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,867 Arc User
    edited November 2023
    rattler2 wrote: »
    40k isn't that hard to do, you could even spin it as some sort of Trek AU, since Borgs are basically Necrons, Romulans cover the Drukhari with Vulcans basically being Eldar, Terrans themselves cover the Imperium of Man and Tyranids are the Hurq.

    I am hesitant to cross 40k with ANYTHING because of the fact most of their stuff is OP by nature compared to any other Sci-Fi. I mean a Bolter is literally a 40mm Grenade Launcher Gyrojet designed to punch through Adamantium! And its full auto! And most of their ships START around the size of a Sovereign class starship to an Imperial Star Destroyer... for FRIGATES. I think one of the only things in Star Trek that can match most of 40ks ships in size is V'Ger.

    That's what translates WH40k into bouncy castle fun times despite being the complete antithesis in literal presentation. It's a scifi universe built around child-like catharsis and wonder at making entropy happen at speed.

    But...I wonder if tapping into that in some form in Trek could be a lot of fun (especially in gaming). Phasers are already stupidly OP in technical capabilities vs. modern weapons, but somehow they always translate into Storm Trooper blasters at best for rote gunfights. Someone occasionally gets vaporized but it's little more than slightly off-putting spectacle glossing over someone getting shot. STO has gone further over the years in power creep and needing to find new things to interest players but...embracing catharsis in weapon design, mechanics, defenses, and aesthetics could be a better way to go. At the very least, you're exploring the potential for tech's advancement to change the mode, tempo, or objectives of conflict (ex. smart firing modes and overcoming someone's technical defenses being the core of a Trek shootout vs. going pew pew at each other from behind boxes, at best).

    Also for STO: we could do with a rifle version of the competitive rep pistol. Ie. a railgun bolt-style weapon. >:)
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,309 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    40k isn't that hard to do, you could even spin it as some sort of Trek AU, since Borgs are basically Necrons, Romulans cover the Drukhari with Vulcans basically being Eldar, Terrans themselves cover the Imperium of Man and Tyranids are the Hurq.

    I am hesitant to cross 40k with ANYTHING because of the fact most of their stuff is OP by nature compared to any other Sci-Fi. I mean a Bolter is literally a 40mm Grenade Launcher Gyrojet designed to punch through Adamantium! And its full auto! And most of their ships START around the size of a Sovereign class starship to an Imperial Star Destroyer... for FRIGATES. I think one of the only things in Star Trek that can match most of 40ks ships in size is V'Ger.

    That's what translates WH40k into bouncy castle fun times despite being the complete antithesis in literal presentation. It's a scifi universe built around child-like catharsis and wonder at making entropy happen at speed.

    But...I wonder if tapping into that in some form in Trek could be a lot of fun (especially in gaming). Phasers are already stupidly OP in technical capabilities vs. modern weapons, but somehow they always translate into Storm Trooper blasters at best for rote gunfights. Someone occasionally gets vaporized but it's little more than slightly off-putting spectacle glossing over someone getting shot. STO has gone further over the years in power creep and needing to find new things to interest players but...embracing catharsis in weapon design, mechanics, defenses, and aesthetics could be a better way to go. At the very least, you're exploring the potential for tech's advancement to change the mode, tempo, or objectives of conflict (ex. smart firing modes and overcoming someone's technical defenses being the core of a Trek shootout vs. going pew pew at each other from behind boxes, at best).

    Also for STO: we could do with a rifle version of the competitive rep pistol. Ie. a railgun bolt-style weapon. >:)

    Comp rep rifle is something i can get behind.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,360 Arc User
    There's a fellow on TikTok who has a series of videos on how Starfleet in particular would roflstomp the WH40K universe. Warp drive doesn't use the Warp; a society with replicators isn't easily seduced by promises of plenty, and in fact might be able to win a large part of the Imperium over by just replacing corpsestarch with replicated steaks and cheeseburgers; and technological development is frozen in WH40K, while Starfleet, when presented with a new "unbeatable" opponent, will figure out something clever to escape or defeat them, probably involving the deflector array. (His caveat: This only works as long as Starfleet remains Starfleet, that is to say an organization of scientists and explorers who are only secondarily warriors. The minute they try to take on WH40K on its own terms, they lose. He's also not sure how well the Romulans would fare, but the Klingons have a great weakness to exploit in terms of their conception of honor - Chaos would eat them alive.)

    There's also a hilarious, albeit short, spinoff he did of a baffled LTjg in Engineering who's been tasked with figuring out exactly how Ork technology works. He fixed (and improved!) a broken BFG-9000 by painting over the last 0 and replacing it with a 1, making it a BFG-9001. He still doesn't know how.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 58,008 Community Moderator
    lol
    Well... when it comes to Ork technology... don't question it. They are literally the embodyment of "power of belief". They believe it works, therefore it works.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,497 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    On the topic of Crossovers, they're now totally possible with this current Story Arc, the characters just have to be from an AU, Alternate Timeline, Cloning or summoned by Q, Like I could argue that SNW and TOS are alternate timelines, TOS takes place in a timeline without Borg Time Travelers, while ENT, Disco and SNW take place in a timeline after the events of First Contact.

    Except that the events of Trouble with Tribbles is referenced in DS9, we see Riker and Troi during the events surrounding the Pegasus in the series finale of Enterprise...

    Time Travel in Star Trek is a bit messy. Most of the time its portrayed as whatever happens in the past affects the future, and thus any damage must be repaired to restore the timeline. Which is exactly how the events of First Contact are portrayed. Enterprise going back in time to ensure history proceeds as it is meant to. Therefore the events of Enterprise, Discovery, and Strange New Worlds happen in the Prime Timeline alongside TOS and TNG.

    The problem with prequels is that you have to contend with the fact that those events being portrayed were either only referenced in passing or not referenced at all in things that came before because... they weren't thought of at the time. The only time that an instance of Time Travel actually altered history and that altered history STUCK was the Kelvin Timeline. But it still required everything from the Prime Timeline to exist, as evidenced by not only Old Spock's existence, but the picture of the Prime Timeline Enterprise crew, and even mention of events prior to the timeline split in 2233, such as the Earth-Romulan War, founding of the Federation, and mention of MACO when going over the history of the USS Franklin.

    The DS9 reference to The Trouble with Tribbles is not a problem because (according to at least one popular fan theory) it probably happened before the fold caused by the time incursion in First Contact. Theoretically NuTrek could show something slightly different happening in the post-fold part of the time spiral without it violating continuity as long as the writers don't present it as it having been the only version (like by making two hops and starting their trip to K7 from the pre-fold version of DS9 instead of the post-fold version).

    Similarly, the ENT-TNG cross is not necessarily a problem since it is explainable as it being ENT (which dialog in the TOS episode Metamorphosis makes crystal clear never happened in TOS's past, Cochrane's background was completely different from that shown in the movie so it is naturally post-fold) and the TNG from ENT's future, not the one from TOS's future (which in this case is probably identical).

    Most other references to TOS and the early spinoffs like the TOS-crew movies and whatnot can be explained pretty much the same way, though realistically the changes would have to be from a lot earlier than First Contact.

    The time travel is not quite as messy as it looks on the surface, there is a definite pattern to the way Trek does it (or at least the bulk of it anyway, and the exceptions are still explainable as differences introduced by the particular method used) that spans both TOS and the many spinoffs that came after. It helps that the style was fairly common in novels back in the '50s and '60s of course.

    A ramification of the whole "go back and fix it" thing returning everything back to exactly the way it was, is that time is immutable to a large degree (or at least it is in immutable but spliceable quantum chunks) and that the crew actually were traversing branching time with an obvious way back (once they essentially flip the right de facto switch) but simply misunderstood what was happening in those early trips.

    That works out especially well since it also integrates TNG's episode Parallels and VOY's Relativity (where they were testing paths through the paradox to in essence try and find where the spurious path with the bomb was spliced on and kick it loose) as well as the Kelvin stuff though that last one was apparently too far out from Prime for the way back to be something even resembling simple and obvious.

    rattler2 wrote: »
    lol
    Well... when it comes to Ork technology... don't question it. They are literally the embodyment of "power of belief". They believe it works, therefore it works.

    True, and combining soft sci-fi with space fantasy is even harder to do realistically than sci-fi and space opera. WH40K Orks have their own peculiar paradigm of technomagic in a setting that uses multiple paradigms similar to the way White Wolf's classic World of Darkness did which does not always mix well with Trek's universal science concepts.
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