Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Jon, players who wouldn't usually play normal difficulty queues do so during events in order to complete the events for the prize. If it feels like "elite stuff" is being done in normal queues I apologize. This is not the intent. I do take steps to minimize monopolization of specific queues by not always using emergency power to weapons, or attack pattern beta, or a firing mode.
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Many players who don't usually play normal difficulty queues also like to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
Deuterium Surplus is a wee bit over rated in my opinion and really only comes in handy for "full mobility" runs of Infected Space. But, it is something that the game has made available so there will be players who keep it handy.
Using an Emergency Conn Hologram is all that's needed to get around a little bit quicker. I think one reason the ECH gets used a lot is that it's so easy to get from the Phoenix store. The ECH to me isn't really about meeting anyone's standards.. it just comes in handy.
Many of the things often mentioned aren't really "elite stuff" but just ways to get around things in the game such as being stuck in red alert so often. Even things like keybinds are often used to make things easier on "not quite as youthful as they used to be" fingers and as a side benefit seem to make gameplay more relaxing and pleasant.
Yes, game play in 2023 isn't quite the same as some of the Star Trek battles we watched on TV in the 1960's.
I can see I'm wasting my energy here - pottsey doesn't see what I'm saying, while DB willfully rejects the idea that respect toward other players might have to flow both ways.
@darkbladejk I have taken the time to respectfully read everything you have posted in this thread carefully. I hate to say this but it is more than abundantly clear that you just do not have a grasp on what the problem is, nor do you have any clue what people have respectfully tried to tell you. Repeatedly.
The only thing that I see here that's abundantly clear Val is you not knowing nearly as much as you pretend to while displaying a self-righteous arrogance and entitlement that if someone disagrees with you that they magically don't understand the problem and only you do. You've more than displayed by your actions that you believe none can disagree with you for any valid reason as in your mind they either need to "learn to read" or "don't understand the problem" as you make excuse after excuse as to why you can't do this that or the other thing, and everyone else should have to play around you and cater to you while you give them nothing in return. Now do you want me to keep going on this or do you want to have an actual discussion?
Repeating this same mantra yet again seals it. You simply do not understand simple human concepts like good sportsmanship and common decency. That much is crystal clear.
What's clear is that you throw around words like decency and sportsmanship but do not practice what you preach at all. You sit here and demand people like myself should have to use lesser builds and nerf ourselves, go without keybinds and all this junk so YOU can have fun and YOU can feel like you participated, while hiding behind the "be a good sport and show some common decency to your team" mantra and refusing to change nothing on your end to help yourself. In other words I have to change for you but you don't have to change anything for me. Then when people like myself call you on your hypocrisy you gaslight everyone by saying "you're just not being a good sport and know how to show common decency."
Do you want to know why I respect colonelmarik in all of this even though I absolutely disagree with him and despise his position? He at least is brave enough to say what he actually wants and isn't trying to hide behind "show some common decency and sportsmanship" where as you are. You've expected everyone else to be responsible for YOUR fun and YOUR feeling like you participated while taking no responsibility for it yourself. In other words you get to fly around and use whatever you want, use whatever build you want, but I have to play with stripped down husks and cater to YOUR playstyle. Get out of here with that garbage.
You say I should practice decency and sportsmanship and use a lesser build for people, go without keybinds and the like so others can "have a chance to play", but won't show me that same decency and sportsmanship by doing everything you can on your end at the same time so you can have a chance to play. If you won't do anything to fix your problem, why are you expecting me to take responsibility for it?
Has it occurred to you that the player you are randomly teamed with might be a new player trying out the content for the first time? You came down from your Elite level into a Normal event TFO, vaped the entire map, removing all chance for them to participate, and want to blame that new player for it, complain to and berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? That is the impression you want a new player to have of the community? Has it ever occurred to you that the player you are randomly teamed with in that Normal TFO you stepped down into may have some kind of physical infirmity that prevents them from playing at higher difficulties? You honestly want to berate and belittle that player to "git gud" and "do everything they can to improve" just to keep up with you? Better yet, wanting to claim that due to them physically not being able to play at your level due to their infirmity is in some way being disrespectful to you? Really?? That is the hill you want to die on? You have lost your sense of sportsmanship, comradery with and respect for your fellow players.
I'm just going to say it dude, stop making excuses because that's all you're doing is making excuses.
The lowest DPS guy in my fleet is at 90k, in his 50s and has schizophrenia along with PTSD and other mental issues from his past jobs. He also does not have the hand-eye coordination or speed some of us "young bucks" do as he would call people like me. If he can figure out how to participate and change his builds around with all of that going on, you who do not have those issues but refuse to change have ZERO excuse. And quite frankly, I find it infuriating that you're now trying to hide behind the "do it for the disabled people" card. You know what happens when this guy in our friend group comes up against something that he physically can't do? He dips out and tells us to keep going instead of expecting us to walk on eggshells around him. I'm sorry for people that have legitimate disabilities and in an ideal world things like that wouldn't exist and everyone would be healthy and have no infirmities of any kind, but we don't live in that ideal world. I'm all for helping people with disabilities compete on an equal level with people who don't, but not at the cost of them being given advantages over the non-disabled people. Examples being modes for colorblind people so they can still play with everyone else without having to redesign the entire game around them.
The only people I have taken issue with are people who say they're experiencing an issue, yet have refused to change anything on their end to do something about it while simultaneously expecting me to reinvent myself to cater to them. Sorry that's not happening, get over it and move on. If you're going to make demands of me...oops requests I mean... so you can feel like you've participated enough, then I also get to make requests of you at the same time. You do not get to have it both ways like you're trying to do. Player A is allowed to have fun. If Player A is going to make requests of Player B, then Player B also gets to make requests of Player A. If Player A refuses to do anything to help himself, why is that Player B's problem?
With all due respect and sad as it is to say, many of the things you have written here and said to others in this thread and the contempt you have shown them is truly appalling. It pains me to say, in my opinion you should not have the privilege of being a moderator for or representative of any community that you show such contempt, such disdain, such disrespect and such vitriol toward. I feel sorry for you. I really do.
Green text next to my name doesn't remove my right to voice my thoughts and opinions as a player. I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions just as you are. If you don't like what I have to say or you disagree, then you're free to dislike it and disagree. You disliking it doesn't make me magically wrong and you magically right. You talk about respect show none.
I will respectfully ask you again, please learn to read.
I'm going to say this once, drop the attitude with suggesting people who disagree with you can't read. I've let it slide a few times, but that stops now. You talk about respecting people, yet disrespect me by calling me illiterate.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I can see I'm wasting my energy here - pottsey doesn't see what I'm saying, while DB willfully rejects the idea that respect toward other players might have to flow both ways.
No he see's what you're saying, he just disagrees from the looks of it. Disagreement doesn't mean he doesn't see it.
As for me rejecting the idea of respect working both ways, never once have I said otherwise. However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate. They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people. They want me to use a lesser build so they can participate and get there in time, but won't even put on a free mobility power or use a free battery for me. If they won't use that mobility power or free battery for me, why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
I've also not suggested anything I wouldn't hold myself to.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
One could say that Normal and Advanced players pay respect to Elite players by staying out of Elite content, because they know they're not ready for it. 🤷♀️
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people...
Yes, you should.
... and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate.
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
You're like that 6th Grader, being allowed to participate in a contest made for 2nd Graders -- because the teacher thought you'd be nice and restrain yourself. Boy, was she wrong, wasn't she?! It's monumentally sad this has to be explained to you even.
They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people.
Utter non-sense. No one gives a flying TRIBBLE (self-censored) what you do in your Elites. No one clearly not at that level tries to even enter those; and when they do, they soon enough give up on Elites, when they realize they chew off a bit more than they could handle.
This is actually the same reason I don't enter Normals: it's simply lame trying to get one's jollies off stomping on either newbies, or people who can't afford the same gear as me. If you want to impress someone, impress your peers!
why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
No, equality is you playing at your own level. Or showing common courtesy restraint when playing at lower levels.
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
If you have having problems keeping up with players and getting to location before the NPC is blown up there are other solutions like a Prevailing Innervated Engine which triggers 350% flight speed and turn rate on bridge officer powers and there are different engine types for different powers. Along with all other combos likes doffs and traits that interact. Deuterium Surplus is just one option.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Along with being hard to pull off I don’t even think the majority of the other players was bothered about the high DPS. I am not even convinced there is a real problem outside of some rare outliner cases.
Take a look at Valreah graph where he was saying high DPSers are causing problems in the TFO run and forcing the other players to change there game style. Looking into the data that was not the case the high DPSer had no negative impact on the group, there was no evidence of forcing of play styles, no evidence of the casuals dropping in performance, no evidence the casuals couldn’t take part. Yet the high DPSers was being blamed for effectively doing the same thing the causals where doing.
As a high DPSers we are allowed to have a relaxing game as well. Micromanaging our self down is not relaxing or fun.
“Repeating this same mantra yet again seals it. You simply do not understand simple human concepts like good sportsmanship and common decency. That much is crystal clear.”
He does understand, what you don’t seem to understand is you are going against good sportsmanship and common decency from our point of view. Take that graph you posted you are saying the top DPS player should change his setup, stop having fun and going against good sportsmanship and common decency by changing their core build and playstyle to suit your own personal needs against his own needs all for what to us appears to be an arbitrary reason on your behalf. An arbitrary reason that doesn’t even seem to be correct as the data is not showing what you describe as happening.
In which case if it’s not happening then you are making a player change his playstyle over no real reason. What’s worse is the other teammate might not even have a problem and if that’s the case the top DPSers is accommodating you personally. That is not good sportsmanship or common decency.
Plus why are you so insistent the top DPSers has to accommodate you by not vaporising everything. But the 4 causal players are allowed to keep vaporising everything just the same way? It’s a double standard. Your own graph seems to show the top DPSers was not stopping the other 4 causals from taking part, not stopped them playing and not lowered there DPS and not made them change there playstyle. So I don’t even know what your problem is anymore. You seem to be just picking on top DPSers as you are stuck in a thought pattern. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if you ran a Red Alert see everything get vaporised then blame the top DPSers even if there was none in the group and it was all done by the everyday casual players. That is how it feels at the moment.
“You came down from your Elite level into a Normal event TFO, vaped the entire map,”
As I showed the majority of the time that happens the map is vaped it is not the Elite player going into normal. Yet you seem dead locked on focusing on the Elite player being at fault. What about the majority of the every day players who are vaping the entire map? Why are they allowed to do that but the person you see as the Elite player cannot? If the casuals are not allowed to do that then why are you focused on the Elite player instead of saying all players vaping the map. Elite players are a minority there are barely any of us compared to causals. High DPSers are even more rare then Elite players.
Your own graph showed that the high DPSer downgrading to a lower end map did not impact what so ever the team in a negative way, nor did they remove the chance for the everyday player to participate. My own graph showed the same that when I bumped up my DPS the player near me did not get pushed down but raised up. Another player in this thread said the same they noticed when every they are near top high DPSers their own performance gets better and the best runs they had was with high DPSers being in the group. The experience seems to be the opposite to what you are saying. The high DPSer is not forcing the casual to not take part but often (not always) helping them take part more.
Now I admit there are some extremely rare outliner cases that do cause problems. But we are not talking about those. We are talking about the everyday runs. Not the once in a blue moon event. You seem to feel like it’s a problem but when we look at the data the problem is no there. Just look at your graph.
As for “berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? “ I do not agree with berating but the data we have so far the only people to not participate did not because they did not do enough and did not get good enough to a basic standard. That has nothing to do with a high DPSers being in the team. Now those players don’t deserve to be berated but we also shouldn’t be blaming the high DPSer because the DPSer was not the reason the player got hit with an AFK in the data I gathered.
“The data any of us have shown in this thread is less than a mere drop of a drop of a drop of a drop of water. None of us can claim that its contents are representative of the entire ocean. Not even remotely close.”
We can extrapolate the data by looking at multiple sample points over multiple days, from multiple runs and if you post your data which I asked but you refused to post the DMG graph then we have data from multiple people as well further expanding the data points. If they all match or show a general pattern which they seem to be the case so far. Then even if the data is incomplete, we can build a reasonable picture up of what I happening.
It doesn’t matter if it’s not a perfect capture of all the data. The fact that what I am talking about shows up as often as it does proves what I was saying. Also, if your post the data I asked for it proves at least in that graph you posted that the high DPS is not doing what you say they are doing. They are not negatively impacting the players at least in that run. Even though you blamed them in that run. Have you even looked at what I have asked and checked if I was right?
Look at it from our point of view. We have multiple data samples going against what you are saying. So far zero samples of data showing what you are talking about even your own data is not showing what you are saying. Yet you seem to want to destroy high DPSers builds, destroy high DPSers fun, ruin their play style all so you can feel better over a problem I am not convinced is even real or happening outside of some extremely rare outliner cases.
If there was some wide spread evidence of a problem, I would do what I could to not be part of the problem. Based on the data so far, I am confident that the majority of players in random groups have no problems from the odd high DPSers being in the group in general content, excluding some extremely rare outliner cases.
@valoreah I am not going to debate semantics with you. It doesn't matter if you outright said illiterate or "learn to read", you know what was said. Now stop.
Now if you have additional data you would like to provide that you believe supports your claims of high DPSers ruining the fun of others, lets see it. Since by your own admission we don't have the full picture, if you are able to provide a decent amount of evidence and multiple points showing high DPSers preventing people from being able to play, I will concede the point and advocate changes. So far you've shown one graph that which did not back up your point at all, but showed the folks in the run were still able to participate at damage ranges typical for the community at large. If you're going to say/hint at this being a big problem, then get me some evidence of it.
Yes, you can turn a lot of that off in STO. Absolutely you can. You can make some very, very, very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves too.
Count to ten before starting your full impulse mad rush zerg to obliterate everything in sight
Forego using keybinds
Do not click on Deuterium Surplus
If you see another teammate engaged a target, move on to another target and let them handle it
These are just a few very, very, very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all.
Actually, I do show other players decency and sportsmanship. Scroll up. As far as "doing everything I can" to show players like yourself some courtesy, I already do that. I do not queue for public Elite TFOs where my skills and build would not be much help to the team and would likely cause everyone to fail the match. My builds are inadequate for that level of content. I will happily sit on the bench for Elite level content so all of you Elite players can have the ball all you like and get a chance to play. Like several others have repeated in this thread, my Captains are all built for running on Advanced level. That is where I find the happy medium between too easy and too grindy. With that said, I can grasp the concept that my builds made for Advanced level play are far, far, far beyond what is necessary for Normal difficulty. Knowing that going in I am stepping down in difficulty level (which is a key component of the overall issue here), I will adjust my play to accommodate others on the team who may not be at the same level so they can enjoy themselves too. I absolutely will not instantly vaporize the map because I can, then berate them or demand they make changes of any kind to accommodate my higher performing build or in any way suggest to them they "git gud." That is just me though. If you do not want to behave the same way, go for it. I do not think that is very courteous or sportsmanlike to your fellow players when you are stepping down in difficulty, but that is just opinion.
It doesn't matter whether you call it a demand or a "suggestion", the result is the same. You're advocating that I make "very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves to" and "very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all." So yes you are in fact wanting me to change how I am playing and walk on eggshells around others so they can feel like they've participated even though the data we have shows they are participating. You are wanting me to forgo the use of keybinds, don't use Deuterium, and all of these arbitrary things to micromanage myself into lower DPS, yet wanting to allow those other people to use Deuterium, keybinds, and everything else.
This is why I asked you specifically, if you are going to "suggest" I make those changes in the name of decency and sportsmanship should I decide to step into advanced for once, where is the equal sportsmanship and decency shown to me? What changes are they also going to make so they can participate? The sportsmanship and decency you've been talking about goes both ways. If they want me to change for them, I'm going to ask for equal changes on their part as that is equality. You said that when going into advanced you choose not to vaporize the map purely because you can, and you adjust your playstyle because you believe it to be more sportsman like. If you think that's something you need to do for yourself, and that's something you are doing of your own accord, then do it. If you want to alter how you play of your own free will because you think it creates a better environment for everyone else, then more power to you and I wish you the best in that. It's certainly your right to hold back if that's what you want to do.
You are allowed to have a fun and relaxed experience in game, that's true. Likewise I am also allowed to have a fun and relaxed experience in game, and micromanaging myself every second so I'm not going over someone's arbitrary standard of too much DPS is not fun. It's already been shown to you that people with DPS ranges that are average for the community are the ones doing the vaping. If your problem is with high DPSers supposedly vaping maps, why are you not wanting those average players to tone it back some as well? Because so far all I'm seeing from where I sit is a vendetta against high DPS people who aren't the problem by all of the data we've seen in here so far.
I used to compete semi-professionally in MTG tournaments years ago. When going to tournaments, the larger tournaments especially, you would encounter a variety of different decks and people with different levels of power and skill in the game. Anyone was allowed to sign up for these tournaments so long as they had legal deck for the format. There were times at those tournaments that I would blow people out in only a couple of turns, and likewise get blown out in a couple of turns. To want me to use a less powerful build, forgo keybinds and the like, is like someone coming to one of those MTG tournaments and then wanting people to use lesser decks next time instead of them changing their own deck around to compete better.
Again your fun is not wrong. Likewise my fun is not wrong either. Both of us have a right to enjoy the game and have fun with it. If they want to bring their lower powered builds into runs as they have more fun in those types of builds, then I wish them the best. Likewise if I want to step down from elites for awhile and have my happy medium, then I am entitled to have fun doing so, yet you seem to take issue with me doing that as though I'm persecuting the other people in the run by simply existing on the same map as them. If folks don't want to change their builds around because they like where they're at, they're free to stay as they are, but it's beyond hypocritical to want me to change my build while they are not willing to change theirs. If they are not willing to do something about their problem, why is it suddenly my responsibility to change for them?
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
No one is asking me to use lesser builds and hold back eh? explain the bits in bold below then.
Yes, you can turn a lot of that off in STO. Absolutely you can. You can make some very, very, very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves too.
(...) These are just a few very, very, very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all.
Because that looks an awful lot like asking me to hold back so others can participate and "have the ball". The decency you talk about goes both ways. Not all of us so called high DPSers go out of our way to shame people like you seem to want to think. 99% of the time I don't even say anything beyond the customary "gg" in chat when I'm in advanced runs as I'm zoned out listening to music.
Your so called 6th grader analogy fails because you're implying by necessity that only certain people are allowed in the lower difficulties, yet have chided me for suggesting people meet minimum standards set forth by the game itself.
Utter non-sense. No one gives a flying TRIBBLE (self-censored) what you do in your Elites. No one clearly not at that level tries to even enter those; and when they do, they soon enough give up on Elites, when they realize they chew off a bit more than they could handle.
This is actually the same reason I don't enter Normals: it's simply lame trying to get one's jollies off stomping on either newbies, or people who can't afford the same gear as me. If you want to impress someone, impress your peers!
Again show me the data that backs up the claim people are being prevented from competing and playing. Show me the data that demonstrates so called elites are coming into normals and "stomping on newbies". Because so far that's not been the case. If you have data to show otherwise lets see it.
Also who said I play to impress you or anyone else? To be perfectly blunt, you're not even remotely on my radar of people I would care about impressing. As I've said, I don't go into normal modes unless I'm forced to out of necessity. Otherwise I stick to advanced and elite. Did you stop think that maybe, just maybe I'm in advanced because I wanted a couple runs of the happy medium before heading into an elite run again? Or maybe I just wanted to fly around in a particular ship and pew pew things?
No, equality is you playing at your own level. Or showing common courtesy restraint when playing at lower levels.
Ah, so I'm not allowed to step into advanced because it's below my level? Yet you want to get onto me about lockouts.
I previously asked you if you were willing to add some mobility to your build so you can get to targets and participate more and you said you wouldn't be because you like where you are. So again you want me to change my build and micromanage the fun out of my game for your benefit, but don't want to change anything on your side at the same time. Sorry not happening. If you are not willing to change anything on your side to help yourself, why should I have to change anything for you?
Decency works both ways. If you're going to expect me to change something for you in the name of decency, then you also need to have the decency to change stuff for me. Otherwise you're expecting special treatment and I'm not playing that game. If you know you're having trouble getting to stuff before it's all blown up but aren't willing to change a single thing to do something about it, then you are the problem from then on, not the rest of the team. You're expecting to change nothing, yet have an equal outcome to everyone else, sorry but it doesn't work that way. The group doesn't revolve around you and your subjective definitions of what fun is. Those other group members have just as much right to a relaxed and fun game experience as you do with neither side's fun trumping the other.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
No one is asking me to use lesser builds and hold back eh? explain the bits in bold below then.
Yes, you can turn a lot of that off in STO. Absolutely you can. You can make some very, very, very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves too.
(...) These are just a few very, very, very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all.
Because that looks an awful lot like asking me to hold back so others can participate and "have the ball".
Exactly, no one is asking you to use lesser builds and hold back... except for when you enter a TFO below your level. And even then nobody said it's mandatory. And here's where 'common courtesy', 'decency', and 'sportmanship' come in. You do it, not because someone makes you, but simply because you want to be polite.
Your so called 6th grader analogy fails because you're implying by necessity that only certain people are allowed in the lower difficulties, yet have chided me for suggesting people meet minimum standards set forth by the game itself.
No, my 6th Grader example showed that yes, you are allowed into a lower level, but you can still play nice there; not because I say so, or Velorah, but simply because YOU realize it's the decent thing to do towards people significanyly weaker than you -- who are playing at THEIR appropriate level.
Also who said I play to impress you or anyone else? To be perfectly blunt, you're not even remotely on my radar of people I would care about impressing. As I've said, I don't go into normal modes unless I'm forced to out of necessity.
So, you even go into Normals?! For shame, Sir, for shame!
Otherwise I stick to advanced and elite. Did you stop think that maybe, just maybe I'm in advanced because I wanted a couple runs of the happy medium before heading into an elite run again?
And when you do, you can use any of Velorah's suggested, self-imposed nerfs, so as not to spoil the fun for everyone else.
I previously asked you if you were willing to add some mobility to your build so you can get to targets and participate more and you said you wouldn't be because you like where you are. So again you want me to change my build and micromanage the fun out of my game for your benefit, but don't want to change anything on your side at the same time. Sorry not happening. If you are not willing to change anything on your side to help yourself, why should I have to change anything for you?
Because you are the one coming down from a higher level; so the onus is on you to 'behave' at significant lower levels.
Decency works both ways. If you're going to expect me to change something for you in the name of decency, then you also need to have the decency to change stuff for me.
Only if I were to enter your Elite realm. Then, and ONLY then, would it be reasonable for you to ask that I make changes to my build, to accommodate the Elite team. But, to be perfectly blunt, you're not even remotely on my radar of people I would care about impressing. As I said, I'm happy where I'm at, at my Advanced level.
If you know you're having trouble getting to stuff before it's all blown up but aren't willing to change a single thing to do something about it, then you are the problem from then on, not the rest of the team.
LOL. I don't have trouble getting to stuff before it's all blown up, except when Elite players show up, disturbing the balance of the Advanced TFO. It's like a 6th Grader telling the 2nd Grader he has trouble with spelling, simply because the 6th Grader can do it faster and better. It don't work that way.
As I see it, this whole thread has devolved into some sort of personal war between a few individuals, as it is usual for threads identical to this. Plus very problematic fact is that a few agitators brougt this far ehough for moderators to start and fight eachother, while having the nerve to suggest that one of them lose their position as a moderator and sweet talking to the other one. How about we put a stop to this, hm? It's disgusting and makes me sick in my stomach.
p.s.: whoever made the comment, that getting the deutirium surplus equals having a second job: thanks for that, you made me laugh my belly out for real. We should definetly comply to your style of game, my friend.
Seriously, without decent mobility, how do you contribute to a tfo like Gravity kills? You like... go in there unprepared and don't contribute and make the team lose the bonus marks (for completing the tfo inside the time limit)? Is that what you do? And you come unprepared to Undine assault, again bring nothing to the table and make the team lose the bonus multiplier? Is...Is this how you do your playing?
As I see it, this whole thread has devolved into some sort of personal war between a few individuals, as it is usual for threads identical to this. Plus very problematic fact is that a few agitators brougt this far ehough for moderators to start and fight eachother, while having the nerve to suggest that one of them lose their position as a moderator and sweet talking to the other one. How about we put a stop to this, hm? It's disgusting and makes me sick in my stomach.
p.s.: whoever made the comment, that getting the deutirium surplus equals having a second job: thanks for that, you made me laugh my belly out for real. We should definetly comply to your style of game, my friend.
Seriously, without decent mobility, how do you contribute to a tfo like Gravity kills? You like... go in there unprepared and don't contribute and make the team lose the bonus marks (for completing the tfo inside the time limit)? Is that what you do? And you come unprepared to Undine assault, again bring nothing to the table and make the team lose the bonus multiplier? Is...Is this how you do your playing?
The whole argument has now devolved into 'Anyone not willing to slot Deuterium is not contributing properly to the game!' Brilliant summation! What would we do without this wise parting shot?!
As for moderators, nobody is 'making' them do anything; there are adults who can decide, like anyone else, to what degree they wish to participate. Being a moderator myself (on a different forum, of course), I've always struggled with the question as to how one can jump into the fray, and still maintain sufficiently even-handed decorum for a person in that position. Watching the thread here, I am only strengthened in my belief, that balancing the two is not an easy feat. But that too is for themselves to decide.
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
If you have having problems keeping up with players and getting to location before the NPC is blown up there are other solutions like a Prevailing Innervated Engine which triggers 350% flight speed and turn rate on bridge officer powers and there are different engine types for different powers. Along with all other combos likes doffs and traits that interact. Deuterium Surplus is just one option.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Have you tried using an alt, that way you don't have to change your build because you'll have another toon with a completely different build, seems like it's either that or Nerfs.
instead of making more content that is geared for super high dps players that the average player cannot enjoy, how about a "casual" difficulty setting to accomodate those who aren't married to the game?
instead of making more content that is geared for super high dps players that the average player cannot enjoy, how about a "casual" difficulty setting to accomodate those who aren't married to the game?
I say there's plenty of casual content; after all, it's a casual game. Instead, I'm a huge proponent of offering Elite versions of all TFO's. By all means, let everyone run their preferred TFO's at their own level!
yes, i agree that the tfo's should all have an elite option, but that will not stop some folks from running their super ships in lower settings. a casual setting with some sort of restrictions would allow new players and those who aren't here to be "uber" a place to play "casually" is all i'm saying. make it ridiculously easy with very low rewards to keep the ubers in their lane.
So while some people are arguing over semantics, i tried to get two more friends back into playing STO.
They both quit the same day. Just like the last 4 i tried to get in. Both of them had decent Fleet T5 ships that were "Top of the line" 4 years ago. Both were more than capable of running ADV Conduit, Khitomer etc.
We all decided to go into NORMAL (i repeat...NORMAL) level Conduit, three of us, and two pugs. Both pugs were flying ships the size of shuttles compared to the cruisers we were in, and i instantly knew where this was going. The map was wiped in just over a minute.
"Don't worry folks! It's just a one off!".
It happened again in Khitomer. We took a break, went to Advanced and it happened again, went down back to normal, Khitomer popped and guess what...yeah, it happened again.
My two friends branded STO a P2W crapshoot...and quit. While people are in here posting walls arguing over semantics, I'm on the ground trying to get old whales back into this game, and NONE OF THEM are willing to keep playing. The gulf between "Elite" and "Casual" is so vast that it is impacting new and returning players, ive seen it happen first hand SIX times now.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
yes, i agree that the tfo's should all have an elite option, but that will not stop some folks from running their super ships in lower settings.
Well, you captured the essence of the debate.
... a casual setting with some sort of restrictions would allow new players and those who aren't here to be "uber" a place to play "casually" is all i'm saying. make it ridiculously easy with very low rewards to keep the ubers in their lane.
I rather just see ppl embrace the notion of good sportmanship, and not troll lower levels, even when no technical restrictions are in place. You really can't codify decency: game restrictions will just serve to enrage them further. I just hope ppl reading this thread will come to realize that respecting each other's skill (and the level they choose to play at) is the most benign thing to do.
However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
The "respect" is that I don't enter queues I'm not ready for, then whine because I wasn't ready. That's why I stick to Normal difficulty. The respect I would request in return is that you keep your ultra-DPS builds in Advanced and Elite, where you designed them, not down here in my Normal slum. Apparently, however, this is too much to ask. And that's my final word on the topic, because I have more interesting things to do, like maybe actually play the game (still have to pick out a ship to be RRW Tovan Khev XXXII, for instance.)
As @darkbladejk very correctly pointed out, having green forum names does not mean they cannot voice their opinion. They have every right to do so. As far as my "sweet talking" @baddmoonrizin, by my estimation based on her posts, she very clearly understands the overall problem, what other people are saying and has a firm grasp on sportsmanship and common courtesy toward other players. To me, that does deserve praise. I also believe that people who cannot grasp concepts of common courtesy and sportsmanship should not be representing the community as that is antithetical to the community. Feel free to disagree.
Same here. Haven't posted here in a while, as I had a few run-ins with BMR. Nevertheless I was quick to commend her here on her lucid understanding of the situation. Sometimes posts like hers are really needed, as you start to think "Am I really the only one seeing things this way?"
As to who should be a moderator, I fear that's venturing into dangerous territory. Suffice to say, that when it comes to staff, I feel personally more comfortable with someone who is repectful to both sides, promotes fairness, and reminds us we should try and get along, than someone who openly shows disdain for 90% of the playerbase. Maybe it isn't fair for me to think that way, as moderators too should feel free to voice their opinion unencumberedly. As I said before, it's a tight rope one must walk, but ultimately really not my call. I don't work for Cryptic, and have no say in the matter -- and maybe that's for the better.
However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
The "respect" is that I don't enter queues I'm not ready for, then whine because I wasn't ready. That's why I stick to Normal difficulty. The respect I would request in return is that you keep your ultra-DPS builds in Advanced and Elite, where you designed them, not down here in my Normal slum. Apparently, however, this is too much to ask.
^^ Very much this!
Also, I simply don't enter Elites, because I consider it rude, a-social even, to drag down other people's game. Their Team has formed with ppl who belong at that level (at least that is my presumption). It would deem it very unsportsmanlike of me to A expect to be carried (sans a prior arrangement), and B potentially -- and de facto almost deliberately -- causing them to fail their Objectives. This reasoning, for me, works in both directions. I do not venture into Normals for that selfsame reason. As a new Klingon player, I am proud to say "There's no honor in that." The whole 'Do unto others' thing, if you will.
The "respect" is that I don't enter queues I'm not ready for, then whine because I wasn't ready. That's why I stick to Normal difficulty. The respect I would request in return is that you keep your ultra-DPS builds in Advanced and Elite, where you designed them, not down here in my Normal slum. Apparently, however, this is too much to ask.
Well said.
(still have to pick out a ship to be RRW Tovan Khev XXXII, for instance.)
Jon I have lost all respect for you on choosing this ship name so frequently.
Kidding of course!
Tovan Khev is on my XXXII's attempt to be thrown out of an airlock.
As probably every other player, i've started out as a newbie with a silly build. I had everything from mk XII rare mission weapons (a colorful mix!), i had my defense boosting consoles (dear lord...), i had the presidio as my first ship,... Tbh i had huge trouble doing some of the content, i've struggled with a single galor class cruiser for 30 minutes (and failed), tzenkethi ships were basicaly unkillable for me. Like now, it was same back then - every now and then some guy showed up and absolutely ruined everything in sight (not sure, but i think the firemode of choice then was CRF). I don't wanna type a log here, but my point is - we all had this jurney, from start till now. I admit that much has changed, the most notable change being the endeavor system, which needs to have some sort of a shortcut. But minus that, not much has changed. Starting this game has the same, high, difficulty treshold, as it ever did.
Now you can believe me or not - but i never had a problem with the skill gap in this game. I didn't have it as a silly newb and i don't have it now, as a silly newb with better stuff. So to make one thing clear, not every newbie sees a problem with the state of things. Not even me, who usualy hates being the bottom feeder (this is from my past-selfs point of view, to be clear).
Ok I got bored while typing this, so let's fast forward, pretend i was typing about my past adventures, failing at this game and not complaining about it...
DPS is not to high, but the content WORTH PLAYING is to easy. While i have no clue, what a high DPS player does in a normal mode map, i can tell you why you see them in advanced tfos: There is no elite RANDOM option and RANDOMS are the way to go, if you wanna git gud. Ok sorry, i know you don't wanna read these words, but hear me out - RANDOMS can make you progress much faster, than any other option (elite being the absolute worst for resource accumulation). You get at least 2x more dil per random vs any other option and you get marks of choice, which can be used for crafting costly rep gear or again for dil. IO can't speak for others, but i play this game for fun and my fun is to progress and constantly better myself. And the most optimal route is clearly playing random advanced tfos. That or admirality, but one of the DEVS said that admirality grinding is kinda weird thing to do (I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP, i've read it on their twitter page a few months ago) and i can't argue with devs.
So it's realy quite easy - make elites worth playing, somehow. But i can tell you straight away - it will have to be good, because the fail condition is still there and some of us are not ready to risk our time for a failed TFO, a TFO which failed probably because someone unprepared joined (someone without deuterium surplus :> ).
To be clear, I am not fighting my compatriot, darkblade. We disagree. We are debating. I bear him no ill will or intent. I know that he bears none towards me. We talk almost daily, realtime outside of the game and this forum. He knows me real life, I know him real life. There is no animosity there. I feel for him, but I have to admit that I believe emotion has blinded him to certain aspects of this debate.
With that being said, I am going to caution everyone in this thread, moderators included, including myself. This is clearly an emotionally provoking topic for some. Be respectful of one another in word and action. Moving forward from here, if you see behavior that you feel is out of line, even if it is a moderator, including myself, call it out. No one is above the forum rules. If you feel it is a severe enough infraction, then I encourage you to take it to our Community Manager, Ambassador Kael. This has been a good discussion. Let's please continue to be courteous and civil towards one another. Thank you.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I'm not liking the tone of this thread in general and i'm liking it less when moderators are actually threatening users to shut down a direction of a conversation because they personally don't like it and have the power to use. Civility has gone out the window when i saw this i'm sorry to say.
i can't take part in this thread, it's tainted now.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
To be clear, I am not fighting my compatriot, darkblade. We disagree. We are debating. I bear him no ill will or intent. I know that he bears none towards me. We talk almost daily, realtime outside of the game and this forum. He knows me real life, I know him real life. There is no animosity there. I feel for him, but I have to admit that I believe emotion has blinded him to certain aspects of this debate.
With that being said, I am going to caution everyone in this thread, moderators included, including myself. This is clearly an emotionally provoking topic for some. Be respectful of one another in word and action. Moving forward from here, if you see behavior that you feel is out of line, even if it is a moderator, including myself, call it out. No one is above the forum rules. If you feel it is a severe enough infraction, then I encourage you to take it to our Community Manager, Ambassador Kael. This has been a good discussion. Let's please continue to be courteous and civil towards one another. Thank you.
Thanks for this clarification.
I'm actually done with this convo, I think. We all seem to be going in circles, looks like. I think I made 'my' point sufficiently clear; and I already stated, in my first post in this thread, iirc, there was a lot of 'anger' in this thread. That rarely ends well.
I would like to say, not having read absolutely everyone's post, but getting the general idea, yes it would be ideal to have elite versions of all missions, however there's also a contrast to that as well, there's not always teammates to start elite missions, so most often advanced and even sometimes normal we are forced to go, it could be a mandatory objective that could be forcing us into lower content, that isn't our fault, and we shouldn't have to break something(s) on our ship to slow down progress, that being said I do agree it's unfair to a point that the content can be done so quickly, then again, if I had the option of a well populated elite set of missions I would gladly go there. But at this juncture, it isn't feasible, the great news is that the missions don't really have that much cool down and everyone gets rewarded.
Is it "micromanaging" to ask you to keep your Elite stuff up in the Elite TFOs, instead of coming into Normal queues just so you can feel like a god amongst mere mortals?
Meanwhile, the only suggestions you've given me (or anyone else, for that matter) is how to micromanage our own experiences to make them more like yours. Maybe I don't want to strive to be the very best, like no one ever was. Maybe I just want to play a nice relaxing game.
Oh, and I just went and read the thread about how to get Deuterium Surplus. So, to meet your standards on any toon I want to run a Normal TFO with, I need to get to level 65, then complete the Specters arc, then go run a patrol in the Alhambra system, then have my Engineering to at least 5 and have whatever raw materials are needed to make the batteries, and then I have to craft as many of the batteries as I might happen to need. On each toon.
Dude, if I wanted another job, I'd go get one that paid me actual cash money.
If you have having problems keeping up with players and getting to location before the NPC is blown up there are other solutions like a Prevailing Innervated Engine which triggers 350% flight speed and turn rate on bridge officer powers and there are different engine types for different powers. Along with all other combos likes doffs and traits that interact. Deuterium Surplus is just one option.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Have you tried using an alt, that way you don't have to change your build because you'll have another toon with a completely different build, seems like it's either that or Nerfs.
Not keen on alts, I did that for the recruitments and didn't really enjoy it past the first run though. I prefer to focus and stay with my 1 main toon. Plus all the account unlocks over the years are automatically enabled and boosted my alt so its not like they are low DPS. Its impossible for me to go back to the starting DPS I was 10+ years ago. There is no way to switch off the account boosts once unlocked.
The respect I would request in return is that you keep your ultra-DPS builds in Advanced and Elite, where you designed them, not down here in my Normal slum. Apparently, however, this is too much to ask.
Yes it is to much to ask for the reasons I gave you before. One of which is its impossible to switch off many of the DPS boosts once they have been unlocked. Even if I went back to my old normal loadout from 10 years ago I would be doing something like triple the DPS I did back when it was created. There is nothing I can do about that.
@pottsey5g I could be wrong, but what I believe @jonsills is asking that if there is an Advanced or Elite option available for the content to run, could you run one of those in lieu of Normal difficulty? For event content when there is only one difficulty, there is nothing you can do there as it is the only choice available.
Ideally yes I would stick to Elite. The problem is my main playtime is when the server population is at the low point in the day due to the timezone I am in. Very often I will tick, Normal, Advanced, Elite for a single TFO and go with which ever pops first even that can take a while. There are also no Random option for Elites which I think is a mistake. At this point of the day its not that bad and I could stick to Adv/Elite but 7am/8am GMT its way harder to get into an Elite group. Often I walk home for lunch with only a 30min playtime. It kind of limits my options at least at that time of the day. Once the US has woken up I find it way easier to stick to Elite groups.
The "respect" is that I don't enter queues I'm not ready for, then whine because I wasn't ready. That's why I stick to Normal difficulty. The respect I would request in return is that you keep your ultra-DPS builds in Advanced and Elite, where you designed them, not down here in my Normal slum. Apparently, however, this is too much to ask.
Well said.
(still have to pick out a ship to be RRW Tovan Khev XXXII, for instance.)
Jon I have lost all respect for you on choosing this ship name so frequently.
Kidding of course!
It's going to be the 32nd ship commanded by Adm. Tovan Khev, with his bridge crew - Tovan Khev2, Tovan Khev3, Rinna Khev, and the Reman engineer Rinna NotKhev.
Comments
Jon, players who wouldn't usually play normal difficulty queues do so during events in order to complete the events for the prize. If it feels like "elite stuff" is being done in normal queues I apologize. This is not the intent. I do take steps to minimize monopolization of specific queues by not always using emergency power to weapons, or attack pattern beta, or a firing mode.
Many players who don't usually play normal difficulty queues also like to play a nice relaxing game.
Deuterium Surplus is a wee bit over rated in my opinion and really only comes in handy for "full mobility" runs of Infected Space. But, it is something that the game has made available so there will be players who keep it handy.
Using an Emergency Conn Hologram is all that's needed to get around a little bit quicker. I think one reason the ECH gets used a lot is that it's so easy to get from the Phoenix store. The ECH to me isn't really about meeting anyone's standards.. it just comes in handy.
Many of the things often mentioned aren't really "elite stuff" but just ways to get around things in the game such as being stuck in red alert so often. Even things like keybinds are often used to make things easier on "not quite as youthful as they used to be" fingers and as a side benefit seem to make gameplay more relaxing and pleasant.
Yes, game play in 2023 isn't quite the same as some of the Star Trek battles we watched on TV in the 1960's.
The only thing that I see here that's abundantly clear Val is you not knowing nearly as much as you pretend to while displaying a self-righteous arrogance and entitlement that if someone disagrees with you that they magically don't understand the problem and only you do. You've more than displayed by your actions that you believe none can disagree with you for any valid reason as in your mind they either need to "learn to read" or "don't understand the problem" as you make excuse after excuse as to why you can't do this that or the other thing, and everyone else should have to play around you and cater to you while you give them nothing in return. Now do you want me to keep going on this or do you want to have an actual discussion?
What's clear is that you throw around words like decency and sportsmanship but do not practice what you preach at all. You sit here and demand people like myself should have to use lesser builds and nerf ourselves, go without keybinds and all this junk so YOU can have fun and YOU can feel like you participated, while hiding behind the "be a good sport and show some common decency to your team" mantra and refusing to change nothing on your end to help yourself. In other words I have to change for you but you don't have to change anything for me. Then when people like myself call you on your hypocrisy you gaslight everyone by saying "you're just not being a good sport and know how to show common decency."
Do you want to know why I respect colonelmarik in all of this even though I absolutely disagree with him and despise his position? He at least is brave enough to say what he actually wants and isn't trying to hide behind "show some common decency and sportsmanship" where as you are. You've expected everyone else to be responsible for YOUR fun and YOUR feeling like you participated while taking no responsibility for it yourself. In other words you get to fly around and use whatever you want, use whatever build you want, but I have to play with stripped down husks and cater to YOUR playstyle. Get out of here with that garbage.
You say I should practice decency and sportsmanship and use a lesser build for people, go without keybinds and the like so others can "have a chance to play", but won't show me that same decency and sportsmanship by doing everything you can on your end at the same time so you can have a chance to play. If you won't do anything to fix your problem, why are you expecting me to take responsibility for it?
I'm just going to say it dude, stop making excuses because that's all you're doing is making excuses.
The lowest DPS guy in my fleet is at 90k, in his 50s and has schizophrenia along with PTSD and other mental issues from his past jobs. He also does not have the hand-eye coordination or speed some of us "young bucks" do as he would call people like me. If he can figure out how to participate and change his builds around with all of that going on, you who do not have those issues but refuse to change have ZERO excuse. And quite frankly, I find it infuriating that you're now trying to hide behind the "do it for the disabled people" card. You know what happens when this guy in our friend group comes up against something that he physically can't do? He dips out and tells us to keep going instead of expecting us to walk on eggshells around him. I'm sorry for people that have legitimate disabilities and in an ideal world things like that wouldn't exist and everyone would be healthy and have no infirmities of any kind, but we don't live in that ideal world. I'm all for helping people with disabilities compete on an equal level with people who don't, but not at the cost of them being given advantages over the non-disabled people. Examples being modes for colorblind people so they can still play with everyone else without having to redesign the entire game around them.
The only people I have taken issue with are people who say they're experiencing an issue, yet have refused to change anything on their end to do something about it while simultaneously expecting me to reinvent myself to cater to them. Sorry that's not happening, get over it and move on. If you're going to make demands of me...oops requests I mean... so you can feel like you've participated enough, then I also get to make requests of you at the same time. You do not get to have it both ways like you're trying to do. Player A is allowed to have fun. If Player A is going to make requests of Player B, then Player B also gets to make requests of Player A. If Player A refuses to do anything to help himself, why is that Player B's problem?
Green text next to my name doesn't remove my right to voice my thoughts and opinions as a player. I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions just as you are. If you don't like what I have to say or you disagree, then you're free to dislike it and disagree. You disliking it doesn't make me magically wrong and you magically right. You talk about respect show none.
I'm going to say this once, drop the attitude with suggesting people who disagree with you can't read. I've let it slide a few times, but that stops now. You talk about respecting people, yet disrespect me by calling me illiterate.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
As for me rejecting the idea of respect working both ways, never once have I said otherwise. However I have to ask, where is the respect for people like myself?
People talk about how folks like myself should "show decency" to other people and use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate, yet won't show me respect enough to do everything they can on their end simultaneously so they can participate. They want everyone else to change for them and their fun, while stomping all over the fun of those other people. They want me to use a lesser build so they can participate and get there in time, but won't even put on a free mobility power or use a free battery for me. If they won't use that mobility power or free battery for me, why should I use a lesser build for them? If they get to make "requests" of me I get to make requests of them, that is equality.
I've also not suggested anything I wouldn't hold myself to.
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Yes, you should.
At this point, I get the impression you're just wilfully misconstruing everyone else's argument. No one is asking you to 'use lesser builds and hold back so others can participate.' That is all a strawman. When you descent from your high Elites, though, and enter a Normal or Advanced queue, then most certainly yes, you should "show decency" to other people.
You're like that 6th Grader, being allowed to participate in a contest made for 2nd Graders -- because the teacher thought you'd be nice and restrain yourself. Boy, was she wrong, wasn't she?! It's monumentally sad this has to be explained to you even.
Utter non-sense. No one gives a flying TRIBBLE (self-censored) what you do in your Elites. No one clearly not at that level tries to even enter those; and when they do, they soon enough give up on Elites, when they realize they chew off a bit more than they could handle.
This is actually the same reason I don't enter Normals: it's simply lame trying to get one's jollies off stomping on either newbies, or people who can't afford the same gear as me. If you want to impress someone, impress your peers!
No, equality is you playing at your own level. Or showing common courtesy restraint when playing at lower levels.
In regards to "micromanaging" Going into normal is not just so we can feel like gods among mere mortals. This is an insult that keeps getting thrown at us and it’s not fair or true. I am sure there is a very tiny fraction of people who do that, possible the Elitest DPSers but those are rare and don’t represent the rest of us.
As for scaling our self-back yes, it is micromanaging and it can be very difficult to do. When I was gathering the data, I found it massively harder than I expected to stay at sub 50k taking a lot of concentration. It was that hard and took that much effort it was more like work and zapped all the fun out the game. Not only was it hard but I didn’t even manage it perfectly and slipped up going back to high DPS.
Along with being hard to pull off I don’t even think the majority of the other players was bothered about the high DPS. I am not even convinced there is a real problem outside of some rare outliner cases.
Take a look at Valreah graph where he was saying high DPSers are causing problems in the TFO run and forcing the other players to change there game style. Looking into the data that was not the case the high DPSer had no negative impact on the group, there was no evidence of forcing of play styles, no evidence of the casuals dropping in performance, no evidence the casuals couldn’t take part. Yet the high DPSers was being blamed for effectively doing the same thing the causals where doing.
As a high DPSers we are allowed to have a relaxing game as well. Micromanaging our self down is not relaxing or fun.
He does understand, what you don’t seem to understand is you are going against good sportsmanship and common decency from our point of view. Take that graph you posted you are saying the top DPS player should change his setup, stop having fun and going against good sportsmanship and common decency by changing their core build and playstyle to suit your own personal needs against his own needs all for what to us appears to be an arbitrary reason on your behalf. An arbitrary reason that doesn’t even seem to be correct as the data is not showing what you describe as happening.
In which case if it’s not happening then you are making a player change his playstyle over no real reason. What’s worse is the other teammate might not even have a problem and if that’s the case the top DPSers is accommodating you personally. That is not good sportsmanship or common decency.
Plus why are you so insistent the top DPSers has to accommodate you by not vaporising everything. But the 4 causal players are allowed to keep vaporising everything just the same way? It’s a double standard. Your own graph seems to show the top DPSers was not stopping the other 4 causals from taking part, not stopped them playing and not lowered there DPS and not made them change there playstyle. So I don’t even know what your problem is anymore. You seem to be just picking on top DPSers as you are stuck in a thought pattern. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point if you ran a Red Alert see everything get vaporised then blame the top DPSers even if there was none in the group and it was all done by the everyday casual players. That is how it feels at the moment.
As I showed the majority of the time that happens the map is vaped it is not the Elite player going into normal. Yet you seem dead locked on focusing on the Elite player being at fault. What about the majority of the every day players who are vaping the entire map? Why are they allowed to do that but the person you see as the Elite player cannot? If the casuals are not allowed to do that then why are you focused on the Elite player instead of saying all players vaping the map. Elite players are a minority there are barely any of us compared to causals. High DPSers are even more rare then Elite players.
Your own graph showed that the high DPSer downgrading to a lower end map did not impact what so ever the team in a negative way, nor did they remove the chance for the everyday player to participate. My own graph showed the same that when I bumped up my DPS the player near me did not get pushed down but raised up. Another player in this thread said the same they noticed when every they are near top high DPSers their own performance gets better and the best runs they had was with high DPSers being in the group. The experience seems to be the opposite to what you are saying. The high DPSer is not forcing the casual to not take part but often (not always) helping them take part more.
Now I admit there are some extremely rare outliner cases that do cause problems. But we are not talking about those. We are talking about the everyday runs. Not the once in a blue moon event. You seem to feel like it’s a problem but when we look at the data the problem is no there. Just look at your graph.
As for “berate that new player that they have "have not done enough" to "git gud"? “ I do not agree with berating but the data we have so far the only people to not participate did not because they did not do enough and did not get good enough to a basic standard. That has nothing to do with a high DPSers being in the team. Now those players don’t deserve to be berated but we also shouldn’t be blaming the high DPSer because the DPSer was not the reason the player got hit with an AFK in the data I gathered.
We can extrapolate the data by looking at multiple sample points over multiple days, from multiple runs and if you post your data which I asked but you refused to post the DMG graph then we have data from multiple people as well further expanding the data points. If they all match or show a general pattern which they seem to be the case so far. Then even if the data is incomplete, we can build a reasonable picture up of what I happening.
It doesn’t matter if it’s not a perfect capture of all the data. The fact that what I am talking about shows up as often as it does proves what I was saying. Also, if your post the data I asked for it proves at least in that graph you posted that the high DPS is not doing what you say they are doing. They are not negatively impacting the players at least in that run. Even though you blamed them in that run. Have you even looked at what I have asked and checked if I was right?
Look at it from our point of view. We have multiple data samples going against what you are saying. So far zero samples of data showing what you are talking about even your own data is not showing what you are saying. Yet you seem to want to destroy high DPSers builds, destroy high DPSers fun, ruin their play style all so you can feel better over a problem I am not convinced is even real or happening outside of some extremely rare outliner cases.
If there was some wide spread evidence of a problem, I would do what I could to not be part of the problem. Based on the data so far, I am confident that the majority of players in random groups have no problems from the odd high DPSers being in the group in general content, excluding some extremely rare outliner cases.
Now if you have additional data you would like to provide that you believe supports your claims of high DPSers ruining the fun of others, lets see it. Since by your own admission we don't have the full picture, if you are able to provide a decent amount of evidence and multiple points showing high DPSers preventing people from being able to play, I will concede the point and advocate changes. So far you've shown one graph that which did not back up your point at all, but showed the folks in the run were still able to participate at damage ranges typical for the community at large. If you're going to say/hint at this being a big problem, then get me some evidence of it.
It doesn't matter whether you call it a demand or a "suggestion", the result is the same. You're advocating that I make "very simple changes to let others have the ball and enjoy themselves to" and "very simple things you can do in your uber DPS ship without needing to change your loadout or any gear at all." So yes you are in fact wanting me to change how I am playing and walk on eggshells around others so they can feel like they've participated even though the data we have shows they are participating. You are wanting me to forgo the use of keybinds, don't use Deuterium, and all of these arbitrary things to micromanage myself into lower DPS, yet wanting to allow those other people to use Deuterium, keybinds, and everything else.
This is why I asked you specifically, if you are going to "suggest" I make those changes in the name of decency and sportsmanship should I decide to step into advanced for once, where is the equal sportsmanship and decency shown to me? What changes are they also going to make so they can participate? The sportsmanship and decency you've been talking about goes both ways. If they want me to change for them, I'm going to ask for equal changes on their part as that is equality. You said that when going into advanced you choose not to vaporize the map purely because you can, and you adjust your playstyle because you believe it to be more sportsman like. If you think that's something you need to do for yourself, and that's something you are doing of your own accord, then do it. If you want to alter how you play of your own free will because you think it creates a better environment for everyone else, then more power to you and I wish you the best in that. It's certainly your right to hold back if that's what you want to do.
You are allowed to have a fun and relaxed experience in game, that's true. Likewise I am also allowed to have a fun and relaxed experience in game, and micromanaging myself every second so I'm not going over someone's arbitrary standard of too much DPS is not fun. It's already been shown to you that people with DPS ranges that are average for the community are the ones doing the vaping. If your problem is with high DPSers supposedly vaping maps, why are you not wanting those average players to tone it back some as well? Because so far all I'm seeing from where I sit is a vendetta against high DPS people who aren't the problem by all of the data we've seen in here so far.
I used to compete semi-professionally in MTG tournaments years ago. When going to tournaments, the larger tournaments especially, you would encounter a variety of different decks and people with different levels of power and skill in the game. Anyone was allowed to sign up for these tournaments so long as they had legal deck for the format. There were times at those tournaments that I would blow people out in only a couple of turns, and likewise get blown out in a couple of turns. To want me to use a less powerful build, forgo keybinds and the like, is like someone coming to one of those MTG tournaments and then wanting people to use lesser decks next time instead of them changing their own deck around to compete better.
Again your fun is not wrong. Likewise my fun is not wrong either. Both of us have a right to enjoy the game and have fun with it. If they want to bring their lower powered builds into runs as they have more fun in those types of builds, then I wish them the best. Likewise if I want to step down from elites for awhile and have my happy medium, then I am entitled to have fun doing so, yet you seem to take issue with me doing that as though I'm persecuting the other people in the run by simply existing on the same map as them. If folks don't want to change their builds around because they like where they're at, they're free to stay as they are, but it's beyond hypocritical to want me to change my build while they are not willing to change theirs. If they are not willing to do something about their problem, why is it suddenly my responsibility to change for them?
No one is asking me to use lesser builds and hold back eh? explain the bits in bold below then.
Because that looks an awful lot like asking me to hold back so others can participate and "have the ball". The decency you talk about goes both ways. Not all of us so called high DPSers go out of our way to shame people like you seem to want to think. 99% of the time I don't even say anything beyond the customary "gg" in chat when I'm in advanced runs as I'm zoned out listening to music.
Your so called 6th grader analogy fails because you're implying by necessity that only certain people are allowed in the lower difficulties, yet have chided me for suggesting people meet minimum standards set forth by the game itself.
Again show me the data that backs up the claim people are being prevented from competing and playing. Show me the data that demonstrates so called elites are coming into normals and "stomping on newbies". Because so far that's not been the case. If you have data to show otherwise lets see it.
Also who said I play to impress you or anyone else? To be perfectly blunt, you're not even remotely on my radar of people I would care about impressing. As I've said, I don't go into normal modes unless I'm forced to out of necessity. Otherwise I stick to advanced and elite. Did you stop think that maybe, just maybe I'm in advanced because I wanted a couple runs of the happy medium before heading into an elite run again? Or maybe I just wanted to fly around in a particular ship and pew pew things?
Ah, so I'm not allowed to step into advanced because it's below my level? Yet you want to get onto me about lockouts.
I previously asked you if you were willing to add some mobility to your build so you can get to targets and participate more and you said you wouldn't be because you like where you are. So again you want me to change my build and micromanage the fun out of my game for your benefit, but don't want to change anything on your side at the same time. Sorry not happening. If you are not willing to change anything on your side to help yourself, why should I have to change anything for you?
Decency works both ways. If you're going to expect me to change something for you in the name of decency, then you also need to have the decency to change stuff for me. Otherwise you're expecting special treatment and I'm not playing that game. If you know you're having trouble getting to stuff before it's all blown up but aren't willing to change a single thing to do something about it, then you are the problem from then on, not the rest of the team. You're expecting to change nothing, yet have an equal outcome to everyone else, sorry but it doesn't work that way. The group doesn't revolve around you and your subjective definitions of what fun is. Those other group members have just as much right to a relaxed and fun game experience as you do with neither side's fun trumping the other.
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Exactly, no one is asking you to use lesser builds and hold back... except for when you enter a TFO below your level. And even then nobody said it's mandatory. And here's where 'common courtesy', 'decency', and 'sportmanship' come in. You do it, not because someone makes you, but simply because you want to be polite.
No, my 6th Grader example showed that yes, you are allowed into a lower level, but you can still play nice there; not because I say so, or Velorah, but simply because YOU realize it's the decent thing to do towards people significanyly weaker than you -- who are playing at THEIR appropriate level.
So, you even go into Normals?! For shame, Sir, for shame!
And when you do, you can use any of Velorah's suggested, self-imposed nerfs, so as not to spoil the fun for everyone else.
Because you are the one coming down from a higher level; so the onus is on you to 'behave' at significant lower levels.
Only if I were to enter your Elite realm. Then, and ONLY then, would it be reasonable for you to ask that I make changes to my build, to accommodate the Elite team. But, to be perfectly blunt, you're not even remotely on my radar of people I would care about impressing. As I said, I'm happy where I'm at, at my Advanced level.
LOL. I don't have trouble getting to stuff before it's all blown up, except when Elite players show up, disturbing the balance of the Advanced TFO. It's like a 6th Grader telling the 2nd Grader he has trouble with spelling, simply because the 6th Grader can do it faster and better. It don't work that way.
p.s.: whoever made the comment, that getting the deutirium surplus equals having a second job: thanks for that, you made me laugh my belly out for real. We should definetly comply to your style of game, my friend.
Seriously, without decent mobility, how do you contribute to a tfo like Gravity kills? You like... go in there unprepared and don't contribute and make the team lose the bonus marks (for completing the tfo inside the time limit)? Is that what you do? And you come unprepared to Undine assault, again bring nothing to the table and make the team lose the bonus multiplier? Is...Is this how you do your playing?
The whole argument has now devolved into 'Anyone not willing to slot Deuterium is not contributing properly to the game!' Brilliant summation! What would we do without this wise parting shot?!
As for moderators, nobody is 'making' them do anything; there are adults who can decide, like anyone else, to what degree they wish to participate. Being a moderator myself (on a different forum, of course), I've always struggled with the question as to how one can jump into the fray, and still maintain sufficiently even-handed decorum for a person in that position. Watching the thread here, I am only strengthened in my belief, that balancing the two is not an easy feat.
Have you tried using an alt, that way you don't have to change your build because you'll have another toon with a completely different build, seems like it's either that or Nerfs.
I say there's plenty of casual content; after all, it's a casual game.
They both quit the same day. Just like the last 4 i tried to get in. Both of them had decent Fleet T5 ships that were "Top of the line" 4 years ago. Both were more than capable of running ADV Conduit, Khitomer etc.
We all decided to go into NORMAL (i repeat...NORMAL) level Conduit, three of us, and two pugs. Both pugs were flying ships the size of shuttles compared to the cruisers we were in, and i instantly knew where this was going. The map was wiped in just over a minute.
"Don't worry folks! It's just a one off!".
It happened again in Khitomer. We took a break, went to Advanced and it happened again, went down back to normal, Khitomer popped and guess what...yeah, it happened again.
My two friends branded STO a P2W crapshoot...and quit. While people are in here posting walls arguing over semantics, I'm on the ground trying to get old whales back into this game, and NONE OF THEM are willing to keep playing. The gulf between "Elite" and "Casual" is so vast that it is impacting new and returning players, ive seen it happen first hand SIX times now.
Well, you captured the essence of the debate.
I rather just see ppl embrace the notion of good sportmanship, and not troll lower levels, even when no technical restrictions are in place. You really can't codify decency: game restrictions will just serve to enrage them further. I just hope ppl reading this thread will come to realize that respecting each other's skill (and the level they choose to play at) is the most benign thing to do.
Same here. Haven't posted here in a while, as I had a few run-ins with BMR. Nevertheless I was quick to commend her here on her lucid understanding of the situation. Sometimes posts like hers are really needed, as you start to think "Am I really the only one seeing things this way?"
As to who should be a moderator, I fear that's venturing into dangerous territory.
^^ Very much this!
Also, I simply don't enter Elites, because I consider it rude, a-social even, to drag down other people's game. Their Team has formed with ppl who belong at that level (at least that is my presumption). It would deem it very unsportsmanlike of me to A expect to be carried (sans a prior arrangement), and B potentially -- and de facto almost deliberately -- causing them to fail their Objectives. This reasoning, for me, works in both directions. I do not venture into Normals for that selfsame reason. As a new Klingon player, I am proud to say "There's no honor in that."
Tovan Khev is on my XXXII's attempt to be thrown out of an airlock.
Kidding of course! ... Or am I?
Now you can believe me or not - but i never had a problem with the skill gap in this game. I didn't have it as a silly newb and i don't have it now, as a silly newb with better stuff. So to make one thing clear, not every newbie sees a problem with the state of things. Not even me, who usualy hates being the bottom feeder (this is from my past-selfs point of view, to be clear).
Ok I got bored while typing this, so let's fast forward, pretend i was typing about my past adventures, failing at this game and not complaining about it...
DPS is not to high, but the content WORTH PLAYING is to easy. While i have no clue, what a high DPS player does in a normal mode map, i can tell you why you see them in advanced tfos: There is no elite RANDOM option and RANDOMS are the way to go, if you wanna git gud. Ok sorry, i know you don't wanna read these words, but hear me out - RANDOMS can make you progress much faster, than any other option (elite being the absolute worst for resource accumulation). You get at least 2x more dil per random vs any other option and you get marks of choice, which can be used for crafting costly rep gear or again for dil. IO can't speak for others, but i play this game for fun and my fun is to progress and constantly better myself. And the most optimal route is clearly playing random advanced tfos. That or admirality, but one of the DEVS said that admirality grinding is kinda weird thing to do (I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP, i've read it on their twitter page a few months ago) and i can't argue with devs.
So it's realy quite easy - make elites worth playing, somehow. But i can tell you straight away - it will have to be good, because the fail condition is still there and some of us are not ready to risk our time for a failed TFO, a TFO which failed probably because someone unprepared joined (someone without deuterium surplus :> ).
With that being said, I am going to caution everyone in this thread, moderators included, including myself. This is clearly an emotionally provoking topic for some. Be respectful of one another in word and action. Moving forward from here, if you see behavior that you feel is out of line, even if it is a moderator, including myself, call it out. No one is above the forum rules. If you feel it is a severe enough infraction, then I encourage you to take it to our Community Manager, Ambassador Kael. This has been a good discussion. Let's please continue to be courteous and civil towards one another. Thank you.
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i can't take part in this thread, it's tainted now.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Thanks for this clarification.
I'm actually done with this convo, I think. We all seem to be going in circles, looks like. I think I made 'my' point sufficiently clear; and I already stated, in my first post in this thread, iirc, there was a lot of 'anger' in this thread. That rarely ends well.