P.S. Sorry @baddmoonrizin , this turned out longer than I had hoped. I tried to save you from the wall of text!
Thanks for noticing me. LOL
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
You know, just looking at this thread...I'm so proud of ya'll. This definitely could have descended into madness and screaming matches, and everyone's being so chill. Nice.
So the gear check thing, and infact anything to do with the serverside reading stats is out. The only other alternative then is to stop the high DPS folks getting into normal and advanced, but thats met with the same critics saying no.
It was one of the major STO YouTubers who reckons there's about 2000 regular players online in this game on an average day (I think it was a Mc STU video). It should be TRIPLE that number considering there are current series on air right now for the Star Trek franchise. When the player finishes the main storyline episodes and is thrown to the wolves in the random TFO's i'm guessing that's when retention numbers for this game falls off of a cliff edge, and the TFO's are essentially the bulk of the end game content.
Judging by steam stats the game has plateaued out, and that plateau has remained even after Picard and Lower Decks started airing. Someone has to ask the basic question...
...why?
Something is causing new players to leave and old players coming back to quit (again), and i bet its to do with the end game side of things. Getting an AFK penalty for something that's inherently not your fault would immediately cause casual players to lose interest and returning players to think twice about spending more time in the game. It's been seen on Twitch when some returning players have given STO a second chance and immediately quit the game while still live streaming because yeah...they got timed out in infected conduit.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Getting an AFK penalty for something that's inherently not your fault would immediately cause casual players to lose interest and returning players to think twice about spending more time in the game. It's been seen on Twitch when some returning players have given STO a second chance and immediately quit the game while still live streaming because yeah...they got timed out in infected conduit.
There are some Infected Space Advanced parses on page 4 of this thread. In one of them the high parse was 197.8 K. Three other players on that team parsed between 15-51 K. One player may have gotten an afk penalty at 3.75 K dps or 1.18% of the team's damage. If that player could double the amount of damage they do to about 7.5 K the penalty would probably have been avoided. Thoughts ?
The problem with DPS in this game is an inherently flawed game design. To understand this properly, we need to ask ourselves this question first, "What is killling your DPS?" The answer to that is simple: 'spacebarring...' but it shouldn't, really.
That is where the bad design comes in. Imagine you were working in a Word document, and every time you typed something, your entire computer would freeze a bit, and wait for you to have completed the key press (and subsequent action). That would be silly, right? Yet, this is how STO works. When you press an ability, pretty much everythings gets halted to process the key pressed, then the game proceeds to run. Now, you don't visually see your weapons stop firing, but everything gets temporality suspended, thus ruining your DPS. Instead of smooth, asynchronous processing of your key-presses (queueing your chosen abilities for the next firing cycle), the game just bluntly interrupts your entire output the moment you press an ability.
Now, this is bad design, for the same reason typing in a Word document freezing your entire computer at every keystroke would be bad design. But the the practical implication is that DPS now essentially just boils down to dexterity. And that is banale. Skill no longer plays into it -- unless you count the skill to time your keystrokes precisely between weapon cycles, whilst still be able to keep your overview of the battle. Of course, it matters whether you first activate an TT1, followed by AB1, or do things in a different order, but nothing to account for the difference between someone doing 600K vs. another person just pulling 60k. That is all just dexterity. And that is sad.
Personally, I fly top-ships with top-gear. And I'd like to think I know how to make good builds. Yet my DPS sucks. And primarily really because I lack the dexterity/precision hand-eye coordination to watch both my weapon cycles, and the game at the same time. I have long since made my peace with this, trust me: I am just here for space barbie now. My long-winded point being, however, that in a properly designed game, these huge DPS difference should simply not be able to exist. People with similar ships and gear should more or less be able to do the same DPS (some actual skill differences notwithstanding). Like a car that makes you use twice as much gas when you press the pedal at the 'wrong' moments. We wouldn't accept that; instead we'd want our car to deal with such matters on its own, without bothering, or heavily penalizing, us with the minutia.
Tl;dr: remove the severe brokenness of way abilities get applied, so DPS becomes more uniform again across the playerbase, so whatever DPS creep may occur, can also be handled more uniformly, whereas currently any attempt to make NPC tougher only ever punishes the weaker players.
Wait something related to Delta was per request ?
ahhh so your saying don't ask anything of Cryptic... or you'll get the best content ever and everyone will love it. That does sound good... I mean bad. I'm not sure.
No. They did some balance changes after a lot of feedback about the sheer XP and damage wall that spawned on release. Took some time to start balancing things out. I still remember having to grind like hell just to do the next mission in the Delta Arc. And it took me a whole hour just to do the mission Takedown, and most of that was just the space combat portion. I think they had originally balanced things around higher end builds. Anyways... the forums were on fire for a while after Delta Rising launched.
Oh man, I remember just within the past 2 years, when I attempted to finish the Delta arc with my older characters, the sheer difficulty I was met with. The Vaadwaur ships dealt so much damage I was shredded within seconds. This was before I wisened up to upgrade my gear, and then noticed that, while I didn't exactly become a DPS god...I DID become much less squishy.
Hehe, I was able to kill those vaadwaur back when, but it wasn't super-easy.
I tried a solo Elite, the other day, SB1. Turns out you can no longer solo-afk it, so I decided to do it the old-fashioned way: just killing the NPC's 'manually.' I was able to do it, but they bite hard at Elite (especially when you are by your lonesome self), and it was pushing the envelope for me. So, this is what I can do; if they resolve to up the difficulty significantly in these, I will be out.
I rather have a progression system. Where a player has to complete succesfully (with bonus objectives) unlock the next diffciculty. Wantto plat advanced? play Map Y a total of X times and with all objectives, want to play on elite? do it again on adv. Make rewards pay out the most on Elite. Let skills and work determine if a player has acces to higher rewards. Filter out the afk-ers and slackers this way.
DPS checks are kinda 1 sided. If that is all that matters than why have different classes? Rather track the activity of players, did they move the map, did they contribute by doing strats?
A game is to be played, with friends or alone.
The game is very easy and friendly to farm. Players don't need to do Tfo's to farm marks, there is an event each day so you have acces to each mark. Get your dil quota dailly within 2-3 minutes or just after max 3 tfo's (no need to do admirality annymore).
Endevours max your dps more than a legendary ship. The game is very easy.
For new players who dont wallet their way in and want to play it has become dangerous to play an event form time to time, since the game checks dps and if your unable to hit something because of the current meta and meta tracking you getafk penalty.
I often have to keep in mind to not start with dps, or just stop shooting, so newbies or alts can get their rewards in event runs.
In timegated runs, this isn't a problem. SInce enoughtime and spawns to get in your %, that also offers time to afk though, since dps is high enough to just get your score in 10 seconds for rewards.
"Reports of our depression are vastly exaggerated." "Anyaway, we don't often see a sense of humor in Section 31."
Here is the rub - would that low DPS player scored better and not been hit with the penalty if that one high DPS player who hit 197.8K was more in-line with the other three doing 15 to 51K? Food for thought.
In my experience generally no they would not be doing better if the high DPS player was not involved. Those under performing players are generally doing something fundamentally wrong with the build/piloting that wouldn't be fixed just because the High DPS player leaves. Not always but generally I find this is the case.
If you remove the high DPS player there is no one doing enough DPS to compensate for the under performing player that it doing below the DPS the TFO was deigned around. At which point the TFO can drag on or become even more unfun for all players involved. At which point I would argue the high DPS player is filling a useful position and making the TFO event a more fun experience. Which is the problem the high DPS player is both making the TFO worse for some players while making the TFO experience better for other players.
ISE is a great example mostly because I have numbers for that one so I know this is about right. If everyone is doing the required amount of DPS the TFO is built around aprox 110k DPS each then its a challenge but usually goes smoothly if everyone knows what to do. If 1 player is only doing 50k dps which is way below the requirements but there is a high DPS player the lack of DPS from the 50k player is compensated and the TFO completes with everyone having fun. If the high DPS player is removed the remaining players doing 110k dps which is the amount the TFO is built around cannot compensate and cover the 1 under performing player doing 50k.
In the case of ISE if we take an under performing player to be doing 5k or something near useless then a high DPS player doing 220k is enough to compensate for 1 under performing player. A high DPS player doing 330k is enough to compensate for 2 under performing players and 440k is enough to compensate for 3 players e.c.t . Suddenly 330k DPS ships don't seem to be unreasonable as having a buffer to cover 2 players when things goes wrong is valuable. Its not just to cover under performing players as we all have bad days, make mistakes, get distracted at the wrong moment or suffer from server lag or blips. The high DPS player has the DPS to cover that and pull the TFO back into being fun.
That's why personally I aim to build my ships around 300k to 400k ish DPS as I find that's enough to play every TFO and compensate for 2 teammates in all those moments listed above. Just this morning in the first TFO I ran 1 player did nothing. Pretty sure that player would have got hit with the AFK ban but the main point is my high DPS ship turned the TFO around as I could compensate for that player.
One thing snagged my eye, while discussing this tripartite check proposal.
"Role check."
How you gonna check somebody's understanding of their "role" in a game that's quite deliberately thrown the concept out the airlock? You can tank in an escort, you can DPS in a cruiser, you can heal in a sci ship, you can tank and DPS and heal in any kind of ship if you've got enough console slots - the Trinity isn't a thing in STO, thank the Great Bird.
Also what role would a Megawell fit under? Because it sure as hell ain't Healer, it draws Aggro, and it kills. So is it a hybrid Tank/DPS, straight DPS, or just... Megawell?
The only TFO with Gravity in its name is Gravity Kills.
I believe you're not supposed to shoot that ship, but grab something and take it to another ship. It's been so long since I tried that one that I can't really remember.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
What does gear checks have to do with the OP? if you want gear checks for advanced and elite content, fine, but it's not germane
to the OP. what does pertain is the lack of harder versions.
The OP complains about there being too much dps in the game and how they can't get a shot off to contribute because of this that or the other. I have asserted it's not a game issue but a player issue and folks need to take some responsibility for their own woes in the game. Others have advocated DPS limits to which I have advocated people need to be responsible for themselves instead of expecting others to nerf themselves on their behalf. I advocated a gear check, role check, and dungeon journal as a means of prepping people for content since the entire discussion sounds like bad luck of the draw and people not being ready for content.
In other words for people having issues of not being able to contribute, I am advocating 3 changes to get people ready and able to contribute if they're not currently and make sure they know where to get gear.
Exactly the point. erring on good intentions, the UberDPS player cleared the board on NORMAL. the last couple events (All of them?) are normal mode only. if an elite version had been available, again, assuming good intentions, the uber guy would have played that level and not been in the pug at all. if he had, then it raises the question of said player being a troll.
First, you can try and claim I am tunnel visioned on only one part of your idea all you like, it does not make it true. I have already addressed and proven how all three of your safety checks in your three part system are easily circumvented. You even admit as much in your response here;
So there you have it in your own words, two of your three safety checks are very easily bypassed. That renders them pointless and a waste of development time. All this shows is that a player figured out how to game the system to bypass these arbitrary requirements and is no measure of them being able to effectively contribute to changing conditions in a team setting. At least you are being honest and admitting that much, so thank you for the honesty.
The only thing you've proven is that you haven't understood what I am advocating or why. So I will break it down a bit slower. You have said previously you agree that people shouldn't be joining content with underpowered builds, such as a guy going into content with all mk iv gear and getting rolled as it's no fun for him or the group. You've also said that people need to take some responsibility for their woes in game. The point of the system is to force people to take that responsibility and remove excuses from them as to why they're not ready, while also prepping them for content.
-The entire point of the gear check is to prevent scenarios of people with inferior equipment from entering a TFO they're not ready for, such as your hypothetical player using all mk iv equipment in a level 65 run. The point of the Gear Check is to make sure people have updated their equipment to the appropriate level to contribute and survive. The Gear Check in WoW and the Gear Check I have advocated has not now nor ever cared how you got to the appropriate gear level, only that you do. Let's say the minimum gear level is mk xii very rare across the board. If you get there purely by missions then great, if you get there by buying it from the exchange then great. If you do both, then more power to you. Being able to buy the gear from the exchange isn't a bypass at all, but just one way for the system to do its job. It forces people to update to equipment appropriate for max level.
-The Role Check aka Performance Check is the other part of the equation. This makes sure that our hypothetical person who passed the gear check knows how to use that gear they've either earned and/or bought. Let's say the minimum was 30k DPS for level 65 to keep it simple. So long as that person hits the 30k DPS, be it through science, pure energy DPS, torps, mines, carrier stuff, or what have you, it wouldn't matter as they can get in the door.
-Lastly is the Dungeon Journal. This serves two purposes. First is telling people where they can obtain certain pieces of gear, such as phaser items as one example, or polaron in my case. It would also have basic mechanic information for different foes a person may encounter. Such as mentioning the Voth reflective shield that protects one side of the ship.
All of this together serves to make sure people are ready for the content they're going into. If someone is able to get the gear they need and pass the role/performance check, then great. This means that person is ready to go and doesn't need a ton of additional help. If the person gets stuck by the gear or role check, then they know they need to work on their gear and/or their mechanical knowledge.
Using our hypothetical person with the mk iv gear you mentioned, this removes the "i didn't know I need to upgrade my equipment" excuse from him, because it makes him do it before he can get in. If he doesn't know where to get it, the dungeon journal will tell him. If he gets held up by the role/performance check, he knows he needs to work on his mechanical knowledge. He looks at what part he's failing, looks in the dungeon journal and boom there he goes. Now he can't pull the "nobody told me how to beat (thing)" excuse because again he has the answer in front of him. Once the person has the basic gear, has the basic mechanical knowledge and the like, it makes my job easier when they step into content as I'm not having to explain basic concepts for 40+ hours until I'm blue in the face 30 times a week. I can see what their issue is and be like "hey dude this boss does (thing) use (thing)" or simple stuff.
This filters out the people like Bob who refused to learn and get better and made it a miserable experience for all. They will either get better and contribute, thus everyone has fun. Or they'll get mad and quit and everyone still has fun not dealing with him. For emphasis I DO NOT CARE HOW PEOPLE MEET THE MINIMUMS ONLY THAT THEY DO. If they're good enough to go straight in then great. If not, they work on it until they can.
Now for the bit in bold. This I find to be the most telling thing so far as in the context of everything else said, you're basically expecting a free ride on the coats of the other group members. There is a huge difference between grouping with friends and carrying them vs joining a random group and being expected to carry someone. If I group with a friend that is undergeared and carry them, that's a conscious choice that I made knowing full well what I was getting into. Someone joining a random group expecting a free carry is a leech and not something I or anyone else agreed to. I NEVER agreed to carry that person, nor should I or anyone else have to.
First, accusing me of wanting a free ride is an outright lie. Second, what I was referring to was pointing out how the hypothetical people you help carry through content renders your "dungeon journal" piece meaningless and also easily circumvented. You carried them through content, they did not learn it on their own fully and those same people do not only ever team with you alone, so you helped them bypass one of your security checks. That impacts others who may eventually team with them. I completely agree with you that no one should be expecting a free ride and to be carried in a public RTFO.
If someone is going into content with a subpar build with the attitude that someone else will carry them, or people support such a thing being acceptable, then I'm sorry but in my book that is expecting a free ride. Second, you've made some very bold assumptions about what happens if/when I agree to take someone through a piece of content when you've never played with me. You also still do not understand fully the interaction between the Gear Check and Role/Performance check.
So first up, private runs are not the same as public runs, not by a long shot. The Gear Check and Role/Performance checks never applied typically to private runs because again they were private, AND they never made use of the public group finder. If I have a fleetmate that's doing 15k DPS but the Role/Performance check requires 30k DPS minimum, that person is able to join me in private runs, but not public runs. If they want to join public TFOs outside the fleet, they still need to hit that 30k minimum. So even if they went on private runs with me a couple of times, they're still locked out until they meet the minimum standard. Sort of like how a 16yr old can drive around on private property without a license in some states but not on public roads. So long as they're on that private property they don't need the license, but if they want to be on the public roads they do. Me taking them into private runs does NOT constitute them having met the Gear or Role/Performance checks at all.
Now when I go into runs with friends/fleetmates who are undergeared and underperforming, it is with the goal of teaching them what to do and how to do it. The first time or two I will go in with a build similar to what they're wanting to do, or have an officer do it if I don't have such a build. We show them what we're doing and explain why it works. From there we sit them down and get them set as best we can. From there comes the trial by fire where they demonstrate what they've learned or haven't learned. Usually I am standing by in a cloaked ship observing like a teacher observing students in a classroom. If the person has learned what they need then great. If they still need work, we go back and work on the problem areas until they get it.
For those who do not have a fleet or people like us to help them yet, or anyone on at the moment they want to work on things, they have the dungeon journal to point them in the right direction. Neither you or I will always be able to be there to help people out.
This is another egregious lie. I did not suggest anyone should do this nor did I encourage anyone to do anything. I said someone could do it, not should do it. Please take the time to research the definition of and differences between the words "could" and "should." For the record, in case anyone else is confused, do not do anything to break the ToS. If you do, you deserve what you get.
As for some of the inaccuracies, you seem to struggle with questions that are rhetorical. As I said in my posts, players can bring whatever build they want into a RTFO. I would be happy to re-quote all of the times I have said that here if you do not want to take the time to re-read them. The question was more a rhetorical discussion about what is best etiquette for public content. Is it selfish for someone to dominate a map and clear it before everyone else? Is it selfish to ask a player who has high performing DPS build to tone themselves down or use a loadout so they allow others to have time to participate? It is selfish to expect others to carry you and your sub par ship? Is it selfish to queue up for Elite level content with a sub par build and skills? All are in my opinion. How I choose to behave faced with the situation is obviously entirely different than you. If you choose to bring your high DPS build to wipe out an event map in 30 seconds before others can participate, more power to you. Do what works best for you. I may feel that is a bit discourteous, but that is my opinion only and you are more than welcome to disagree and play how you like.
Here is one area where I see you are definitely very confused and are struggling with reading comprehension -
The way you said it suggested that people could do it. If you didn't mean it that way fine, you should have clarified better. With that said, I would advise not even bringing that sort of thing up at all for reasons that should be obvious.
With that said, to answer your questions.
-Is it selfish for someone to dominate a map and clear it before others can get there? no it's not. Per my previous example, if I join a random TFO with a ship that moves at the speed of smell and get grouped with 4 pilot ships that can move far faster than me and they vape it all before I get there, that's my fault and not theirs. I had the same potential to bring in a fast ship like they did, I simply chose not to and it bit my in the aft shuttle bay.
-Is it selfish to ask people with higher performing builds to nerf themselves for those who aren't yet at their level? yes it absolutely is. Because one person is demanding the other 4 people in the run use something different because they don't like it instead of taking something that allows them to participate. It's like going to a high level MTG tournament with a starter deck then complaining everyone smoked you with higher powered decks and you didn't get to play much. Sorry you didn't get to play much but you could've taken a stronger deck, yet you chose not to. If you didn't yet have a stronger deck, you could've waited until you did but again chose not to. It's not the fault of the other tournament players you chose to come unprepared.
-Is it selfish to expect others to carry you and your subpar ship? yes it absolutely is. Because again one person is expecting 4 other people to carry them on a free ride. Sort of like a team of 5 office workers where one guy expects the other 4 to do their job plus his, while he still expects the same pay as the other 4. Sorry but that 5th guy needs to go.
-Is it selfish to queue for Elite content with subpar build and skills? yes it is because again that person is expecting a free ride and the team to make up for their lack of ability. see above with the office worker example.
I have always advocated that people take advantage of the tools available to them to socialize and find like minded players because it will absolutely solve a lot of the problems they have. Things like getting hit with AFK penalties because of high DPS players, dealing with AFKers etc. all go away if you are teamed with and playing with friends and/or like minded players who share similar styles as you.
As you well know from posts over the years, many people have come up with a whole host of reasons why they cannot socialize, whether that be due to a lack of time, bad experiences with fleets, playing at off-peak hours and such. Fair enough. I disagree with a lot of the reasons people have given over the years, but that is my opinion only. That is your reason threads like this are still here and why people are debating the issue. For whatever reason, people use the random grouping option.
You've advocated people form random groups, which I agree with that part. People will always have the private group option which is one I highly recommend people utilize. I will agree alot of times people do in fact make excuses as to why they can't do this, that or the other thing. Most of the time it's just that, excuses, but sometimes it's valid. Even the most social person will run into those times when none of their friends are on and they're unable to put a private group together and have to either resort to the random group finder, or simply not play at all.
Again I agree private groups are a great option and one more people should use, such as if they want to avoid high DPSers killing things before they feel they've had a chance to play, and avoid some of the lower DPSers on the opposite side of the coin. While that works in the immediate, it still doesn't address issues with the random group finder itself. You're just kicking the can down the road. Clearly you agree there is some kind of issues with the random feature or you wouldn't still be here debating it. So it's a discussion that needs to be had. I'm of the mindset that responsibility ultimately starts and stops with the individual player for their experience in game. They alone are responsible for their build and their experience, I am not.
I must say, you seem to take people rejecting your ideas very personally, accusing them of "not wanting change" and then storming off in a huff when you do not get your way. Rejecting a very bad, very poorly thought out and very flawed idea is not the same thing as not wanting change. It is just rejecting a very bad, very poorly thought out and very flawed idea.
Come up with something that is not so easily circumvented, does not require an inordinate amount of developer time to build and maintain and I am sure people will happily discuss the merits of it or lack thereof.
Actually there are easy fixes for this, with the system I suggested being one that has been proven to work in other games. Many many games have some form of gear check and role/performance check in them. This isn't unique to WoW. Some of those games started out with those things, some added them later, why because it works. The problem I see here is alot of people don't like the idea because it may challenge their idea of their own ability and show them they're not really where they think they are. It's got nothing to with me "storming off in a huff when I don't get my way", but people making every excuse under the sun as to why this or that can't work, and none of them valid. Or when someone suggests change those same people try to shoot it down, because again I don't believe they really want change.
See above again, what you're calling circumventing is the system doing its job. You've said people with subpar builds and skills shouldn't be taking those builds into TFOs. You had also given the example of someone joining a tfo with mk iv gear on his ship because he never upgraded, thus causing a TFO to fail. You've also said you don't like the idea of people not being able to participate. This system filters out the people like the guy who is only in mk iv gear, and filters out the people with subpar skills trying to join TFOs beyond their immediate skill set. Once they update their equipment and demonstrate they're ready, they can join the TFO.
It ensures everyone has a level of equipment and skill necessary to participate. If they get in there and something happens, then again it narrows it to one of 3 things, something beyond their control, them needing a bit more mechanical knowledge for that particular TFO, or them simply not trying.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I think the problem is more than whether someone is getting a penalty. Bottom line, I play to have fun. I don't care if I get loot, I don't care if I get xp, none of that matters, I play to have FUN... and it's just not any fun being unable to participate, either because the mission is over in the blink of an eye, or because the mission has been absurdly overtuned in order to challenge the mega-dps players.
I don't imagine I'm the only one that feels like this. I don't think the solution is to make more content that's unplayable by a large portion of the playerbase, I think the better solution would be to bring that top end down to a more reasonable level, both the difficulty of the content AND the damage output players can achieve. Unfortunately, I don't really know how they could DO that without completely outraging a lot of the players.
The two bits in bold are diametrically opposed to one another and not compatible at all.
First, everyone plays for fun as that's the point of games. Otherwise why are you playing? If you don't like flying what you would consider a mega DPS ship, then by all means don't. Your fun is not wrong. At the same time, neither is the fun of those people who DO enjoy flying mega DPS ships. The problem you have with the two bits in bold is your solution to your not having fun is to take the fun away from others. You say you're not having fun because you feel you are unable to participate. Yet instead of being willing to alter your builds and tactics to be able to participate, you're advocating the fun of others be limited so you don't have to change.
To borrow the analogy I gave to Val previously. The line of logic you're advocating is like going to a MTG tournament using only a starter deck because you find them to be more balanced and fun, getting rolled at said tournament, then complaining that you didn't get to participate and play as much because everyone else was using stronger decks. You could have taken a stronger deck that would've allowed you to participate and play longer, but you chose not to. Instead you are advocating myself and others with the stronger decks have our decks limited and nerfed because you chose to bring a starter deck and couldn't keep up. If you chose to bring a starter deck and everyone else brought stronger decks that rolled you in 2 turns, how is that their fault that you chose to bring something you knew wouldn't let you participate as much as everyone else?
As much as you don't want to hear it, your solution in this instance is to bring a better build that will allow you to participate more. No one is responsible for your ability to participate but you. If I bring a cruiser that moves at the speed of smell and get paired with 4 pilot ships that zip around and nuke things before I can even get a shot off because I'm too slow, that's my own fault, not theirs. I'm sorry you're having a hard time participating, but to continue with the MTG analogy, demanding others bring less powerful decks to a tournament because you brought a starter deck isn't the way to go and will only get much deserved pushback. If you can't bring a stronger build/deck, then build yourself up until you can and come back later.
Exactly the point. erring on good intentions, the UberDPS player cleared the board on NORMAL. the last couple events (All of them?) are normal mode only. if an elite version had been available, again, assuming good intentions, the uber guy would have played that level and not been in the pug at all. if he had, then it raises the question of said player being a troll.
Again I agree with people who say the advanced and elite versions of events never should've been taken out. Let people choose the difficulty they want to play at and let the cards fall where they may.
With that said, I reject the premise that just because someone with a higher DPS plays on a lower difficulty it somehow means that person has bad intentions or is being a troll. I have the ability to play anything in this game on elite should I choose to do so. However there are times when I simply want something done as quickly as possible and don't want to deal with the headache that can be elite at times. Contrary to popular belief, people like myself who have the ability to play elite like to have a little mindless fun from time to time.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Sorry I couldn't resist. While I am glad you guys are having a civil debate... wow the walls of text.
I did try to keep it short! I really did!
If that's you keeping it short I'm afraid what you taking your time would look like
EDIT:Seriously though even when I don't agree with your arguments, you try to make solid argument rather then just resorting to name calling or other emotional responses.
I haven't been on the Forums as much as I'd like due to a Family Emergency and being stuck on my cousin's playstation.
Personally It all depends on how people build their ships, I usually try to recreate whatever build the shows versions uses, like a Romulan Warbird uses disruptors in the Shows, so mine would also use Disruptors, it does some damage but not enough to one-shot enemies, I say it's about an average build,
the main issue is power creep, personally I think nerfs are in order since the game is still somewhat challenging, TRIBBLE Vaadwaur, Benthans and Voth nonsense with them always blowing stuff up and spawn camping.
Delta Quadrant needs a remaster like the the B'Vat missions just get rid of the unnecessary content like patrols and move them somewhere else.
Anyways back to DPS, why is this game so DPS heavy, Why can't we solve missions with Diplomacy instead like Starfleet?
I'm curious about how players with leveless equipment would be affected by this hypothetical gear check. 🤔
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*dies*
Sorry I couldn't resist. While I am glad you guys are having a civil debate... wow the walls of text.
Thanks for noticing me. LOL
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It was one of the major STO YouTubers who reckons there's about 2000 regular players online in this game on an average day (I think it was a Mc STU video). It should be TRIPLE that number considering there are current series on air right now for the Star Trek franchise. When the player finishes the main storyline episodes and is thrown to the wolves in the random TFO's i'm guessing that's when retention numbers for this game falls off of a cliff edge, and the TFO's are essentially the bulk of the end game content.
Judging by steam stats the game has plateaued out, and that plateau has remained even after Picard and Lower Decks started airing. Someone has to ask the basic question...
...why?
Something is causing new players to leave and old players coming back to quit (again), and i bet its to do with the end game side of things. Getting an AFK penalty for something that's inherently not your fault would immediately cause casual players to lose interest and returning players to think twice about spending more time in the game. It's been seen on Twitch when some returning players have given STO a second chance and immediately quit the game while still live streaming because yeah...they got timed out in infected conduit.
There are some Infected Space Advanced parses on page 4 of this thread. In one of them the high parse was 197.8 K. Three other players on that team parsed between 15-51 K. One player may have gotten an afk penalty at 3.75 K dps or 1.18% of the team's damage. If that player could double the amount of damage they do to about 7.5 K the penalty would probably have been avoided. Thoughts ?
That is where the bad design comes in. Imagine you were working in a Word document, and every time you typed something, your entire computer would freeze a bit, and wait for you to have completed the key press (and subsequent action). That would be silly, right? Yet, this is how STO works.
Now, this is bad design, for the same reason typing in a Word document freezing your entire computer at every keystroke would be bad design. But the the practical implication is that DPS now essentially just boils down to dexterity. And that is banale. Skill no longer plays into it -- unless you count the skill to time your keystrokes precisely between weapon cycles, whilst still be able to keep your overview of the battle. Of course, it matters whether you first activate an TT1, followed by AB1, or do things in a different order, but nothing to account for the difference between someone doing 600K vs. another person just pulling 60k. That is all just dexterity. And that is sad.
Personally, I fly top-ships with top-gear. And I'd like to think I know how to make good builds. Yet my DPS sucks. And primarily really because I lack the dexterity/precision hand-eye coordination to watch both my weapon cycles, and the game at the same time. I have long since made my peace with this, trust me: I am just here for space barbie now.
Tl;dr: remove the severe brokenness of way abilities get applied, so DPS becomes more uniform again across the playerbase, so whatever DPS creep may occur, can also be handled more uniformly, whereas currently any attempt to make NPC tougher only ever punishes the weaker players.
Hehe, I was able to kill those vaadwaur back when, but it wasn't super-easy.
I tried a solo Elite, the other day, SB1. Turns out you can no longer solo-afk it, so I decided to do it the old-fashioned way: just killing the NPC's 'manually.' I was able to do it, but they bite hard at Elite (especially when you are by your lonesome self), and it was pushing the envelope for me. So, this is what I can do; if they resolve to up the difficulty significantly in these, I will be out.
DPS checks are kinda 1 sided. If that is all that matters than why have different classes? Rather track the activity of players, did they move the map, did they contribute by doing strats?
A game is to be played, with friends or alone.
The game is very easy and friendly to farm. Players don't need to do Tfo's to farm marks, there is an event each day so you have acces to each mark. Get your dil quota dailly within 2-3 minutes or just after max 3 tfo's (no need to do admirality annymore).
Endevours max your dps more than a legendary ship. The game is very easy.
For new players who dont wallet their way in and want to play it has become dangerous to play an event form time to time, since the game checks dps and if your unable to hit something because of the current meta and meta tracking you getafk penalty.
I often have to keep in mind to not start with dps, or just stop shooting, so newbies or alts can get their rewards in event runs.
In timegated runs, this isn't a problem. SInce enoughtime and spawns to get in your %, that also offers time to afk though, since dps is high enough to just get your score in 10 seconds for rewards.
"Anyaway, we don't often see a sense of humor in Section 31."
If you remove the high DPS player there is no one doing enough DPS to compensate for the under performing player that it doing below the DPS the TFO was deigned around. At which point the TFO can drag on or become even more unfun for all players involved. At which point I would argue the high DPS player is filling a useful position and making the TFO event a more fun experience. Which is the problem the high DPS player is both making the TFO worse for some players while making the TFO experience better for other players.
ISE is a great example mostly because I have numbers for that one so I know this is about right. If everyone is doing the required amount of DPS the TFO is built around aprox 110k DPS each then its a challenge but usually goes smoothly if everyone knows what to do. If 1 player is only doing 50k dps which is way below the requirements but there is a high DPS player the lack of DPS from the 50k player is compensated and the TFO completes with everyone having fun. If the high DPS player is removed the remaining players doing 110k dps which is the amount the TFO is built around cannot compensate and cover the 1 under performing player doing 50k.
In the case of ISE if we take an under performing player to be doing 5k or something near useless then a high DPS player doing 220k is enough to compensate for 1 under performing player. A high DPS player doing 330k is enough to compensate for 2 under performing players and 440k is enough to compensate for 3 players e.c.t . Suddenly 330k DPS ships don't seem to be unreasonable as having a buffer to cover 2 players when things goes wrong is valuable. Its not just to cover under performing players as we all have bad days, make mistakes, get distracted at the wrong moment or suffer from server lag or blips. The high DPS player has the DPS to cover that and pull the TFO back into being fun.
That's why personally I aim to build my ships around 300k to 400k ish DPS as I find that's enough to play every TFO and compensate for 2 teammates in all those moments listed above. Just this morning in the first TFO I ran 1 player did nothing. Pretty sure that player would have got hit with the AFK ban but the main point is my high DPS ship turned the TFO around as I could compensate for that player.
"Role check."
How you gonna check somebody's understanding of their "role" in a game that's quite deliberately thrown the concept out the airlock? You can tank in an escort, you can DPS in a cruiser, you can heal in a sci ship, you can tank and DPS and heal in any kind of ship if you've got enough console slots - the Trinity isn't a thing in STO, thank the Great Bird.
I believe you're not supposed to shoot that ship, but grab something and take it to another ship. It's been so long since I tried that one that I can't really remember.
Exactly the point. erring on good intentions, the UberDPS player cleared the board on NORMAL. the last couple events (All of them?) are normal mode only. if an elite version had been available, again, assuming good intentions, the uber guy would have played that level and not been in the pug at all. if he had, then it raises the question of said player being a troll.
-The entire point of the gear check is to prevent scenarios of people with inferior equipment from entering a TFO they're not ready for, such as your hypothetical player using all mk iv equipment in a level 65 run. The point of the Gear Check is to make sure people have updated their equipment to the appropriate level to contribute and survive. The Gear Check in WoW and the Gear Check I have advocated has not now nor ever cared how you got to the appropriate gear level, only that you do. Let's say the minimum gear level is mk xii very rare across the board. If you get there purely by missions then great, if you get there by buying it from the exchange then great. If you do both, then more power to you. Being able to buy the gear from the exchange isn't a bypass at all, but just one way for the system to do its job. It forces people to update to equipment appropriate for max level.
-The Role Check aka Performance Check is the other part of the equation. This makes sure that our hypothetical person who passed the gear check knows how to use that gear they've either earned and/or bought. Let's say the minimum was 30k DPS for level 65 to keep it simple. So long as that person hits the 30k DPS, be it through science, pure energy DPS, torps, mines, carrier stuff, or what have you, it wouldn't matter as they can get in the door.
-Lastly is the Dungeon Journal. This serves two purposes. First is telling people where they can obtain certain pieces of gear, such as phaser items as one example, or polaron in my case. It would also have basic mechanic information for different foes a person may encounter. Such as mentioning the Voth reflective shield that protects one side of the ship.
All of this together serves to make sure people are ready for the content they're going into. If someone is able to get the gear they need and pass the role/performance check, then great. This means that person is ready to go and doesn't need a ton of additional help. If the person gets stuck by the gear or role check, then they know they need to work on their gear and/or their mechanical knowledge.
Using our hypothetical person with the mk iv gear you mentioned, this removes the "i didn't know I need to upgrade my equipment" excuse from him, because it makes him do it before he can get in. If he doesn't know where to get it, the dungeon journal will tell him. If he gets held up by the role/performance check, he knows he needs to work on his mechanical knowledge. He looks at what part he's failing, looks in the dungeon journal and boom there he goes. Now he can't pull the "nobody told me how to beat (thing)" excuse because again he has the answer in front of him. Once the person has the basic gear, has the basic mechanical knowledge and the like, it makes my job easier when they step into content as I'm not having to explain basic concepts for 40+ hours until I'm blue in the face 30 times a week. I can see what their issue is and be like "hey dude this boss does (thing) use (thing)" or simple stuff.
This filters out the people like Bob who refused to learn and get better and made it a miserable experience for all. They will either get better and contribute, thus everyone has fun. Or they'll get mad and quit and everyone still has fun not dealing with him. For emphasis I DO NOT CARE HOW PEOPLE MEET THE MINIMUMS ONLY THAT THEY DO. If they're good enough to go straight in then great. If not, they work on it until they can.
If someone is going into content with a subpar build with the attitude that someone else will carry them, or people support such a thing being acceptable, then I'm sorry but in my book that is expecting a free ride. Second, you've made some very bold assumptions about what happens if/when I agree to take someone through a piece of content when you've never played with me. You also still do not understand fully the interaction between the Gear Check and Role/Performance check.
So first up, private runs are not the same as public runs, not by a long shot. The Gear Check and Role/Performance checks never applied typically to private runs because again they were private, AND they never made use of the public group finder. If I have a fleetmate that's doing 15k DPS but the Role/Performance check requires 30k DPS minimum, that person is able to join me in private runs, but not public runs. If they want to join public TFOs outside the fleet, they still need to hit that 30k minimum. So even if they went on private runs with me a couple of times, they're still locked out until they meet the minimum standard. Sort of like how a 16yr old can drive around on private property without a license in some states but not on public roads. So long as they're on that private property they don't need the license, but if they want to be on the public roads they do. Me taking them into private runs does NOT constitute them having met the Gear or Role/Performance checks at all.
Now when I go into runs with friends/fleetmates who are undergeared and underperforming, it is with the goal of teaching them what to do and how to do it. The first time or two I will go in with a build similar to what they're wanting to do, or have an officer do it if I don't have such a build. We show them what we're doing and explain why it works. From there we sit them down and get them set as best we can. From there comes the trial by fire where they demonstrate what they've learned or haven't learned. Usually I am standing by in a cloaked ship observing like a teacher observing students in a classroom. If the person has learned what they need then great. If they still need work, we go back and work on the problem areas until they get it.
For those who do not have a fleet or people like us to help them yet, or anyone on at the moment they want to work on things, they have the dungeon journal to point them in the right direction. Neither you or I will always be able to be there to help people out.
The way you said it suggested that people could do it. If you didn't mean it that way fine, you should have clarified better. With that said, I would advise not even bringing that sort of thing up at all for reasons that should be obvious.
With that said, to answer your questions.
-Is it selfish for someone to dominate a map and clear it before others can get there? no it's not. Per my previous example, if I join a random TFO with a ship that moves at the speed of smell and get grouped with 4 pilot ships that can move far faster than me and they vape it all before I get there, that's my fault and not theirs. I had the same potential to bring in a fast ship like they did, I simply chose not to and it bit my in the aft shuttle bay.
-Is it selfish to ask people with higher performing builds to nerf themselves for those who aren't yet at their level? yes it absolutely is. Because one person is demanding the other 4 people in the run use something different because they don't like it instead of taking something that allows them to participate. It's like going to a high level MTG tournament with a starter deck then complaining everyone smoked you with higher powered decks and you didn't get to play much. Sorry you didn't get to play much but you could've taken a stronger deck, yet you chose not to. If you didn't yet have a stronger deck, you could've waited until you did but again chose not to. It's not the fault of the other tournament players you chose to come unprepared.
-Is it selfish to expect others to carry you and your subpar ship? yes it absolutely is. Because again one person is expecting 4 other people to carry them on a free ride. Sort of like a team of 5 office workers where one guy expects the other 4 to do their job plus his, while he still expects the same pay as the other 4. Sorry but that 5th guy needs to go.
-Is it selfish to queue for Elite content with subpar build and skills? yes it is because again that person is expecting a free ride and the team to make up for their lack of ability. see above with the office worker example.
You've advocated people form random groups, which I agree with that part. People will always have the private group option which is one I highly recommend people utilize. I will agree alot of times people do in fact make excuses as to why they can't do this, that or the other thing. Most of the time it's just that, excuses, but sometimes it's valid. Even the most social person will run into those times when none of their friends are on and they're unable to put a private group together and have to either resort to the random group finder, or simply not play at all.
Again I agree private groups are a great option and one more people should use, such as if they want to avoid high DPSers killing things before they feel they've had a chance to play, and avoid some of the lower DPSers on the opposite side of the coin. While that works in the immediate, it still doesn't address issues with the random group finder itself. You're just kicking the can down the road. Clearly you agree there is some kind of issues with the random feature or you wouldn't still be here debating it. So it's a discussion that needs to be had. I'm of the mindset that responsibility ultimately starts and stops with the individual player for their experience in game. They alone are responsible for their build and their experience, I am not.
Actually there are easy fixes for this, with the system I suggested being one that has been proven to work in other games. Many many games have some form of gear check and role/performance check in them. This isn't unique to WoW. Some of those games started out with those things, some added them later, why because it works. The problem I see here is alot of people don't like the idea because it may challenge their idea of their own ability and show them they're not really where they think they are. It's got nothing to with me "storming off in a huff when I don't get my way", but people making every excuse under the sun as to why this or that can't work, and none of them valid. Or when someone suggests change those same people try to shoot it down, because again I don't believe they really want change.
See above again, what you're calling circumventing is the system doing its job. You've said people with subpar builds and skills shouldn't be taking those builds into TFOs. You had also given the example of someone joining a tfo with mk iv gear on his ship because he never upgraded, thus causing a TFO to fail. You've also said you don't like the idea of people not being able to participate. This system filters out the people like the guy who is only in mk iv gear, and filters out the people with subpar skills trying to join TFOs beyond their immediate skill set. Once they update their equipment and demonstrate they're ready, they can join the TFO.
It ensures everyone has a level of equipment and skill necessary to participate. If they get in there and something happens, then again it narrows it to one of 3 things, something beyond their control, them needing a bit more mechanical knowledge for that particular TFO, or them simply not trying.
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First, everyone plays for fun as that's the point of games. Otherwise why are you playing? If you don't like flying what you would consider a mega DPS ship, then by all means don't. Your fun is not wrong. At the same time, neither is the fun of those people who DO enjoy flying mega DPS ships. The problem you have with the two bits in bold is your solution to your not having fun is to take the fun away from others. You say you're not having fun because you feel you are unable to participate. Yet instead of being willing to alter your builds and tactics to be able to participate, you're advocating the fun of others be limited so you don't have to change.
To borrow the analogy I gave to Val previously. The line of logic you're advocating is like going to a MTG tournament using only a starter deck because you find them to be more balanced and fun, getting rolled at said tournament, then complaining that you didn't get to participate and play as much because everyone else was using stronger decks. You could have taken a stronger deck that would've allowed you to participate and play longer, but you chose not to. Instead you are advocating myself and others with the stronger decks have our decks limited and nerfed because you chose to bring a starter deck and couldn't keep up. If you chose to bring a starter deck and everyone else brought stronger decks that rolled you in 2 turns, how is that their fault that you chose to bring something you knew wouldn't let you participate as much as everyone else?
As much as you don't want to hear it, your solution in this instance is to bring a better build that will allow you to participate more. No one is responsible for your ability to participate but you. If I bring a cruiser that moves at the speed of smell and get paired with 4 pilot ships that zip around and nuke things before I can even get a shot off because I'm too slow, that's my own fault, not theirs. I'm sorry you're having a hard time participating, but to continue with the MTG analogy, demanding others bring less powerful decks to a tournament because you brought a starter deck isn't the way to go and will only get much deserved pushback. If you can't bring a stronger build/deck, then build yourself up until you can and come back later.
Again I agree with people who say the advanced and elite versions of events never should've been taken out. Let people choose the difficulty they want to play at and let the cards fall where they may.
With that said, I reject the premise that just because someone with a higher DPS plays on a lower difficulty it somehow means that person has bad intentions or is being a troll. I have the ability to play anything in this game on elite should I choose to do so. However there are times when I simply want something done as quickly as possible and don't want to deal with the headache that can be elite at times. Contrary to popular belief, people like myself who have the ability to play elite like to have a little mindless fun from time to time.
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If that's you keeping it short I'm afraid what you taking your time would look like
EDIT:Seriously though even when I don't agree with your arguments, you try to make solid argument rather then just resorting to name calling or other emotional responses.
I haven't been on the Forums as much as I'd like due to a Family Emergency and being stuck on my cousin's playstation.
Personally It all depends on how people build their ships, I usually try to recreate whatever build the shows versions uses, like a Romulan Warbird uses disruptors in the Shows, so mine would also use Disruptors, it does some damage but not enough to one-shot enemies, I say it's about an average build,
the main issue is power creep, personally I think nerfs are in order since the game is still somewhat challenging, TRIBBLE Vaadwaur, Benthans and Voth nonsense with them always blowing stuff up and spawn camping.
Delta Quadrant needs a remaster like the the B'Vat missions just get rid of the unnecessary content like patrols and move them somewhere else.
Anyways back to DPS, why is this game so DPS heavy, Why can't we solve missions with Diplomacy instead like Starfleet?
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