I think that's kind of dismissive, considering how much discussion has been had on this topic.
It's absolutely dismissive, yes.
This topic has been broached many times, most of them by you. None of the points you have made or the "solutions" you have suggested are anything that hasn't been proposed and shot down many times before.
The topic is dismissed because again, the problem is one with you personally and it's not the rest of our jobs to alter our play style to accommodate you. I know this sounds like I am being snarky, I am not. I am not saying it in a mean way, but I really think you need to consider the view point of everyone else playing the game. You have brought this up before, and every time you do, it's about you and what YOU think is fun.
I am saying you're not the only one, you're one of many. And most of us don't share your opinion that it's a problem so therefore no solution is required.
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.. Or the one."
I think that's kind of dismissive, considering how much discussion has been had on this topic.
The issue is that people have achieved so much dps that it trivializes content and allows them to essentially take content away from others. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue for many.
Again dude this is where I call shenanigans. How are people having content taken away from them? What content are people unable to join and get rewards from? Who is preventing them from being able to participate? Because those words don't mean what you think they do in the context you've used them. By people's own admission they are seeing rewards from the content which means that they are getting to experience the content and nothing has been taken from them. The issue is people not liking how much they got to participate and wishing they could have done more. Wishing they could have done more does not equate to them never getting to play. The run is still succeeding and those people are getting rewards for their time and contributions to the team, meaning they are getting to partake in the content so again I fail to see an issue here.
If people don't like how much they were able to participate and wish they could have had greater participation, fair enough, they're entitled to that viewpoint and opinion. If they want to participate more, then what are they doing on their end first and foremost to ensure they have the greatest chance to participate in the run? Are they making sure their ship has enough speed to keep up with the group? Are they making sure they have enough damage to avoid the AFK penalty? Are they speaking up if they don't know what to do in a particular TFO? By the admission of some people in here they have no desire to change their builds or anything they're doing because they're comfortable where they are. Which if they're comfortable where they are and don't want to change, fair enough, nothing is going to force them to change. However if someone isn't satisfied with the level of participation they have now, yet refuse to change anything to help themselves, why should I have to change anything on my end to accommodate them?
As I asked before dude, what level of participation do you want? What do you consider having participated enough and what do you consider carrying your own weight? Because so far, I've yet to really see you quantify this. You say you don't want content being taken away from people, yet by the standard of logic you're using here, you're robbing people like me of content by arguing for DPS limits and nerfing builds and so on even though by your own admission you are getting rewards and are able to participate.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Honestly, I think the gimmick in the new TFO works for leveling the field. There are three widely-separated avenues of attack, each of which has multiple targets along it, so nobody can kill everything themselves and leave anyone else looking down the barrel of an AFK - it is literally not possible for one ship to take out, say, all six fields of engine nodules and their defending squadrons before even the slowest of other players can get some shots in. (I used one of my new Deltas to verify - he's level 11, and as I've indicated previously I'm not exactly top-tier in performance, but even he managed to blow up a couple of enemy ships and contribute to the other goals.)
Sadly, it's not easily adaptable to older TFOs, but something like this going forward might help.
The issue is that people have achieved so much dps that it trivializes content and allows them to essentially take content away from others. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue for many.
My thinking with my last suggestion was that it would allow people who want greater difficulty to have it, without having to make content that is inaccessible to others.
The issue is a lack of higher difficulty, challenging content designed for higher performing builds and players. Again, everyone regardless of level is forced into Normal difficulty for event content. Of course the content is going to be trivial for players with top tier ships equipped with top tier gear. Normal difficulty content is not designed for or balanced for it.
There was an opinion offered back on page 6 that suggested the two main contributors to player performance were piloting and ability actuation. I certainly agree with this theory. Gear plays a smaller part.
Hopefully not too many people read this so word of the recipe's secret ingredients don't get out
I think that's kind of dismissive, considering how much discussion has been had on this topic.
The issue is that people have achieved so much dps that it trivializes content and allows them to essentially take content away from others. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue for many.
Again dude this is where I call shenanigans. How are people having content taken away from them?
in my opinion, and i will use TFOs for the example. SuperDPSguy queues for normal mode TFO. someone like me is on that team, and it's over before I can even engage an enemy. I get the 30 minute afk penalty. You don't think I'm being denied content to play? To extend the denial, maybe I'm a single parent who only gets to play a half hour to an hour.
so I
1. can't play the TFO in the time I have to play
2. cannot get the advancement if it's a grind or endeavor
3. can't learn the dang TFO if it's over in 30 seconds.
There was an opinion offered back on page 6 that suggested the two main contributors to player performance were piloting and ability actuation. I certainly agree with this theory. Gear plays a smaller part.
I offered the exact same theory, but then on page 5. Knowing what to press when is key. And it's a lot more difficult than it sounds, trying to squeeze those in, inbeteen timecycles (especially when torps, with other timecycles than beams, are in the mix too). I, for one, am having dismal results with it. And somewhere along the line I need to keep out an eye on the actual field too. I make up for my shortcomings in that area a bit with stellar gear, but that only takes you so far (which is really not all that far).
There is no secret ingredient.. it's just plain old noodle soup.
I think that's kind of dismissive, considering how much discussion has been had on this topic.
The issue is that people have achieved so much dps that it trivializes content and allows them to essentially take content away from others. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue for many.
Again dude this is where I call shenanigans. How are people having content taken away from them?
in my opinion, and i will use TFOs for the example. SuperDPSguy queues for normal mode TFO. someone like me is on that team, and it's over before I can even engage an enemy. I get the 30 minute afk penalty. You don't think I'm being denied content to play? To extend the denial, maybe I'm a single parent who only gets to play a half hour to an hour.
so I
1. can't play the TFO in the time I have to play
2. cannot get the advancement if it's a grind or endeavor
3. can't learn the dang TFO if it's over in 30 seconds.
Seems like content denial to me
Odd, I recall you playing way above Normal. But even in a hypothetical situation, I heard you need to do below 2% of the total dmg output to incur an AFK Penalty. So, if all other 4 players do 400K each, one would have to do below 8K, which is a feat, all by itself (a single pet will likely do more).
The situation gets different, though, when you literally get no shot in edge-wise. I suppose on Normal this can happen, where players two levels above you have joined your team.
in my opinion, and i will use TFOs for the example. SuperDPSguy queues for normal mode TFO. someone like me is on that team, and it's over before I can even engage an enemy. I get the 30 minute afk penalty. You don't think I'm being denied content to play? To extend the denial, maybe I'm a single parent who only gets to play a half hour to an hour.
so I
1. can't play the TFO in the time I have to play
2. cannot get the advancement if it's a grind or endeavor
3. can't learn the dang TFO if it's over in 30 seconds.
Seems like content denial to me
As I said prior the last time someone brought this example up, this tells me a few things are occurring here. If everyone is getting there before you and everything is dead before you can even arrive, that tells me you're using a ship that's too slow to keep up with the group. If you're getting hit with an AFK penalty on top of that, this tells me you did less than 1% of the damage for the entirety of the run. So first thing that's in order, increase the speed of your ship so you can keep up with the group. Second thing, make sure you have a basic cohesive build that's capable of doing a decent amount of damage once you arrive. This is easily accomplished using the basic items they hand out like candy in the story missions. If someone is not willing to change their setup to help themselves, why should anyone else on the team have to change to accommodate them?
In regards to the single parent only playing an hour or half hour a day, that excuse is only valid for so much and after awhile becomes purely that, an excuse. Alot of people in my fleet are either former/active military and/or police of some type, several with young kids. The ones who aren't military or police are going to school or working jobs of their own, as I'm assuming said hypothetical person would also have a job of some type to provide for their family. Sometimes the guys in my fleet are only able to be around for an hour before they dip, sometimes they're able to get on for a few hours a day, and sometimes we won't see them for several days. The oldest guy in our fleet is in his mid to late 50s and has a mild touch of schizophrenia. So you're not the only one who has things going on in their lives. Just as it's not your job to accommodate them, it's not their job to accommodate you.
If you're playing 30 minutes or 1 hour a day that gives you either 3.5 hours or 7 hours of playtime per week to get things for your character. That's plenty of time to run some story missions to get some gear. If you can run story missions to level your toon in the first place, you can rerun those story missions to get gear at max level. You can also go through the battlezones to earn marks and dilithium. If you do the daily quests in the Dyson BZ and tag even just one of the Rex spawns, you will get enough to cap out that toon on dilithium for the day, or be just shy of capping out, not to mention the marks and elite marks that go with it. All of that should take about 20 minutes. If you cap out for 7 days, that's 56k dilithium you can throw at things on just one single toon. If you're having trouble with certain story missions, you can find people who would be willing to help you if you just ask. You're only as helpless in this game as you choose to be. Most TFOs come with briefings these days that tell you what to do and have enforced waiting windows for you to read them. If you choose not to read the briefings, that's on you and not the team.
Earlier in this thread I had posted numbers from an ISA I had been grouped into with a couple of friends. The entirety of the run lasted 72 seconds. Top guy was doing 262k, then 170k, 80k, 35k, and 27k. I was the one doing 35k on an alt. In total the team dished out around 40.6m damage over the course of the run. To avoid an AFK penalty someone would've needed to do 406,000 damage. Not 406k DPS, but 406k total damage at a 1% AFK penalty. This means a minimum of 5.6k DPS was required to avoid an AFK penalty. This is easily achievable using all mk xii very rare gear you get from the story missions without ever having to touch fleet equipment, lobi gear or the like. If you double the duration of the run from 72 seconds to 144 seconds, then the required DPS is cut in half to 2.3k DPS. For the record, the lowest guy in there was at 4.6% of the total damage and was never in any danger of an AFK penalty. Looking at the damage curve all of us were able to spike our damage initially to around 3 times what we can normally sustain.
Now take an average team of players doing between 15k-30k each. Let's assume you have a team of 5 people doing 20k each normally. That is a combined DPS of 100k right out of the gate. Now if you assume each person is able to spike their damage to 3x what they would normally do, that jumps the combined DPS of the team from 100k to 300k. I don't need to tell you that things in normal will melt under that kind of pressure very fast. Now if we assume our 5th guy has an internet problem and lags behind, that's a combined DPS of 80k normally and spike DPS of 240k from the rest of his team. What you're seeing isn't some super DPS guy but the illusion of it. And unless you're actually parsing the run, you have no way of knowing if you're seeing the combined might of your team, or an uber DPS guy.
If you're getting rewards as most people have said, then you're not getting an AFK penalty and you are in fact getting to participate, you just don't like how much you got to participate. If you're actually getting an AFK penalty, then you have more to worry about than you think. Either way you're not being denied content as you are able to experience it. You just don't like the level you got to participate. So aside from a rare handful of exceptions to the rule, what evidence do you have to show there is this mass AFKing of people and denial of content?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
As I said prior the last time someone brought this example up, this tells me a few things are occurring here. If everyone is getting there before you and everything is dead before you can even arrive, that tells me you're using a ship that's too slow to keep up with the group. If you're getting hit with an AFK penalty on top of that, this tells me you did less than 1% of the damage for the entirety of the run. So first thing that's in order, increase the speed of your ship so you can keep up with the group.
Not necessarily. In Cure Space Advanced (CSA), for instance, I usually fly to the right-most Cube... cloaked. I come out with a decent, fully buffed Alpha-strike; but it still takes me ca. 30 secs to kill the entire group (the price of not being an Elite player). When I then turn around, the other Cubes are sometimes already gone. Just occured to me, though, that this is not a matter of me flying too slowly per se, but is likely precisely how it should be: it simply means the ppl working on the other Cubes finished them off in about the same time I did. In fact, had there been Cubes left for me to go work on, it means others needed more time than me. (All round and about, of course, as often multiple ppl are working a single Cube).
Tl;dr: at times finding others have already done stuff is not necessarily a measure of failure on my part, but often just means ppl have (unwittingly, perhaps) divided the tasks more-or-less equally, which is a good thing.
So you're not the only one who has things going on in their lives. Just as it's not your job to accommodate them, it's not their job to accommodate you.
I honestly got the impression Annemarie was merely giving an example with the 'single mother.' But even if she wasn't, it was still a valid point: sometimes ppl only have like half an hour before dinner or something.
Not necessarily. In Cure Space Advanced (CSA), for instance, I usually fly to the right-most Cube... cloaked. I come out with a decent, fully buffed Alpha-strike; but it still takes me ca. 30 secs to kill the entire group (the price of not being an Elite player). When I then turn around, the other Cubes are sometimes already gone. Just occured to me, though, that this is not a matter of me flying too slowly per se, but is likely precisely how it should be: it simply means the ppl working on the other Cubes finished them off in about the same time I did. In fact, had there been Cubes left for me to go work on, it means others needed more time than me. (All round and about, of course, as often multiple ppl are working a single Cube).
Tl;dr: at times finding others have already done stuff is not necessarily a measure of failure on my part, but often just means ppl have (unwittingly, perhaps) divided the tasks more-or-less equally, which is a good thing.
In the example annemarie gave, unfortunately it is absolutely a failure on the part of the person receiving the AFK penalty and I will tell you why. You can tell alot about the hypothetical by the inferences made in constructing it. While I get what you're going for with your example, your example and annemarie's aren't compatible. In your example, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to do and have contributed to the team and participated. Even if people want to debate the best strategy for that particular TFO, you still rolled with the most commonly accepted tactic. You would never have to worry about an AFK penalty per your example. By virtue of your description of said example, this tells me that you did everything you could on your end to ensure you had the best chance to participate. You brought a ship that was fast enough to keep up with the group since you all arrived at your respective cubes at the same time, and you brought a ship that had a basic cohesive build that can avoid the AFK penalty. Thus you are contributing and getting rewards.
Annemarie's example by virtue of how it's described tells me two things are happening. If the other 4 people are arriving ahead of the 5th person, that tells me automatically that the 5th person who arrived late is using a build/ship that is slower than the other 4 people in the run and not capable of keeping up. If said person is getting an AFK penalty on top of everything else, then it also tells me that person did less than 1% of the damage in the run and is using a build that is most likely not cohesive and is probably all over the place. At the very least we know that it needs work. I reiterated the above ISA example because it illustrates the point perfectly. Even with several people in there who would've qualified as high DPS people, none were given an AFK penalty. To avoid said AFK penalty a person would've only needed to do 5.6k DPS in the course of that 72 second run. If you doubled that run to 144 seconds, which is just shy of 2.5 minutes, it would've only taken 2.3k DPS to avoid a penalty. If someone gets an AFK penalty, that's something put in place by Cryptic itself telling that person they were not up to snuff and need to up their game. Again true AFK penalties should be extremely rare and if someone is hitting them all the time, then something is bad wrong.
I honestly got the impression Annemarie was merely giving an example with the 'single mother.' But even if she wasn't, it was still a valid point: sometimes ppl only have like half an hour before dinner or something.
Point still stands whether it was literal or an example. The other 4 people in that run have lives as well and it's not their job to construct the entirety of their gameplay around accommodating that 5th person and vice versa. Some days I could play 12+ hours if I chose to (seriously don't actually do that folks it's not healthy). Other days I may only have 30 minutes to play, and some days I may not get to play at all.
If someone is that hard pressed for time that they're having to rush and guarantee everything goes perfect to keep things from going squirrely, then imo they shouldn't be in the game to start with. They should wait until they have more time so they can slow down and enjoy the game, or utilize one of the other methods for getting things in game. TFO mark farming isn't the only way to get stuff. If they're that pressed for time as the example indicates, so long as they're getting marks and aren't actually getting an AFK penalty, then I would think they would appreciate the run being ended quickly so they can move on to the next one in the time they have left. Yet that's what is being protested, which is an oxymoronic approach. If that person is having issues with TFOs, then they should step back and get some more upgrades and/or experience before returning. Otherwise they're just slamming their heads against a wall. The "I've only got x amount of time and can't play that much" is only valid for so much before it becomes an excuse for mediocrity and a crutch for people. If you're that pressed for time, handle your real life business first before you think about playing STO.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
@darkbladejk I have no intention of quoting your wall of text answers again, but your reply has distilled down to your opinion, as I see it. "git Gud" and if you can't play at MY level, don't play. that's a VERY sad attitude from someone who is supposedly a neutral representative of the game. I am exceptrionally appalled at your inference that if you cannot devote multiple hours to the game that you are not worthy, and should not play AT ALL.
peopler like ytou are the EXACT reason I do not play TFOs, and i hate it when i look at the game and think, wow, do i blow a couple days worth of dilithium on rerolling the endeavor(s) or just not do them (again) just like the current grind. I have the options of the patrols or the episode to advance, because i KNOW the TFOs will be a bad experience. Yes I get it's an MMO, but I have experienced enough to play it like a single player and avoid the other players as much as possible.
@darkbladejk I have no intention of quoting your wall of text answers again, but your reply has distilled down to your opinion, as I see it. "git Gud" and if you can't play at MY level, don't play. that's a VERY sad attitude from someone who is supposedly a neutral representative of the game. I am exceptrionally appalled at your inference that if you cannot devote multiple hours to the game that you are not worthy, and should not play AT ALL.
peopler like ytou are the EXACT reason I do not play TFOs, and i hate it when i look at the game and think, wow, do i blow a couple days worth of dilithium on rerolling the endeavor(s) or just not do them (again) just like the current grind. I have the options of the patrols or the episode to advance, because i KNOW the TFOs will be a bad experience. Yes I get it's an MMO, but I have experienced enough to play it like a single player and avoid the other players as much as possible.
That’s not fair on Darkbladejk as they are right. When we dived into the data it turned out the vast majority if not 99% of people that got hit with AFK got AFK because of a core problem with there build or piloting not because of other players. Darkbladejk is not saying get gud up to their level.
Darkbladejk is saying if you have the bare minimum build competence with the bare minimum of piloting skill you won’t get hit by AFK accept from some extremely rare outliner cases which do not happen often. At which point its reasonable to point out someone who is often getting hit with AFK needs to improve their build and/or piloting instead of falsely blaming other players as they don't want to look at what they are doing wrong.
As per the data shown early in the thread the UberDPSers are being blamed but are nearly always not the ones causing problems and in fact are often helping. If you are being hit with AFK then you are doing ground level DPS in space or another way to put it you are doing less DPS then 1 fighter out of 12 from 1 hangar bay. Which is not the fault of the UberDPSers or other players.
If you are doing that low DPS for example less then 400k total damage we shouldn’t be blaming everyone else and instead looking at what is going wrong with that players core build and piloting. I don't like the words "git Gud" but essentially that is what is needed. Not even get good. Just get to a bare minimum level of competency for ship build and piloting and you wont get AFK.
and again, a Play my way or don't play comment. and again, why I will NEVER play TFOs. until your ilk realise you are the oxic elements in the game, nothing will improve
@darkbladejk I have no intention of quoting your wall of text answers again, but your reply has distilled down to your opinion, as I see it. "git Gud" and if you can't play at MY level, don't play. that's a VERY sad attitude from someone who is supposedly a neutral representative of the game. I am exceptrionally appalled at your inference that if you cannot devote multiple hours to the game that you are not worthy, and should not play AT ALL.
peopler like ytou are the EXACT reason I do not play TFOs, and i hate it when i look at the game and think, wow, do i blow a couple days worth of dilithium on rerolling the endeavor(s) or just not do them (again) just like the current grind. I have the options of the patrols or the episode to advance, because i KNOW the TFOs will be a bad experience. Yes I get it's an MMO, but I have experienced enough to play it like a single player and avoid the other players as much as possible.
That’s not fair on Darkbladejk as they are right. When we dived into the data it turned out the vast majority if not 99% of people that got hit with AFK got AFK because of a core problem with there build or piloting not because of other players. Darkbladejk is not saying get gud up to their level.
Darkbladejk is saying if you have the bare minimum build competence with the bare minimum of piloting skill you won’t get hit by AFK accept from some extremely rare outliner cases which do not happen often. At which point its reasonable to point out someone who is often getting hit with AFK needs to improve their build and/or piloting instead of falsely blaming other players as they don't want to look at what they are doing wrong.
As per the data shown early in the thread the UberDPSers are being blamed but are nearly always not the ones causing problems and in fact are often helping. If you are being hit with AFK then you are doing ground level DPS in space or another way to put it you are doing less DPS then 1 fighter out of 12 from 1 hangar bay. Which is not the fault of the UberDPSers or other players.
If you are doing that low DPS for example less then 400k total damage we shouldn’t be blaming everyone else and instead looking at what is going wrong with that players core build and piloting. I don't like the words "git Gud" but essentially that is what is needed. Not even get good. Just get to a bare minimum level of competency for ship build and piloting and you wont get AFK.
Can't believe I'm saying this, but here I don't think Darkbladejk is entirely wrong. Often incurring an AFK-Penalty is an endemic issue, and no longer caused by the occasional Elite player stomping on your TFO. Simply put, if you're getting too many AFK-Penalties on Advanced, then you're simply not ready for that level. And then there are only 2 options: either you start playing at a lower level again, or you start improving on your ship/skills, until you can say you successfully mastered the Advanced level (same goes for migrating from Advanced -> Elite, of course).
N.B. Not saying Annemarie is receiving all these AFK-Penalties per se (as I still believe she was just talking hypothetical), but in general, yes, getting 'gud' enough to play at your desired level not only makes sense, but makes your game experience a lot more enjoyable too.
Okay, the problem here is that we've got two extreme positions talking past one another.
The original issue, and one that I have encountered on rare but annoying occasion, is when you're running a Normal TFO and one or two Elite players will queue for it. They come in with overpowered ships and reflexes honed on running that TFO at Elite level a large number of times, wipe everything on the map before those of us with less-powerful ships and who don't know what to do before it even happens can so much as get off a shot, and Normal players wind up eating an AFK because they didn't get to do enough damage to count.
Now, Darkblade and other, who are understandably proud of the time and effort they've put into their builds, hold that the problem here is with the "noobs" who in their view are obstinately refusing to spend the time and money to become Elite. This could be solved with having an Elite option for those TFOs that are part of Events, although as I've pointed out the Leviathan event solves this issue by having things happening simultaneously at such a distance apart that one ship literally cannot dominate the entire battlefield (I was sure happy enough to see one of those Elite players come in and help me wipe a Terran dreadnought that was preventing me from reaching the second set of plasma accelerators in the left lane!).
Meanwhile, Meimetoo would appear to have staked out the position that they don't have to improve at all, and that everyone deserves credit simply for participating (which, sadly, encourages players to actually AFK, a problem I remember encountering years back). This position appears to assume that anyone who isn't running Mark XII whites is "elite", something I can disprove by running anything higher than Normal in my own ships. This causes a knee-jerk emotional reaction in the actually Elite players, who seem to think the entire argument opposing them is this - a single player who manages to go an entire TFO without shooting anything, while everyone else gets on just fine. (This is also a rarity, in my observation; so long as one or two Elites aren't roflstomping the entire field, generally speaking everyone can damage something.)
Meimetoo isn't entirely in the wrong here, either; even Darkblade has admitted to occasionally going into Normal TFOs in order to feel more powerful, not just because an Event requires it. Some Elite players are like that - they've developed those skills and want to show them off, like the shadetree mechanic who knows how to soup up street cars into racers, and insists on demonstrating that skill on the nearest four-lane surface street (had one of those wipe out in the rain about four blocks from my house a couple months ago, almost destroying the memorial set up by the family of the one before him). And like those shadetree mechanics, they don't seem to care that they're ruining things for other people. (On the plus side, at least Elite braggarts aren't putting anyone in any actual physical danger.)
Colonel Marik, on the third hand, isn't making things any clearer with the insistence that there should be some sort of Harrison-Bergeron-esque limitation on the upper end of DPS, something which is impractical at best and potentially damaging to the overall game at worst. (There's a reason the folks putting all the limiters on Bergeron in the novel were the bad guys, after all.)
My personal suggestion at this point is that everyone step back, take a nice cleansing breath, and read the arguments on all sides again, remembering in the process that we're all individuals with our own (sometimes flawed) perceptions. And that "git gud" is not a valid point, as one must have a chance to "git mediocre" first.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think anyone should be telling anyone else for any reason, NOT to play until they have "more time" to devote to gaming. One cannot sit in judgment of someone else's life like that. Perhaps that 30 minutes IS all the time they had allocated for gaming. Maybe that is due to a hectic schedule that doesn't have a lot of wiggle room. Or perhaps real life is just more interesting to them, and gaming not as important and therefore getting less time allocated to it. Whatever the circumstances or reasons, their gaming time is their gaming time, and no one should dictate to them when and how they spend it. So, let's try to be more understanding, ok? /soapbox
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Meanwhile, Meimetoo would appear to have staked out the position that they don't have to improve at all, and that everyone deserves credit simply for participating (which, sadly, encourages players to actually AFK, a problem I remember encountering years back). This position appears to assume that anyone who isn't running Mark XII whites is "elite", something I can disprove by running anything higher than Normal in my own ships. This causes a knee-jerk emotional reaction in the actually Elite players, who seem to think the entire argument opposing them is this - a single player who manages to go an entire TFO without shooting anything, while everyone else gets on just fine. (This is also a rarity, in my observation; so long as one or two Elites aren't roflstomping the entire field, generally speaking everyone can damage something.)
Meanwhile, Meimetoo has never held such position. I have mainly argued 2 things. The first being, that this game has 3 distinct levels, and that people shouldn't be forced to improve beyond the level they're comfortable playing at. And secondly -- and in my last post even -- I have stated that one should improve at least far enough to not incur an AFK-Penalty too often at one's own chosen level.
Everything else you impute, like me allegedly saying "that anyone who isn't running Mark XII whites is Elite," is, of course, nowhere near a position I've ever taken, thank you.
I think that's kind of dismissive, considering how much discussion has been had on this topic.
The issue is that people have achieved so much dps that it trivializes content and allows them to essentially take content away from others. Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue for many.
Again dude this is where I call shenanigans. How are people having content taken away from them? What content are people unable to join and get rewards from? Who is preventing them from being able to participate? Because those words don't mean what you think they do in the context you've used them. By people's own admission they are seeing rewards from the content which means that they are getting to experience the content and nothing has been taken from them. The issue is people not liking how much they got to participate and wishing they could have done more. Wishing they could have done more does not equate to them never getting to play. The run is still succeeding and those people are getting rewards for their time and contributions to the team, meaning they are getting to partake in the content so again I fail to see an issue here.
If people don't like how much they were able to participate and wish they could have had greater participation, fair enough, they're entitled to that viewpoint and opinion. If they want to participate more, then what are they doing on their end first and foremost to ensure they have the greatest chance to participate in the run? Are they making sure their ship has enough speed to keep up with the group? Are they making sure they have enough damage to avoid the AFK penalty? Are they speaking up if they don't know what to do in a particular TFO? By the admission of some people in here they have no desire to change their builds or anything they're doing because they're comfortable where they are. Which if they're comfortable where they are and don't want to change, fair enough, nothing is going to force them to change. However if someone isn't satisfied with the level of participation they have now, yet refuse to change anything to help themselves, why should I have to change anything on my end to accommodate them?
As I asked before dude, what level of participation do you want? What do you consider having participated enough and what do you consider carrying your own weight? Because so far, I've yet to really see you quantify this. You say you don't want content being taken away from people, yet by the standard of logic you're using here, you're robbing people like me of content by arguing for DPS limits and nerfing builds and so on even though by your own admission you are getting rewards and are able to participate.
Alot of people, a lot of my friends no longer play due to what I call the warframe effect.
its not really the players fault, but being new to the game and doing tfos for the first time, with insanely geared players where you don't get to do much because the better players blow everything up is not a fun experience.
And why its called warframe experience, is because new warframe players simply cannot keep up with veteran players who can clear the entire mission before the player even gets there.
its mitigated some in sto with time and gearing. But also there is a legit skill ceiling for some people, or age/reflexes. And expecting them to "git gud" really doesn't fix anything.
Is there a fix cryptic could reasonably implement? Unless they wanna create a higher tier difficulty to challenge veterans? likely not. This is primarily a power creep issue from years of hawking lootcrate gear onto us.
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
Preventing Elite players from entering lower Tier TFO's would solve that, but has the major drawback of literally locking ppl out of content: the very thing some ppl are decrying. So, I would not propose that, but still think it's overall unsportsmanlike for an Elite player to enter a Normal TFO, whether it's strictly verboten or not.
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
Event content generally only comes in Normal difficulty unfortunately, so higher performing players have no other option.
I see a disconnect in the thread. part of the arguments are Elite players "invading" normal level content and wiping the floor with casual/lower end players, which I believe @annemarie30 is saying. Others are saying if you are a casual/low level player complaining about getting afk/wiped in Advanced/elite content, you need to improve. Both are valid comments.
what would fix the first argument is to make ALL content available at at least normal and Advanced. i do not know which is played more, advanced or elite. Whichever level has the biggest population should be given priority.
The second argument is simple enough. the game needs to parse your ability to perform at that level. If you can't you don't get to play. simple. You cannot reasonably expect to play in the majors when you are at best high school JV.
so instead of screaming and posting walls of text, how about suggestions to fix it?
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It's absolutely dismissive, yes.
This topic has been broached many times, most of them by you. None of the points you have made or the "solutions" you have suggested are anything that hasn't been proposed and shot down many times before.
The topic is dismissed because again, the problem is one with you personally and it's not the rest of our jobs to alter our play style to accommodate you. I know this sounds like I am being snarky, I am not. I am not saying it in a mean way, but I really think you need to consider the view point of everyone else playing the game. You have brought this up before, and every time you do, it's about you and what YOU think is fun.
I am saying you're not the only one, you're one of many. And most of us don't share your opinion that it's a problem so therefore no solution is required.
"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.. Or the one."
Again dude this is where I call shenanigans. How are people having content taken away from them? What content are people unable to join and get rewards from? Who is preventing them from being able to participate? Because those words don't mean what you think they do in the context you've used them. By people's own admission they are seeing rewards from the content which means that they are getting to experience the content and nothing has been taken from them. The issue is people not liking how much they got to participate and wishing they could have done more. Wishing they could have done more does not equate to them never getting to play. The run is still succeeding and those people are getting rewards for their time and contributions to the team, meaning they are getting to partake in the content so again I fail to see an issue here.
If people don't like how much they were able to participate and wish they could have had greater participation, fair enough, they're entitled to that viewpoint and opinion. If they want to participate more, then what are they doing on their end first and foremost to ensure they have the greatest chance to participate in the run? Are they making sure their ship has enough speed to keep up with the group? Are they making sure they have enough damage to avoid the AFK penalty? Are they speaking up if they don't know what to do in a particular TFO? By the admission of some people in here they have no desire to change their builds or anything they're doing because they're comfortable where they are. Which if they're comfortable where they are and don't want to change, fair enough, nothing is going to force them to change. However if someone isn't satisfied with the level of participation they have now, yet refuse to change anything to help themselves, why should I have to change anything on my end to accommodate them?
As I asked before dude, what level of participation do you want? What do you consider having participated enough and what do you consider carrying your own weight? Because so far, I've yet to really see you quantify this. You say you don't want content being taken away from people, yet by the standard of logic you're using here, you're robbing people like me of content by arguing for DPS limits and nerfing builds and so on even though by your own admission you are getting rewards and are able to participate.
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Sadly, it's not easily adaptable to older TFOs, but something like this going forward might help.
There was an opinion offered back on page 6 that suggested the two main contributors to player performance were piloting and ability actuation. I certainly agree with this theory. Gear plays a smaller part.
Hopefully not too many people read this so word of the recipe's secret ingredients don't get out
in my opinion, and i will use TFOs for the example. SuperDPSguy queues for normal mode TFO. someone like me is on that team, and it's over before I can even engage an enemy. I get the 30 minute afk penalty. You don't think I'm being denied content to play? To extend the denial, maybe I'm a single parent who only gets to play a half hour to an hour.
so I
1. can't play the TFO in the time I have to play
2. cannot get the advancement if it's a grind or endeavor
3. can't learn the dang TFO if it's over in 30 seconds.
Seems like content denial to me
I offered the exact same theory, but then on page 5.
Odd, I recall you playing way above Normal.
The situation gets different, though, when you literally get no shot in edge-wise. I suppose on Normal this can happen, where players two levels above you have joined your team.
In regards to the single parent only playing an hour or half hour a day, that excuse is only valid for so much and after awhile becomes purely that, an excuse. Alot of people in my fleet are either former/active military and/or police of some type, several with young kids. The ones who aren't military or police are going to school or working jobs of their own, as I'm assuming said hypothetical person would also have a job of some type to provide for their family. Sometimes the guys in my fleet are only able to be around for an hour before they dip, sometimes they're able to get on for a few hours a day, and sometimes we won't see them for several days. The oldest guy in our fleet is in his mid to late 50s and has a mild touch of schizophrenia. So you're not the only one who has things going on in their lives. Just as it's not your job to accommodate them, it's not their job to accommodate you.
If you're playing 30 minutes or 1 hour a day that gives you either 3.5 hours or 7 hours of playtime per week to get things for your character. That's plenty of time to run some story missions to get some gear. If you can run story missions to level your toon in the first place, you can rerun those story missions to get gear at max level. You can also go through the battlezones to earn marks and dilithium. If you do the daily quests in the Dyson BZ and tag even just one of the Rex spawns, you will get enough to cap out that toon on dilithium for the day, or be just shy of capping out, not to mention the marks and elite marks that go with it. All of that should take about 20 minutes. If you cap out for 7 days, that's 56k dilithium you can throw at things on just one single toon. If you're having trouble with certain story missions, you can find people who would be willing to help you if you just ask. You're only as helpless in this game as you choose to be. Most TFOs come with briefings these days that tell you what to do and have enforced waiting windows for you to read them. If you choose not to read the briefings, that's on you and not the team.
Earlier in this thread I had posted numbers from an ISA I had been grouped into with a couple of friends. The entirety of the run lasted 72 seconds. Top guy was doing 262k, then 170k, 80k, 35k, and 27k. I was the one doing 35k on an alt. In total the team dished out around 40.6m damage over the course of the run. To avoid an AFK penalty someone would've needed to do 406,000 damage. Not 406k DPS, but 406k total damage at a 1% AFK penalty. This means a minimum of 5.6k DPS was required to avoid an AFK penalty. This is easily achievable using all mk xii very rare gear you get from the story missions without ever having to touch fleet equipment, lobi gear or the like. If you double the duration of the run from 72 seconds to 144 seconds, then the required DPS is cut in half to 2.3k DPS. For the record, the lowest guy in there was at 4.6% of the total damage and was never in any danger of an AFK penalty. Looking at the damage curve all of us were able to spike our damage initially to around 3 times what we can normally sustain.
Now take an average team of players doing between 15k-30k each. Let's assume you have a team of 5 people doing 20k each normally. That is a combined DPS of 100k right out of the gate. Now if you assume each person is able to spike their damage to 3x what they would normally do, that jumps the combined DPS of the team from 100k to 300k. I don't need to tell you that things in normal will melt under that kind of pressure very fast. Now if we assume our 5th guy has an internet problem and lags behind, that's a combined DPS of 80k normally and spike DPS of 240k from the rest of his team. What you're seeing isn't some super DPS guy but the illusion of it. And unless you're actually parsing the run, you have no way of knowing if you're seeing the combined might of your team, or an uber DPS guy.
If you're getting rewards as most people have said, then you're not getting an AFK penalty and you are in fact getting to participate, you just don't like how much you got to participate. If you're actually getting an AFK penalty, then you have more to worry about than you think. Either way you're not being denied content as you are able to experience it. You just don't like the level you got to participate. So aside from a rare handful of exceptions to the rule, what evidence do you have to show there is this mass AFKing of people and denial of content?
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Not necessarily. In Cure Space Advanced (CSA), for instance, I usually fly to the right-most Cube... cloaked. I come out with a decent, fully buffed Alpha-strike; but it still takes me ca. 30 secs to kill the entire group (the price of not being an Elite player). When I then turn around, the other Cubes are sometimes already gone. Just occured to me, though, that this is not a matter of me flying too slowly per se, but is likely precisely how it should be: it simply means the ppl working on the other Cubes finished them off in about the same time I did. In fact, had there been Cubes left for me to go work on, it means others needed more time than me. (All round and about, of course, as often multiple ppl are working a single Cube).
Tl;dr: at times finding others have already done stuff is not necessarily a measure of failure on my part, but often just means ppl have (unwittingly, perhaps) divided the tasks more-or-less equally, which is a good thing.
I honestly got the impression Annemarie was merely giving an example with the 'single mother.' But even if she wasn't, it was still a valid point: sometimes ppl only have like half an hour before dinner or something.
Annemarie's example by virtue of how it's described tells me two things are happening. If the other 4 people are arriving ahead of the 5th person, that tells me automatically that the 5th person who arrived late is using a build/ship that is slower than the other 4 people in the run and not capable of keeping up. If said person is getting an AFK penalty on top of everything else, then it also tells me that person did less than 1% of the damage in the run and is using a build that is most likely not cohesive and is probably all over the place. At the very least we know that it needs work. I reiterated the above ISA example because it illustrates the point perfectly. Even with several people in there who would've qualified as high DPS people, none were given an AFK penalty. To avoid said AFK penalty a person would've only needed to do 5.6k DPS in the course of that 72 second run. If you doubled that run to 144 seconds, which is just shy of 2.5 minutes, it would've only taken 2.3k DPS to avoid a penalty. If someone gets an AFK penalty, that's something put in place by Cryptic itself telling that person they were not up to snuff and need to up their game. Again true AFK penalties should be extremely rare and if someone is hitting them all the time, then something is bad wrong.
Point still stands whether it was literal or an example. The other 4 people in that run have lives as well and it's not their job to construct the entirety of their gameplay around accommodating that 5th person and vice versa. Some days I could play 12+ hours if I chose to (seriously don't actually do that folks it's not healthy). Other days I may only have 30 minutes to play, and some days I may not get to play at all.
If someone is that hard pressed for time that they're having to rush and guarantee everything goes perfect to keep things from going squirrely, then imo they shouldn't be in the game to start with. They should wait until they have more time so they can slow down and enjoy the game, or utilize one of the other methods for getting things in game. TFO mark farming isn't the only way to get stuff. If they're that pressed for time as the example indicates, so long as they're getting marks and aren't actually getting an AFK penalty, then I would think they would appreciate the run being ended quickly so they can move on to the next one in the time they have left. Yet that's what is being protested, which is an oxymoronic approach. If that person is having issues with TFOs, then they should step back and get some more upgrades and/or experience before returning. Otherwise they're just slamming their heads against a wall. The "I've only got x amount of time and can't play that much" is only valid for so much before it becomes an excuse for mediocrity and a crutch for people. If you're that pressed for time, handle your real life business first before you think about playing STO.
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peopler like ytou are the EXACT reason I do not play TFOs, and i hate it when i look at the game and think, wow, do i blow a couple days worth of dilithium on rerolling the endeavor(s) or just not do them (again) just like the current grind. I have the options of the patrols or the episode to advance, because i KNOW the TFOs will be a bad experience. Yes I get it's an MMO, but I have experienced enough to play it like a single player and avoid the other players as much as possible.
Darkbladejk is saying if you have the bare minimum build competence with the bare minimum of piloting skill you won’t get hit by AFK accept from some extremely rare outliner cases which do not happen often. At which point its reasonable to point out someone who is often getting hit with AFK needs to improve their build and/or piloting instead of falsely blaming other players as they don't want to look at what they are doing wrong.
As per the data shown early in the thread the UberDPSers are being blamed but are nearly always not the ones causing problems and in fact are often helping. If you are being hit with AFK then you are doing ground level DPS in space or another way to put it you are doing less DPS then 1 fighter out of 12 from 1 hangar bay. Which is not the fault of the UberDPSers or other players.
If you are doing that low DPS for example less then 400k total damage we shouldn’t be blaming everyone else and instead looking at what is going wrong with that players core build and piloting. I don't like the words "git Gud" but essentially that is what is needed. Not even get good. Just get to a bare minimum level of competency for ship build and piloting and you wont get AFK.
Can't believe I'm saying this, but here I don't think Darkbladejk is entirely wrong.
N.B. Not saying Annemarie is receiving all these AFK-Penalties per se (as I still believe she was just talking hypothetical), but in general, yes, getting 'gud' enough to play at your desired level not only makes sense, but makes your game experience a lot more enjoyable too.
The original issue, and one that I have encountered on rare but annoying occasion, is when you're running a Normal TFO and one or two Elite players will queue for it. They come in with overpowered ships and reflexes honed on running that TFO at Elite level a large number of times, wipe everything on the map before those of us with less-powerful ships and who don't know what to do before it even happens can so much as get off a shot, and Normal players wind up eating an AFK because they didn't get to do enough damage to count.
Now, Darkblade and other, who are understandably proud of the time and effort they've put into their builds, hold that the problem here is with the "noobs" who in their view are obstinately refusing to spend the time and money to become Elite. This could be solved with having an Elite option for those TFOs that are part of Events, although as I've pointed out the Leviathan event solves this issue by having things happening simultaneously at such a distance apart that one ship literally cannot dominate the entire battlefield (I was sure happy enough to see one of those Elite players come in and help me wipe a Terran dreadnought that was preventing me from reaching the second set of plasma accelerators in the left lane!).
Meanwhile, Meimetoo would appear to have staked out the position that they don't have to improve at all, and that everyone deserves credit simply for participating (which, sadly, encourages players to actually AFK, a problem I remember encountering years back). This position appears to assume that anyone who isn't running Mark XII whites is "elite", something I can disprove by running anything higher than Normal in my own ships. This causes a knee-jerk emotional reaction in the actually Elite players, who seem to think the entire argument opposing them is this - a single player who manages to go an entire TFO without shooting anything, while everyone else gets on just fine. (This is also a rarity, in my observation; so long as one or two Elites aren't roflstomping the entire field, generally speaking everyone can damage something.)
Meimetoo isn't entirely in the wrong here, either; even Darkblade has admitted to occasionally going into Normal TFOs in order to feel more powerful, not just because an Event requires it. Some Elite players are like that - they've developed those skills and want to show them off, like the shadetree mechanic who knows how to soup up street cars into racers, and insists on demonstrating that skill on the nearest four-lane surface street (had one of those wipe out in the rain about four blocks from my house a couple months ago, almost destroying the memorial set up by the family of the one before him). And like those shadetree mechanics, they don't seem to care that they're ruining things for other people. (On the plus side, at least Elite braggarts aren't putting anyone in any actual physical danger.)
Colonel Marik, on the third hand, isn't making things any clearer with the insistence that there should be some sort of Harrison-Bergeron-esque limitation on the upper end of DPS, something which is impractical at best and potentially damaging to the overall game at worst. (There's a reason the folks putting all the limiters on Bergeron in the novel were the bad guys, after all.)
My personal suggestion at this point is that everyone step back, take a nice cleansing breath, and read the arguments on all sides again, remembering in the process that we're all individuals with our own (sometimes flawed) perceptions. And that "git gud" is not a valid point, as one must have a chance to "git mediocre" first.
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And I really wish cryptic would do something about that
Meanwhile, Meimetoo has never held such position.
Everything else you impute, like me allegedly saying "that anyone who isn't running Mark XII whites is Elite," is, of course, nowhere near a position I've ever taken, thank you.
Alot of people, a lot of my friends no longer play due to what I call the warframe effect.
its not really the players fault, but being new to the game and doing tfos for the first time, with insanely geared players where you don't get to do much because the better players blow everything up is not a fun experience.
And why its called warframe experience, is because new warframe players simply cannot keep up with veteran players who can clear the entire mission before the player even gets there.
its mitigated some in sto with time and gearing. But also there is a legit skill ceiling for some people, or age/reflexes. And expecting them to "git gud" really doesn't fix anything.
Is there a fix cryptic could reasonably implement? Unless they wanna create a higher tier difficulty to challenge veterans? likely not. This is primarily a power creep issue from years of hawking lootcrate gear onto us.
but this also begs the question, why are such advanced players queueing for normal instances and not advanced? Leave the normal queues for regular/new players. (exceptions to events that lack any difficulty)
Preventing Elite players from entering lower Tier TFO's would solve that, but has the major drawback of literally locking ppl out of content: the very thing some ppl are decrying. So, I would not propose that, but still think it's overall unsportsmanlike for an Elite player to enter a Normal TFO, whether it's strictly verboten or not.
I know, I said that.
what would fix the first argument is to make ALL content available at at least normal and Advanced. i do not know which is played more, advanced or elite. Whichever level has the biggest population should be given priority.
The second argument is simple enough. the game needs to parse your ability to perform at that level. If you can't you don't get to play. simple. You cannot reasonably expect to play in the majors when you are at best high school JV.
so instead of screaming and posting walls of text, how about suggestions to fix it?