So a few things I'm going to point out here because I'm being accused now of saying something I didn't say. When I first came into this thread and went as hard as I did against certain people I was not in the right frame of mind mentally as I was dealing with some personal stuff outside of the game and forums including the death of a guildmate that alot of us had played with for years. So for those of you that I hammered into the core of the earth I apologize for that. I was not thinking with a clear head at the time. Does that excuse it, no it doesn't, but I owe that much of an explanation at least. This is why I didn't respond in here and very many threads for a brief while is I needed to clear my headspace. Since I've been able to get my headspace organized again, I've taken a stab at joining certain convos again.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think anyone should be telling anyone else for any reason, NOT to play until they have "more time" to devote to gaming. One cannot sit in judgment of someone else's life like that.
I'm not judging people and trying to beat people over the head and say they're not allowed to play until they can devote more time to gaming. What I said was "If someone is that hard pressed for time that they're having to rush and guarantee everything goes perfect to keep things from going squirrely, then imo they shouldn't be in the game to start with. They should wait until they have more time so they can slow down and enjoy the game, or utilize one of the other methods for getting things in game."
That is purely me giving an opinion. If they're pressed for time and they're having to rush through everything under the sun to the point if they so much as blink at the wrong time they're going to fail, then in my personal opinion they should wait and try again later when they're not so pressed for time. Wait until they are able to sit down and enjoy it better without having to rush through everything and can take their time, whether that time amounts to 30 minutes, an hour, or 12+ hours. The point of the game is to have fun, and if people are rushing and stressing themselves out, why are they playing?
@darkbladejk I have no intention of quoting your wall of text answers again, but your reply has distilled down to your opinion, as I see it. "git Gud" and if you can't play at MY level, don't play.
I am exceptrionally appalled at your inference that if you cannot devote multiple hours to the game that you are not worthy, and should not play AT ALL.
Neither of these things is what I said. See again the above. What I said was my personal opinion that if someone is pressed for time to the point they're having to rush through everything and can't enjoy it, they should wait until they are able to sit down and enjoy it better without having to rush themselves. The second thing I said is that all 5 members of that team have lives outside of the game and it's not fair for one person to expect the other 4 people to restructure the entirety of their playtime to accommodate them and vice versa. You alone are responsible for what you do while you play and how you choose to spend your playtime in game, be that 30 minutes, or multiple hours at the time. If you are going into a run, you need to first make sure you've done everything to ensure you have the best chance to participate on your end.
If the group is always running ahead of you, this tells me you're in a ship that's not fast enough to keep up with the group. If you're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty on whatever difficulty level you've chosen, that is not normal and the game itself as programmed by Cryptic is telling you that what you're doing isn't working and you need to change it. Like meimeitoo said, if you're constantly getting an AFK penalty at the chosen level, then you're not ready for that content in the state you're in now. That isn't me telling you that to be some kind of an elitist, that is something Cryptic themselves programmed into the game telling you that. I am not now nor have I ever been asserting people should have to do 50 zillion dps or whatever the record is now. What I am however saying is if you're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty and you're not able to keep up with the group on your chosen level, it's incumbent on you to either make changes and come back, or play on a lower level because the game itself is telling you that what you're doing is not working.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Now, Darkblade and other, who are understandably proud of the time and effort they've put into their builds, hold that the problem here is with the "noobs" who in their view are obstinately refusing to spend the time and money to become Elite.
This is not what I'm advocating and I have never claimed the problem is "noobs refusing to spend the time and money to become elite". see more below.
Meimetoo isn't entirely in the wrong here, either; even Darkblade has admitted to occasionally going into Normal TFOs in order to feel more powerful, not just because an Event requires it. Some Elite players are like that - they've developed those skills and want to show them off, like the shadetree mechanic who knows how to soup up street cars into racers, and insists on demonstrating that skill on the nearest four-lane surface street (had one of those wipe out in the rain about four blocks from my house a couple months ago, almost destroying the memorial set up by the family of the one before him). And like those shadetree mechanics, they don't seem to care that they're ruining things for other people. (On the plus side, at least Elite braggarts aren't putting anyone in any actual physical danger.)
What I have said is that people are responsible for their own ability/inability to play the game, others are not. If someone is having trouble competing at their chosen level, be it Normal, Advanced, or Elite, they alone are responsible for identifying problems and fixing them. If they should seek help in identifying and fixing issues with their performance/build, I don't care to help them, but all I can do is make recommendations, I can't do the fixing for them. As meimeitoo if you're constantly hitting AFK penalties on advanced level, then one of two things needs to happen, either you play on normal again, or you up your build and skills until you can play on advanced without issues. If people are getting rewards, then they're getting to participate. Neither myself or anyone on the team is responsible for them feeling like it went too fast as that is their subjective opinion. If a person is constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty and constantly arriving too late to shoot things, but continues to use that build/ship giving them the AFK penalty and that's too slow to keep up, the problem is them, not the rest of the team.
What I have also said is that sometimes I don't always go into elite TFOs even though I'm capable of playing them because I don't always want to worry about having the fail condition hanging over my head if I don't do everything perfectly. Sometimes I just want to blast things for the sake of blasting without having to worry about doing everything perfectly or failing. Other times I play on that lower difficulty because there isn't a higher version that exists for that particular content. An uber DPSer isn't doing anything wrong by playing on a lower difficulty, nor is the lower DPSer doing anything wrong by joining an elite. Like everyone else, I have my opinions as to when I believe people should/shouldn't be in certain types of content. So long as you're getting rewards and not getting hit with an AFK penalty, you're getting to play and you're getting to participate so what's the issue?
We've also seen multiple different parses by multiple different people across multiple different runs showing that in almost all cases what people are seeing is not the presence of an uber DPSer, but the combined might of their entire team. So they're blaming one particular group of people that aren't even present.
Alot of people, a lot of my friends no longer play due to what I call the warframe effect.
its not really the players fault, but being new to the game and doing tfos for the first time, with insanely geared players where you don't get to do much because the better players blow everything up is not a fun experience.
And why its called warframe experience, is because new warframe players simply cannot keep up with veteran players who can clear the entire mission before the player even gets there.
its mitigated some in sto with time and gearing. But also there is a legit skill ceiling for some people, or age/reflexes. And expecting them to "git gud" really doesn't fix anything.
Is there a fix cryptic could reasonably implement? Unless they wanna create a higher tier difficulty to challenge veterans? likely not. This is primarily a power creep issue from years of hawking lootcrate gear onto us.
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
Except this game is nothing like Warframe at all and the two games aren't even comparable. I've played Warframe since 2016 and it is absolutely NOTHING like STO. In Warframe you're limited by the frames and equipment you have unlocked, as well as the quality of your mods you have available. In Warframe me and little Timmy can have the same build on the same frame using the same equipment and mods, yet I'm going to do more damage because my mods have been upgraded where as Timmy's hasn't. I'm also older that Timmy, faster, and more experienced. Even if you gave me and Timmy the same quality of mods, as in upgrades, I'm still going to run circles around Timmy purely based on experience, that same would be true with STO. Warframe is also a MUCH faster paced game than STO has ever been and ever will be. Also in Warframe you have the option of doing missions solo should you choose. so you can still progress, just not as fast as running with the veteran players.
STO may have some missions that are a little more fast paced than others, but is nothing like Warframe at all. One thing they do have in common is you can run with people, or you can run solo. That's the only thing they have in common but they have that at least. In STO you have multiple ways to get marks and items from reputation. You can also obtain gear from story missions that they simply hand you. Oh you need a phaser, go do (mission), you need a polaron weapon then go over there, you want disruptor then go to that one, and so on. In STO there is an absurd amount of gear that you can get for free and it's far far easier to gear in STO than virtually any other MMO out there. If you're having trouble with TFOs, you can step back and grab some items from the story to boost you up without ever touching fleet gear.
As for people not considering something fun, again as I said, are you getting rewards and avoiding an AFK penalty? If the answer is yes then you're getting to play and you're getting to participate and things aren't getting insta vaped without you ever getting to fire a shot like some people have claimed. If you're getting rewards you're getting to shoot. So again I would have to ask, what's the problem other than people's subjective opinion of not liking it? Folks are entitled to their opinion that it wasn't fun and to feel like they didn't get to do enough. But simply having that opinion on its own doesn't mean there is an issue. If folks don't think they get to participate enough, then as I asked previously, what do you consider getting to participate enough? Specifically I'm asking you to quantify it. Is it a percentage of the teams damage you want to be able to reach? Is it a certain length of mission as in mission objectives you got to do? What do you consider as having been able to participate enough? Because I've seen a ton of people talk about not being able to participate even though they're getting rewards that say otherwise. And none of them have quantified this yet so an actual debate can be had, or advice given on how to get to that point. Lastly, we have multiple bits of parse data showing that the problem isn't uber DPS stepping into normal, but people thinking there is an uber DPS present because of the combined might of their team.
As for saying "leave the normal queues for regular/new players" that logic goes both ways. If you're going to say only X people are allowed to play normal modes, then by that same logic other people can say that only Y people are allowed to play advanced and elite. Then you're right back to the whole locking people out of content thing that people have said they hate.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,577Community Moderator
At this point it feels like its getting to be a bit circular. We just keep going around the same issue from different directions, occasionally pointing fingers, and... generally getting nowhere.
And... mimetoo AND Darkblade are both right, as jonsills pointed out. I think we can all agree that forcing a nerf on players like marik suggests is not going to solve the issue. The fact of the matter is that if you do get scaled down in STO, you STILL have full access to ALL of your capabilities. Its just the top end stats brought down, which frankly means nothing.
Lets use the first leveling ship as an example. The Georgiou class can be claimed right off the bat for a brand new character, but hey look! You have FULL access to ALL weapon slots. (Only ship that does this due to being the prototype for the system). So despite the fact you only have the Stats of a lv 5 Lieutenant character, you have the capability to mount the same amount of weapons and consoles as a Captain. So therefore your stats, while only that of a lv 5, are being augmented by sheer numbers of phaser arrays for all intents and purposes. You're overpowered even with a full set of Mk 2 Phaser arrays because you have MORE phaser arrays than normal. Its fun, but also overpowered for the level. This was later fixed with all the other T6 ships with slots that unlock over time to be equalvalent to level appropriate ships. Ultimately you're still a lv 5, with appropriate level gear, BUT... you have MORE of it. In a way this is the same issue with scaling down higher level players. Yea the stats are adjusted, just like when you match levels with a lower level team leader, BUT... you have MORE stuff, which by default makes you more powerful than said lower level team leader.
At this time there is no way to rectify THAT particular detail. Locking people out of BOff slots, weapon slots, and console slots will just result in more chaos for the servers to deal with (and we all know how well the servers are with the current loadout system, do we REALLY want to start messing with locking slots for scale down instances) and the forums lighting on fire so fast it will make the Fires of Delta Rising look like a campfire.
But you see... my suggestion where the chosen difficulty effectively nerfs high dps players is specifically intended to allow them to participate in normal content without it being trivial. They would get more difficult enemies to destroy, and it wouldn't prevent the normal players from participating. It would level the playing field, if you will. They could still play on normal if they want to obliterate everything in a blink, but they could HAVE that challenge in ANY mission or TFO.
So, I'm not sure what the objection is, really. Forgive my density, I'm just not seeing the downside.
Here's the question I'm going to pose to you. What if I want to be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction like Superman with the Cosmic Armor and I don't want a challenge? So long as I've acquired what I need to do so legitimately, what's the problem?
You keep saying that things "wouldn't prevent normal players from participating" yet that doesn't mean what you think it does. When you say someone isn't getting to participate, this tells me that something is either outright locking them out of getting to join the TFO and/or they're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty. If a person goes into ISA as an example and that person gets rewards from that TFO, they were able to participate or they wouldn't have seen rewards.
The objection in this instance is that you're telling so called elite players they're doing something wrong by simply existing on the same map as you and having more DPS than you. Because I'm able to put out more DPS than you are, I must be punished by having my DPS capped and not allowed to do the maximum damage I'm capable of generating because someone else doesn't like it, even though by your own admission you are getting rewards, and thus by extension are getting to participate.
My suggestion would change this. Elite players would simply set their difficulty to Elite and be able to participate in Normal difficulty content on a level field.
Clearly, I'm missing something, if this isn't desirable.
If your goal is simply all people can participate and get rewards, then congratulations we're already there. All levels of player can participate and receive rewards as is right now without having to change a thing. The only problem is some people don't think the current system as it sits right now is fun. which again begs the question, what standard of participation are we going by? What do you consider to have participated enough? If you're getting rewards and aren't getting an AFK penalty, what's the problem?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
In a way this is the same issue with scaling down higher level players. Yea the stats are adjusted, just like when you match levels with a lower level team leader, BUT... you have MORE stuff, which by default makes you more powerful than said lower level team leader.
But it's not really about "stuff". It's about how you use what you have. Cooldown reduction, ability actuation, piloting, mobility.. these are all far larger multipliers than "stuff" and are all areas that could merit a second look by a lot of players.
I remember when players used to celebrate self improvement, overcoming obstacles, and reaching new milestones.
I hesitate to post this, as I anticipate the usual circling of the wagons, but for three days now, it's been nearly impossible to participate in any queue missions at all. It's been going one of two ways.
Most common are the missions that are over before you can do anything. My Romulan was in one of the Borg missions (I don't recall what it's called) where the Tactical Cube appears near the end. He fired his Hyper Plasma torpedo, but both the Tac Cube AND the big portal thing were obliterated before it had fired all three torpedoes. Before that, whole spawns of enemies were being obliterated in less than a second.
Today, it was the Romulan minefield. I went around to the asteroids to free the freighters, but before I could free even one, that phase was over. By the time I warped to the three mines with the huge fleets of Romulans, they were wiped out before the animation of me warping in was over. I repaired one of the facilities, but before I could warp to the Falchion, it was already dead... took around 2 seconds. Just no way to enjoy missions like this. THREE DAYS this has been going on, but it's been an ongoing problem for years.
Of course, the opposite is also happening. Many of the more modern queue missions have been SO overtuned, in order to challenge people with ridiculous DPS, that more average players flat out CANNOT contribute. The Tzenkethi and Iconians are bad for this, but it still happens elsewhere too.
I actually placed support tickets on this issue years ago because the whales power players queuing normal mode public TFO killed spawns so quickly my casual player builds weren't able to do enough damage to the rapidly obliterated spawns to qualify for participation rewards. I believe they actually eliminated the minimum dps to solve that issue, because it hasn't been an issue for me in some time.
However, I can empathize with the frustration of simply not being able to "play" the TFO when a kitted power player is running through spawns and objectives at warp speed. Unfortunately, it's part of the STO landscape now because they certainly can't reduce, or remove benefits from players that have acquired the top kit and optimized their builds for advanced modes.
My best advice is to kit your ships and avatar with, at least, Blue Mark XV gear. This will allow you to survive the dps in a TFO with a power player, or do sufficient DPS that when a whale power player isn't in your TFO, you can still survive and, perhaps, carry other casual players.
I see a disconnect in the thread. part of the arguments are Elite players "invading" normal level content and wiping the floor with casual/lower end players, which I believe @annemarie30 is saying.
And I hear her, loud and clearly. And, throughout this thread, I have called Elite players invading lower Tier TFO's 'unsportsmanlike.' And I will stick to that.
Others are saying if you are a casual/low level player complaining about getting afk/wiped in Advanced/elite content, you need to improve. Both are valid comments.
Both are actually sides of the same coin. Playing content at a level you're clearly not ready for, is equally unsportsmanlike to your Team mates. But the latter is always a bit triggery, as it sounds like you're being forced/pressured into improving by others. And while sportsmanship is definitely a thing, I think improving yourself, to the point where you can comfortably participate at your chosen level, is primarily something you should do for yourself, as getting slaughtered all the time, or often incurring AFK-Penalties, is simply not fun. I recall, during Dilithium Rising, that I (temporarily) started playing patrols on Elite, to rake up XP (no, not at Japori). While I still rarely died, it was nonetheless a little too hard for comfort: getting three Feedback Pulses on you, in Elite, really does sting. My longwinded point being: it gets more fun when you play at your own level. And if you can't play comfortably at your own, chosen level, the logical inference is then that you seek to improve your own skill level/gear. Or you drop back to Advanced, like I did when I had leveled up to 65.
The second argument is simple enough. the game needs to parse your ability to perform at that level. If you can't you don't get to play. simple. You cannot reasonably expect to play in the majors when you are at best high school JV.
The opposite should hold too, then. Heavy weight boxers are not allowed to compete in a medium weight class. And I think that holds true universally, for almost all sports: once the class you belong to has been determined, you cannot compete either in a higher class, or a lower one, for that matter. Darkbladejk et al. have been defending the opposite, to which Annemarie has objected vehemently, and myself as well; namely that Elite players should be allowed in a Normal queue, and the rest of the team should just try and keep up, aka 'git gud.' Essentially arguing that the heavy weight boxer should be allowed to compete in a medium weight class, or lightweight class even. That position is entirely different from improving yourself, in order to play your current, self-chosen level of difficulty.
At this point it feels like its getting to be a bit circular. We just keep going around the same issue from different directions, occasionally pointing fingers, and... generally getting nowhere.
I agree; been feeling the same thing. Looks like old arguments are getting rehashed again (I am guilty of that myself too).
I honestly think that "elite" is just another label being thrown about almost indiscriminately in order to better enable a sense of outrage by those who stubbornly refuse to make any adjustments to their playstyle whatsoever.
"I got afk'd by a power playerwhaleuberdeepz elite player who was zipping about in a normal difficulty random TFO. I couldn't go anywhere because I was stuck in red alert"
"Do you have an Emergency Conn Hologram doff equipped?"
"No. What an outrageous suggestion! I will not make one single change! I've been playing this way since 2010. Nerf those dang elite players!"
"How do you know they were an elite player?"
"I call anybody doing better than me an elite player."
I'm not judging people and trying to beat people over the head and say they're not allowed to play until they can devote more time to gaming. What I said was "If someone is that hard pressed for time that they're having to rush and guarantee everything goes perfect to keep things from going squirrely, then imo they shouldn't be in the game to start with. They should wait until they have more time so they can slow down and enjoy the game, or utilize one of the other methods for getting things in game."
Do you not see the contradiction here? Go back over those statements. Go slowly. Read them as if someone else had written them and you have no idea what the thoughts behind those statements are.
If someone is having trouble competing at their chosen level, be it Normal, Advanced, or Elite, they alone are responsible for identifying problems and fixing them.
And what might that problem be on occasion? Let's take a look...
What if I want to be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction like Superman with the Cosmic Armor and I don't want a challenge?
It's quite difficult to compete at one's chosen level of Normal when someone else wants to "be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction".
One wonders if folks attempting to take the moral high ground here will ever put down their pencil and put a commensurate effort into trying to work around some of the issues they say they're experiencing.
I don't mind going back over ground we've covered. Sometimes a new point will come up.
I don't agree that "forcing" a nerf on players won't solve the issue. To begin with nothing would be FORCED on anyone, you would CHOOSE your level of difficulty. As I see it, to increase difficulty you have to either make enemies stronger (which might put them out of reach of many players) or you make the players weaker (which would only affect those who choose this option, AND would have other benefits, such as allowing players of different skill and difficulty levels to play together).
That's some rather dynamic on the fly stuff that I don't think is even POSSIBLE in STO. And honestly I don't even know HOW that can be done. The closest thing I can even think of to something like this is how FF14 handles someone like me, who has a lot of high level classes including a lv 90 Machinist, getting put into even the first dungeon in the game with people just starting out. It literally scales you back to at least the highest appropriate level, abilities and all, for that dungeon.
STO can't do that. It would require locking out abilities and weapon slots in space, and abilities on the ground. And based on what you're wanting to happen... ON DEMAND for ANY SELECETED LEVEL. Do you know how many data points that is? Either 65 levels worth x the number of ships in game, or 6 tiers x number of ships in game. And thats just for space ALONE. Its a database NIGHTMARE. And that's not even including any accumulated Endeavor perk points or leveled skill points! AND THEN we have to consider at what point do we establish WHAT tier you're "supposed to be" for what content as well? What level are you supposed to be to do Infected Space? What level are you supposed to be to do Counterpoint? What level are you supposed to be to do Starbase 1? What... need I go on?
Oh and while we're at it... how will that bork the Loadout System, which already is a Finicky system in game? It will probably bork it far beyond Gre'thor and into god knows how many underworlds across the galaxy!
Oh and lets not forget that some people may not be actually properly geared either, which is its own can of worms. Should we be nerfed to improperly geared level as well to not leave them out of feeling abused by properly equipped players? Where does it stop?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think anyone should be telling anyone else for any reason, NOT to play until they have "more time" to devote to gaming. One cannot sit in judgment of someone else's life like that. Perhaps that 30 minutes IS all the time they had allocated for gaming. Maybe that is due to a hectic schedule that doesn't have a lot of wiggle room. Or perhaps real life is just more interesting to them, and gaming not as important and therefore getting less time allocated to it. Whatever the circumstances or reasons, their gaming time is their gaming time, and no one should dictate to them when and how they spend it. So, let's try to be more understanding, ok? /soapbox
Fully agreed. If Annemarie says she only has 30 minutes of play time available, then I literally do not care whether someone else has people in their fleet who are either former/active military and/or police, or whatever, and can make more time for the game. Good for them; Annemarie, however, only has 30 minutes (again, she may have just been given an example, but that doesn't matter). It's not my place to tell anyone how much time they can afford to spend on the game. I fully sympathize with her not appreciating when Elite players stomp on her Normal level, and push her into an AFK-Penalty, as a result. And no, she normally doesn't get an AFK-Penalty, so she shouldn't have to get better, as she can play the content on her chosen difficulty level. Only time she cannot, is when players 2 levels higher than her, come in to ruin her fun. That's not cool.
EDIT: I thought I was over it, but I realize I'm still getting upset over this. And no, before anyone suggests it, I have never received an AFK-Penalty for not contributing enough (except for inadvertenly getting disconnected a few times over the years).
One wonders if folks attempting to take the moral high ground here will ever put down their pencil and put a commensurate effort into trying to work around some of the issues they say they're experiencing.
One could also wonder if higher performing players who are stepping down in difficulty can put some minimal effort in to dial back their performance just a tad as a courtesy to their fellow players.
No, I'm not going to deconstruct any of my builds at this time. I am a showcase for STO as to what can be achieved on a low budget with a little perseverance
and again, a Play my way or don't play comment. and again, why I will NEVER play TFOs. until your ilk realise you are the toxic elements in the game, nothing will improve
The toxic attitude is not coming from us, you are seeing negativity that is not there.
You are interpreting what we are trying to say incorrectly. We are not saying you have to play the game our way. We are saying if you played the tutorial and picked up the most basic gameplay mechanics and go into a TFO and do the bare minimum you won’t get hit with an AFK bar the very rare outliner cases.
If you are being hit by AFK time and time again and are blaming others players when they have done nothing wrong. Then you are being toxic and have a toxic attitude towards those players.
If you are doing less damage then someone on the ground with a pistol, while in your spaceship then the problem is not the other players.
All you have to do is 1/6 the damage of 1 hangar bay and if you are doing less than that you are doing something fundamentally wrong with your build. Something fundamentally wrong like manually turning auto fire off and then not firing your weapons. Blaming other players is not the right attitude and wont solve anything as the other players are not at fault.
The bar to avoid being hit by AFK is so low its near impossible to get lots and lots of AFK unless you are doing something wrong. Generally speaking getting hit by AFK a lot is not the fault of other players, its something the player that was hit by AFK is doing wrong. As was shown before in the data the uberDPSers are no the cause of the problem so please stop being toxic and blaming them.
Oh and lets not forget that some people may not be actually properly geared either, which is its own can of worms. Should we be nerfed to improperly geared level as well to not leave them out of feeling abused by properly equipped players? Where does it stop?
No one should be nerfed. Players should be allowed to stay as strong as they've become. Where they are strong, however, is the matter at hand. Should the Elite player be allowed to flex their strength in a Normal? That is the question.
But you see... my suggestion where the chosen difficulty effectively nerfs high dps players is specifically intended to allow them to participate in normal content without it being trivial. They would get more difficult enemies to destroy, and it wouldn't prevent the normal players from participating. It would level the playing field, if you will. They could still play on normal if they want to obliterate everything in a blink, but they could HAVE that challenge in ANY mission or TFO.
So, I'm not sure what the objection is, really. Forgive my density, I'm just not seeing the downside.
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
Event content generally only comes in Normal difficulty unfortunately, so higher performing players have no other option.
My suggestion would change this. Elite players would simply set their difficulty to Elite and be able to participate in Normal difficulty content on a level field.
Clearly, I'm missing something, if this isn't desirable.
One of the areas you might be missing is most DPS doesn't come from gear. The ratio is debatable but I would say gear only makes up 10 to 20% of DPS. Which has two problems with you idea. The first being how do you identify the high DPS players and then once you have done that, I can see no practical way that to implant a nerf that will bring that high DPS player down to normal difficulty. If I set Elite and join normal difficulty how would you nerf me down to the other players?
By the way we already have a form of this feature in game if I join a level 45 team I get nerfed down to level 45. You can set it so the max level is the team leaders level. This also applies to zones If I enter a level 40 player zone my level 65 toon gets nerfed down to level 40. To be honest it doesn't really have much impact.
Furthermore I am not even convinced the high DPS player is the problem as all the data is showing the high DPS player is not causing problems generally speaking and is even rising up the DPS of the other players.
One wonders if folks attempting to take the moral high ground here will ever put down their pencil and put a commensurate effort into trying to work around some of the issues they say they're experiencing.
One could also wonder if higher performing players who are stepping down in difficulty can put some minimal effort in to dial back their performance just a tad as a courtesy to their fellow players.
I tired that in the Breach event and posted about my results a fair few pages back. It was not that easy and removed all the fun from the TFO event runs. It was very hard work and none of the other players seemed to appreciated it. I didn't run across anyone in the entire event who preferred me to dial back. Worse dialling back didn't seem to benefit the team and removed all the fun for myself. I am not saying never ever dial back just very often its not helping.
Do you not see the contradiction here? Go back over those statements. Go slowly. Read them as if someone else had written them and you have no idea what the thoughts behind those statements are.
You're reading things into what I said that simply are not there. You should do as you advised me and and read back over what I said and you will notice there are two things being discussed there, overall gameplay, and a specific point of gameplay. If you only have a limited time to play and can't afford for a single thing to go wrong and are stressing yourself out about it, then perhaps you should step back until another time when that stress isn't hanging over your head, or do something else in game that's not so stressful. The game is supposed to be fun and if you're constantly stressing about it, then why are you playing it? If folks want to play in that super stressed out state then more power to them, personally I'm not going to do that.
Now when you go into team based content like TFOs, you are responsible for your ability to keep up with the group and avoid the AFK penalty. I can't make you run speed boosts to keep up with the team, and I can't make you run a cohesive build that will let you avoid the AFK penalty. Only you can do that. If you choose to run a big beefy ship like the D'Deridex that moves at the speed of smell and you get grouped with 4 pilot escorts that can move fasted flying in reverse than you can flying forwards and they get to everything before you and nuke it before you have a chance to fire a shot, that's a you problem. Those 4 pilot ships did nothing wrong. The only way you'll avoid this is to have every ship in the game move at the same speed regardless of size.
If someone is having trouble competing at their chosen level, be it Normal, Advanced, or Elite, they alone are responsible for identifying problems and fixing them.
And what might that problem be on occasion? Let's take a look...
What if I want to be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction like Superman with the Cosmic Armor and I don't want a challenge?
It's quite difficult to compete at one's chosen level of Normal when someone else wants to "be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction".
So I'm going to ask you this. You say people like me are the problem for wanting to vape everything. Yet have you ever ran a parser to see what's going on for yourself and gather evidence? I don't remember who's ran parsers in here and who hasn't, but even then the question is valid. If you haven't then it's purely your subjective opinion. I'm sure by law of probability there is going to be the occasional run where ultra high DPS people get grouped with lower DPS people. If you're going to allow for custom player builds instead of predefined classes with predefined builds, there is going to be some disparity in what kind of outputs people have, that's unavoidable.
Myself and others have posted several bits of parsing data to showcase that in almost all cases people aren't seeing ultra high DPSers in their run, but the combined might of their team. If you get 5 people each doing 20k DPS on average, that's a combined total of 100k DPS going out to mobs on normal mode. If they're able to spike their damage to 3x normal like myself and others can do for a time, that's a combined spike of 300k. Even if they can only double their output briefly, that's still a combined spike of 200k DPS. It shouldn't be needed to say that things are going to melt super fast under those conditions on normal mode especially. We can sit here and debate all day, but the actual numbers will tell us whether there is this massive wave of uber DPS trolling people or not. So far the numbers have shown that's not the case.
Otherwise this line of logic you're pushing assumes that ultra high DPS people simply existing on a map with someone else equates to maliciousness and I do not accept that. If someone is following someone around and deliberately trying to AFK people, then get the evidence of that to the GMs and let them handle it as that's not cool.
Fully agreed. If Annemarie says she only has 30 minutes of play time available, then I literally do not care whether someone else has people in their fleet who are either former/active military and/or police, or whatever, and can make more time for the game. Good for them; Annemarie, however, only has 30 minutes (again, she may have just been given an example, but that doesn't matter). It's not my place to tell anyone how much time they can afford to spend on the game. I fully sympathize with her not appreciating when Elite players stomp on her Normal level, and push her into an AFK-Penalty, as a result. And no, she normally doesn't get an AFK-Penalty, so she shouldn't have to get better, as she can play the content on her chosen difficulty level. Only time she cannot, is when players 2 levels higher than her, come in to ruin her fun. That's not cool.
EDIT: I thought I was over it, but I realize I'm still getting upset over this. And no, before anyone suggests it, I have never received an AFK-Penalty for not contributing enough (except for inadvertenly getting disconnected a few times over the years).
Now apply that logic you're applying to my guild to annemarie and the rest of the playerbase. I gave that information about my guild to illustrate the thing that people miss when they cite the "I only have a limited time to play" argument. They may only have 30 minutes to play in a day, but the other 4 people in that TFO have lives outside of the game as well. Why should those other 4 people have to restructure the entirety of their gameplay around the one person? Why should their 30 minutes be anymore important than the 30 minutes of another person? Again the sword of equality is one that cuts both ways.
If she doesn't normally get hit with an AFK penalty as you say (and I hope she doesn't) then she's getting to play and benefitting from it, so what's the problem? You're arguing about an issue that by your own admission doesn't exist and that almost never happens save in very very distinct circumstances.
We've also seen by parse data that it's not the uber DPS coming into normal modes people are seeing and even then out of all the parse data we've seen, not a single time was a person actually given an AFK. So people are getting to participate and they are getting to play the TFOs and get progress out of them, they just don't feel like they did enough even though the game says they did. They're allowed to feel what they feel, but their teammates are not responsible for their feelings. You're correct that she doesn't have to change anything on her builds, however there could be potential consequences for that. If her or anyone else flies a super slow ship but refuses to add any kind of speed boost to it, then a possible consequence is that they may lag behind the group and not get to blast things as much as the others. If that should happen, then that is a consequence of the choice they made not to add speed boosts. So long as people continue to complain about certain issues, but stubbornly dig their heels in and refuse to do anything to help themselves first, they will continue to have issues. Just like someone who needs a surgery to relieve some pain they're having, but stubbornly refuses to go get the surgery.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
If you want to obliterate everything by looking at it... you would STILL be able to do so, by setting your difficulty to Normal. This would be no different that queueing in a Normal TFO. You would still be taking that content away from everyone else there, though... and THAT is the problem.
You keep saying that I would be taking content away from everyone yet you don't explain how I or anyone else is doing that.
Are they being preventing from joining certain content? Is someone following them around deliberately trying to AFK them? Because what you're saying doesn't mean what you think it does. To say someone is having content taken away from them means they can't experience the content and can't participate in it. If you're able to step through the door and join the TFO, then you have access to the content. If you're getting rewards from it then not only do you have access to it, but you're able to participate in said content and benefit from it. So this idea that content is being stolen from people is absolute rubbish.
There's more to playing a game than rewards. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the rewards the game provides, I'm there to have FUN. If I get to take one shot, and then everything is gone... I'm not having any fun. Even if I get rewards from the mission, I've missed out on the FUN.
And this right here is the breakdown because the goal post has shifted. Before hand it was about people being able to participate in TFOs and not get hit with an AFK penalty forced on them by high DPS players. It was pointed out with parse data that in almost all cases no actual high DPS players are present and people are getting to play the TFOs and benefit from them aka participate. This is further backed up by many people admitting they weren't getting hit with an AFK penalty. So people were arguing about something that by their own admission rarely if ever happens. Once this was pointed out the goal post shifted to you don't feel like you got to participate enough even though the game says you did.
Why should others be responsible for your subjective idea of fun? This is why I've asked you several times to define what you consider to have participated enough so the point can be debated properly.
To be clear, I'm not blaming the DPS players for having high DPS. If anyone is to blame, it's the developers, for letting it get to this point in the first place.
Except you are though. You basically said in plain black and white above that I would be taking content away from people by existing on the same map as them. And this entire thread has been about wanting nerfs to people like myself or others because of your subjective opinion that you're not having fun. Again you're allowed to say you're not having fun, and your fun is not wrong. Likewise my fun isn't wrong either. It shifted from people not getting to participate to people's subjective opinions on what is fun or not.
My goal clearly hasn't been achieved. Others here have already pointed out that Elite players can't participate in certain content except on Normal difficulty, which is what causes the problem we're discussing... that it's not fun to play. As I say, my suggestion would allow Elite players to have the difficulty level they desire, while allowing them to play alongside people on lower difficulty, all without hindering anyone's fun. As I said before, I'm not seeing how this isn't desirable.
If your goal is to allow all people to play with each other as you try to claim, then that's already possible right now the way things are setup. Lower DPS people and higher DPS people can join groups and play together without any changes needing to be made. If I wanted to take my 150k DPS tank build into a run with a new guy/gal that just started the game today and teach them the ropes I can do that. There is also already a scaling system in place for story modes for me to match their level that will scale me down to the highest available stats for their level while still affording me an advantage of having played longer. So if your goal is really to have all people be able to play together then congratulations you're already there.
Yet by virtue of the rest of your post that doesn't seem to be what you want. You say that your solution would "level the playing field without hindering anyone's fun", but ignore the fact that it requires my fun of being able to do higher DPS be restricted in favor of your fun. I offered to sit down with you and help you move some things around in your build to help you get to targets faster and be able to get more shots off so you can have that fun. I offered to hand you a full set of mk xv ultra rare gear, including putting you into a different cstore ship with a coupon I have if that's what it took. Instead of accepting that offer, you declined and have continued to insist that my fun and the fun of other people like me be restricted in favor of yours. Yet somehow you can't see why you're getting pushback? Respectfully dude I have to question if you really don't see it or if you're just deliberately ignoring it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
No, I'm not going to deconstruct any of my builds at this time. I am a showcase for STO as to what can be achieved on a low budget with a little perseverance
Interesting. Why would you think you need to deconstruct your build? According to you, build has very little to do with performance.
But it's not really about "stuff". It's about how you use what you have. Cooldown reduction, ability actuation, piloting, mobility.. these are all far larger multipliers than "stuff" and are all areas that could merit a second look by a lot of players.
So if I am understanding you correctly, it is difficult to impossible for you to dial back or delay your activation of skills, piloting and such? If so, not sure that is all that believable.
I tired that in the Breach event and posted about my results a fair few pages back. It was not that easy and removed all the fun from the TFO event runs. It was very hard work and none of the other players seemed to appreciated it. I didn't run across anyone in the entire event who preferred me to dial back. Worse dialling back didn't seem to benefit the team and removed all the fun for myself. I am not saying never ever dial back just very often its not helping.
I disagree that dialing back is all that difficult to do, especially since as noted above.
That’s what I thought till I tried it throughout the Breach Event and it turned out to be way harder than I expected. I had to constantly fight muscle memory, instinct and to actively think not to act on knowledge. After 10+ years of playing I have habits that I have to actively fight against. Breaking habits and maintaining a high level of concentration throughout a TFO is hard work, harder than playing normally and removed all the fun at least for me. At times my concentration slipped and I went back high DPS mode.
Just to echo protoneous I found when testing in the Breach Event my DPS had very little to do with build. I would say between 80% to 90% of DPS is player knowledge and player skill not gear. To give an example I was proactive and was reacting to the pattern the subcores spawn in and positioned myself ready with skills ready. While the other players where waiting for the subcore to appear then fly over often with random skills triggering with no thought about what's coming up next. The other players didn't seem to like it if I hold back and waited for them to fly over.
Which leads me onto why it’s not that simple because you are more likely to upset other players by holding back. When I was holding back in the Breach Event from what I could tell not one single player appreciated me holding back. On the other hand, you risk getting comments like “why are you holding back” “why are you not contributing” ”why are you making the TFO take longer” “I am going to report you for not taking part” a long while back I was even accused of being AFK and the player said they would report me to a DM.
To be honest the impression I got was most player well into the 80%+ figure just did not care either way if you hold back or went full DPS. If you did hold back you where more likely to upset players then find one that a appreciated it.
One wonders if folks attempting to take the moral high ground here will ever put down their pencil and put a commensurate effort into trying to work around some of the issues they say they're experiencing.
One could also wonder if higher performing players who are stepping down in difficulty can put some minimal effort in to dial back their performance just a tad as a courtesy to their fellow players.
I tired that in the Breach event and posted about my results a fair few pages back. It was not that easy and removed all the fun from the TFO event runs. It was very hard work and none of the other players seemed to appreciated it. I didn't run across anyone in the entire event who preferred me to dial back. Worse dialling back didn't seem to benefit the team and removed all the fun for myself. I am not saying never ever dial back just very often its not helping.
Yes, TFO events are indeed a special case, and one hopes that soon they will be made available at a variety of difficulty levels (I sympathize with the devs having to hear complaints from people who select the wrong difficulty, but that's hardly Cryptic's fault, now is it?). However, what was being discussed earlier was the case where an Elite player chooses to queue for Normal so that they can "blast everything just by looking at it", as DB so colorfully put it, and denies mere Normal peasants any opportunity to learn - or even participate meaningfully.
Oh, and just so you know, Darkblade - it's become painfully clear that discussing this with you is pointless, so I shan't any further. I will just try to ask you to understand how telling someone not to even try running TFOs on Normal until they have more time to dedicate to "git gud" is indeed telling them how to play, and what they're not "allowed" to do.
Do you not see the contradiction here? Go back over those statements. Go slowly. Read them as if someone else had written them and you have no idea what the thoughts behind those statements are.
You're reading things into what I said that simply are not there. You should do as you advised me and and read back over what I said and you will notice there are two things being discussed there, overall gameplay, and a specific point of gameplay. If you only have a limited time to play and can't afford for a single thing to go wrong and are stressing yourself out about it, then perhaps you should step back until another time when that stress isn't hanging over your head, or do something else in game that's not so stressful. The game is supposed to be fun and if you're constantly stressing about it, then why are you playing it? If folks want to play in that super stressed out state then more power to them, personally I'm not going to do that.
Now when you go into team based content like TFOs, you are responsible for your ability to keep up with the group and avoid the AFK penalty. I can't make you run speed boosts to keep up with the team, and I can't make you run a cohesive build that will let you avoid the AFK penalty. Only you can do that. If you choose to run a big beefy ship like the D'Deridex that moves at the speed of smell and you get grouped with 4 pilot escorts that can move fasted flying in reverse than you can flying forwards and they get to everything before you and nuke it before you have a chance to fire a shot, that's a you problem. Those 4 pilot ships did nothing wrong. The only way you'll avoid this is to have every ship in the game move at the same speed regardless of size.
If someone is having trouble competing at their chosen level, be it Normal, Advanced, or Elite, they alone are responsible for identifying problems and fixing them.
And what might that problem be on occasion? Let's take a look...
What if I want to be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction like Superman with the Cosmic Armor and I don't want a challenge?
It's quite difficult to compete at one's chosen level of Normal when someone else wants to "be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction".
So I'm going to ask you this. You say people like me are the problem for wanting to vape everything. Yet have you ever ran a parser to see what's going on for yourself and gather evidence? I don't remember who's ran parsers in here and who hasn't, but even then the question is valid. If you haven't then it's purely your subjective opinion. I'm sure by law of probability there is going to be the occasional run where ultra high DPS people get grouped with lower DPS people. If you're going to allow for custom player builds instead of predefined classes with predefined builds, there is going to be some disparity in what kind of outputs people have, that's unavoidable.
Myself and others have posted several bits of parsing data to showcase that in almost all cases people aren't seeing ultra high DPSers in their run, but the combined might of their team. If you get 5 people each doing 20k DPS on average, that's a combined total of 100k DPS going out to mobs on normal mode. If they're able to spike their damage to 3x normal like myself and others can do for a time, that's a combined spike of 300k. Even if they can only double their output briefly, that's still a combined spike of 200k DPS. It shouldn't be needed to say that things are going to melt super fast under those conditions on normal mode especially. We can sit here and debate all day, but the actual numbers will tell us whether there is this massive wave of uber DPS trolling people or not. So far the numbers have shown that's not the case.
Otherwise this line of logic you're pushing assumes that ultra high DPS people simply existing on a map with someone else equates to maliciousness and I do not accept that. If someone is following someone around and deliberately trying to AFK people, then get the evidence of that to the GMs and let them handle it as that's not cool.
Fully agreed. If Annemarie says she only has 30 minutes of play time available, then I literally do not care whether someone else has people in their fleet who are either former/active military and/or police, or whatever, and can make more time for the game. Good for them; Annemarie, however, only has 30 minutes (again, she may have just been given an example, but that doesn't matter). It's not my place to tell anyone how much time they can afford to spend on the game. I fully sympathize with her not appreciating when Elite players stomp on her Normal level, and push her into an AFK-Penalty, as a result. And no, she normally doesn't get an AFK-Penalty, so she shouldn't have to get better, as she can play the content on her chosen difficulty level. Only time she cannot, is when players 2 levels higher than her, come in to ruin her fun. That's not cool.
EDIT: I thought I was over it, but I realize I'm still getting upset over this. And no, before anyone suggests it, I have never received an AFK-Penalty for not contributing enough (except for inadvertenly getting disconnected a few times over the years).
Now apply that logic you're applying to my guild to annemarie and the rest of the playerbase. I gave that information about my guild to illustrate the thing that people miss when they cite the "I only have a limited time to play" argument. They may only have 30 minutes to play in a day, but the other 4 people in that TFO have lives outside of the game as well.
Now you're just repeating your argument: "Others in my guild have found the time, therefore so can she." I will not go there. If Annemarie says she has only 30 minutes available per day, then I will simply take that at face value. Doing anything else is presumptuous.
If she doesn't normally get hit with an AFK penalty as you say (and I hope she doesn't) then she's getting to play and benefitting from it, so what's the problem?
The problem is the apparent Elite interlopers at Normal, causing her to get an AFK-Penalty (her words).
N.B. I'm not entirely convinced this is happening a lot, btw. I've never had it occur in my Advanced runs (I'm sure it *did* happen, but not enough for me to really notice, or affect me adversely). Looks to be more of an issue with Normal. And that makes sense, as Normal has no underlimit, as it were (housing utter newbies to ppl say, doing 20k). Still, she says it occurs, so I see no reason to disbelieve her.
We've also seen by parse data that it's not the uber DPS coming into normal modes people are seeing and even then out of all the parse data we've seen, not a single time was a person actually given an AFK.
How can you tell, from the parse data, no one was given an AFK-Penalty?
So long as people continue to complain about certain issues, but stubbornly dig their heels in and refuse to do anything to help themselves first, they will continue to have issues. Just like someone who needs a surgery to relieve some pain they're having, but stubbornly refuses to go get the surgery.
A more apt analogy would be to take a Junior Leage Rugby team: no one's getting injured at their own level, until a 'ringer' on the other team steps in, and turns out to be a Major League, professional player: then, and only then, do the players in JL get injured.
I will say this, it is a fair point that toning down your performance due to being forced into Normal difficulty content is not ideal either. This is why one of the suggestions I proposed would be to have event content come in every difficulty level so players like you could play at the difficulty level they want without having to adjust their play style.
Agreed, btw. Can't fault an Elite player for entering a lower Tier TFO, when said TFO is simply not available at Elite. That would be a good place to start for Cryptic.
Comments
Now getting into a few choice bits.
I'm not judging people and trying to beat people over the head and say they're not allowed to play until they can devote more time to gaming. What I said was "If someone is that hard pressed for time that they're having to rush and guarantee everything goes perfect to keep things from going squirrely, then imo they shouldn't be in the game to start with. They should wait until they have more time so they can slow down and enjoy the game, or utilize one of the other methods for getting things in game."
That is purely me giving an opinion. If they're pressed for time and they're having to rush through everything under the sun to the point if they so much as blink at the wrong time they're going to fail, then in my personal opinion they should wait and try again later when they're not so pressed for time. Wait until they are able to sit down and enjoy it better without having to rush through everything and can take their time, whether that time amounts to 30 minutes, an hour, or 12+ hours. The point of the game is to have fun, and if people are rushing and stressing themselves out, why are they playing?
Neither of these things is what I said. See again the above. What I said was my personal opinion that if someone is pressed for time to the point they're having to rush through everything and can't enjoy it, they should wait until they are able to sit down and enjoy it better without having to rush themselves. The second thing I said is that all 5 members of that team have lives outside of the game and it's not fair for one person to expect the other 4 people to restructure the entirety of their playtime to accommodate them and vice versa. You alone are responsible for what you do while you play and how you choose to spend your playtime in game, be that 30 minutes, or multiple hours at the time. If you are going into a run, you need to first make sure you've done everything to ensure you have the best chance to participate on your end.
If the group is always running ahead of you, this tells me you're in a ship that's not fast enough to keep up with the group. If you're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty on whatever difficulty level you've chosen, that is not normal and the game itself as programmed by Cryptic is telling you that what you're doing isn't working and you need to change it. Like meimeitoo said, if you're constantly getting an AFK penalty at the chosen level, then you're not ready for that content in the state you're in now. That isn't me telling you that to be some kind of an elitist, that is something Cryptic themselves programmed into the game telling you that. I am not now nor have I ever been asserting people should have to do 50 zillion dps or whatever the record is now. What I am however saying is if you're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty and you're not able to keep up with the group on your chosen level, it's incumbent on you to either make changes and come back, or play on a lower level because the game itself is telling you that what you're doing is not working.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
This is not what I'm advocating and I have never claimed the problem is "noobs refusing to spend the time and money to become elite". see more below.
What I have said is that people are responsible for their own ability/inability to play the game, others are not. If someone is having trouble competing at their chosen level, be it Normal, Advanced, or Elite, they alone are responsible for identifying problems and fixing them. If they should seek help in identifying and fixing issues with their performance/build, I don't care to help them, but all I can do is make recommendations, I can't do the fixing for them. As meimeitoo if you're constantly hitting AFK penalties on advanced level, then one of two things needs to happen, either you play on normal again, or you up your build and skills until you can play on advanced without issues. If people are getting rewards, then they're getting to participate. Neither myself or anyone on the team is responsible for them feeling like it went too fast as that is their subjective opinion. If a person is constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty and constantly arriving too late to shoot things, but continues to use that build/ship giving them the AFK penalty and that's too slow to keep up, the problem is them, not the rest of the team.
What I have also said is that sometimes I don't always go into elite TFOs even though I'm capable of playing them because I don't always want to worry about having the fail condition hanging over my head if I don't do everything perfectly. Sometimes I just want to blast things for the sake of blasting without having to worry about doing everything perfectly or failing. Other times I play on that lower difficulty because there isn't a higher version that exists for that particular content. An uber DPSer isn't doing anything wrong by playing on a lower difficulty, nor is the lower DPSer doing anything wrong by joining an elite. Like everyone else, I have my opinions as to when I believe people should/shouldn't be in certain types of content. So long as you're getting rewards and not getting hit with an AFK penalty, you're getting to play and you're getting to participate so what's the issue?
We've also seen multiple different parses by multiple different people across multiple different runs showing that in almost all cases what people are seeing is not the presence of an uber DPSer, but the combined might of their entire team. So they're blaming one particular group of people that aren't even present.
Except this game is nothing like Warframe at all and the two games aren't even comparable. I've played Warframe since 2016 and it is absolutely NOTHING like STO. In Warframe you're limited by the frames and equipment you have unlocked, as well as the quality of your mods you have available. In Warframe me and little Timmy can have the same build on the same frame using the same equipment and mods, yet I'm going to do more damage because my mods have been upgraded where as Timmy's hasn't. I'm also older that Timmy, faster, and more experienced. Even if you gave me and Timmy the same quality of mods, as in upgrades, I'm still going to run circles around Timmy purely based on experience, that same would be true with STO. Warframe is also a MUCH faster paced game than STO has ever been and ever will be. Also in Warframe you have the option of doing missions solo should you choose. so you can still progress, just not as fast as running with the veteran players.
STO may have some missions that are a little more fast paced than others, but is nothing like Warframe at all. One thing they do have in common is you can run with people, or you can run solo. That's the only thing they have in common but they have that at least. In STO you have multiple ways to get marks and items from reputation. You can also obtain gear from story missions that they simply hand you. Oh you need a phaser, go do (mission), you need a polaron weapon then go over there, you want disruptor then go to that one, and so on. In STO there is an absurd amount of gear that you can get for free and it's far far easier to gear in STO than virtually any other MMO out there. If you're having trouble with TFOs, you can step back and grab some items from the story to boost you up without ever touching fleet gear.
As for people not considering something fun, again as I said, are you getting rewards and avoiding an AFK penalty? If the answer is yes then you're getting to play and you're getting to participate and things aren't getting insta vaped without you ever getting to fire a shot like some people have claimed. If you're getting rewards you're getting to shoot. So again I would have to ask, what's the problem other than people's subjective opinion of not liking it? Folks are entitled to their opinion that it wasn't fun and to feel like they didn't get to do enough. But simply having that opinion on its own doesn't mean there is an issue. If folks don't think they get to participate enough, then as I asked previously, what do you consider getting to participate enough? Specifically I'm asking you to quantify it. Is it a percentage of the teams damage you want to be able to reach? Is it a certain length of mission as in mission objectives you got to do? What do you consider as having been able to participate enough? Because I've seen a ton of people talk about not being able to participate even though they're getting rewards that say otherwise. And none of them have quantified this yet so an actual debate can be had, or advice given on how to get to that point. Lastly, we have multiple bits of parse data showing that the problem isn't uber DPS stepping into normal, but people thinking there is an uber DPS present because of the combined might of their team.
As for saying "leave the normal queues for regular/new players" that logic goes both ways. If you're going to say only X people are allowed to play normal modes, then by that same logic other people can say that only Y people are allowed to play advanced and elite. Then you're right back to the whole locking people out of content thing that people have said they hate.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
And... mimetoo AND Darkblade are both right, as jonsills pointed out. I think we can all agree that forcing a nerf on players like marik suggests is not going to solve the issue. The fact of the matter is that if you do get scaled down in STO, you STILL have full access to ALL of your capabilities. Its just the top end stats brought down, which frankly means nothing.
Lets use the first leveling ship as an example. The Georgiou class can be claimed right off the bat for a brand new character, but hey look! You have FULL access to ALL weapon slots. (Only ship that does this due to being the prototype for the system). So despite the fact you only have the Stats of a lv 5 Lieutenant character, you have the capability to mount the same amount of weapons and consoles as a Captain. So therefore your stats, while only that of a lv 5, are being augmented by sheer numbers of phaser arrays for all intents and purposes. You're overpowered even with a full set of Mk 2 Phaser arrays because you have MORE phaser arrays than normal. Its fun, but also overpowered for the level. This was later fixed with all the other T6 ships with slots that unlock over time to be equalvalent to level appropriate ships. Ultimately you're still a lv 5, with appropriate level gear, BUT... you have MORE of it. In a way this is the same issue with scaling down higher level players. Yea the stats are adjusted, just like when you match levels with a lower level team leader, BUT... you have MORE stuff, which by default makes you more powerful than said lower level team leader.
At this time there is no way to rectify THAT particular detail. Locking people out of BOff slots, weapon slots, and console slots will just result in more chaos for the servers to deal with (and we all know how well the servers are with the current loadout system, do we REALLY want to start messing with locking slots for scale down instances) and the forums lighting on fire so fast it will make the Fires of Delta Rising look like a campfire.
You keep saying that things "wouldn't prevent normal players from participating" yet that doesn't mean what you think it does. When you say someone isn't getting to participate, this tells me that something is either outright locking them out of getting to join the TFO and/or they're constantly getting hit with an AFK penalty. If a person goes into ISA as an example and that person gets rewards from that TFO, they were able to participate or they wouldn't have seen rewards.
The objection in this instance is that you're telling so called elite players they're doing something wrong by simply existing on the same map as you and having more DPS than you. Because I'm able to put out more DPS than you are, I must be punished by having my DPS capped and not allowed to do the maximum damage I'm capable of generating because someone else doesn't like it, even though by your own admission you are getting rewards, and thus by extension are getting to participate.
If your goal is simply all people can participate and get rewards, then congratulations we're already there. All levels of player can participate and receive rewards as is right now without having to change a thing. The only problem is some people don't think the current system as it sits right now is fun. which again begs the question, what standard of participation are we going by? What do you consider to have participated enough? If you're getting rewards and aren't getting an AFK penalty, what's the problem?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
But it's not really about "stuff". It's about how you use what you have. Cooldown reduction, ability actuation, piloting, mobility.. these are all far larger multipliers than "stuff" and are all areas that could merit a second look by a lot of players.
I remember when players used to celebrate self improvement, overcoming obstacles, and reaching new milestones.
I actually placed support tickets on this issue years ago because the whales power players queuing normal mode public TFO killed spawns so quickly my casual player builds weren't able to do enough damage to the rapidly obliterated spawns to qualify for participation rewards. I believe they actually eliminated the minimum dps to solve that issue, because it hasn't been an issue for me in some time.
However, I can empathize with the frustration of simply not being able to "play" the TFO when a kitted power player is running through spawns and objectives at warp speed. Unfortunately, it's part of the STO landscape now because they certainly can't reduce, or remove benefits from players that have acquired the top kit and optimized their builds for advanced modes.
My best advice is to kit your ships and avatar with, at least, Blue Mark XV gear. This will allow you to survive the dps in a TFO with a power player, or do sufficient DPS that when a whale power player isn't in your TFO, you can still survive and, perhaps, carry other casual players.
Good luck and I hope you find your peace.
And I hear her, loud and clearly. And, throughout this thread, I have called Elite players invading lower Tier TFO's 'unsportsmanlike.' And I will stick to that.
Both are actually sides of the same coin. Playing content at a level you're clearly not ready for, is equally unsportsmanlike to your Team mates. But the latter is always a bit triggery, as it sounds like you're being forced/pressured into improving by others. And while sportsmanship is definitely a thing, I think improving yourself, to the point where you can comfortably participate at your chosen level, is primarily something you should do for yourself, as getting slaughtered all the time, or often incurring AFK-Penalties, is simply not fun. I recall, during Dilithium Rising, that I (temporarily) started playing patrols on Elite, to rake up XP (no, not at Japori). While I still rarely died, it was nonetheless a little too hard for comfort: getting three Feedback Pulses on you, in Elite, really does sting. My longwinded point being: it gets more fun when you play at your own level. And if you can't play comfortably at your own, chosen level, the logical inference is then that you seek to improve your own skill level/gear. Or you drop back to Advanced, like I did when I had leveled up to 65.
The opposite should hold too, then. Heavy weight boxers are not allowed to compete in a medium weight class. And I think that holds true universally, for almost all sports: once the class you belong to has been determined, you cannot compete either in a higher class, or a lower one, for that matter. Darkbladejk et al. have been defending the opposite, to which Annemarie has objected vehemently, and myself as well; namely that Elite players should be allowed in a Normal queue, and the rest of the team should just try and keep up, aka 'git gud.' Essentially arguing that the heavy weight boxer should be allowed to compete in a medium weight class, or lightweight class even. That position is entirely different from improving yourself, in order to play your current, self-chosen level of difficulty.
I agree; been feeling the same thing. Looks like old arguments are getting rehashed again (I am guilty of that myself too).
"I got afk'd by a power player whale uberdeepz elite player who was zipping about in a normal difficulty random TFO. I couldn't go anywhere because I was stuck in red alert"
"Do you have an Emergency Conn Hologram doff equipped?"
"No. What an outrageous suggestion! I will not make one single change! I've been playing this way since 2010. Nerf those dang elite players!"
"How do you know they were an elite player?"
"I call anybody doing better than me an elite player."
And what might that problem be on occasion? Let's take a look...
It's quite difficult to compete at one's chosen level of Normal when someone else wants to "be able to obliterate everything by just glaring in that direction".
That's some rather dynamic on the fly stuff that I don't think is even POSSIBLE in STO. And honestly I don't even know HOW that can be done. The closest thing I can even think of to something like this is how FF14 handles someone like me, who has a lot of high level classes including a lv 90 Machinist, getting put into even the first dungeon in the game with people just starting out. It literally scales you back to at least the highest appropriate level, abilities and all, for that dungeon.
STO can't do that. It would require locking out abilities and weapon slots in space, and abilities on the ground. And based on what you're wanting to happen... ON DEMAND for ANY SELECETED LEVEL. Do you know how many data points that is? Either 65 levels worth x the number of ships in game, or 6 tiers x number of ships in game. And thats just for space ALONE. Its a database NIGHTMARE. And that's not even including any accumulated Endeavor perk points or leveled skill points! AND THEN we have to consider at what point do we establish WHAT tier you're "supposed to be" for what content as well? What level are you supposed to be to do Infected Space? What level are you supposed to be to do Counterpoint? What level are you supposed to be to do Starbase 1? What... need I go on?
Oh and while we're at it... how will that bork the Loadout System, which already is a Finicky system in game? It will probably bork it far beyond Gre'thor and into god knows how many underworlds across the galaxy!
Oh and lets not forget that some people may not be actually properly geared either, which is its own can of worms. Should we be nerfed to improperly geared level as well to not leave them out of feeling abused by properly equipped players? Where does it stop?
Fully agreed. If Annemarie says she only has 30 minutes of play time available, then I literally do not care whether someone else has people in their fleet who are either former/active military and/or police, or whatever, and can make more time for the game. Good for them; Annemarie, however, only has 30 minutes (again, she may have just been given an example, but that doesn't matter). It's not my place to tell anyone how much time they can afford to spend on the game. I fully sympathize with her not appreciating when Elite players stomp on her Normal level, and push her into an AFK-Penalty, as a result. And no, she normally doesn't get an AFK-Penalty, so she shouldn't have to get better, as she can play the content on her chosen difficulty level. Only time she cannot, is when players 2 levels higher than her, come in to ruin her fun. That's not cool.
EDIT: I thought I was over it, but I realize I'm still getting upset over this. And no, before anyone suggests it, I have never received an AFK-Penalty for not contributing enough (except for inadvertenly getting disconnected a few times over the years).
No, I'm not going to deconstruct any of my builds at this time. I am a showcase for STO as to what can be achieved on a low budget with a little perseverance
You are interpreting what we are trying to say incorrectly. We are not saying you have to play the game our way. We are saying if you played the tutorial and picked up the most basic gameplay mechanics and go into a TFO and do the bare minimum you won’t get hit with an AFK bar the very rare outliner cases.
If you are being hit by AFK time and time again and are blaming others players when they have done nothing wrong. Then you are being toxic and have a toxic attitude towards those players.
If you are doing less damage then someone on the ground with a pistol, while in your spaceship then the problem is not the other players.
All you have to do is 1/6 the damage of 1 hangar bay and if you are doing less than that you are doing something fundamentally wrong with your build. Something fundamentally wrong like manually turning auto fire off and then not firing your weapons. Blaming other players is not the right attitude and wont solve anything as the other players are not at fault.
The bar to avoid being hit by AFK is so low its near impossible to get lots and lots of AFK unless you are doing something wrong. Generally speaking getting hit by AFK a lot is not the fault of other players, its something the player that was hit by AFK is doing wrong. As was shown before in the data the uberDPSers are no the cause of the problem so please stop being toxic and blaming them.
No one should be nerfed. Players should be allowed to stay as strong as they've become. Where they are strong, however, is the matter at hand. Should the Elite player be allowed to flex their strength in a Normal? That is the question.
By the way we already have a form of this feature in game if I join a level 45 team I get nerfed down to level 45. You can set it so the max level is the team leaders level. This also applies to zones If I enter a level 40 player zone my level 65 toon gets nerfed down to level 40. To be honest it doesn't really have much impact.
Furthermore I am not even convinced the high DPS player is the problem as all the data is showing the high DPS player is not causing problems generally speaking and is even rising up the DPS of the other players.
Now when you go into team based content like TFOs, you are responsible for your ability to keep up with the group and avoid the AFK penalty. I can't make you run speed boosts to keep up with the team, and I can't make you run a cohesive build that will let you avoid the AFK penalty. Only you can do that. If you choose to run a big beefy ship like the D'Deridex that moves at the speed of smell and you get grouped with 4 pilot escorts that can move fasted flying in reverse than you can flying forwards and they get to everything before you and nuke it before you have a chance to fire a shot, that's a you problem. Those 4 pilot ships did nothing wrong. The only way you'll avoid this is to have every ship in the game move at the same speed regardless of size.
So I'm going to ask you this. You say people like me are the problem for wanting to vape everything. Yet have you ever ran a parser to see what's going on for yourself and gather evidence? I don't remember who's ran parsers in here and who hasn't, but even then the question is valid. If you haven't then it's purely your subjective opinion. I'm sure by law of probability there is going to be the occasional run where ultra high DPS people get grouped with lower DPS people. If you're going to allow for custom player builds instead of predefined classes with predefined builds, there is going to be some disparity in what kind of outputs people have, that's unavoidable.
Myself and others have posted several bits of parsing data to showcase that in almost all cases people aren't seeing ultra high DPSers in their run, but the combined might of their team. If you get 5 people each doing 20k DPS on average, that's a combined total of 100k DPS going out to mobs on normal mode. If they're able to spike their damage to 3x normal like myself and others can do for a time, that's a combined spike of 300k. Even if they can only double their output briefly, that's still a combined spike of 200k DPS. It shouldn't be needed to say that things are going to melt super fast under those conditions on normal mode especially. We can sit here and debate all day, but the actual numbers will tell us whether there is this massive wave of uber DPS trolling people or not. So far the numbers have shown that's not the case.
Otherwise this line of logic you're pushing assumes that ultra high DPS people simply existing on a map with someone else equates to maliciousness and I do not accept that. If someone is following someone around and deliberately trying to AFK people, then get the evidence of that to the GMs and let them handle it as that's not cool.
Now apply that logic you're applying to my guild to annemarie and the rest of the playerbase. I gave that information about my guild to illustrate the thing that people miss when they cite the "I only have a limited time to play" argument. They may only have 30 minutes to play in a day, but the other 4 people in that TFO have lives outside of the game as well. Why should those other 4 people have to restructure the entirety of their gameplay around the one person? Why should their 30 minutes be anymore important than the 30 minutes of another person? Again the sword of equality is one that cuts both ways.
If she doesn't normally get hit with an AFK penalty as you say (and I hope she doesn't) then she's getting to play and benefitting from it, so what's the problem? You're arguing about an issue that by your own admission doesn't exist and that almost never happens save in very very distinct circumstances.
We've also seen by parse data that it's not the uber DPS coming into normal modes people are seeing and even then out of all the parse data we've seen, not a single time was a person actually given an AFK. So people are getting to participate and they are getting to play the TFOs and get progress out of them, they just don't feel like they did enough even though the game says they did. They're allowed to feel what they feel, but their teammates are not responsible for their feelings. You're correct that she doesn't have to change anything on her builds, however there could be potential consequences for that. If her or anyone else flies a super slow ship but refuses to add any kind of speed boost to it, then a possible consequence is that they may lag behind the group and not get to blast things as much as the others. If that should happen, then that is a consequence of the choice they made not to add speed boosts. So long as people continue to complain about certain issues, but stubbornly dig their heels in and refuse to do anything to help themselves first, they will continue to have issues. Just like someone who needs a surgery to relieve some pain they're having, but stubbornly refuses to go get the surgery.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Are they being preventing from joining certain content? Is someone following them around deliberately trying to AFK them? Because what you're saying doesn't mean what you think it does. To say someone is having content taken away from them means they can't experience the content and can't participate in it. If you're able to step through the door and join the TFO, then you have access to the content. If you're getting rewards from it then not only do you have access to it, but you're able to participate in said content and benefit from it. So this idea that content is being stolen from people is absolute rubbish.
And this right here is the breakdown because the goal post has shifted. Before hand it was about people being able to participate in TFOs and not get hit with an AFK penalty forced on them by high DPS players. It was pointed out with parse data that in almost all cases no actual high DPS players are present and people are getting to play the TFOs and benefit from them aka participate. This is further backed up by many people admitting they weren't getting hit with an AFK penalty. So people were arguing about something that by their own admission rarely if ever happens. Once this was pointed out the goal post shifted to you don't feel like you got to participate enough even though the game says you did.
Why should others be responsible for your subjective idea of fun? This is why I've asked you several times to define what you consider to have participated enough so the point can be debated properly.
Except you are though. You basically said in plain black and white above that I would be taking content away from people by existing on the same map as them. And this entire thread has been about wanting nerfs to people like myself or others because of your subjective opinion that you're not having fun. Again you're allowed to say you're not having fun, and your fun is not wrong. Likewise my fun isn't wrong either. It shifted from people not getting to participate to people's subjective opinions on what is fun or not.
If your goal is to allow all people to play with each other as you try to claim, then that's already possible right now the way things are setup. Lower DPS people and higher DPS people can join groups and play together without any changes needing to be made. If I wanted to take my 150k DPS tank build into a run with a new guy/gal that just started the game today and teach them the ropes I can do that. There is also already a scaling system in place for story modes for me to match their level that will scale me down to the highest available stats for their level while still affording me an advantage of having played longer. So if your goal is really to have all people be able to play together then congratulations you're already there.
Yet by virtue of the rest of your post that doesn't seem to be what you want. You say that your solution would "level the playing field without hindering anyone's fun", but ignore the fact that it requires my fun of being able to do higher DPS be restricted in favor of your fun. I offered to sit down with you and help you move some things around in your build to help you get to targets faster and be able to get more shots off so you can have that fun. I offered to hand you a full set of mk xv ultra rare gear, including putting you into a different cstore ship with a coupon I have if that's what it took. Instead of accepting that offer, you declined and have continued to insist that my fun and the fun of other people like me be restricted in favor of yours. Yet somehow you can't see why you're getting pushback? Respectfully dude I have to question if you really don't see it or if you're just deliberately ignoring it.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Just to echo protoneous I found when testing in the Breach Event my DPS had very little to do with build. I would say between 80% to 90% of DPS is player knowledge and player skill not gear. To give an example I was proactive and was reacting to the pattern the subcores spawn in and positioned myself ready with skills ready. While the other players where waiting for the subcore to appear then fly over often with random skills triggering with no thought about what's coming up next. The other players didn't seem to like it if I hold back and waited for them to fly over.
Which leads me onto why it’s not that simple because you are more likely to upset other players by holding back. When I was holding back in the Breach Event from what I could tell not one single player appreciated me holding back. On the other hand, you risk getting comments like “why are you holding back” “why are you not contributing” ”why are you making the TFO take longer” “I am going to report you for not taking part” a long while back I was even accused of being AFK and the player said they would report me to a DM.
To be honest the impression I got was most player well into the 80%+ figure just did not care either way if you hold back or went full DPS. If you did hold back you where more likely to upset players then find one that a appreciated it.
Oh, and just so you know, Darkblade - it's become painfully clear that discussing this with you is pointless, so I shan't any further. I will just try to ask you to understand how telling someone not to even try running TFOs on Normal until they have more time to dedicate to "git gud" is indeed telling them how to play, and what they're not "allowed" to do.
Now you're just repeating your argument: "Others in my guild have found the time, therefore so can she." I will not go there. If Annemarie says she has only 30 minutes available per day, then I will simply take that at face value. Doing anything else is presumptuous.
The problem is the apparent Elite interlopers at Normal, causing her to get an AFK-Penalty (her words).
N.B. I'm not entirely convinced this is happening a lot, btw. I've never had it occur in my Advanced runs (I'm sure it *did* happen, but not enough for me to really notice, or affect me adversely). Looks to be more of an issue with Normal. And that makes sense, as Normal has no underlimit, as it were (housing utter newbies to ppl say, doing 20k). Still, she says it occurs, so I see no reason to disbelieve her.
How can you tell, from the parse data, no one was given an AFK-Penalty?
A more apt analogy would be to take a Junior Leage Rugby team: no one's getting injured at their own level, until a 'ringer' on the other team steps in, and turns out to be a Major League, professional player: then, and only then, do the players in JL get injured.
Agreed, btw. Can't fault an Elite player for entering a lower Tier TFO, when said TFO is simply not available at Elite. That would be a good place to start for Cryptic.