Nah. I'm considered somewhat of a 'whalette', and have pretty much all top gear and ships; but my DPS sucks nonetheless. If DPS could be achieved throwing money at the game, I'd be a top DPS-er too.
Excellent point!
You bring up another hole in the idea - what happens when a player has met the "minimum requirements for a gear check", has completed all the requirements put forth by the "dungeon journal" but cannot make it past the arbitrary "DPS (aka Role) check?" Obviously the three part system failed to prepare that player for higher difficulty content.
At some point, a player like this would have to do what they should have done from the start and consult the best source of information and education there is - other players. They are a far, far better source of knowledge and advice than any complicated and convoluted system.
The DPS portion of the check is not an arbitrary DPS number. The Advanced and Elite TFO's are designed around the player doing a certain level of DPS and if the player has passed the gear score but is still failing the DPS check then the check is working as intended as the player is not ready for the content. That's the entire idea of the check to let the player know they need to do some more work on there build/piloting before moving up into the the more advanced content. Think of it as a safe guard to help the player avoid jumping into content they are not ready for.
If DPS could be achieved throwing money at the game, I'd be a top DPS-er too.
That, my friend, depends entirely on what exactly you're "throwing money" at. Are you buying ships from the store because you like their looks, because they have enough console slots to suit you - or purely because they fit the DPS meta? Are you buying tons of upgrade tokens, then using them solely to upgrade your weapons and damaging consoles, and not, say, shields or secondary deflectors?
"Spending money" isn't the sole determinator of what you're doing with it - a meal at a fine restaurant and a week's worth of groceries at a mid-level store run about the same amount of money, but one is much higher quality for a single meal while the other feeds you nutritious food for seven days.
So far I've stayed out of this pretty much, but my 2 quatloos are, I don't agree with any system that would restrict a player's freedom of choice to play the game as they want. That being said, DPSers wiping lower level content to rush through their dailies or whatever (besides Event runs), it would be nice if they could be more considerate of others, but clearly as per the responses here, their desires seem to trump decency. But that's a question of human nature and cannot be addressed by any game mechanic. 🤷🏼♀️
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As someone who can't throw money at the game, I still can run through TFOs without gaining a AFK penalty.
More than likely I average in the 15-20K category and that's fine with me. I probably do more in TFOs by the buffs of other players, but by myself I'm not that good. I could probably improve a lot, but I do fine.
My two quatloos is the same as BMR. I think players should have free choice about the content they play. If one is going into elite with a sub-par build and looking to be carried is not someone I'd want to fly with, but they still have the freedom of choice to do so. I myself would not go into elite with any of my builds, but they can get through advanced well enough to let me participate, should I choose to go into them.
Every game has players who want to be carried. They also have players who bumble into elite content not knowing they're about to be wiped. Then there are those players who know their limits and play within those limits. I play to purely have fun, not to test myself by how difficult I can make things for myself, which is why I usually play story content on Normal and save advanced for patrols and/or TFOs if I wanted to test myself a little bit.
I guess this was more than a couple quatloos lol.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
@darkbladejk I see you are still struggling. I give you credit for trying, but your idea just does not work. Again, to try and be courteous to others, I will summarize and avoid walls of text best I can.
Assumes weapons are the only means to generate DPS.
DPS is a tricky pony, and depends not only on what you bring to the table yourself, but also on how your group fares. There's an optimum. Math and I aren't really on speaking terms, LOL, but way I remember it, ideally you're in a team that is better than you, but not so much better that you can no longer get in a shot, edge-wise. My own DPS has been highest when I was in such a team. A group slightly better than yourself elevates your own, personal DPS too.
Also, DPS is not an island, entirely on itself. When I was still chasing DPS, one of the highest scores I got, was from a helpful team member spamming APB3 on my foes (with Tholian pets). Aka, the damage I'm allowed to do, is very much contigent on the debuffs, for one, the others are doing.
Tl;dr: accurately measuring DPS is surprisingly difficult. You may parse, and say 'See, this is how much I did.' Sure, but will the number be the same in the next pug? Likely not. The abilities of the team as a whole matter, as well as the overall speed in which a TFO is completed. The only true measure of DPS would be a solo-map test, designed by Cryptic (with them parsing the DPS for you, in your little admittance test).
So you are advocating for a system (albeit a very flawed, very poorly thought out one) designed to lock players out of higher difficulty content to prevent them from causing headaches for high DPS players, while perfectly fine with high DPS players playing lower difficulties and causing problems for others. Very telling.
It's hard to argue with such logic.
Well, I tried to keep it short too (and succeeded). And kudos on the "tripartite of failure."
If DPS could be achieved throwing money at the game, I'd be a top DPS-er too.
That, my friend, depends entirely on what exactly you're "throwing money" at. Are you buying ships from the store because you like their looks, because they have enough console slots to suit you - or purely because they fit the DPS meta? Are you buying tons of upgrade tokens, then using them solely to upgrade your weapons and damaging consoles, and not, say, shields or secondary deflectors?
"Spending money" isn't the sole determinator of what you're doing with it - a meal at a fine restaurant and a week's worth of groceries at a mid-level store run about the same amount of money, but one is much higher quality for a single meal while the other feeds you nutritious food for seven days.
O, I do it all. All my ships only have maxed-out Epic gear: not just the weapons. Everything, including the good Lobi gear. And I upgrade all ships to T6-X. And all is re-engineered for max DPS. I also slot expensive doffs (the kind that increase CritH and such, or those X-of-Y Borg ones, that add EPG to Pilot abilities and the like). If it's good, I have it; if it's better, I have it too. I realize this story would have a better impact if it actually helped me do super-DPS with all that money spent, but there it is.
I do buy ships for their looks too (like when they have nice bridges). But, realistically, any Promo, or even a 'lowly' lock box ship, flown by a good pilot, should land a person well over 200k, at least. Suffice to say I'm not in that category.
There are a few things I am going to add to this as they need to be said. First I wholly reject the original premise of this thread that people can't contribute purely because some evil DPSer is coming in and won't let anyone else play and is giving out AFK penalties. While it's possible through sheer statistics that you could get an AFK penalty through no fault of your own if you're on the lower end of the DPS spectrum, AFK penalties are a rare thing. To even get one in this game you have to do less than 2% of the damage for the entirety of the run, with many TFOs being 1% or less. If you are constantly getting AFK penalties handed to you, this means you are constantly doing less than 1% of the damage for the entirety of the run, and I do not believe or accept that you are constantly being grouped with so called insta-vape players who are making it their mission to AFK you. If you are having trouble getting there before everything dies, bring a faster ship that allows you to get there sooner. Any ship from the smaller vessels to the beefy dreadnoughts can be made to cross a map in a timely manor and to move. Even if we were to say people should wait for you to get there, how long do you expect people to wait before they engage?
I wholly reject the idea that "limit the DPS" or "high DPSers should bring lesser ships (as a courtesy)" are any kind of viable solution as it attempts to make other people responsible for something that they have no control over. I am not responsible for your fun in game, you are. By saying "limit the DPS" you are saying that YOUR fun of lower DPS ships is the correct way to play and those who enjoy higher DPS ships are wrong, thus you want them punished for not playing your way. I will give the people who have outright said "limit the DPS" one thing, at least they're honest about their intentions. When someone says "high DPSers should bring lesser ships" again they are trying to make other people responsible for their fun. And when they attach the "as a courtesy" bit it even comes with its own built in gaslight, because when you tell them you're not bringing a lesser ship just because of them they can gaslight you and say "you just don't care about your fellow players." Sorry but again I am not responsible for your ability to play the game. If you're going to insist that I bring a lesser ship so you can have a chance to compete, then I also get to demand you bring a ship that gives you the greatest chance to compete.
I wholly reject the idea that someone playing on a lower difficulty automatically amounts to them trolling. Not every TFO has an elite mode, and not every TFO has an advanced mode either such as ye old fleet alerts. While I have the ability to clear any elite in this game, I do not find constant elite runs to be fun and sometimes like to coast a little bit with some mindless destruction. Yet according to the viewpoint of "higher DPS people playing on lower difficulties = trolling" suddenly I'm being told that my fun is wrong and I'm not allowed to set foot in the lower difficulties, but they are somehow allowed to come into higher difficulties. Sorry but that is hypocrisy. If you believe someone is intentionally trying to troll other people, then gather your evidence and report that person for abuse of game mechanics. Otherwise I will not support any idea that amounts to guilty until proven innocent.
With that said I suggested the Gear Check, Role/Performance Check, and Dungeon Journal because they work and have been proven to work in other games. I do not accept that somehow STO is the magical exception to the rule where it's impossible. Certain TFOs in this game are built around people bringing a certain amount of DPS to the encounter, and if you don't you fail, with ISE and Korfez being 2 prime examples. If you can't clear the start of those TFOs, that's not me saying you aren't ready for that content, that's the game itself and by extension Cryptic saying you are not ready for that TFO. This means you are not meeting the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the game itself and are not ready to be in that content. It's one thing to clear the starting area's performance check and fail later due to an issue with a mechanic, it's another thing entirely to fail to the starting performance test. If you fail to the starting performance test, you won't be able to clear the later mechanics anyways.
The Gear Check, Role/Performance Check, and Dungeon Journal are there to give a reality check of where you actually are in terms of ability so you know if you've over-estimated yourself, under-estimated yourself, or are where you thought you are. If you are failing the Role/Performance check, you would fail the higher TFOs anyways as the Role/Performance check would be built like the higher TFOs. If you do fail, then the Journal will help you improve. If you can clear the checks, you will almost certainly clear the higher TFOs. I am not some evil rogue Q trying to "k33p those n00bs out of my TF0s". What I'm saying is the game itself is telling you that you're not ready yet, so lets take a step back and get you ready before trying again. Because all you're going to do otherwise is bang your head against the wall and cause it to fail for yourself and 4 other people on the team.
I see it as beyond ridiculous and unfair to expect 4 other people to carry the 5th. As I've said so long as people meet the minimum standards of the game itself, they have a right to be there. If they're not meeting those standards, then sorry but they have no business being there.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Suppose five people queue up for an Advanced RTFO that will require 200K overall DPS from the team to complete. Two of the five players have a DPS score of 50K. Two other players have a DPS score of 40K. The fifth player has a DPS score of 18K. Should the match not be allowed to queue up and continue? It is way more than very likely that group can complete the content just fine without issue. Or should the 18K DPS player not be allowed to queue for Advanced content at all?
You will never be able to hit exactly the same DPS every single time. There will always be some minor variation between the numbers. One run you may hit 50k, one you may hit 52k, another you may only hit 49k as hypotheticals. If you're seeing wild swings in either direction such as hitting 50k one run, 25k in another, 150k in a 3rd and so on, then that's not normal at all and means there is something going on that needs to be looked at.
To go through your example of a hypothetical TFO, I already have a feeling I know how this is going to go, but I'll go through it anyways. So first up in that hypothetical TFO requiring a combined total of 200k from the team, this means each person would need to sustain 40K DPS at a minimum to complete the TFO. Let's assume a slight variation on your example for a moment. Let's assume that 4 of the 5 people in there are at the 40k minimum and our 5th guy is at 18k, then NO the TFO should not proceed with that 5th guy as he is not ready for the content yet.
-Per your example as written with 2 people at 50k, 2 at 40k, and the 5th at 18k, the TFO would be exactly 2k short of the required 200k in order to complete it. In this instance as you have written it, NO the TFO should not proceed as again that guy at 18k is not yet ready for the content.
-Now I will assume a third variant of this scenario. Let's suppose the first 2 guys are at 50k, the second 2 are at 40k, and the 5th guy is at 20k. This would add up to exactly 200k, however the TFO still should NOT proceed as again that 5th guy is not ready for the content and is at half of the minimum required DPS.
Now you might say "see you just want to lock people out" however I am holding him to the same standard as everyone else. That guy is still free to join private TFOs with friends, just not the public TFOs. If his friends want to carry him through private runs, that's on them and something they are agreeing to. When joining public TFOs it's beyond unfair to them to expect them to carry that 5th guy. Even if they're capable, it's not their job.
Which begs another question - if players who do not meet all the arbitrary requirements set forth in the Tripartite of Failure are to be locked out of even being able to queue for higher level content, are the players who are vastly overpowered for Normal and Advanced difficulty locked out of queuing for lower difficulty TFO content? Seems only fair for the system to work both ways. Someone like a LeBron James quite clearly meets the minimum requirements for a middle school level basketball game, but having him join said middle school game is quite obviously overkill and would certainly be no fun at all for the kids having to play against him. Or should he stick to the NBA level so that those kids can compete with people closer to their level and have fun? I am fairly confident I already know how some people will answer that question.
People who do not meet the requirements are locked out of PUBLIC groups, not private groups. If people want to drag their friends through stuff on private groups they're free to do so. What people do in private runs is their business. When you start wanting to join PUBLIC groups, then there are certain standards that need to be met. So long as people meet the minimum standards required by the content itself, they will be allowed to enter the public groups. If they don't, they will be locked out of public groups until they do.
To answer the questions about who would be locked out of what.
-Would a person be locked out of higher tier content if they do not meet the standards for said TFO? Yes they would be locked out of public group runs of said TFO until they meet the standards for that TFO.
-Would a high DPS be locked out of normal and advanced TFOs? No they wouldn't. Reason being is they have met the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the TFO itself.
"but that's a double standard and you just want to lock out low dps people". No I'm holding them both to the same standard. Get to the minimum standards the TFO itself demands or exceed those standards and you are free to enter said content.
Again we're not talking about "arbitrary" requirements. If the game itself is saying "you need 200k from the team to succeed" then that's not an arbitrary number, but a specific requirement that has been set to clear the content. That's not the game suggesting you need 200k, but straight up saying if you don't pull the 200k you will fail.
In any event, good luck trying to develop both the front and back end code required to track and maintain all of this data not only on a per character basis, but a per character, per ship, per loadout basis. That is what would be required and is yet another way in which ship sales may be negatively impacted due to the inordinate amount of grinding that would be required to pass the Tripartite of Failure requirements on every ship. It is turning owning and operating a ship into a chore just to participate.
As someone who has developed content for games, I'm telling you that you are severely overestimating what's required for this, and misrepresenting Gear requirements.
SWTOR keeps track of its gear in part by running a check when you place an item into a slot, and then updates the average item level on screen accordingly.
This can be done with a simple script in 5 minutes akin to an excel spreadsheet calculator. Then with regards to the Performance Test it's as simple as parsing the test map to see if people have met or exceeded the minimum standard. If they have then it unlocks.
In WoW, you DID NOT HAVE TO RETEST EVERY TIME YOU CHANGED SOMETHING. So to sit here and say people would have to do it for every single ship every single time is just flat out wrong. If I wanted to take the tank test on my Death Knight, I obtained my gear one time, then took the test one time and that was it for that toon. From there I was on my own. If for whatever reason I fell below one of those standards I wasn't locked out again. However, if for example I had all mk xii very rare gear across the board, there's no legitimate reason for me to have fallen below that gear level.
If I suddenly fell below those levels then folks knew I either wasn't trying or was trolling, something was going on outside of my control, or I needed to learn the mechanics better. If I was able to pass the gear and performance checks, there was no excuse for me not to learn the new stuff. So again YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST FOR EVERY SHIP AND LOADOUT. Again I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Has anyone else ever seen an experienced player accomplish something in game and wondered how they went about doing what they did, and then went on to try and do some research or ask some questions or make a few small changes just out of curiosity in order to determine if it could work for themselves?
A long time ago somebody in a deep space patrol quickly destroyed a hostile alien ship that I had engaged using an ability I knew nothing about. So I pm'd the player and asked them what they used. Apparently it was something called cannon rapid fire. So I wrote that down and attempted to get some more info on it.
This sort of practice (endeavoring to ask questions and try new things) is something that can keep rolling over a period of many years and is part of the game for some players. Some even seem to find this process of discovery interesting and rewarding.
Now you might say "see you just want to lock people out" however I am holding him to the same standard as everyone else. That guy is still free to join private TFOs with friends, just not the public TFOs. If his friends want to carry him through private runs, that's on them and something they are agreeing to. When joining public TFOs it's beyond unfair to them to expect them to carry that 5th guy. Even if they're capable, it's not their job.
People who do not meet the requirements are locked out of PUBLIC groups, not private groups. If people want to drag their friends through stuff on private groups they're free to do so. What people do in private runs is their business. When you start wanting to join PUBLIC groups, then there are certain standards that need to be met. So long as people meet the minimum standards required by the content itself, they will be allowed to enter the public groups. If they don't, they will be locked out of public groups until they do.
To answer the questions about who would be locked out of what.
-Would a person be locked out of higher tier content if they do not meet the standards for said TFO? Yes they would be locked out of public group runs of said TFO until they meet the standards for that TFO.
My guy, WTH? It is not Cryptic's business model to restrict or lock anyone out of any content for any reason. Hence why the game went free-to-play and players do not pay for updates and expansions, and why something like what you're suggesting would likely never happen. In fact, Cryptic's track record has consistently been to allow as easy a path for player participation across the board as possible. I'm honestly surprised that you would advocate for something like this.
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Have you considered increasing your mobility ? It can make things a lot more fun versus being stuck in red alert while others have already moved on to a new set of targets.
so it's back to "git gud". for normal level TFOs.. the "l33ts" are showing their true colors in this thread. No longer play how you want to play, play OUR way. what's next? telling casual players to stop playing YOUR game YOUR way?
Have you considered increasing your mobility ? It can make things a lot more fun versus being stuck in red alert while others have already moved on to a new set of targets.
so it's back to "git gud". for normal level TFOs.. the "l33ts" are showing their true colors in this thread. No longer play how you want to play, play OUR way. what's next? telling casual players to stop playing YOUR game YOUR way?
My comment was meant to highlight the advantages of mobility.
Yes, I'm recommending the use of an Emergency Conn Hologram and Emergency Power to Engines in any TFO.
It works good.
If anybody is tired of getting left behind this is only one of many simple ways to go faster more often.
So far I've stayed out of this pretty much, but my 2 quatloos are, I don't agree with any system that would restrict a player's freedom of choice to play the game as they want. That being said, DPSers wiping lower level content to rush through their dailies or whatever (besides Event runs), it would be nice if they could be more considerate of others, but clearly as per the responses here, their desires seem to trump decency. But that's a question of human nature and cannot be addressed by any game mechanic. 🤷🏼♀️
I disagree. a DPS check to be used in assembling the Pug WOULD work. your 100KDPS players would be able to vape their way through a TFO in a minute while the 20KDPS teams would clear it in 10 minutes. it's a win win and it keeps all hands happy
Have you considered increasing your mobility ? It can make things a lot more fun versus being stuck in red alert while others have already moved on to a new set of targets.
so it's back to "git gud". for normal level TFOs.. the "l33ts" are showing their true colors in this thread. No longer play how you want to play, play OUR way. what's next? telling casual players to stop playing YOUR game YOUR way?
^ Spot on, especially the emphasized part. @nixie50 gets it.
Seriously, the vibe I'm getting is, "We, the Elite, do not want you to drag down our Elite TFO, but we should feel free to enter your Advanced queues, and stomp all over, and ruin, your game." How's about we restrict NOBODY?! This is a casual game. "Your fun isn't wrong," remember? As BMR pointed out, it's outright dumb for a business like Crypric to lock people out. They didn't give me that gold-plated D'Kora all for nothing (Before you could simply buy it at Mudd's) I spend good money on the game: I want to be able to play.
I solo-ed a SB1 Elite, the other day. I managed, albeit barely. No way I could ever solo Korfez, of course (or even do enough DPS to be in an Elite team for that). But is this really an issue? I think those are just edge-cases. I never enter an Elite, simply because I don't want to embarrass myself. Nor have I ever incurred an AFK-penalty for doing too little DPS in an Advanced (I mean, I suck, but c'mon, I contribute more than 2%).
I'm trying not to be that guy that's being a buzz kill while we're having a jam session but in 7 pages so far, no one has addressed the elephant in the room: What's in it for Cryptic?
You guys are just talking about quality of life systems that would, in a vacuum, make life easier for some players, more difficult for others. Yet not once said how it would make the bank money if they invested in it. So aren't we leaping without looking? Into a pool with no water in it?
Why, if I was cryptic, would I care about any of this? Why would I care about your appeals to my sense of comradery and community? I'm a company not a charity. I want money, show me the money. Why would I change when I can do what i am currently doing and make the same money. When what you are suggesting could and more likely will lead to me making less money and putting in more work? Who knows what bugs or crashes could come from implementing a system. How many more people i will lose because i did something I was told would make players life supposedly better to only be yelled at by the other half that hated it.
Sure, in a vacuum it might help someone someday, but its not helping me, right now, make money.
So until someone address's that then it really doesn't make much sense to be passionate about an argument between and old man and the sea.... in my opinion.
It's like arguing over whom is going to get the best gift from santa, you ask for a ps5 and someone else ask for an Xbox and Santa gives you a game of "Guess who." to share. Technically every one got what they wanted. Yet no one is happy, and yet there are some people whom think that's the barometer of if you are a good person or not. By having everyone hate you.
@darkbladejk you have once again shown your true colors here as you have in similar threads on these kinds of topics over the years. Your real intentions are less to do with "helping a player prepare" than it is to lock people out of content based on your personal opinion. Good luck on that front. The more you desperately tried to justify your nonsensical Tripartite of Failure, the more transparent your intentions became and the more holes you exposed in what is already a very badly flawed, very poorly thought out idea.
Some key takeaways -
You will never be able to hit exactly the same DPS every single time. There will always be some minor variation between the numbers.
Correct. However, if by your standard the Tripartite of Failure requires a player to hit an arbitrary DPS score of 20K to unlock Advanced queue access, and that player gets lucky in ONE try on the qualification map and hits 20.1K, your flawed system allows them to participate even if they can never hit that number again. They met the arbitrary DPS standard once so the Tripartite of Failure assumes they can repeat the same score every time forever.
As someone who has developed content for games, I'm telling you that you are severely overestimating what's required for this, and misrepresenting Gear requirements.
...
This can be done with a simple script in 5 minutes akin to an excel spreadsheet calculator.
And as someone who has near 30 years of programming experience working in complex systems, I am telling you I know hyperbole when I see it. If it truly is this simple to develop, go right ahead write the code for it. Have Cryptic hire you. It should only take you literal minutes to implement and it can be rolled out with the next patch.
Then with regards to the Performance Test it's as simple as parsing the test map to see if people have met or exceeded the minimum standard. If they have then it unlocks.
...
So again YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST FOR EVERY SHIP AND LOADOUT. Again I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas.
...
In WoW, you DID NOT HAVE TO RETEST EVERY TIME YOU CHANGED SOMETHING. So to sit here and say people would have to do it for every single ship every single time is just flat out wrong. If I wanted to take the tank test on my Death Knight, I obtained my gear one time, then took the test one time and that was it for that toon.
You do not understand your own suggestion. I can run the performance test on my top tier ship using my top tier high DPS build and be given the blessing of the Tripartite of Failure to queue for content. Before I join the queue, I can switch to a less powerful ship using less powerful gear that would not pass the performance test at all, but since I already unlocked access to the queue, I am good to go. Your Tripartite of Failure is not taking into account players changing gear and skills, or using different ships with different builds on the same character.
Now I will assume a third variant of this scenario. Let's suppose the first 2 guys are at 50k, the second 2 are at 40k, and the 5th guy is at 20k. This would add up to exactly 200k, however the TFO still should NOT proceed as again that 5th guy is not ready for the content and is at half of the minimum required DPS.
The overall required DPS for the map is being met though, and that one player at 20K is going to do sufficient DPS to actually participate in and contribute to the match. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to not allow that match to continue.
Would a high DPS be locked out of normal and advanced TFOs? No they wouldn't. Reason being is they have met the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the TFO itself.
So it is perfectly reasonable for overqualified players to queue for content and ruin the fun for other less skilled players who may be trying to learn the ropes. What a brilliant system and what an absolutely atrocious attitude.
My guy, WTH? It is not Cryptic's business model to restrict or lock anyone out of any content for any reason. Hence why the game went free-to-play and players do not pay for updates and expansions, and why something like what you're suggesting would likely never happen. In fact, Cryptic's track record has consistently been to allow as easy a path for player participation across the board as possible. I'm honestly surprised that you would advocate for something like this.
@darkbladejk you have once again shown your true colors here as you have in similar threads on these kinds of topics over the years. Your real intentions are less to do with "helping a player prepare" than it is to lock people out of content based on your personal opinion. Good luck on that front. The more you desperately tried to justify your nonsensical Tripartite of Failure, the more transparent your intentions became and the more holes you exposed in what is already a very badly flawed, very poorly thought out idea.
You asked the question, all I did was answer. Don't ask the question if you're not willing to get an answer you may not like. Second I've already told you what my intentions are, everyone is held to the same standard. If a TFO requires a minimum of 50k from every member of the team to succeed, every member of that team is required to pull at least 50k to be eligible to participate.
Third, if the TFO itself requires 50k from every member to succeed, that is not my personal opinion as to what people need, that is the game itself saying "you need this much to succeed and if you don't you fail." Opinion would be if I said "I think people should have 50k dps minimum to join content X." So instead of getting mad at me, you need to get mad at Cryptic when those instances happen because they are the ones that set that standard, not me.
Correct. However, if by your standard the Tripartite of Failure requires a player to hit an arbitrary DPS score of 20K to unlock Advanced queue access, and that player gets lucky in ONE try on the qualification map and hits 20.1K, your flawed system allows them to participate even if they can never hit that number again. They met the arbitrary DPS standard once so the Tripartite of Failure assumes they can repeat the same score every time forever.
Arbitrary as defined by Webster:
-existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will.
-based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or intrinsic nature of something
Per your own example if a TFO requires 200k combined DPS from the team to clear it, that is not an arbitrary number it's not left to individual players to determine. That number would have been put in place by Cryptic itself meaning it would be necessary for the team to have a combined 200k to clear that TFO. That is not a preference, and it is not left to the individual, that is the game outright telling you that the team needs to do 200k or you fail. Again in that hypothetical that you yourself brought up before, get mad at Cryptic if you don't like it because they would have been the ones to set that standard. You and I as players have no control over that.
With regards to what the minimum output should be, that would be a Cryptic decision. Also I simply do not buy the argument that if you were good enough to meet that hypothetical 20k once that you couldn't do it again. Assuming the systems were in place, you would have the minimum stats needed to do so, you would have the mechanical knowledge to do so, so what would the problem be? If players are unable to meet the standard due to something outside of their control such as internet drop, nothing can be done about that. If they're unable to do it because of needing to learn the mechanics a bit more, then they will get it once they learn the mechanics a bit better. If they are having trouble getting the mechanics then they can ask for help as you've said before and "utilize the knowledge of the players." If people are able to figure things out as easily as you claimed, can ask others if they get stuck, and there is a ton of info out there, then what's the problem? Are you really going to suggest that suddenly after learning where to get the gear, how to generate the hypothetical 20k that magically they couldn't do it again?
And as someone who has near 30 years of programming experience working in complex systems, I am telling you I know hyperbole when I see it. If it truly is this simple to develop, go right ahead write the code for it. Have Cryptic hire you. It should only take you literal minutes to implement and it can be rolled out with the next patch.
So you're telling me that after 30 years of programming you can't create what amounts to an excel spreadsheet calculator script to do something the game already does? If you equip a console on your ship, it will plug the static stat values into a formula and update your stats in real time in your stats page. Are you really telling me that as a programmer you can't figure out how to plug numbers into a formula and have them display on screen? High schoolers taking a basic office class are taught how to make excel calculators and do exactly that. If they can do it, how can you not after supposedly programming for 30 years?
I'm sorry but as someone who has been creating content for other games for 20 years, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.
You do not understand your own suggestion. I can run the performance test on my top tier ship using my top tier high DPS build and be given the blessing of the Tripartite of Failure to queue for content. Before I join the queue, I can switch to a less powerful ship using less powerful gear that would not pass the performance test at all, but since I already unlocked access to the queue, I am good to go. Your Tripartite of Failure is not taking into account players changing gear and skills, or using different ships with different builds on the same character.
So you would be willing to swap to a build you admit is underpowered and deliberately troll a group even though you would be doing the exact thing you chide so called high DPSers for doing, only you would be doing it in reverse. Good to know you're willing to deliberately troll a group.
If you are capable of farming out the gear for one ship and getting it up to snuff, yet somehow suddenly stop meeting the standards the game/Cryptic itself set, then we know one of 3 things is going on. Either you're having internet issues or some RL thing, you're having issues with the mechanics of the TFO itself, or you're deliberately trolling the group in which case you give people grounds to report you and I would hope they do. And you've already admitting that in this instance it would be option 3 since you deliberately switched the gear out to troll the group. If you can farm out one set of gear for a ship and get it up to snuff, what is stopping you from doing so for the second ship save your own unwillingness to do so? Are you suddenly going to strip off all the gear from the first ship before you've farmed out what you need for the second?
I understand what I've suggested perfectly. I've advocated something that holds everyone to the same standard as set forth by the game itself and forces everyone to take responsibility for their ability to participate or lack of. You on the other hand have advocated that people like myself who by your definition would qualify as "high DPS" should have to bring lower DPS ships into runs "as a courtesy to allow others a chance to participate". All while simultaneously getting mad if/when someone like myself says if you get to "ask" that I bring in a lower DPS ship, I get to "ask" you to bring in a higher one. You've all but stopped short of saying you see it as trolling for a so called high DPS person to bring their higher performing ships into normal, but somehow I'm not allowed to be annoyed if you bring a low powered ship into higher tier content. You say that the door swings both ways, yet get really mad when folks like myself who would qualify as high DPS by your standards hold you to that same standard you want to apply to us.
It's really a simple concept if you want to understand it. Do you have the minimum gear, if yes you're good. Do you have the minimum performance, if yes you're good. ISE and Korfez already have built in performance tests, so are you going to argue those be removed since they're arbitrary or should they stay?
Now I will assume a third variant of this scenario. Let's suppose the first 2 guys are at 50k, the second 2 are at 40k, and the 5th guy is at 20k. This would add up to exactly 200k, however the TFO still should NOT proceed as again that 5th guy is not ready for the content and is at half of the minimum required DPS.
The overall required DPS for the map is being met though, and that one player at 20K is going to do sufficient DPS to actually participate in and contribute to the match. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to not allow that match to continue.
This right here is what I'm talking about. You say that us so called high DPS players should bring in lesser ships "as a courtesy so everyone has a chance to participate", yet you're getting mad that I said the TFO in that instance shouldn't continue because the 20k guy isn't pulling his own weight as he's below the 40k minimum. In other words it's okay for me to be asked to bring a lesser build and change for them, but not okay for me ask them to bring a stronger build and change for me. That is the epitome of hypocrisy.
In that instance, if the 20k guy wants to see that content he should go into private runs until he improves instead of trying to force 4 other people in public runs to carry him. I'm sorry but that's not fair to the other 4 people in that run. It's no different than working in an office and someone working half the hours their co-workers did while expecting to be paid for the same amount of hours as their co-workers. Why should those other 4 people have to carry that 5th guy? Why should he get a free ride when the other 4 have put in the work to be there? Private runs where the other 4 agree to carry him is one thing, trying to force 4 random people to carry a 5th is something else entirely.
Would a high DPS be locked out of normal and advanced TFOs? No they wouldn't. Reason being is they have met the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the TFO itself.
So it is perfectly reasonable for overqualified players to queue for content and ruin the fun for other less skilled players who may be trying to learn the ropes. What a brilliant system and what an absolutely atrocious attitude.
If you really want to play that card dude, then by your own logic, is it acceptable for an under-qualified player to queue for content and ruin the fun for veteran players? If you're going to ask that I bring in a lesser build so you can participate, why can't I ask you to bring in a stronger build so you can participate?
This is why I asked at the start of the thread, and in the previous thread about this stuff, what are you running on your ship? This whole thing has been about people who say they can't participate because people are getting there before them and nuking everything before they can get a shot off. First are you actually getting an AFK penalty or are you getting rewards? If you're getting rewards then what's the problem other than it not being the most fun run? Are you running a slow ship or a fast one? Are you using a build with enough potential performance to beat the AFK penalty? Once we've verified that you have, then and only then can we take a look at other things. You start with the obvious first and then work your way out.
As for attitudes, I just have no tolerance for people who aren't willing to take even the smallest responsibility for their own ability to play or not play in a game. If you want to call me an elitist or what have you, then that's on you.
Have you considered increasing your mobility ? It can make things a lot more fun versus being stuck in red alert while others have already moved on to a new set of targets.
so it's back to "git gud". for normal level TFOs.. the "l33ts" are showing their true colors in this thread. No longer play how you want to play, play OUR way. what's next? telling casual players to stop playing YOUR game YOUR way?
Your fun is not wrong, but neither is the fun of the high DPSers people have been ripping on and blaming for all their woes. If you bring a slow ship into a run and everyone gets there before you as a result, who's fault is that? If you're having trouble getting to things before they're blown up, what are you doing to make sure you're able to get there in time first? Have you tried changing ships to something faster and/or stronger? If you don't have something faster and/or stronger, are you trying to form your own private groups or asking for help? What are you doing to help yourself first before demanding change of others?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
My guy, WTH? It is not Cryptic's business model to restrict or lock anyone out of any content for any reason. Hence why the game went free-to-play and players do not pay for updates and expansions, and why something like what you're suggesting would likely never happen. In fact, Cryptic's track record has consistently been to allow as easy a path for player participation across the board as possible. I'm honestly surprised that you would advocate for something like this.
The game went free to play because it would have tanked had it stayed subscription only. Cryptic does good with making sure the average players has plenty choose from in terms of ships, gear, and so on. Yet as much as I like the folks at Cryptic, they don't do very much to teach people how to use said equipment. There is a ton of basic concepts that should be covered that aren't. Such as turning on autofiring of weapons that's easily missed. Many people think that if a ship comes with a dual bank, torpedo, beam array and single cannon on the front of the ship that's how it has to be ran. They're not told for example you can run all beam arrays up front, all dual banks, or all dual cannons (Assuming the ship can run them). They're not told how to train their bridge officers or that being a tactical captain doesn't mean they're restricted to tactical only ships. There is ALOT imo that needs to be improved on in the information presentation department.
What I'm advocating is giving people a source for that basic info in the Dungeon Journal, which would also tell people where they can get bits of gear, such as if one was looking for phaser items. Then putting them on a path to learning how to take advantage of those items and preparing them for the advanced and elite TFOs. I'm not saying keep them locked out forever or they can never see the content. They could still join private groups until they've cleared the checks. What I'm saying is if they're going to join a public TFO where the TFO and game itself requires them to do 50k minimum as the hypothetical, they should be able to do that minimum. I'm not saying they can never participate, I'm saying take a step back and get your stuff in order first because they're going to fail if they don't because they're not ready. I don't see it as fair to the other 4 members for the run to fail because one guy wasn't ready for the content when it could have been prevented by teaching them before it ever got to that point.
I've given away billions of ec in ships, gear, traits and the like. I've also given away millions of dilithium worth of upgraded equipment to help people. You know I put my money where my mouth is. Which is why I'm going to make an offer to the OP @colonelmarik should he choose to accept it.
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You say you're having a hard time getting to stuff and participating correct? If you would like I am willing to sit down with you and go over your build to help you make sure you're not leaving mobility or otherwise on the table that could help alleviate this issue. Any ship, any energy type you wish. Start with the obvious stuff and work our way out. Eliminate build issues first, then look at tactics to see if there's something different we can do. If need be I will provide with a complete set of gear for your ship such as weapons, consoles, traits, and boff powers I am able to get my hands on, which includes lockbox items. I am willing to also upgrade those items up to mk xv ultra rare should they be needed, and if they hit epic, then even better. Should we determine the ship is at fault, I will hand you the cstore coupon I am sitting on and put you in a different ship that will allow you to get there faster while still being more to your liking. I will also kit said ship out for you up to the mk xv ultra rare items. I will also sit down on discord or in game to answer questions regarding said build and help you master it. This includes running missions to help you get said gear should it be a mission item I can't hand you. If you would like some assistance in trying to alleviate this issue, up to and including the help I have outlined above, then I am willing to help you to the best of my ability. Should you wish to take some time to think about my offer before saying one way or another, the offer will remain valid.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
“Suppose five people queue up for an Advanced RTFO that will require 200K overall DPS from the team to complete. Two of the five players have a DPS score of 50K. Two other players have a DPS score of 40K. The fifth player has a DPS score of 18K. Should the match not be allowed to queue up and continue? It is way more than very likely that group can complete the content just fine without issue. Or should the 18K DPS player not be allowed to queue for Advanced content at all?”
While ISE has everything grouped together so the high DPS player can cover the 18k DPSer. The same doesn’t apply to other TFOs like the Gauntlet Elite. Each player needs to cover a set point and the 18k DPSer won’t be able to do that even if the group has the required 200k DPS. That 200k or whatever the set number is for the TFO in question is the bare minimum and will be a massive challenge with not 1 second spare and everyone has to perform perfectly as there will be no leeway.
So outside of the tightly packed TFO’s like ISE the 18k DPSers will cause the TFO to fail. There is a minimum DPS for a lot of adv and Elite TFO’s and the assumption is each player will do more then the bare minimum which is am averaged of the required DPS so if the TFO was 200k DPS then everyone should be doing 40k at the bare minimum. Ideally everyone should be doing 60k+ so there is spare time and leeway. If the minimum DPS for the TFO is 200k then if the group is bang on 200k they will often still fail the TFO. To successfully pass the TFO without problem the group ideally needs to be above the minimum DPS set for the TFO.
I am not for locking people out of content. But a separate DPS check as a guideline would be very useful to help people make sure they hit the guidelines for advanced and Elite TFO's. If you are only doing 18k you shouldn't really be in Elite TFO's as you are not ready for them. Now there are exceptions like a low level friend joining from high level friends. I am talking more about random group with people you don't know. By the time you get to Elite you should be able to play at least to a competent level.
“Which begs another question - if players who do not meet all the arbitrary requirements set forth in the Tripartite of Failure are to be locked out of even being able to queue for higher level content, are the players who are vastly overpowered for Normal and Advanced difficulty locked out of queuing for lower difficulty TFO content? “
Why do you keep using the word arbitrary when none of this is arbitrary. The numbers if this feature was real would be based on averages, logic and facts not an arbitrary number. The TFO's at Adv and Elite are built around set DPS figures which is not an arbitrary number. You fall below that DPS required in your area or the group falls below the minimum DPS you fail. That's not arbitrary its a hard coded fact.
As for the high damage player they have every right to go into lower difficulty TFO content. There is no reason to stop them playing lower-level content. For me the point of the feature is not to stop players doing TFOs. It’s to give them guidance and let them know if they are ready for the TFO. At the moment there is no indication if you are ready for Advanced or Elite you just have to jump in and see if it fails.
I would challenge your point of view that the high DPSers are causing mass AFK’s problems in lower difficultly. Where is the evidence? From what I have seen the majority of the low DPSers would still be hit with AFK even without the high DPSers. In fact I have been gathering data running combatlogs in the current event and red Alert. Got some interesting graphs that is strongly suggesting the high DPSers are not causing problems and are bringing up the DPS level of the other members in the group rather then pushing them down. So they are not generally causing problem. There might be a few outliner cases but generally speaking high DPSers are helping rather then causing problems.
Many TFO’s have enough spread around content that the high DPSers does not impact the lower DPSers in a negative way. Take Defend Star Base 1 or the Swarm, Gauntlet each map has the players spread around defending their own points. 4 high DPSers and 1 low DPser in a map might cause problems but that is very, very rare. 1 perhaps 2 high DPSers is not generally causing any real problem. There will be a few outliner cases but not to the level you appear to be making out that it’s a wide spread problem.
“What happens if a player passes all three checks set forth in the Tripartite of Failure on one ship with one set of gear and one loadout, then switches ships, gear, consoles, BOFFs, traits etc. and falls below the minimum requirement? “
Either have it as a guideline rather then a hard lockout or what about something like if someone fails or underperforms in say 5 TFO’s in a row after passing the check they need to retake the check.
“It is way more than very likely that group can complete the content just fine without issue.”
At Elite no it’s not likely they can complete the content which is the point of the check. To stop the low DPSer going into content they are not ready for and failing the TFO for everyone in the team.
To spend all that money, and trust me to be a top DPS player you need to be spending in the 4-5 digits in this game to reach it.....
This comment is so far off the mark you missed the dart board and hit the moon. You don't need to spend a penny to get top DPS....all you need to do is copy a build off the net then claim you 'got gud' and 'got skill' But you're 100% incorrect about needing to spend money, especially tens of thousands!!
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
If you're having trouble getting to things before they're blown up, what are you doing to make sure you're able to get there in time first?
Let's take CSA, for instance. I fly to Cube 1, takes 30 seconds or so to blow it all up, and then I proceed to Cube 2... except it's gone already. This has nothing to do with mobility, but precisely with Damage Per Second: it takes me X seconds of output to do Y amount of damage. If I could do it faster, I'd be doing CSE.
What will I do about it? Em, nothing. This Advanced level was made for me. I shouldn't have to 'git gud', just because an Elite interloper decided to 'break' my-level TFO. That is like me asking you "When you have a weaker player in your team, what are you doing to make sure you're able to NOT get there in time first?"
Let's take CSA, for instance. I fly to Cube 1, takes 30 seconds or so to blow it all up, and then I proceed to Cube 2... except it's gone already. This has nothing to do with mobility, but precisely with Damage Per Second: it takes me X seconds of output to do Y amount of damage. If I could do it faster, I'd be doing CSE.
What will I do about it? Em, nothing. This Advanced level was made for me. I shouldn't have to 'git gud', just because an Elite interloper decided to 'break' my-level TFO. That is like me asking you "When you have a weaker player in your team, what are you doing to make sure you're able to NOT get there in time first?"
Couple of questions, do you mean ISA instead of CSA? Because when you say CSA I think of Crystalline instead of borg.
Second, are you actually getting hit with an AFK penalty or are you getting rewards from the TFO? If you're getting rewards you're not getting hit with an AFK penalty. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty then that means you did less than 1% of the damage for the run as ISA is one of the 1% maps. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty, how often are you getting hit with one? We talking a daily occurrence, once a week, twice a week? What kind of ballpark we talking, because if you're getting consistently hit with an AFK penalty, that is not normal at all.
Now with that said, the scenario you've described screams mobility issue to me. So I have to ask, what kind of ship are you flying and what engines are you using? Have you tried incorporating Emergency to Engines, Deuterium Surplus devices, using the Emergency Conn Officer or similar items? Are you using evasive maneuvers at all? Stacking evasive maneuvers along with deuterium surplus is more than enough to cross an ISA map super fast even in the beefiest of dreadnoughts, especially if you stack emergency to engines into that mix as well.
Even in something as big and beefy as the Borg Juggernaut I can cross the entire map in about 5 seconds or less using deuterium and evasive. Assuming a 30 second window to get in damage, that's still 25 seconds. Assuming it takes 5 additional seconds to set off my powers and I didn't charge them on route, that's still 20 seconds to get in some damage and is 5 full firing cycles with 8 weapons. When you are ready to move to the other side you can use Emergency to Engines to reset your Evasive Maneuvers if you have the Conn doff. Repeat the process of setting off your powers and firing which gives you 5 more firing cycles on the target, which is 10 full firing cycles of damage you're getting off. Assuming another 30 seconds in the middle of the map, even if you only get there with 10 seconds to spare, that's another firing cycle you can get in. In total you could've gotten off 11 FULL firing cycles of damage. What are you using and doing that you can't beat an AFK penalty with 11 full firing cycles of damage?
As for your analogy, if I'm hosting private runs I don't take people to content I know they're not ready for unless there was some kind of arrangement before hand. If someone is at 10k DPS why would I take them into something like Korfez, ISE, Dranuur Gauntlet, or any other elite when I know they're not ready for it? However we're not talking about private TFOs, we're talking about public runs with people you don't know. If people are going to insist that these evil DPSers are coming into TFOs and AFKing everyone all the time, I'm going to echo Potsey above and ask, where is the evidence of this? Do you have anything you can show me to demonstrate this?
Lastly, you do not have exclusive rights to lesser difficulties. So long as people have met the minimum standards for those TFOs, they have just as much right to be there as you do. If they are not meeting the standards that are hardcoded into the game itself, then in my book they have no right to be there yet.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Let's take CSA, for instance. I fly to Cube 1, takes 30 seconds or so to blow it all up, and then I proceed to Cube 2... except it's gone already. This has nothing to do with mobility, but precisely with Damage Per Second: it takes me X seconds of output to do Y amount of damage. If I could do it faster, I'd be doing CSE.
What will I do about it? Em, nothing. This Advanced level was made for me. I shouldn't have to 'git gud', just because an Elite interloper decided to 'break' my-level TFO. That is like me asking you "When you have a weaker player in your team, what are you doing to make sure you're able to NOT get there in time first?"
Couple of questions, do you mean ISA instead of CSA? Because when you say CSA I think of Crystalline instead of borg.
CSA = Cure Space Advanced
CCA = Crystalline Catastrophe Advanced
Second, are you actually getting hit with an AFK penalty or are you getting rewards from the TFO? If you're getting rewards you're not getting hit with an AFK penalty. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty then that means you did less than 1% of the damage for the run as ISA is one of the 1% maps. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty, how often are you getting hit with one? We talking a daily occurrence, once a week, twice a week? What kind of ballpark we talking, because if you're getting consistently hit with an AFK penalty, that is not normal at all.
It's almost as if you read none of my posts. But no, I have never incurred an AFK-penalty for doing too little DPS. Not even in Korfez I used to play. And why should I get an AFK-penalty in Advanced even? It's square at my level.
Now with that said, the scenario you've described screams mobility issue to me. So I have to ask, what kind of ship are you flying and what engines are you using? Have you tried incorporating Emergency to Engines, Deuterium Surplus devices, using the Emergency Conn Officer or similar items? Are you using evasive maneuvers at all? Stacking evasive maneuvers along with deuterium surplus is more than enough to cross an ISA map super fast even in the beefiest of dreadnoughts, especially if you stack emergency to engines into that mix as well.
My engine power is usually the lowest of them all. I just realized you can actually see my power levels in my signature image. And of course I use Evasive Maneuvers; but am not wasting a doff on it. Instead I use the Helmsman Trait, which gives me improved turn rate, and an Evasive Maneuvers every 50 seconds. It's not a mobility issue, though. In my example, Cube 2 is simply already gone when I turn around. Which was kinda my earlier point: it does not only take time to fly across a map, but also time to destroy a (group of) targets.
As for your analogy, if I'm hosting private runs I don't take people to content I know they're not ready for unless there was some kind of arrangement before hand.
In a private queue, you can bring whoever you want: that is entirely fair. You wouldn't invite me, and I wouldn't ask to be invited.
If people are going to insist that these evil DPSers are coming into TFOs and AFKing everyone all the time, I'm going to echo Potsey above and ask, where is the evidence of this? Do you have anything you can show me to demonstrate this?
I solo-ed a SB1 Elite, the other day. I managed, albeit barely. No way I could ever solo Korfez, of course (or even do enough DPS to be in an Elite team for that). But is this really an issue? I think those are just edge-cases. I never enter an Elite, simply because I don't want to embarrass myself. Nor have I ever incurred an AFK-penalty for doing too little DPS in an Advanced (I mean, I suck, but c'mon, I contribute more than 2%).
Lastly, you do not have exclusive rights to lesser difficulties. So long as people have met the minimum standards for those TFOs, they have just as much right to be there as you do.
Yeah, but that logic goes both ways; by your standards, you have no cause to complain if Advanced players enter 'your' Elite pugs. Turnabout is fair play.
I'm trying to understand y'all's math on this. Because it does seem like y'all are throwing out arbitrary numbers and assuming equal distribution of DPS. Sub 20k shouldn't be able to participate? If doing 1% of the total DPS is the minimum requirement to not end up with an AFK, and the total required DPS is 200k, then shouldn't the minimum requirement be 2k, presuming that the remaining 198k is spread out over the other 4 players? 🤔
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More than likely I average in the 15-20K category and that's fine with me. I probably do more in TFOs by the buffs of other players, but by myself I'm not that good. I could probably improve a lot, but I do fine.
My two quatloos is the same as BMR. I think players should have free choice about the content they play. If one is going into elite with a sub-par build and looking to be carried is not someone I'd want to fly with, but they still have the freedom of choice to do so. I myself would not go into elite with any of my builds, but they can get through advanced well enough to let me participate, should I choose to go into them.
Every game has players who want to be carried. They also have players who bumble into elite content not knowing they're about to be wiped. Then there are those players who know their limits and play within those limits. I play to purely have fun, not to test myself by how difficult I can make things for myself, which is why I usually play story content on Normal and save advanced for patrols and/or TFOs if I wanted to test myself a little bit.
I guess this was more than a couple quatloos lol.
DPS is a tricky pony, and depends not only on what you bring to the table yourself, but also on how your group fares. There's an optimum. Math and I aren't really on speaking terms, LOL, but way I remember it, ideally you're in a team that is better than you, but not so much better that you can no longer get in a shot, edge-wise. My own DPS has been highest when I was in such a team. A group slightly better than yourself elevates your own, personal DPS too.
Also, DPS is not an island, entirely on itself. When I was still chasing DPS, one of the highest scores I got, was from a helpful team member spamming APB3 on my foes (with Tholian pets). Aka, the damage I'm allowed to do, is very much contigent on the debuffs, for one, the others are doing.
Tl;dr: accurately measuring DPS is surprisingly difficult. You may parse, and say 'See, this is how much I did.' Sure, but will the number be the same in the next pug? Likely not. The abilities of the team as a whole matter, as well as the overall speed in which a TFO is completed. The only true measure of DPS would be a solo-map test, designed by Cryptic (with them parsing the DPS for you, in your little admittance test).
It's hard to argue with such logic.
Well, I tried to keep it short too (and succeeded). And kudos on the "tripartite of failure."
O, I do it all.
I do buy ships for their looks too (like when they have nice bridges). But, realistically, any Promo, or even a 'lowly' lock box ship, flown by a good pilot, should land a person well over 200k, at least. Suffice to say I'm not in that category.
I wholly reject the idea that "limit the DPS" or "high DPSers should bring lesser ships (as a courtesy)" are any kind of viable solution as it attempts to make other people responsible for something that they have no control over. I am not responsible for your fun in game, you are. By saying "limit the DPS" you are saying that YOUR fun of lower DPS ships is the correct way to play and those who enjoy higher DPS ships are wrong, thus you want them punished for not playing your way. I will give the people who have outright said "limit the DPS" one thing, at least they're honest about their intentions. When someone says "high DPSers should bring lesser ships" again they are trying to make other people responsible for their fun. And when they attach the "as a courtesy" bit it even comes with its own built in gaslight, because when you tell them you're not bringing a lesser ship just because of them they can gaslight you and say "you just don't care about your fellow players." Sorry but again I am not responsible for your ability to play the game. If you're going to insist that I bring a lesser ship so you can have a chance to compete, then I also get to demand you bring a ship that gives you the greatest chance to compete.
I wholly reject the idea that someone playing on a lower difficulty automatically amounts to them trolling. Not every TFO has an elite mode, and not every TFO has an advanced mode either such as ye old fleet alerts. While I have the ability to clear any elite in this game, I do not find constant elite runs to be fun and sometimes like to coast a little bit with some mindless destruction. Yet according to the viewpoint of "higher DPS people playing on lower difficulties = trolling" suddenly I'm being told that my fun is wrong and I'm not allowed to set foot in the lower difficulties, but they are somehow allowed to come into higher difficulties. Sorry but that is hypocrisy. If you believe someone is intentionally trying to troll other people, then gather your evidence and report that person for abuse of game mechanics. Otherwise I will not support any idea that amounts to guilty until proven innocent.
With that said I suggested the Gear Check, Role/Performance Check, and Dungeon Journal because they work and have been proven to work in other games. I do not accept that somehow STO is the magical exception to the rule where it's impossible. Certain TFOs in this game are built around people bringing a certain amount of DPS to the encounter, and if you don't you fail, with ISE and Korfez being 2 prime examples. If you can't clear the start of those TFOs, that's not me saying you aren't ready for that content, that's the game itself and by extension Cryptic saying you are not ready for that TFO. This means you are not meeting the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the game itself and are not ready to be in that content. It's one thing to clear the starting area's performance check and fail later due to an issue with a mechanic, it's another thing entirely to fail to the starting performance test. If you fail to the starting performance test, you won't be able to clear the later mechanics anyways.
The Gear Check, Role/Performance Check, and Dungeon Journal are there to give a reality check of where you actually are in terms of ability so you know if you've over-estimated yourself, under-estimated yourself, or are where you thought you are. If you are failing the Role/Performance check, you would fail the higher TFOs anyways as the Role/Performance check would be built like the higher TFOs. If you do fail, then the Journal will help you improve. If you can clear the checks, you will almost certainly clear the higher TFOs. I am not some evil rogue Q trying to "k33p those n00bs out of my TF0s". What I'm saying is the game itself is telling you that you're not ready yet, so lets take a step back and get you ready before trying again. Because all you're going to do otherwise is bang your head against the wall and cause it to fail for yourself and 4 other people on the team.
I see it as beyond ridiculous and unfair to expect 4 other people to carry the 5th. As I've said so long as people meet the minimum standards of the game itself, they have a right to be there. If they're not meeting those standards, then sorry but they have no business being there.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
You will never be able to hit exactly the same DPS every single time. There will always be some minor variation between the numbers. One run you may hit 50k, one you may hit 52k, another you may only hit 49k as hypotheticals. If you're seeing wild swings in either direction such as hitting 50k one run, 25k in another, 150k in a 3rd and so on, then that's not normal at all and means there is something going on that needs to be looked at.
To go through your example of a hypothetical TFO, I already have a feeling I know how this is going to go, but I'll go through it anyways. So first up in that hypothetical TFO requiring a combined total of 200k from the team, this means each person would need to sustain 40K DPS at a minimum to complete the TFO. Let's assume a slight variation on your example for a moment. Let's assume that 4 of the 5 people in there are at the 40k minimum and our 5th guy is at 18k, then NO the TFO should not proceed with that 5th guy as he is not ready for the content yet.
-Per your example as written with 2 people at 50k, 2 at 40k, and the 5th at 18k, the TFO would be exactly 2k short of the required 200k in order to complete it. In this instance as you have written it, NO the TFO should not proceed as again that guy at 18k is not yet ready for the content.
-Now I will assume a third variant of this scenario. Let's suppose the first 2 guys are at 50k, the second 2 are at 40k, and the 5th guy is at 20k. This would add up to exactly 200k, however the TFO still should NOT proceed as again that 5th guy is not ready for the content and is at half of the minimum required DPS.
Now you might say "see you just want to lock people out" however I am holding him to the same standard as everyone else. That guy is still free to join private TFOs with friends, just not the public TFOs. If his friends want to carry him through private runs, that's on them and something they are agreeing to. When joining public TFOs it's beyond unfair to them to expect them to carry that 5th guy. Even if they're capable, it's not their job.
People who do not meet the requirements are locked out of PUBLIC groups, not private groups. If people want to drag their friends through stuff on private groups they're free to do so. What people do in private runs is their business. When you start wanting to join PUBLIC groups, then there are certain standards that need to be met. So long as people meet the minimum standards required by the content itself, they will be allowed to enter the public groups. If they don't, they will be locked out of public groups until they do.
To answer the questions about who would be locked out of what.
-Would a person be locked out of higher tier content if they do not meet the standards for said TFO? Yes they would be locked out of public group runs of said TFO until they meet the standards for that TFO.
-Would a high DPS be locked out of normal and advanced TFOs? No they wouldn't. Reason being is they have met the minimum standards for that TFO as set forth by the TFO itself.
"but that's a double standard and you just want to lock out low dps people". No I'm holding them both to the same standard. Get to the minimum standards the TFO itself demands or exceed those standards and you are free to enter said content.
Again we're not talking about "arbitrary" requirements. If the game itself is saying "you need 200k from the team to succeed" then that's not an arbitrary number, but a specific requirement that has been set to clear the content. That's not the game suggesting you need 200k, but straight up saying if you don't pull the 200k you will fail.
As someone who has developed content for games, I'm telling you that you are severely overestimating what's required for this, and misrepresenting Gear requirements.
SWTOR keeps track of its gear in part by running a check when you place an item into a slot, and then updates the average item level on screen accordingly.
This can be done with a simple script in 5 minutes akin to an excel spreadsheet calculator. Then with regards to the Performance Test it's as simple as parsing the test map to see if people have met or exceeded the minimum standard. If they have then it unlocks.
In WoW, you DID NOT HAVE TO RETEST EVERY TIME YOU CHANGED SOMETHING. So to sit here and say people would have to do it for every single ship every single time is just flat out wrong. If I wanted to take the tank test on my Death Knight, I obtained my gear one time, then took the test one time and that was it for that toon. From there I was on my own. If for whatever reason I fell below one of those standards I wasn't locked out again. However, if for example I had all mk xii very rare gear across the board, there's no legitimate reason for me to have fallen below that gear level.
If I suddenly fell below those levels then folks knew I either wasn't trying or was trolling, something was going on outside of my control, or I needed to learn the mechanics better. If I was able to pass the gear and performance checks, there was no excuse for me not to learn the new stuff. So again YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST FOR EVERY SHIP AND LOADOUT. Again I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
A long time ago somebody in a deep space patrol quickly destroyed a hostile alien ship that I had engaged using an ability I knew nothing about. So I pm'd the player and asked them what they used. Apparently it was something called cannon rapid fire. So I wrote that down and attempted to get some more info on it.
This sort of practice (endeavoring to ask questions and try new things) is something that can keep rolling over a period of many years and is part of the game for some players. Some even seem to find this process of discovery interesting and rewarding.
My guy, WTH? It is not Cryptic's business model to restrict or lock anyone out of any content for any reason. Hence why the game went free-to-play and players do not pay for updates and expansions, and why something like what you're suggesting would likely never happen. In fact, Cryptic's track record has consistently been to allow as easy a path for player participation across the board as possible. I'm honestly surprised that you would advocate for something like this.
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so it's back to "git gud". for normal level TFOs.. the "l33ts" are showing their true colors in this thread. No longer play how you want to play, play OUR way. what's next? telling casual players to stop playing YOUR game YOUR way?
My comment was meant to highlight the advantages of mobility.
Yes, I'm recommending the use of an Emergency Conn Hologram and Emergency Power to Engines in any TFO.
It works good.
If anybody is tired of getting left behind this is only one of many simple ways to go faster more often.
I disagree. a DPS check to be used in assembling the Pug WOULD work. your 100KDPS players would be able to vape their way through a TFO in a minute while the 20KDPS teams would clear it in 10 minutes. it's a win win and it keeps all hands happy
^ Spot on, especially the emphasized part. @nixie50 gets it.
Seriously, the vibe I'm getting is, "We, the Elite, do not want you to drag down our Elite TFO, but we should feel free to enter your Advanced queues, and stomp all over, and ruin, your game." How's about we restrict NOBODY?! This is a casual game. "Your fun isn't wrong," remember? As BMR pointed out, it's outright dumb for a business like Crypric to lock people out. They didn't give me that gold-plated D'Kora all for nothing
I solo-ed a SB1 Elite, the other day. I managed, albeit barely. No way I could ever solo Korfez, of course (or even do enough DPS to be in an Elite team for that). But is this really an issue? I think those are just edge-cases. I never enter an Elite, simply because I don't want to embarrass myself. Nor have I ever incurred an AFK-penalty for doing too little DPS in an Advanced (I mean, I suck, but c'mon, I contribute more than 2%).
You guys are just talking about quality of life systems that would, in a vacuum, make life easier for some players, more difficult for others. Yet not once said how it would make the bank money if they invested in it. So aren't we leaping without looking? Into a pool with no water in it?
Why, if I was cryptic, would I care about any of this? Why would I care about your appeals to my sense of comradery and community? I'm a company not a charity. I want money, show me the money. Why would I change when I can do what i am currently doing and make the same money. When what you are suggesting could and more likely will lead to me making less money and putting in more work? Who knows what bugs or crashes could come from implementing a system. How many more people i will lose because i did something I was told would make players life supposedly better to only be yelled at by the other half that hated it.
Sure, in a vacuum it might help someone someday, but its not helping me, right now, make money.
So until someone address's that then it really doesn't make much sense to be passionate about an argument between and old man and the sea.... in my opinion.
It's like arguing over whom is going to get the best gift from santa, you ask for a ps5 and someone else ask for an Xbox and Santa gives you a game of "Guess who." to share. Technically every one got what they wanted. Yet no one is happy, and yet there are some people whom think that's the barometer of if you are a good person or not. By having everyone hate you.
I like the 'cold' logic of your replies.
Third, if the TFO itself requires 50k from every member to succeed, that is not my personal opinion as to what people need, that is the game itself saying "you need this much to succeed and if you don't you fail." Opinion would be if I said "I think people should have 50k dps minimum to join content X." So instead of getting mad at me, you need to get mad at Cryptic when those instances happen because they are the ones that set that standard, not me.
Arbitrary as defined by Webster:
-existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will.
-based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or intrinsic nature of something
Per your own example if a TFO requires 200k combined DPS from the team to clear it, that is not an arbitrary number it's not left to individual players to determine. That number would have been put in place by Cryptic itself meaning it would be necessary for the team to have a combined 200k to clear that TFO. That is not a preference, and it is not left to the individual, that is the game outright telling you that the team needs to do 200k or you fail. Again in that hypothetical that you yourself brought up before, get mad at Cryptic if you don't like it because they would have been the ones to set that standard. You and I as players have no control over that.
With regards to what the minimum output should be, that would be a Cryptic decision. Also I simply do not buy the argument that if you were good enough to meet that hypothetical 20k once that you couldn't do it again. Assuming the systems were in place, you would have the minimum stats needed to do so, you would have the mechanical knowledge to do so, so what would the problem be? If players are unable to meet the standard due to something outside of their control such as internet drop, nothing can be done about that. If they're unable to do it because of needing to learn the mechanics a bit more, then they will get it once they learn the mechanics a bit better. If they are having trouble getting the mechanics then they can ask for help as you've said before and "utilize the knowledge of the players." If people are able to figure things out as easily as you claimed, can ask others if they get stuck, and there is a ton of info out there, then what's the problem? Are you really going to suggest that suddenly after learning where to get the gear, how to generate the hypothetical 20k that magically they couldn't do it again?
So you're telling me that after 30 years of programming you can't create what amounts to an excel spreadsheet calculator script to do something the game already does? If you equip a console on your ship, it will plug the static stat values into a formula and update your stats in real time in your stats page. Are you really telling me that as a programmer you can't figure out how to plug numbers into a formula and have them display on screen? High schoolers taking a basic office class are taught how to make excel calculators and do exactly that. If they can do it, how can you not after supposedly programming for 30 years?
I'm sorry but as someone who has been creating content for other games for 20 years, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.
So you would be willing to swap to a build you admit is underpowered and deliberately troll a group even though you would be doing the exact thing you chide so called high DPSers for doing, only you would be doing it in reverse. Good to know you're willing to deliberately troll a group.
If you are capable of farming out the gear for one ship and getting it up to snuff, yet somehow suddenly stop meeting the standards the game/Cryptic itself set, then we know one of 3 things is going on. Either you're having internet issues or some RL thing, you're having issues with the mechanics of the TFO itself, or you're deliberately trolling the group in which case you give people grounds to report you and I would hope they do. And you've already admitting that in this instance it would be option 3 since you deliberately switched the gear out to troll the group. If you can farm out one set of gear for a ship and get it up to snuff, what is stopping you from doing so for the second ship save your own unwillingness to do so? Are you suddenly going to strip off all the gear from the first ship before you've farmed out what you need for the second?
I understand what I've suggested perfectly. I've advocated something that holds everyone to the same standard as set forth by the game itself and forces everyone to take responsibility for their ability to participate or lack of. You on the other hand have advocated that people like myself who by your definition would qualify as "high DPS" should have to bring lower DPS ships into runs "as a courtesy to allow others a chance to participate". All while simultaneously getting mad if/when someone like myself says if you get to "ask" that I bring in a lower DPS ship, I get to "ask" you to bring in a higher one. You've all but stopped short of saying you see it as trolling for a so called high DPS person to bring their higher performing ships into normal, but somehow I'm not allowed to be annoyed if you bring a low powered ship into higher tier content. You say that the door swings both ways, yet get really mad when folks like myself who would qualify as high DPS by your standards hold you to that same standard you want to apply to us.
It's really a simple concept if you want to understand it. Do you have the minimum gear, if yes you're good. Do you have the minimum performance, if yes you're good. ISE and Korfez already have built in performance tests, so are you going to argue those be removed since they're arbitrary or should they stay?
This right here is what I'm talking about. You say that us so called high DPS players should bring in lesser ships "as a courtesy so everyone has a chance to participate", yet you're getting mad that I said the TFO in that instance shouldn't continue because the 20k guy isn't pulling his own weight as he's below the 40k minimum. In other words it's okay for me to be asked to bring a lesser build and change for them, but not okay for me ask them to bring a stronger build and change for me. That is the epitome of hypocrisy.
In that instance, if the 20k guy wants to see that content he should go into private runs until he improves instead of trying to force 4 other people in public runs to carry him. I'm sorry but that's not fair to the other 4 people in that run. It's no different than working in an office and someone working half the hours their co-workers did while expecting to be paid for the same amount of hours as their co-workers. Why should those other 4 people have to carry that 5th guy? Why should he get a free ride when the other 4 have put in the work to be there? Private runs where the other 4 agree to carry him is one thing, trying to force 4 random people to carry a 5th is something else entirely.
If you really want to play that card dude, then by your own logic, is it acceptable for an under-qualified player to queue for content and ruin the fun for veteran players? If you're going to ask that I bring in a lesser build so you can participate, why can't I ask you to bring in a stronger build so you can participate?
This is why I asked at the start of the thread, and in the previous thread about this stuff, what are you running on your ship? This whole thing has been about people who say they can't participate because people are getting there before them and nuking everything before they can get a shot off. First are you actually getting an AFK penalty or are you getting rewards? If you're getting rewards then what's the problem other than it not being the most fun run? Are you running a slow ship or a fast one? Are you using a build with enough potential performance to beat the AFK penalty? Once we've verified that you have, then and only then can we take a look at other things. You start with the obvious first and then work your way out.
As for attitudes, I just have no tolerance for people who aren't willing to take even the smallest responsibility for their own ability to play or not play in a game. If you want to call me an elitist or what have you, then that's on you.
Your fun is not wrong, but neither is the fun of the high DPSers people have been ripping on and blaming for all their woes. If you bring a slow ship into a run and everyone gets there before you as a result, who's fault is that? If you're having trouble getting to things before they're blown up, what are you doing to make sure you're able to get there in time first? Have you tried changing ships to something faster and/or stronger? If you don't have something faster and/or stronger, are you trying to form your own private groups or asking for help? What are you doing to help yourself first before demanding change of others?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
The game went free to play because it would have tanked had it stayed subscription only. Cryptic does good with making sure the average players has plenty choose from in terms of ships, gear, and so on. Yet as much as I like the folks at Cryptic, they don't do very much to teach people how to use said equipment. There is a ton of basic concepts that should be covered that aren't. Such as turning on autofiring of weapons that's easily missed. Many people think that if a ship comes with a dual bank, torpedo, beam array and single cannon on the front of the ship that's how it has to be ran. They're not told for example you can run all beam arrays up front, all dual banks, or all dual cannons (Assuming the ship can run them). They're not told how to train their bridge officers or that being a tactical captain doesn't mean they're restricted to tactical only ships. There is ALOT imo that needs to be improved on in the information presentation department.
What I'm advocating is giving people a source for that basic info in the Dungeon Journal, which would also tell people where they can get bits of gear, such as if one was looking for phaser items. Then putting them on a path to learning how to take advantage of those items and preparing them for the advanced and elite TFOs. I'm not saying keep them locked out forever or they can never see the content. They could still join private groups until they've cleared the checks. What I'm saying is if they're going to join a public TFO where the TFO and game itself requires them to do 50k minimum as the hypothetical, they should be able to do that minimum. I'm not saying they can never participate, I'm saying take a step back and get your stuff in order first because they're going to fail if they don't because they're not ready. I don't see it as fair to the other 4 members for the run to fail because one guy wasn't ready for the content when it could have been prevented by teaching them before it ever got to that point.
I've given away billions of ec in ships, gear, traits and the like. I've also given away millions of dilithium worth of upgraded equipment to help people. You know I put my money where my mouth is. Which is why I'm going to make an offer to the OP @colonelmarik should he choose to accept it.
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You say you're having a hard time getting to stuff and participating correct? If you would like I am willing to sit down with you and go over your build to help you make sure you're not leaving mobility or otherwise on the table that could help alleviate this issue. Any ship, any energy type you wish. Start with the obvious stuff and work our way out. Eliminate build issues first, then look at tactics to see if there's something different we can do. If need be I will provide with a complete set of gear for your ship such as weapons, consoles, traits, and boff powers I am able to get my hands on, which includes lockbox items. I am willing to also upgrade those items up to mk xv ultra rare should they be needed, and if they hit epic, then even better. Should we determine the ship is at fault, I will hand you the cstore coupon I am sitting on and put you in a different ship that will allow you to get there faster while still being more to your liking. I will also kit said ship out for you up to the mk xv ultra rare items. I will also sit down on discord or in game to answer questions regarding said build and help you master it. This includes running missions to help you get said gear should it be a mission item I can't hand you. If you would like some assistance in trying to alleviate this issue, up to and including the help I have outlined above, then I am willing to help you to the best of my ability. Should you wish to take some time to think about my offer before saying one way or another, the offer will remain valid.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
So outside of the tightly packed TFO’s like ISE the 18k DPSers will cause the TFO to fail. There is a minimum DPS for a lot of adv and Elite TFO’s and the assumption is each player will do more then the bare minimum which is am averaged of the required DPS so if the TFO was 200k DPS then everyone should be doing 40k at the bare minimum. Ideally everyone should be doing 60k+ so there is spare time and leeway. If the minimum DPS for the TFO is 200k then if the group is bang on 200k they will often still fail the TFO. To successfully pass the TFO without problem the group ideally needs to be above the minimum DPS set for the TFO.
I am not for locking people out of content. But a separate DPS check as a guideline would be very useful to help people make sure they hit the guidelines for advanced and Elite TFO's. If you are only doing 18k you shouldn't really be in Elite TFO's as you are not ready for them. Now there are exceptions like a low level friend joining from high level friends. I am talking more about random group with people you don't know. By the time you get to Elite you should be able to play at least to a competent level.
Why do you keep using the word arbitrary when none of this is arbitrary. The numbers if this feature was real would be based on averages, logic and facts not an arbitrary number. The TFO's at Adv and Elite are built around set DPS figures which is not an arbitrary number. You fall below that DPS required in your area or the group falls below the minimum DPS you fail. That's not arbitrary its a hard coded fact.
As for the high damage player they have every right to go into lower difficulty TFO content. There is no reason to stop them playing lower-level content. For me the point of the feature is not to stop players doing TFOs. It’s to give them guidance and let them know if they are ready for the TFO. At the moment there is no indication if you are ready for Advanced or Elite you just have to jump in and see if it fails.
I would challenge your point of view that the high DPSers are causing mass AFK’s problems in lower difficultly. Where is the evidence? From what I have seen the majority of the low DPSers would still be hit with AFK even without the high DPSers. In fact I have been gathering data running combatlogs in the current event and red Alert. Got some interesting graphs that is strongly suggesting the high DPSers are not causing problems and are bringing up the DPS level of the other members in the group rather then pushing them down. So they are not generally causing problem. There might be a few outliner cases but generally speaking high DPSers are helping rather then causing problems.
Many TFO’s have enough spread around content that the high DPSers does not impact the lower DPSers in a negative way. Take Defend Star Base 1 or the Swarm, Gauntlet each map has the players spread around defending their own points. 4 high DPSers and 1 low DPser in a map might cause problems but that is very, very rare. 1 perhaps 2 high DPSers is not generally causing any real problem. There will be a few outliner cases but not to the level you appear to be making out that it’s a wide spread problem.
Either have it as a guideline rather then a hard lockout or what about something like if someone fails or underperforms in say 5 TFO’s in a row after passing the check they need to retake the check.
At Elite no it’s not likely they can complete the content which is the point of the check. To stop the low DPSer going into content they are not ready for and failing the TFO for everyone in the team.
This comment is so far off the mark you missed the dart board and hit the moon. You don't need to spend a penny to get top DPS....all you need to do is copy a build off the net then claim you 'got gud' and 'got skill'
Let's take CSA, for instance. I fly to Cube 1, takes 30 seconds or so to blow it all up, and then I proceed to Cube 2... except it's gone already. This has nothing to do with mobility, but precisely with Damage Per Second: it takes me X seconds of output to do Y amount of damage. If I could do it faster, I'd be doing CSE.
What will I do about it? Em, nothing.
Couple of questions, do you mean ISA instead of CSA? Because when you say CSA I think of Crystalline instead of borg.
Second, are you actually getting hit with an AFK penalty or are you getting rewards from the TFO? If you're getting rewards you're not getting hit with an AFK penalty. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty then that means you did less than 1% of the damage for the run as ISA is one of the 1% maps. If you are getting hit with an AFK penalty, how often are you getting hit with one? We talking a daily occurrence, once a week, twice a week? What kind of ballpark we talking, because if you're getting consistently hit with an AFK penalty, that is not normal at all.
Now with that said, the scenario you've described screams mobility issue to me. So I have to ask, what kind of ship are you flying and what engines are you using? Have you tried incorporating Emergency to Engines, Deuterium Surplus devices, using the Emergency Conn Officer or similar items? Are you using evasive maneuvers at all? Stacking evasive maneuvers along with deuterium surplus is more than enough to cross an ISA map super fast even in the beefiest of dreadnoughts, especially if you stack emergency to engines into that mix as well.
Even in something as big and beefy as the Borg Juggernaut I can cross the entire map in about 5 seconds or less using deuterium and evasive. Assuming a 30 second window to get in damage, that's still 25 seconds. Assuming it takes 5 additional seconds to set off my powers and I didn't charge them on route, that's still 20 seconds to get in some damage and is 5 full firing cycles with 8 weapons. When you are ready to move to the other side you can use Emergency to Engines to reset your Evasive Maneuvers if you have the Conn doff. Repeat the process of setting off your powers and firing which gives you 5 more firing cycles on the target, which is 10 full firing cycles of damage you're getting off. Assuming another 30 seconds in the middle of the map, even if you only get there with 10 seconds to spare, that's another firing cycle you can get in. In total you could've gotten off 11 FULL firing cycles of damage. What are you using and doing that you can't beat an AFK penalty with 11 full firing cycles of damage?
As for your analogy, if I'm hosting private runs I don't take people to content I know they're not ready for unless there was some kind of arrangement before hand. If someone is at 10k DPS why would I take them into something like Korfez, ISE, Dranuur Gauntlet, or any other elite when I know they're not ready for it? However we're not talking about private TFOs, we're talking about public runs with people you don't know. If people are going to insist that these evil DPSers are coming into TFOs and AFKing everyone all the time, I'm going to echo Potsey above and ask, where is the evidence of this? Do you have anything you can show me to demonstrate this?
Lastly, you do not have exclusive rights to lesser difficulties. So long as people have met the minimum standards for those TFOs, they have just as much right to be there as you do. If they are not meeting the standards that are hardcoded into the game itself, then in my book they have no right to be there yet.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
CSA = Cure Space Advanced
CCA = Crystalline Catastrophe Advanced
It's almost as if you read none of my posts.
My engine power is usually the lowest of them all. I just realized you can actually see my power levels in my signature image.
In a private queue, you can bring whoever you want: that is entirely fair. You wouldn't invite me, and I wouldn't ask to be invited.
In fact, I said pretty much the exact opposite:
Yeah, but that logic goes both ways; by your standards, you have no cause to complain if Advanced players enter 'your' Elite pugs. Turnabout is fair play.
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