So new gorn

shren

I love the new adult Gorn in SNW so i hope they change the model again but just hoping cause i know other races need updates but I just hate the Godzilla looking model always have.

jonsills

The big stiff lizard is apparently supposed to be the fully-adult stage; the "younglings", as Sam Kirk called them, are small, predatory, and presapient, then comes the reproductive stage which is sapient, still has the tail, and sprays eggs into the flesh of potential hosts, and finally the fully-adult stage which is the most intelligent and also has dropped the tail. (Either that, or they are going to change the full- adult form into something that looks less like a guy in a rubber costume on a '60s sci-fi show that was running low on budget. Either way works for me.)

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inferiority

colonelmarik wrote: »

It's this sort of ignorance of established canon that makes me not watch any of the new "Trek."

Star Trek, like any long-running TV show, often 'forgets' a bit of its' own history if it's going to get in the way of telling a new story. There's plenty examples of this scattered throughout the various series.

It certainly annoys me when the 'past' is ignored, changed or whatever, but it won't stop me enjoying the episode I'm watching.

vetteguy904

I think the writers either never saw Arena or just liked the Enterprise version of the gorn better

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jonsills

colonelmarik wrote: »

Strange New Worlds is set at least 10 years before Arena, which is the first time the Federation had contact with the Gorn.

It's this sort of ignorance of established canon that makes me not watch any of the new "Trek."

The episode did not say it was the first time. It said that they were surprised to find Gorn anywhere near Cestus III, and that the Federation knew next to nothing about them. That, combined with this episode, would tend to indicate that the Gorn have a tendency to simply declare regions of space that belong to them, and then "defend" them. Then the Metrons got involved, and that became less important.

But I guess it's more fun to bash on new shows than go back to watch the old ones rather than worship them.

lianthelia

jonsills wrote: »

colonelmarik wrote: »

Strange New Worlds is set at least 10 years before Arena, which is the first time the Federation had contact with the Gorn.

It's this sort of ignorance of established canon that makes me not watch any of the new "Trek."

The episode did not say it was the first time. It said that they were surprised to find Gorn anywhere near Cestus III, and that the Federation knew next to nothing about them. That, combined with this episode, would tend to indicate that the Gorn have a tendency to simply declare regions of space that belong to them, and then "defend" them. Then the Metrons got involved, and that became less important.

But I guess it's more fun to bash on new shows than go back to watch the old ones rather than worship them.

Maybe it wouldn't be so easy to make fun of it if it wasn't written by CW rejects that never saw a episode of Star Trek....it's like Klutzman and crew put a ad on craig's list for writer just so could pay them dirt cheap and spend every dime on pew pew special effects (which clearly got cheaper each season, not something that would happen if it was the runaway hit people claimed)

(Real-world politics removed. - BMR)

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psiameese

Well. We have TMP - TNG - DS9 Klingons. AND we have Discovery Klingons right along side them in our game. And a great story arc which integrates everything.

I'm for future story arc of missions pertaining to the Gorn (and why not the Orions since some are actually in Starfleet per Lower Decks). Incorporating everything we have now. Refining more of their role in the Klingon Defense Force of the present. Working the mix of current and fresh starship designs into the story.

rattler2

colonelmarik wrote: »

In the episode, Spock says there's nothing known about the area except "space legends." In his log, Kirk says the alien is "something called a Gorn," which suggests it's a name he's never heard before. There was nothing about being surprised to find the Gorn at Cestus, because there was no reference to the Gorn at all until the Metrons named them.

It is possible that the Gorn remain a mystery to Kirk as this event in SNW could be treated as either a classified event or as a border skirmish only with no real communication with the Gorn other than them basically saying "don't cross this line or else". Just because Pike had at least three hostile encounters with the Gorn doesn't mean they know anything about them.

Think about how the first encounter between Starfleet and the Romulans was handled in Enterprise. Nothing broke canon as the Romulans were still mysterious to Starfleet up until Balance of Terror in TOS. These events with the Gorn being basically the boogyman up until Arena could be a similar scenario. We just need to let it play out before passing judgement. Kirk isn't aboard the Enterprise at this time so he wouldn't be aware of these events. At most Starfleet is on alert but no details as to what it is.

As for the design of the Gorn... I like it. Really makes them feel truly alien.
The Gorn were one of the races from TOS that we really never got to learn anything else about in canon. They were a monster of the week species that was never touched again until Enterprise, then never really touched again until SNW. We got a bit of a tease in Discovery with the Gorn skeleton, but that's about it. They were a blank slate.

Now... how do we reconcile the TOS Gorn with the SNW Gorn? Maybe they're going to do what was done in Beta Canon where the Gorn are actually like three races with a common ancestor that decided to band together rather than fight each other. Or maybe the Gorn in TOS was an Elder who had lost his tail in battle.

There ARE ways to work it, we just gotta give them time TO work it.

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avoozuul

If they add the new Gorn then I hope they keep them separate from the older Gorn.

smokebailey

vetteguy904 wrote: »

I think the writers either never saw Arena or just liked the Enterprise version of the gorn better

They see to want to 'cancel' TOS as much as they possibly can, sadly.

smokebailey

rattler2 wrote: »

colonelmarik wrote: »

In the episode, Spock says there's nothing known about the area except "space legends." In his log, Kirk says the alien is "something called a Gorn," which suggests it's a name he's never heard before. There was nothing about being surprised to find the Gorn at Cestus, because there was no reference to the Gorn at all until the Metrons named them.

It is possible that the Gorn remain a mystery to Kirk as this event in SNW could be treated as either a classified event or as a border skirmish only with no real communication with the Gorn other than them basically saying "don't cross this line or else". Just because Pike had at least three hostile encounters with the Gorn doesn't mean they know anything about them.

Think about how the first encounter between Starfleet and the Romulans was handled in Enterprise. Nothing broke canon as the Romulans were still mysterious to Starfleet up until Balance of Terror in TOS. These events with the Gorn being basically the boogyman up until Arena could be a similar scenario. We just need to let it play out before passing judgement. Kirk isn't aboard the Enterprise at this time so he wouldn't be aware of these events. At most Starfleet is on alert but no details as to what it is.

As for the design of the Gorn... I like it. Really makes them feel truly alien.
The Gorn were one of the races from TOS that we really never got to learn anything else about in canon. They were a monster of the week species that was never touched again until Enterprise, then never really touched again until SNW. We got a bit of a tease in Discovery with the Gorn skeleton, but that's about it. They were a blank slate.

Now... how do we reconcile the TOS Gorn with the SNW Gorn? Maybe they're going to do what was done in Beta Canon where the Gorn are actually like three races with a common ancestor that decided to band together rather than fight each other. Or maybe the Gorn in TOS was an Elder who had lost his tail in battle.

There ARE ways to work it, we just gotta give them time TO work it.

Classifying it all, like they did with the end of Disco, season 2. The cheap, fast, lazy answer to everything.

duncanidaho11

rattler2 wrote: »

Now... how do we reconcile the TOS Gorn with the SNW Gorn? Maybe they're going to do what was done in Beta Canon where the Gorn are actually like three races with a common ancestor that decided to band together rather than fight each other. Or maybe the Gorn in TOS was an Elder who had lost his tail in battle.

There ARE ways to work it, we just gotta give them time TO work it.

Very much agreed. Points of difference can be reconciled with the magic of imagination and writing. For the Gorn, the biggest departure so far as been STO in making them articulate. We've never seen that in the IP as even the TOS Gorn was a non-verbal, reflexively aggressive individual who, while intelligent, wasn't coming to Kirk with a plan for how to escape their situation. With increased special effects budgets and tech this was leaned into with ENT and now SNW. Call each a point of a wider sliding scale of behavior than other humanoids have. Some are completely hostile and near-feral, others can act as erudite ambassadors on Qo'Nos, with the difference coming from upbringing and a wide range of environmentally mediated phenotypic plasticity, suiting the Gorn body to more or less feral conditions. The more alien gorn could be the product of more hostile environments while more rounded/humanoid Gorn are from less hostile environments. They achieved sapience differently than other species, with only part of their developmental makeup reaching full, conversant humanoid with predatory facets preserved behind epigenetic triggers. Leave a gorn baby in the woods and they'll turn into a Ridly Scott creation. Put one in a suburban school and they'll become an accountant. Having both extremes maintained by selection simply owes to the variable environments gorn have found themselves in (cue unsteady and patchy history of civilization and colonization, reinforced by social practice).

And I'd love if someone went with this (cough cough STO...) because it would 1) provide a nice lesson point on evolutionary biology which isn't entirely regressive (looking at you Preservers, that's pre-Darwinian ideas on "progress" writ large) or TRIBBLE (see. introns in TNG) and 2) break from the convention of Trek alien species being an increasingly dated rubber-headed allegory for an Earth demographic or social practice, instead channeling contemplation on fundamental biology (and how to deal with what your species is evolved with) in scifi. The genre's capable of more than just social commentary around a fixed POV for human normalcy when it comes to aliens (ie. take the Larry Niven or Charles Sheffield approach and run with it).

nrobbiec

I'm thinking of it leaning into the Gorn are multiple races thing. Like the Russth and Ssessekh of beta canon fame. SNW has been leaning into a fair bit of that to do justice to the underdeveloped aspects of TOS. It certainly adheres to canon much more so than Picard season 3 which upon time fr reflection I'm glad STO can just ignore. First 2 seasons were fantastic and sit nicely in the game's timeline.

phoenixc

duncanidaho11 wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

Now... how do we reconcile the TOS Gorn with the SNW Gorn? Maybe they're going to do what was done in Beta Canon where the Gorn are actually like three races with a common ancestor that decided to band together rather than fight each other. Or maybe the Gorn in TOS was an Elder who had lost his tail in battle.

There ARE ways to work it, we just gotta give them time TO work it.

Very much agreed. Points of difference can be reconciled with the magic of imagination and writing. For the Gorn, the biggest departure so far as been STO in making them articulate. We've never seen that in the IP as even the TOS Gorn was a non-verbal, reflexively aggressive individual who, while intelligent, wasn't coming to Kirk with a plan for how to escape their situation. With increased special effects budgets and tech this was leaned into with ENT and now SNW. Call each a point of a wider sliding scale of behavior than other humanoids have. Some are completely hostile and near-feral, others can act as erudite ambassadors on Qo'Nos, with the difference coming from upbringing and a wide range of environmentally mediated phenotypic plasticity, suiting the Gorn body to more or less feral conditions. The more alien gorn could be the product of more hostile environments while more rounded/humanoid Gorn are from less hostile environments. They achieved sapience differently than other species, with only part of their developmental makeup reaching full, conversant humanoid with predatory facets preserved behind epigenetic triggers. Leave a gorn baby in the woods and they'll turn into a Ridly Scott creation. Put one in a suburban school and they'll become an accountant. Having both extremes maintained by selection simply owes to the variable environments gorn have found themselves in (cue unsteady and patchy history of civilization and colonization, reinforced by social practice).

And I'd love if someone went with this (cough cough STO...) because it would 1) provide a nice lesson point on evolutionary biology which isn't entirely regressive (looking at you Preservers, that's pre-Darwinian ideas on "progress" writ large) or TRIBBLE (see. introns in TNG) and 2) break from the convention of Trek alien species being an increasingly dated rubber-headed allegory for an Earth demographic or social practice, instead channeling contemplation on fundamental biology (and how to deal with what your species is evolved with) in scifi. The genre's capable of more than just social commentary around a fixed POV for human normalcy when it comes to aliens (ie. take the Larry Niven or Charles Sheffield approach and run with it).

The TOS Gorn did speak, the small translators simply could not handle their language, though if Kirk had one of the Pringle-can sized ones it would probably have had the translations figured out in short order. The reason they never talked to them ship-to-ship is that the Gorn refused to answer the Enterprise's hails while trying to outrun them.

shren

Well this post got out of hand i was hoping people would argue that the developers just create ships and not update the races. but instead turned into a flame post about the show. I thought people would be more accepting to a Gorn change instead of those klingons we got that no one asked for.

vetteguy904

rattler2 wrote: »

colonelmarik wrote: »

In the episode, Spock says there's nothing known about the area except "space legends." In his log, Kirk says the alien is "something called a Gorn," which suggests it's a name he's never heard before. There was nothing about being surprised to find the Gorn at Cestus, because there was no reference to the Gorn at all until the Metrons named them.

It is possible that the Gorn remain a mystery to Kirk as this event in SNW could be treated as either a classified event or as a border skirmish only with no real communication with the Gorn other than them basically saying "don't cross this line or else". Just because Pike had at least three hostile encounters with the Gorn doesn't mean they know anything about them.

Think about how the first encounter between Starfleet and the Romulans was handled in Enterprise. Nothing broke canon as the Romulans were still mysterious to Starfleet up until Balance of Terror in TOS. These events with the Gorn being basically the boogyman up until Arena could be a similar scenario. We just need to let it play out before passing judgement. Kirk isn't aboard the Enterprise at this time so he wouldn't be aware of these events. At most Starfleet is on alert but no details as to what it is.

As for the design of the Gorn... I like it. Really makes them feel truly alien.
The Gorn were one of the races from TOS that we really never got to learn anything else about in canon. They were a monster of the week species that was never touched again until Enterprise, then never really touched again until SNW. We got a bit of a tease in Discovery with the Gorn skeleton, but that's about it. They were a blank slate.

Now... how do we reconcile the TOS Gorn with the SNW Gorn? Maybe they're going to do what was done in Beta Canon where the Gorn are actually like three races with a common ancestor that decided to band together rather than fight each other. Or maybe the Gorn in TOS was an Elder who had lost his tail in battle.

There ARE ways to work it, we just gotta give them time TO work it.

except JTkirk is on track as an XO.. he would have the same knowledge as the captain, for the most part, and Pike specifically mentioned the new phasers and scanners were on every ship now, so Kirk SHOULD be aware of the gorn

jonsills

shren#1472 wrote: »

Well this post got out of hand i was hoping people would argue that the developers just create ships and not update the races. but instead turned into a flame post about the show. I thought people would be more accepting to a Gorn change instead of those klingons we got that no one asked for.

Sadly, we have an extremely vocal minority here who love to bash the new shows any chance they get (even though some of them don't even watch the new shows, Val).

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baddmoonrizin

Y'all take the personal insults and verbal sparring to DM or something, and keep it out of the threads and derailing them.

rattler2

vetteguy904 wrote: »

except JTkirk is on track as an XO.. he would have the same knowledge as the captain, for the most part, and Pike specifically mentioned the new phasers and scanners were on every ship now, so Kirk SHOULD be aware of the gorn

But has he actually SEEN one yet? Awareness doesn't always equal actual knowledge. Knowing you got gear to fight something doesn't mean you know WHAT you're fighting. And also consider the timing. If this is as close as we get before the Gorn decide to "vanish" for 5+ years... it is plausible that Starfleet would relax a bit as well, leading to the scenario we had in Arena.

Its looking like Kirk may be aware, but never came into direct contact. And considering how much may be happening between now and Arena... entirely possible that it slips his mind over time due to other events as well as the threat dying off and for all intents and purposes not being there to maintain the higher level of preparedness.

This again all fall to one thing. We need to give them more time to tell the story before judging. As it is we're not playing with a full deck as it were. We only saw part of the picture. So it really is NOT fair to judge anything as that would be jumping the gun. We just need to wait and see how this plays out.

Nothing about the Gorn violates canon because... there was nothing TO violate. The Gorn are a clean slate species Alpha Canon wise.

shren#1472 wrote: »

Well this post got out of hand i was hoping people would argue that the developers just create ships and not update the races. but instead turned into a flame post about the show. I thought people would be more accepting to a Gorn change instead of those klingons we got that no one asked for.

Unfortunately people will be people, and some have stronger feelings about subjects. We do have the Gorn Hunter ship in game already, but it would be interesting to see some of the others. And seeing the new Gorn added to STO alongside the current and TOS styles would be awesome, however I'm not QUITE sure how they could handle a playable version right now as the only adult we've seen so far has been in a rather sweet EV suit.

thay8472

They could always say multiple reptile species evolved on Gornar all of which Identify as Gorn. Failing that there are nine planets in the Tau Lacertae system. Maybe these Xeno-Gorns evolved on a different planet and are at the moment the dominant species within the Gorn Hegemony.

As for the Gorn model in STO? I'd rather keep it as it is. I don't like the Xeno-Gorn.

rattler2

thay8472 wrote: »

As for the Gorn model in STO? I'd rather keep it as it is. I don't like the Xeno-Gorn.

Who said anything about replacing? If anything they'd probably be added as an option.

thay8472

rattler2 wrote: »

thay8472 wrote: »

As for the Gorn model in STO? I'd rather keep it as it is. I don't like the Xeno-Gorn.

Who said anything about replacing? If anything they'd probably be added as an option.

The OP.

I don't think they will. None of the current outfits would fit on the Xeno-Gorn.

spiritborn

In regards to the multiple species, the term used for the Gorn "government" is hegemony which implies there's more then 1 faction and that one of those factions holds power over the others (aka has the hegemony), so it's possible that rather single species and nation, the Gorn "nation" is an alliance of various species one of which holds the hegemony over the others and thus is one most often seen by outsiders.

During SNW it's the Xenomorph Gorns and during TOS (possibly due to events that happen during SNW) it's the "guys in rubber suits" Gorn that hold the Hegemony.

rattler2

thay8472 wrote: »

I don't think they will. None of the current outfits would fit on the Xeno-Gorn.

To be fair, technically none of the current outfits were designed with Caitian/Ferasan tails in mind either. *shrug*

psiameese

rattler2 wrote: »

thay8472 wrote: »

As for the Gorn model in STO? I'd rather keep it as it is. I don't like the Xeno-Gorn.

Who said anything about replacing? If anything they'd probably be added as an option.

I'm always in favor of the additional possibilities. I just watched a behind the scenes for the SNW finale. And the fact that the production uses a combination of CGI and modern practical effects is impressive. There was actually a person in a new Gorn bodysuit. Wearing an EV suit. And it's quite effective an approach.

I also note the Hegemony referenced above. Factions make perfect sense. It's really as simple as another faction from the one seen in SNW was responsible for what will happen at Cestus III. Fans have fresh story potential coming our way that would be foolish to not build upon. Both in the series and game productions.

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